18 replies to this topic

[da Silva]

You got more feel or control with your fingers than your feet, why don´t you either use the accelerator or what I had in my mind braking with your hand?
Certantly there can´t be anything illegal about it.

Today with [more or less] automatic gearboxes you will have your right hand free to do whatever
you want with.

I was thinking about racing with motorcycles and their braking. I think Doohan even used his rear brakes with his thumb.

The F1 drivers could use the hand to control the front brakes and maybe their right/left foot for the rear brakes taking away the brake balance/engine braking problems.

Just a thought, any comments?

[Ross Stonefeld]

My idea race car would have 4 tiny paddles behind the wheel controling the brakes for each wheel. It'd be illegal, probably difficult to implement effectively, but quite fast. Id have more control both in sensitivity and in detail. Inside front locks up over a bump I just release that one brake instead of all 4.

[peetbee]

It sounds like a good idea, an old PC steering wheel I had let you use the 'paddles' behind the wheel as the throttle and accelerator (proportionally) and I found it easier than another wheel that had pedals, of course if you were actually bouncing around a circuit that would be a different matter!
IIRC, Doohan had a thumb operated rear brake because of an accident his leg wasn't able to move to brake properly.
A couple of years ago McLaren had rear brakes that were operated seperately to the front and the FIA banned it as they argued it was some form of traction control. They had a seperate brake pedal so that would certainly support your case that the balance of the car would be easier to control.

[desmo]

I am, I must admit, not abreast of the latest regulations as concern brake systems but if my recollection is correct that power assisted braking is currently banned, this would effectively prohibit finger braking as I assume there would be insufficient strength available to get sufficient line pressures at least with super stiff and light AlBeMet calipers banned.

I think I can more sensitively modulate the front brake on a motorcycle with my hand than I can on a car with a foot operated brake. Why not?

[da Silva]

Yes if it isn´t legal with power assisted braking the whole idea falls apart.

With all the drivers aid´s today it would be good with an drivers input on the
skill to drive really fast.
Braking today is too easy and too short IMO. Anyway with this idea it dosn´t need to be
shorter/longer but only another thing to be skillfull at.
In motorcycle racing you could see some real good racing in just the braking area.

Why is it separated on motorcycles in the first place? Just to be able to lock up either the front or rear [mostly the rear i presume] or because their were wires to begin with?.
In roadracing it´s also an way of driving to slid the bike with the rear before going into an curve.
Could this be adapted into F1? Maybe in the hairpin at Monaco.

Riding my bike I wouldn´t want the brakes to be assisted from an footpedal. I was thinking about if the front wheel was assisted from there too and looking up first.

[naes]

I think this sounds like a great idea, though I agree with desmo in that I'm fairly sure that power assisted brakes are banned in formula one so it wouldn't be workable.

Some time ago I had a similar idea whereby the brake pedal would be pivoted so that it could be tilted towards the four corners and so different amounts of brake pressure applied just like the hand idea. Also I would have had a similar system for the accelerator to provide a different amount of power to either wheel, manual torque steering, which is illegal but never mind.

I also think this could be developed to great effect in WRC cars, if you not only had the paddles controlling brakes but also the amount of torque, or power, applied to each wheel, would that give the driver a lot more control over slides and things and make the cars go faster? sorry i know its a little off topic but its interesting no?

séan

[Ross Stonefeld]

I read once from Hakkinen the Mclaren brakes in 99 had servo assist, is that power? Or do you mean the power to move the brakes since they'd be electronically activated via paddles instead of a physical pedal?

At any rate I think the rules say one brake pedal or something that precludes any sort of brake individuality

[rdrcr]

Nice idea in theory Ross, but I'd think that modulation and coordination would rather difficult. Of course for discussion purposes we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I know that Wayne Rainey uses a finger control brake in his TZ 250 twin Kart. He's pretty adapt at using the MC lever on the handlebar type steering mechanism, the throttle is controlled by a snowmobile tip trigger and he shifts with conventional paddles. The whole set-up works rather well for him.

da Silva, I think that since 70+ % of the braking is done by the fronts and with only slight correcting by the use of the rear brake on a motorcycle coupled with inertia and body motions, having the two separate, aids in the riders decision making process. Note 99% of my riding is done in the dirt so I almost never use the rear, except in very slow going situations and when I'm running out of room really fast.

desmo has got the prohibitory factor stated... no PB in F1. Of course they could just change the rule. Then they could program that too...

[Ben]

Having grappeled with a hand operated clutch on a few occasions I'm dubious about the claim that you can modulate more finely with your hands than your feet.

Ben

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah im not sure one brake paddle would be demonstrably better than the foot one, but if you could give me one for each brake that I could play like some sort of wacked out instrument i think it'd be faster.

We had a guy at Skip Barber who used hand controls after he had an accident and he'd driven the cars with and without and he was actually quicker once he mastered hand controls. If i remember he had like a flexing steering wheel. You had the hub on the column and on either side was like a flexing yoke. basically you pressed forward on the wheel to apply the brakes and the outher handles roted forward slightly. One one hand the grip rolled like a motorcycle throttle and the gear lever was standard but had a spring loaded button on it I think to do a yes/no on the clutch.

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by Ben
Having grappeled with a hand operated clutch on a few occasions I'm dubious about the claim that you can modulate more finely with your hands than your feet.

Ben

Ben, almost every Shifter Kart uses a hand clutch, IMO, they offer a very precise feeling upon take off... though that's the only time we use 'em. And, we're only taking about +/- 400 lbs. of weight. For other racing cars I wouldn't be so sure.

Interesting description of the hand controls Ross. Was that used on one of the Barber cars? Or, was it that guy's set-up on his own car?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Barber. He had the system in the school cars and regional championships as he got back into the swing of things and they let him step up to pro series and do a few races. That was back in the days of the tube framed Mondials so there was a lot more room to play with stuff than in the current Carbon fibre shoebox reynards.

[wawawa]

How about if the brake is foot-operated, but there are hand-controls that operate bleeder valves? That should be in the spirit of the rules - driver input controlling the braking.

[Ben]

Originally posted by rdrcr



Ben, almost every Shifter Kart uses a hand clutch, IMO, they offer a very precise feeling upon take off... though that's the only time we use 'em. And, we're only taking about +/- 400 lbs. of weight. For other racing cars I wouldn't be so sure.

Interesting description of the hand controls Ross. Was that used on one of the Barber cars? Or, was it that guy's set-up on his own car?

On an FSAE car we're talking nearly 300kg with driver and it bogged down very easily. I'm not saying it's not drivable but a foot clutch is definitely easier.

Ben

[schuy]

I believe some cars, especially equipped for handicaps, actually have that possibility.

After Michael Schumacher was injured, it was widely suggested he might do that.

[Yelnats]

Peetbe, I agree with de Silva that hand operated brakes/throttle on a PC steering wheel are marvelously easy to adapt to and provide exquisite sensitivity and speed of response, particulary when instantaneous backing off of the trottle is require to control an incipient spin. I presume this is because of several reasons,

1. The speed of nerve transmission is remarkably slow, I vaugely recall from an old book ( about Moss I belive ) that the nerve transmision speed from hand to brain and back down to the leg occupied over 1/10 th of a second and set a theoretical limit for certain type of driver responses to steering stimuli. The hand being closer to the brain than the foot/leg would benifit in this regard.

2. The lower mass of the fingers/ paddle combo compared to the foot/brake pedal would provide an increased speed of response (try to swat a fly with your foot and you'lll see what I mean).

3. The hand is supplied with masses of nerve endings and is specifically adapted for sensitivity and control in a way that the foot can never match.

Another benifit would be better isolation from the effects of the huge G loadings and bumps that drivers must work very hard to control when keeping their legs positioned over the brake and gas pedals. With the hands firmly braced by the wheel one would expect better isolation from both G loadings and bump displacement and also the inevidable forward/backward sliding of the body in the seatbelt harnesess that is so obvious from in-car video feeds. Some hints from Zanardi have lead me to believe he will be exploring this type of control soon and I whole-heartedly support this type of work on his part.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by rdrcr
Nice idea in theory Ross, but I'd think that modulation and coordination would rather difficult. ...

From a cognitive psychology viewpoint, having two paddles for each hand would probably not work as well as the current setup. There tends to be some crosstalk when trying to perform two different tasks using two different fingers on the same hand. For example, trying to brake with the left index finger while downshifting with the left middle finger could be problematic. Of course, with practice, that might go away.

[Yelnats]

Originally posted by MattPete


From a cognitive psychology viewpoint, having two paddles for each hand would probably not work as well as the current setup. There tends to be some crosstalk when trying to perform two different tasks using two different fingers on the same hand. For example, trying to brake with the left index finger while downshifting with the left middle finger could be problematic. Of course, with practice, that might go away.

If I can get my clumbsy big fingers to individually manipulate 7 or so guitar strings at the same time I'm sure some truly talented people would have no problem with a few paddles.

[da Silva]

Maybe the crasches like Irvines in Hockenheim with his rear wing blew off could have been avoided
with separated front/rear braking?
I seen many times when the rear wing is gone that they usually spins first time they brake.