74 replies to this topic

[amiga1]

We have a lot of debate to who is the best. A lot of opinion is not based on facts.
It was interesting to do cause before I started I had no idea who would "Win" in 93

I thought it would be interesting to see what would happen in 1993 had the dominant Williams not been involved that year. This was the last full year for Senna of course. Both had similar engines – versions of Fords V8. Benetton had a slightly more powerful version till the British GP – then Mclaren & Benetton had the same versions at their disposal. Mclaren probably had better driver aids especially for the start of the season. So here we go.

Williams excluded from the 1993 F1 Championship. In an adminstrative oversight Williams put in their official entry one day late and thus miss the 93 championship.

Bernie is not too worried says it should improve TV ratings after the Mansell whitewash last year.
Prost says it is a conspiracy against him.


Grid PositionPoints
MS,AS

Race Position
MS,AS

Points
MS,AS

South Africa

Grid MS 2nd, AS 1st, Race MS DNF, AS 1st, Points MS 0, AS 10

MS in trying to pass AS collide and MS spins out of the race

Brazil

Grid MS 2nd, AS 1st, Race MS 2nd, AS 1st, Points MS 6, AS 20

European

Grid MS 1st, AS 2nd, Race MS DNF, AS 1st, Points MS 6, AS 30

MS out of race via Accident

Imola

Grid MS 1st, AS 2nd, Race MS 1st, AS DNF, Points MS 16, AS 30

Senna retires from race

Spain

Grid MS 2nd, AS 1st, Race MS 2nd, AS 1st, Points MS 22, AS 40

Monaco

Grid MS 1st, AS 2nd, Race MS DNF, AS 1st, Points MS 22, AS 50

Points lead for Senna now 28 points. MS Retires while leading race

Canada

Grid MS 1st, AS 6th, Race MS 1st, AS DNF, Points MS 32, AS 50

Senna retires from race

France

Grid MS 5th, AS 3rd, Race MS 1st, AS 2nd, Points MS 42, AS 56

Britain

Grid MS 1st, AS 2nd, Race MS 1st, AS 4th, Points MS 52, AS 59

Senna runs out of fuel last lap finishes 4th – Benetton & Mclaren now using same spec engine.

German

Grid MS 1st, AS 2nd, Race MS 1st, AS 3rd, Points MS 62, AS 63

Hungary

Grid MS 1st, AS 2nd, Race MS DNF, AS DNF, Points MS 62, AS 63

Both retire from race

SPA

Grid MS 1st, AS 3rd, Race MS 1st, AS 2nd, Points MS 72, AS 69

Monza

Grid MS 3rd, AS 2nd, Race MS DNF, AS DNF, Points MS 72, AS 69

Senna out with Accident. MS retires from race

Portugal

Grid MS 4th, AS 2nd, Race MS 1st, AS DNF, Points MS 82, AS 69

Pole postion for Mika Hakkinen
Senna retires from race

Japan

Grid MS 3rd, AS 1st, Race MS DNF, AS 1st, Points MS 82, AS 79

MS out of race via Accident

Australia

Grid MS 2nd, AS 1st, Race MS DNF, AS 1st, Points MS 82, AS 89

MS retires from race

Senna wins his fourth Championship !

Some stats

Qualifying was very close 8-8

Average qualifying position MS 1.9375
Average qualifying position AS 2.0625

Race Wins equal with 7 each
Points close only seven in it.

Both had 4 DNF due to the car
MS had 3 accidents vs Senna 1 (Although MS has one accident with senna which put him out of the race)

MS lowest finish was 2nd ! Results 7 Wins and two 2nds !!
Senna owest finish was 3rd Results 7 Wins and two 2nds , 3rd and a fourth!

I am not counting the 4th as he ran out of fuel on the last lap!

To my mind this proves one thing – Schumacher & Senna were very equal in speed and race performances.

[wawawa]

Damn, I miss close Championships... Two whole years since we last had one

[JForce]

Hadn't Senna been in F1 for like 10 years, and this was The Shoes first full season?

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

The US Department of Defense has [had?] these supercomputers which were used to anticipate what the Warsaw Pact armed forces would do in the event of an all-out war (conventional then nuclear) against all NATO forces. Millions of variables were taken into account (weather, equipment, personnell, failures, terrain etc., etc.)
Well, its about time we borrow one of them, input our fav. driver variables and parameters into a specific car, and see how he performs against any other driver/car combo of our choice.

[nja]

Doesn't this scenario favour MS more than it does AS? because by removing the Williams drivers, MS is promoted to a number of wins. but AS can't improve on races already won by him against Williams. Not fair to AS, who was clear the star of 1993 in my book. (although qualifying stat is interesting) MS's season was ok, but i recall being slightly disappointed after the promise of 1992.

[amiga1]

You are correct it does favour MS more than AS on that basis. I would contend the nature of points
10, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 does tend to make the points situation a bit of a winner takes all basis.


But as u point out the Qualifing stats are interesting. Senna is rightly thought of as the best one lap merchant in F1. Yet no great superiority over Schumacher.

[DAS WUNDER KIND]

Originally posted by amiga1
To my mind this proves one thing – Schumacher & Senna were very equal in speed and race performances.

Make assumptions after u consider that MS was just in his second full season.Imature , wishing to win every race and humiliate the rest, losing the "big picture"....
Compare a 93 Senna with a 2002 MS even one of them its no longer with us!

[heki]

Originally posted by JForce
Hadn't Senna been in F1 for like 10 years, and this was The Shoes first full season?

Shoes 2nd full season (3rd overall) and Senna was in F1 for like 9 years ;)

[Vrba]

It is good to see how close they were that season considering how Senna's 1993 season is glorified by many.

Hrvoje

[farQ]

oh great just what we need another pro schumi thread with fantasy results. You guys worship him too much me thinks. Get a life

[mikedeering]

As already stated - removing the Williams does assist MS better - he gets an extra 6 wins out of it. Senna won 5 outright, and only gets an extra 2 wins...

I was actually disappointed with MS in 93 when set against his record in 92.

This alternative championship is close for one reason:

MS was consistent - he always performed at the same level in 93. AS tended to be up and down - he started off well, then as he realised Williams/Prost were simply unbeatable he became disinterested in many races at midseason - culmination of this was Monza where he just drove into the back of Brundle while running on the edge of the top 10.

AS then came back fighting (literally...) for the last 2 races

So overall on points, MS consistent runs AS highs and lows close.

Of course Schumi lovers can dress this up anyway they like - fact is Senna won 5 races, Schumacher 1 - despite having a higher spec engine for half the year. And Schumacher only won in Portugal because Prost knew 2nd was good enough for the title....but I shouldn't be too hard on MS - it was only his second full year - what was Senna doing in his second year? Oh yeah - winning 2 races outright, against the likes of Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Mansell, Rosberg, de Angelis...!

(mikedeering dives for cover)

[amiga1]

oh great just what we need another pro schumi thread with fantasy results. You guys worship him too much me thinks. Get a life [QUOTE]

I'd like to think the information I provided was balanced thx.

My conclusion both drivers equal in ability.

Although the points are not real. Some facts are correct.

In qualifying Senna was faster 8 times vs MS 8x

In the races it shows the difference over a full season was very close.

[grmpreefan]

Originally posted by mikedeering
As already stated - removing the Williams does assist MS better - he gets an extra 6 wins out of it. Senna won 5 outright, and only gets an extra 2 wins...

I was actually disappointed with MS in 93 when set against his record in 92.

Of course Schumi lovers can dress this up anyway they like - fact is Senna won 5 races, Schumacher 1 - despite having a higher spec engine for half the year. And Schumacher only won in Portugal because Prost knew 2nd was good enough for the title....but I shouldn't be too hard on MS - it was only his second full year - what was Senna doing in his second year? Oh yeah - winning 2 races outright, against the likes of Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Mansell, Rosberg, de Angelis...!

(mikedeering dives for cover)

Finally someone puts things into the right perspective.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by grmpreefan


Finally someone puts things into the right perspective.

What perspective is that?

[philhitchings]

Amiga1 what a year what a championship! I know that you were doing some statistical hypothesising but I really enjoyed that. Also glad to see Senna win again (so rightly deserved too), Afterall I am sure that schumi will win a few himself one day ;)

[amiga1]

Originally posted by mikedeering
Of course Schumi lovers can dress this up anyway they like - fact is Senna won 5 races, Schumacher 1 - despite having a higher spec engine for half the year.
(mikedeering dives for cover)

Just for one more play with the stats

If you restart the championship at the British Grand Prix. Both teams on the same spec engine.

Then u get

Qualifying even 4 apiece

Races 4 "wins" to MS ! and 2 to AS

Points even 30 each. Now thats a close championship

Champion decided on countback Schumacher wins

They say their are lies damn lies and then you have statistics

[mikedeering]

This gets even more amusing - you have invented some "hypothetical" statistics to prove hom much faster MS was than AS. This is ridiculous - fact was Senna scored more wins and more points than MS in 1993. Live with it. This stuff happened.

Next you will be saying - If you discount all other cars in 1993 except MS and AS and add 5 minutes to AS race time in all the races where both drivers finished - MS wins every race! Maximum points!In only his 2nd full season against the perceived "master". MS truly is God.

[amiga1]

I'd like to point out I am sure I have never stated anywhere in this thread MS is a God or
MS is faster than AS.

Is that a Freudian slip by yourself ?

So I'd prefer it if u didn't start putting words into my mouth so to speak.

It is pretty clear from the start of the thread it is out course not real. But an interesting look into 1993.

There are Alternitive points championships done for last year - this is something similar.

If u can't take this in good humour then well

Secondly surely the qualifying stats are valid !

[Oho]

Ave !!!

Bullshit, these threads certainly have an agenda and the agenda of this one is to point out how close to Senna and how mavelous Schumcaher was in 93 though the really real results do not support the claim.

- Oho -

[amiga1]

Well my agenda was to put some data out there and base a conclusion on that.

If it showed Senna/Schumacher was truely a god then so be it.

People can make their own minds up if its worth anything. I have no problem with people saying putting the stats in this way is a load of old cobblers.

I will not be going to the FIA looking for a reclassification of standings ;)

To me the data was a surprise, I thought Senna would have been more convincing especially in qualifying.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Oho
...how mavelous Schumcaher was in 93 though the really real results do not support the claim...

So lets see - the stats are warped firstly be removing the Williams cars - which as previously mentioned favours MS more because he finished behind these cars more often than Senna did - its all artificial. Then, when Senna is still shown just to edge it, you narrow the stats down to the second half of the year. Suddenly MS looks marvellous...? When you cherry pick the results in this manner most drivers can be shown to look marvellous.

In MS case it is not necessary either - why can't you be content with every year since 1993 - then (with a few exceptions) MS has been marvellous. Instead, you have to claim MS was out of this world in 1993 as well and come up with some warped method to try and prove he was great. Just let the results speak for themselves - and yes I agree the qualifying stats are interesting and a fair comparison - since these are REAL.

[amiga1]

Instead, you have to claim MS was out of this world in 1993[QUOTE]

Sorry where have I stated this ?

[amiga1]

Mike I think everyone understands it is artifical

[Oho]

Originally posted by mikedeering


So lets see - the stats are warped firstly be removing the Williams cars - which as previously mentioned favours MS more because he finished behind these cars more often than Senna did - its all artificial. Then, when Senna is still shown just to edge it, you narrow the stats down to the second half of the year. Suddenly MS looks marvellous...?

Ave !!!

What would I give not to be so confusing, you missed my point. My intention was to speculate on the motives of the thread starter, not to convey my opinion. Which, for the record, is closer to yours.

Sennas 93 season was transitional, racing on race by race contract. Not really aiming for the title his motivation probably suffered a great deal if not in contention for victory in any particular event, like Mika in 2001. At the end Mika gave him bit of a rude awakening and shook him out of his hibernation.

- Oho -

[amiga1]

Was I too subtle for you when i said

They say their are lies damn lies and then you have statistics

[Oho]

Originally posted by amiga1
Was I too subtle for you when i said

They say their are lies damn lies and then you have statistics

Ave !!

Statistics dont lie, they are just characteristics computed from a sample hopefully independently drawn from much larger or effectively infinite population, people who miss interpret them more or less intentionally lie more or less intentionally. Just to put the record straight.

- Oho -

[Schuting Star]

Originally posted by Oho
Statistics dont lie, they are just characteristics computed from a sample hopefully independently drawn from much larger or effectively infinite population, people who miss interpret them more or less intentionally lie more or less intentionally. Just to put the record straight.

Actually they can, and often do, as the sample is often not representative however carefully chosen.

[grmpreefan]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
What perspective is that?

The perspective that Senna on pure results and statistics ( which is what all MS lovers only care about ) beat MS and was the only legitimate threat over the whole season to the Williams cars in addition despite MS having similar cars for the majority of the year.

The perspective that people use the excuse that it was only MS 2nd year etc.. and Senna was a seasoned proffessional. Senna had much classier field to defeat and much more difficult cars to drive back in his second year and he was straight out of F3.

The perspective that MS only won Portugal because Prost was content to cruise around to win the WDC. In any case Senna would have won hadnt his engine blown up. Granted MS should have won Monaco but for a car failure but those two results balance out and Senna is still way ahead on results.

[farQ]

Who cares the legend passed away and the loser is still around.
I like his latest quote about how he would like to try rally but only if it was safer. This guy needs a skirt
You guys still try and compare a true champion(senna) and one who needs teammates to move over so he can rewrite the record books.Really. Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vrba]

Originally posted by farQ
Who cares the legend passed away and the loser is still around.
I like his latest quote about how he would like to try rally but only if it was safer. This guy needs a skirt
You guys still try and compare a true champion(senna) and one who needs teammates to move over so he can rewrite the record books.Really. Get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Senna became a legend after he passed away and mostly because he passed away.
True champion? Maybe, but pale in comparison to some of the others. I don't mention MS in any context here.

Hrvoje

[mikedeering]

I'd agree Senna is overrated - maybe the wrong word. More viewed as a saint - all everyone recallls now is the good stuff. Fact is, Senna deliberately drove into a rival to settle the WDC. Senna prevented Warwick joining Lotus in 1986. MS is usually criticised for his actions at Jerez and having a subservient team mate - yet these criticisms can equally be applied to Senna...Senna also lost the plot in mid 93 - you can't level that at MS (although many other drivers have lost motivation at points in their careers).

[BRG]

Originally posted by Vrba
Senna became a legend after he passed away and mostly because he passed away?

I am no great Senna fan, but I think he was regarded as legendary well before his death and not just because of it. Although I agree that his premature demise maybe added to the mystique.

Turning to the thread, it doesn't consider ALL the facts. If Williams had been excluded in 1993, that would have left Prost on the sidelines. Wouldn't Renault have co-opted him into the Ligier team in place of Brundle or Blundell, rather than let the French super-star kick his heels for the year? Who knows what Prost might have been able to make of the Ligier-Renault - with the acknowledged best engine of the year, it is unlikely that he would not have become a factor in the WDC. Whilst the Ligier/Prost combination might not have been good enough to beat Senna, it certainly might have been able to finish ahead of the inexperienced Schumacher on enough occasions to influence the WDC result.

Or perhaps McLaren would have taken Prost back on board, rather than Andretti? Or maybe not, with Senna still there!

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by mikedeering
I'd agree Senna is overrated - maybe the wrong word. More viewed as a saint - all everyone recallls now is the good stuff. Fact is, Senna deliberately drove into a rival to settle the WDC. Senna prevented Warwick joining Lotus in 1986. MS is usually criticised for his actions at Jerez and having a subservient team mate - yet these criticisms can equally be applied to Senna...Senna also lost the plot in mid 93 - you can't level that at MS (although many other drivers have lost motivation at points in their careers).

It's amazing that an "unmotivated" driver still manages to win 5 GP's....notably in an inferior car with a customer engine.....don't you agree?

[Zmeej]

Mikedeering

That's quite a performance. Taking these potshots, diving for cover, but then standing back up and firing off bursts of opinion while conscious of potential verbal artillery that could blow you to smithereens.

Actually, I agree with all of your posts except for the first sentence of the last one. Senna isn't overrated, despite the shrinery and mythification after his death, just as Gilles isn't overrated.

Agree with you that amiga's stat exercise favours Michael. Apart from the fact that Senna's lionhearted heroics took the fight directly to awesomely superior machinery, we should also remember that in a Williams-less season, Berger most probably would have done much better as well and given Schumi more to contend with.

I'd bet that if McLaren were the team to beat, they would have approached matters differently and their success ratio would have increased proportionally.

That said, I like these kind of taken-in-isolation exercises, amiga
For one thing, they always arouse considerable discussion and passion.

Disagree with those who said they found Schumacher's 1993 season disappointing. In fact it filled me with dread of the kind excellently described by glorius & victorius at the beginning of his "When did you know" thread.

Michael definitely served notice that he was going to be the man to beat.

Furthermore, just as the Macs took a performance hit after having held onto turbos for two extra years (which helped them smear the opposition in the short term, but put them behind for quite a number of years in the long term), just so Williams were about to face a couple of years of adjustment to driver aids being phased out, and Benetton had a "solution" lurking under their monocoque.

[AndreasF1]

Vbr wrote:

It is good to see how close they were that season considering how Senna's 1993 season is glorified by many.

_____________________________
Vbr, your castle built on imaginations of MS in 1993 will fall apart when you look at the truth. Senna blew MS away in 1993. He had 5 wins and MS had 1 win. Senna had 2 poles, MS had 0 poles. Senna was leading the championship after 5 races. Go and pull the Autocourse review book of 1993 and see what they had to say. IIRC, Senna even came in No1 spot in the Autocourse ranking yet he didnt even win the championship.

[dynamite7]

Very good statistics and well-balanced presentation. Thank you.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by AndreasF1
Vbr wrote:
_____________________________
Vbr, your castle built on imaginations of MS in 1993 will fall apart when you look at the truth. Senna blew MS away in 1993. He had 5 wins and MS had 1 win. Senna had 2 poles, MS had 0 poles. Senna was leading the championship after 5 races. Go and pull the Autocourse review book of 1993 and see what they had to say. IIRC, Senna even came in No1 spot in the Autocourse ranking yet he didnt even win the championship.

I don't deny Senna was better driver in 1993. Everything else would be shameful for him.
However, true difference wasn't as big as perceived.

Hrvoje

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by glorius&victorius



It's amazing that an "unmotivated" driver still manages to win 5 GP's....notably in an inferior car with a customer engine.....don't you agree?

I said he was unmotivated at midseason! And I backed it up with an example (for once... )- Italy.

Unsurprisingly, as the Williams Renault steamroller kicked in, Senna got bored - he seemed content to have frenzed battles with Prost for the opening laps until the Frenchman passed him and then fall back - in 1993 (as for most of his career) his only obsession was beating Prost - on tracks where this was not possible due to the performance differential, he tended to not bother - this combined with the reduced reliability of the McLaren explains why he scored very few points between France and Japan. Only when Mika put pressure on him did he appear to wake up and start racing again (and he certainly did wake up - the performances at Suzuka and Adelaide - espeically qualifying - were quite something).

With regards to the overrated comments - as I stated, that was probably the wrong word - I think others here have already used the correct term - the mythical like status he has achieved is I think manly due to his premature demise, and means many views of the guy gloss over his worst behaviour.

As for this type of exercise - I admit I'm a stats lover (the numbers, so round, so perfectly formed, they have such a quality about them!) and often do such exercises myself. I was surprised by the qualifying stats for 93 for MS-AS

[Zmeej]

Mikedeering

Agree that an early death contributes to forgetting of foibles (apart from Don Capps, who will remember them for you ;) ).

You're certainly right that Ayrton's red mists were Prost-related, but as for a lack of motivation, it's difficult to fault him for it. Confronted with an obviously superior Williams in 1992, Senna said (and I've quoted this ad nauseam) "I'll risk my life for a win, but I won't for second place."

Of course, he did it anyway...

[Dudley]

I like his latest quote about how he would like to try rally but only if it was safer. This guy needs a skirt

I presume you preferred the 1960s when you lost 5 drivers a year?

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Mikedeering

Agree that an early death contributes to forgetting of foibles (apart from Don Capps, who will remember them for you ;) ).

You're certainly right that Ayrton's red mists were Prost-related, but as for a lack of motivation, it's difficult to fault him for it. Confronted with an obviously superior Williams in 1992, Senna said (and I've quoted this ad nauseam) "I'll risk my life for a win, but I won't for second place."

Of course, he did it anyway...

Hadn't heard that quote before - interesting, and not surprising. Senna was only ever concerned with 1st. I agree you can't fault his motivation - he was in a different situation to MS - there were at different stages of careers. Senna had already won 3 titles - 2nd place would hardly interest him - especially if Prost was 1st!

It would be interesting to see how MS would handle being in an uncompetitive car at this stage of his career - would he throw in the towel (who would blame him) or raise his performances to another level once more - I get the impression at the moment he is rather curising (by his standards!) which explains why Rubens has been closer to him in 2002. Lets hope the F2003 is a dog!

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by Zmeej
Mikedeering

Agree that an early death contributes to forgetting of foibles (apart from Don Capps, who will remember them for you ;) ).

You're certainly right that Ayrton's red mists were Prost-related, but as for a lack of motivation, it's difficult to fault him for it. Confronted with an obviously superior Williams in 1992, Senna said (and I've quoted this ad nauseam) "I'll risk my life for a win, but I won't for second place."

Of course, he did it anyway...

True, we shouldn't forget that in 93 Senna's World of F1 was made up by drivers, teams and tracks dating from (before) 1984 till 1993 (93..since we are talking Senna in that year).

At this point the only big names he had competed with were Piquet, Prost, Mansell. In 93 Piquet and Mansell were gone....his "playground-friends" from the ol'neighbourhood were gone. Left was Prost only, one man he had regarded as The One to Beat in F1, plus the one who stole his Williams seat for the 93 season. This was the world he was living in.

There was just no place in his playground for young Michael Schumacher.....who kept screaming "I'm here, I'm here.....please play with me". He just ignored him, and when occasionally challenged by him Senna just cut accross him, making him spin or something like that.

So, as soon as the race started and the the early-lap-scraps between Senna and Prost were over, and Prost faded away in the foreground, that was it for Senna.....there he was sitting alone in his McLaren driving lap after lap waiting for the race to finish. And if Michael would come up behind him, he'd toy with the young puppy.

So there is no reason to blame him for not taking up a serious challenge by Schumacher....he just wanted to play tough & rough with his old buddies. Shame for Schumacher that he was resorted to play with "legendary drivers" such as Damon Hill and David Coulthard, and "not-living-up-to-their-expectations-drivers" like Alesi and Berger.

As for '94....he desperately wanted his 4th title and found himself 20 points behind Michael in Imola. It was going to be a tough year for him for sure!! I don't know if he still had that fire to fight for the world championship. But during his 92 and 93 season all he was dreaming of was a car he could compete with. And now he had that and seeing at how much potential the Williams car showed that year in the hands of Damon, I am sure Senna and the team would have been able to extract the same potential out of this car during the 94 season if he were alive.....so he would have his competitive car for the remainder of the season. But all that's just speculating and saddening we never knew what would have happened....


I guess the same for Schumacher and Senna applies, that they were (are) both passionate drivers and that they deserve(d) all their victories and championships. And if they both made mistakes.... well they're learning each day too....Remind you....us as average readers we don't have a clue what it is like to be in a championship decider...even for them, greats......it's not everyday they find themselves in a split-second moment where they decide who will be champion.

In 89 Senna went for it at the Suzuka chicane and lost it........in 90 he went for it and got it....
In 97 Schumi went for it in Jerez against Jacques, he lost it.......in 94 he went for it and got it.....

[The Rock]

Came across this on the net a while ago,seems fitting to post it now.

http://autosport.net...a-vs-schumi.htm

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by The Rock
Came across this on the net a while ago,seems fitting to post it now.

http://autosport.net...a-vs-schumi.htm

That looks like the most fair comparison I've ever seen between them..thanks Rock
Now I can sleep peacefully again

[Zmeej]

Mikedeering

It would be interesting indeed to see how Schumi would react to a drop in his car's performance (or a sudden jet burst from an opponent's machine). I suspect it would be similar to 1996. However, if Montoya started winning and getting under his skin (as only the Colombian seems to have been able to do), maybe he'd start blowing gaskets like he did in '98.

However, I have more than a sneaking suspicion that the F2003 is going to be another world-beating monster. But as you said, we can always hope.

Methinks Senna's quote had more to do with the sentiment of "I'll fight Prost for 1st and even eat losing, but confronting me with a need to risk my life to beat Patrese or Hill for 2nd place is asking too much for too little a payoff."

Glorius

You're definitely right about Senna's attitude to Schumi in '92, but by '93 IIRC he'd realized that this was a man he'd have to compete with just as hard as he did with Mansell, Prost et alia.

Agree with you that the most saddening thing about the past decade is that we haven't seen epic battles between Schumacher and Senna. Can't dwell on it too much because it's so disheartening.

Could you imagine what it would have been like if Senna had made the move to Ferrari first, and then Schumacher had joined him there? Wow!

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by grmpreefan
The perspective that people use the excuse that it was only MS 2nd year etc.. and Senna was a seasoned proffessional. Senna had much classier field to defeat and much more difficult cars to drive back in his second year and he was straight out of F3.

In Schumacher's 2nd year he had to compete against Prost & Senna, both of whom had a car advantage, how the hell is this any easier than Senna's 2nd year?

[Zmeej]

I'll answer for him.

It's not.

[grmpreefan]

Originally posted by Nikolas Garth
In Schumacher's 2nd year he had to compete against Prost & Senna, both of whom had a car advantage, how the hell is this any easier than Senna's 2nd year?

So Senna had a car advantage in 93 now? How convenient for your arguement.

[FastMex]

Amiga1 and "The Continuous Art of Torturing Out Facts in Order to Provide Us with the Desired Results" (a.k.a. accounting alchemy, creative finance, etc.)...

Amiga1, what you are doing is amusing. But that's about it... What you are doing is exactly what Enron, WorldCom and some other corporations are doing: manipulation of facts and numbers in order to deceive people (cover their holes). MikeDeering is right, just live with the fact that MS cannot be compared to AS .

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by grmpreefan


So Senna had a car advantage in 93 now? How convenient for your arguement.

To better compare the 93 Benetton against the 93 Mclaren, can anyone do a comparison between Patrese and Andretti/Hakinnen? So we might get a better idea which car was better. Mind you that Andretti was a rookie...so if he regulary outpaced Patrese, well then the Mclaren might have been a little more better (?)