89 replies to this topic

[nja]

For those actually interested in the statistics of the two 5xWDCs, Schumacher and Fangio, this from motorsport.com:

QUOTE:

"Fangio And Schumacher -- A respectful comparison

45 years have passed since the late Juan Manuel Fangio won his celebrated 5th Formula One World Championship -- On July 21, 2002 Michael Schumacher equaled Fangio's once thought unreachable record.

Presented below is a "numbers" snapshot of the two driving greats' careers expressed in numbers and percentages. Titans both, different eras, different times, but both undeniably the best of their eras.

Numbers in (parentheses) indicate % of success against attempts.


.................................Fangio.............Schumacher
Years In F1: .................8.......................11

Formula One Races:.....51......................171

Wins:.......................24 (47.05%)..........61 (35.6%)

2ND Place:..............11 (21.15%)...........30 (17.5%)

3RD Place:.................1 (9%)..................16 (9%) Tie

Poles:......................28 (54.9%)............45 (26.3%)

Front Row:..............48 (94.11%)...........84 (49.1%)

Podiums:*...............36 (70.5%)............108 (63.1%)

Total Points:**.......227 (5.4 Ppr***).....815 (4.7 Ppr)


* There were no actual podiums in Fangio's time (top three finishes) but --
** Stats are as of july 21, 2002
*** PPR Points Per Race

We are all very lucky to be seeing Schumacher's great genius behind the
wheel -- he is certainly as dominate in this era as Fangio was in his,
especially so given the rise of "politics" in motorsport -- something Fangio
rarely had to contend with. obviously Fangio was the best of his time and,
perhaps, based on the above numbers, the best of all time. Your conclusion?"

-doug stokes-

END QUOTE

Fangio's front row statistic is amazing. I would be interested to see the percentage of DNFs to assess reliability etc.

[Estwald]

nja, good stats, but a couple of corrections:
poles: Fangio 29- 56.9% Schumacher 46-26.6%
podium or top 3 for Fangio: 35- 68.6% (He only had 10 2nd place finishes)
Schumacher has 173 GP's-winning% is 35.2%
2nd place for Schumacher-31(17.9%)
front row for Schumacher-78(45.1%)
points for Schumacher: 897(5.2/race)- He lost the points for the WDC in 97 but not for his personal stats


Fangio had 7 DNF's - 86.3% finishing rate
Schumacher-- 43 DNF's - 75.1% finishing rate

[molive]

stats, stats... Apples and oranges? anyone?

[Estwald]

Originally posted by molive
stats, stats... Apples and oranges? anyone?

I agree that you can't use them for a comparison of who was better.

What you can take from the stats is that each is incredible for their era, I don't think you can use them for comparison.

[nja]

Hey man, i said "for those actually interested".
Some people, including myself, find statistics interesting and informative.

[dutra]

Adding to the stats list, Fangio won in 1957 with the Maserati, and in that year Ferrari had a better car. The German GP of 57 was chosen the best performance of a driver in all history of motorsports.
Fangio won championships against Moss, Farina, Gonzales, Ascari...
Fangio won WDC with 4 different cars, and is th only one that won 4 championships in a roll.

Juan Manuel Fangio is the all time best. After him comes Senna, Clark, Prost, a bunch of really fantastic drivers, then Schumacher.

[Estwald]

I enjoy stats myself, so I'll give you a couple more:

Points Finshes(or top 6 in Fangio's case);Fangio-41(80.4%) Schumacher-125(72.3%)

Of races they actually finished(discount DNF's), then points finshes are as follows
Fangio-41 out of 44(93.2%) Schumacher-125 out of 130(96.2%)

[MrSlow]

Many times it has been said that it is impossible to compare them because of the different eras.

I never realized how great Fangio actually was until I read some abut his race in Nurburgring 1957.

For those who wish to compare read this:
http://dynamic2.game...id=45022&goto=5
browse to post 9 (or something) by Arturo Pereira, it is absoltuely fantastic reading.

Just a little teaser:

We got into a left-right-left switchback and I moved right beside him coming into a left-hander that had a narrow, little concrete bridge at the end of a blind up slope. Then another downslope and after that you turned sharp right, fast but very, very dodgy. The little bridge was coming at us at a million miles an hour and there we were, side by side, with me tap-dancing on the right shoulder of the road. Theoretically the bridge was just wide enough for both of us to go through together, but how brave can you get?

Finally it was Peter who lifted off at the last moment and I was 2nd. The other Ferrari was right there. It was coming nearer, swaying from side to side as Hawthorn really piled it on.

[Bex37]

Yeh, I like stats. Very interesting.

The stats you presented are a direct comparison between Fangio and Michael Schumacher. If this comparison is not meant to imply who is the better driver of the two, than what is it for? If you think you can post such a thing without starting a Fangio vs Schumacher argument, I would suggest that you are a little naive.

Anyway, I can see why you have posted it so I'll stick to your point. Good luck with the others.

The stats would seem to indicate that Fangio is better than MS by a fair amount. Obviously, the two raced in different eras. Is the competition fiercer today? Is it more difficult to win a race or get a pole? Are today's cars more reliable? I think you would need to supply these types of stats as well to do a proper comparison. One thing is for sure, it was certainly more dangerous to race in Fangio's era. I really doubt whether MS would have raced beyond 1999 if he had to face the danger that Fangio faced. How many other drivers would have challenged Fangio if the danger was at the sort of levels of today? Of course, there is no answer to these questions; I just like to ponder sometimes.

[Daniel Lester]

Any Australian would have heard Alan Jones comments on Fangio and Schumcher.

But he reckons and I must state it's only his opinion, that Fangio jumped from best car to best car in an era where the fastest where not 1sec a lap quicker but 4 or 5 or even more seconds a lap faster, hence Jones feels it's much harder to win in the modern age no matter what car you drive compared to Fangio's.

[MrSlow]

Another quote from Fangio's famous race at the ring, he is in third place, alomost one minute behind the leaders

Very often I realized that if you really were in a hurry you could sometimes take some curves a gear higher than usual. Risky, but effective. You didn’t get that comforting sensation of grip, but you went in much faster and came out like a gunblast if you chose the line properly.

There was no way I was going to give up, so I started to try the next-higher-gear stunt all over the circuit. Wherever I was going through and just lifting off in 5th, now I went through flat-out. One of those places was a left-hand bend where you had a hump as you barreled out, shot under a bridge and got onto the next straightaway. There is Armco there now, and soft shoulders, and they leveled out the hump when they rebuilt the circuit. But in those days we used to lift off a bit; for one thing, to set the car up better; for another, not to fly off into space.

Well, the first time I dared to go through flat-out, the car zoomed into the air, flew for about an hour, and landed at the very edge of the track, near the wire fencing they had then. Only God knows how the right reflex functioned to twitch the wheel, but there I was, back in business. So, that was it. From then on I took that bend flat-out. On that place alone I knew I was saving seconds that I had to have.

Yes, it was a lot easier those days

[ZZMS]

If you are so into statistics you should've known that you have to have enough samples to make some conclusions. Frankly, 51 races is not good enough to make a percentage based assumptions. Anything less than 100 is not good and I'd say 171 is not that good either but still whole lot better ;)

[Bex37]

MrSlow, thats ballsy stuff from Fangio. But today's driver has to learn to take that bump at the absolute limit in the 5 practice sessions before qualifying or he is not going to last more than a season. And I'm talking about the guy in the Minardi, not just the winner.

On the other hand, today's cars are probably much more precise in their handling than in Fangio's day. There's light years of difference in just the tyres, never mind the suspension or the overall car design.

So which is the deciding factor here WRT the talent required to come first; handling or balls? (Get your mind out of the gutter ;) ). I would speculate that not even Fangio or MS would know the answer to this one. Neither driver is ever going to be in a position to work it out. Even if MS jumped into Fangio's car, he would not be able to replicate the level of competition. Even if you could, MS would have to drive the car for a year under such competition to get used to the handling characteristics.

My conclusion is that it doesn't matter. Both drivers are extraordinary at there own game and it is a different game today. Its almost like comparing Tiger Woods with MS.

[nja]

I am drawing no conclusions whatsoever. of course its apples and oranges. Simply putting up stats of each driver's career which i found in an article.

[JForce]

Originally posted by dutra
Adding to the stats list, Fangio won in 1957 with the Maserati, and in that year Ferrari had a better car. The German GP of 57 was chosen the best performance of a driver in all history of motorsports.
Fangio won championships against Moss, Farina, Gonzales, Ascari...
Fangio won WDC with 4 different cars, and is th only one that won 4 championships in a roll.

Juan Manuel Fangio is the all time best. After him comes Senna, Clark, Prost, a bunch of really fantastic drivers, then Schumacher.

Please list the bunch of really fantastic drivers you rate above Schumacher.

Anyone wanna bet he puts Marques in there?

[Daniel Lester]

Just as a comparison:

The first ever World Championship race was held at Silverstone:
These are the qualfying times:

Farina lapped in 1:50.8
Fagioli lapped in 1:51 as did Fangio
Parnell lapped in 1:52.2
Bira (theres a familar name) lapped in 1:52.6

down in last place in 21st place was Claes who lapped 2:08.8


Farina, Fagioli, Fangio and Parnell all drove the dominant Alfa's, in fact they won all seven rounds if you discount the Indy 500.

At the end of 70 laps (202 miles/325Km) only Farina, Fagioli and Parnell were on the lead lap, Fangio retired on lap 62 due to an oil leak and the 4th placed Giraud-Cabantous driving a Lago-Talbot trailed home two laps behind. The last classified finisher was Claes in 11th who toured home 6 laps a drift, in fact everyone from 9th-11th were 6 laps behind at the end.

Farina set the fastest lap which was 2 tenths faster than he went in qualifying.

Reg Parnell was British and guest drove the 4th car as Alfa saw it as a marketing strategy.

The book says "The success of the Alfa team was never in doubt."
The book also says "The Alfas were never hard pressed"

Ferrari didn't attend, and a crowd of 100000 packed Silverstone although in the crucsh many slipped in without paying, imagine Bernie . Ferrari later stirred the Alfa soup a bit but didn't win until Gonzalez won in 51, though Alfa remained the team to beat.

[Arturo Pereira]

Statistics can reveal how efficient a driver is. Schumacher needed to drive more than 44200km to win 5 WC while Fangio drove only a little more than 20400. Schumacher led 93 out of 171 GPs while Fangio led 39 out of 51. Schumacher drove for 11 years to get 5 WC while the Maestro drove for 7 years and 2 races (1958). He did not drive a single official F1 GP race in 1952 because of an accident in an unofficial race at Monza that same year.

Enzo Ferrari said: “I saw him for the first time at the Modena Autodromo in 1949. I watched him for a couple of laps and then I couldn’t take my eyes off the car. His style was unique: he was probably the only driver to come out of a curve without grazing the bales of hay on the shoulder: “This Argentine is not kidding around,” I told myself. “He comes out of the turns like a shot but he holds the middle of the track.”

"Frank Neubauer said about Fangio: “He knows something about sliding the turns. That’s our man.” Rudy Uhlenhaut of Daimler Benz put it simply: “about 50% depends on the car and 50% on the driver. We had a look around and chose the best – and that was Fangio.” "

"Raymond Mays, BRM’s head, said: “Until then, every driver who handled the BRM had treated it with some measure of respect. Some drivers had plainly been scared by its high speed and high engine revs; all had been wary of it. Fangio was the first man who was complete master of it. He got in the BRM and shot away, straight up to 11,500rpm as though he had driven the car a score of times. Great blades of water were thrown up from each wheel as he explored his way up the straights in a series of tailslides alternating with lightning corrections.’ Fangio returned the compliment: “On the straight line it was like a wild beast … twelve thousands revs ! Anyone who drove it got out of it half deaf. And you had to be the kind that enjoyed gear changes. This has to be done continually, to ensure that the engine speed did not fall below 7000revs. That was the point at which you could call on its real power.” Fangio asked for 2 changes: a higher seating positions and air vents to ventilate the cockpit, otherwise the driver’s legs would roast. By May, with these changes, Fangio was lapping BRM’s private test track a stunning 10 seconds faster than any other driver had managed."

Fangio said : "“The competition manager of Alfa Romeo had seen me race at San Remo in 1949m when I won my first race in Europe. I don’t know quite what happened. I must have made a good impression to him.” Fangio’s first drive for Alfa was at 1950 San Remo non-championship race. Alfa was faced with either withdrawing from an event that its promoters had heaviliy sold on the strength of its first comeback race, or risking its unbeaten reputation on the unproven ability of a foreigner who had not yet even driven a 158 !. They really wanted to pull out of the race, but I was obviously keen to take my chance, so I told them, “Look, if I lose, it’s Fangio the unknown driver who loses, not Alfa Romeo. But if I win it’s Alfa Romeo who wins, providing an unbeatable car for the unknown driver. They granted me a few practice laps on the wet Saturday and finally agreed to let me have a go on the Sunday. Those 2 or 3 opening laps were about the worst in my life, but gradually I got a grip on myself and almost by itself the little Alfa seemed to go faster and faster, and to my intense relief I gradually managed to get through and win the race. Those were very, very sticky moments. The Alfa men fell all over themselves to say that that had always been sure I could do it. Dr. Alessio (Alfa Romeo chief) wanted me to sign the contract afterwards in the hotel, but said: “First we have to agree what money you want.” I just signed, and told him to fill in the noughts. I think they were very surprised, but I thought that was right. They were the greatest Grand Prix team in the world and they were giving me the chance to drive their fantastic car. I felt like a singer suddenly invited to perform at La Scala di Milano or the Metropolitan in New York or the Colon in Buenos Aires. It was the happiest moment in my life.”"

"“I only got a licence to drive on public roads in 1961 (50 years old), for a journey I had to make to Brazil. Till then I had never had a driving licence, as when I learned to drive out in the country, nobody had one. People simply learned to drive and off they went.”"


All the above mentioned stories from Karl Ludviksen book about Juan Manuel Fangio !! a must have for any car racing fan



"Bill Brandt relates the following Fangio story:
About 5-7 years ago the Monterey Historics broke tradition and honored a man instead of a marque. Juan Fangio flew up from Argentina, Daimler Benz flew his GP car of the 50's (W196?) in from Stuttgart and we had a great weekend. Stupid me I didn't want to wait in line for 5 minutes to have him autograph a poster.
Anyway there is a story behind this picture. Daimler benz flew in a mechanic who I'm sure had to guard with his life this historic race car. Trouble was in the spirit of Monterey when it wasn't in use it was in a tent - without ropes - to be viewed by the public at large. The mechanic was getting a bit upset - some would say downright rude - at the public, some of whom left their hand prints on the finish work.
The time came for this then 80 year old man, whom some consider the greatest driver ever - to drive this car around the track. Daimler Benz wanted to film this historic event - so the snooty mechanic had to pull double duty and drive a new 129 300 SL with a camera man.
The first lap, Fangio in his leather helmet is leisurely driving his car and waving to the crowd. The red 300 SL is right behind filming.
Second lap Fangio looks a bit more serious and is going a bit faster. The 300 SL is a good 100 yards behind now.
The third lap, Fangio was showing the crowd why he was the greatest. He is barreling that car around the course and the crowd has forgotten that this man is 80 years old. The 300 SL is now far behind.
Suddenly we see a big cloud of dust...the 300 SL - a car 40 years newer - has spun out! The crowd went wild! That is a memory I will always remember...along with the poster I could have had had I had a bit of patience.
Bill "


and finally, bring to me a single driver that can say Fangio took him out of the track on purpose in his entire life as a racing driver .... a single driver, and I will recognize Schumacher as a Fangio's pair. In the meantime, statistics aside, F1 has only one Maestro, so let's see who are fighting for the second place.

Arturo Pereira .... Bandy legs #1billion fan and former friend of The Old Man, sadly in his last years.

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by nja
Front Row:..............48 (94.11%)...........84 (49.1%)
Fangio's front row statistic is amazing. I would be interested to see the percentage of DNFs to assess reliability etc.

Small remark on the stats. Fangio was on the front row 48 times, yes. However, back then the front row was 3 cars and sometimes even 4 and not 2.

Not that it matters much, Fangio was in the top 2 on the grid 42 times.

If you look at Schumacher's top 3 grid positions, there's 122.

[Frans]

very sad comparison......... very

[Ray Bell]

I saw Fangio drive...

It was in September, 1978... so you work it out... was he 68 or something?

He drove a Mercedes-Benz W196 fitted with the 3-litre Sports Car engine that had lots of grunt. It was at Sandown Park, Melbourne. On the Saturday he impressed lots of people by getting it sideways in the tightish corner before the old pits. But I never saw that, I saw something really special...

I was taking photos, and I had a photographer's pass, so I could go between the horse railings that line the inside of the back straight and the downhill esses that follow. I walked up from the esses towards the top of the straight as Fangio went around and around, and when I was nearing the point where I could see him backing off at the top of the straight to go over the crest and down into the esses, all seemed very normal.

But each lap I got closer, and then I heard it... "chirp..chirpchirp... chirp.. chirp...chirp" the tyres were protesting... yet the old man didn't waver at all, it was the same every lap...

He was right at the limit of adhesion at the highest speed you reach on the circuit, nearly locking the wheels, but only because I was close enough to hear it I was the only one to know! Well, there may have been some flaggies nearby too... and not once did he lock a wheel!

Later I was talking to Jack Brabham... "It gives you heart to see him drive like that at that age... I just hope that I can still do it..."

Brabham, of course, had seen him before... he'd raced against him back as far as 1955 (oh, yeah... been lapped many times, too!) and then delivered cars to him in the early sixties. At one such time Fangio jumped into the lightweight little modern F2 or F3 car and dashed off around the circuit, tie blowing in the breeze, along with what hair he had, for he didn't don any helmet. He lapped as fast as anyone else had on that day... and the cars were nothing like what he had previously driven.

Now... a couple of small points... how come the number of pole positions changed?

And did you take into account the fact that he qualified the pole car in France in '56 and then started in another that wasn't on pole?

[Marcel Schot]

Indeed, Ray, the stats as nja quoted them from motorsport.com are... somewhat sloppy. Looking at Forix, I found the following mistakes:

Fangio
29 poles instead of 28
10 2nd places instead of 11
35 podiums instead of 36

Schumacher
31 2nd places instead of 30
46 poles instead of 45
79 front rows instead of 84

France'56 is counted as a Fangio pole.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Daniel Lester
Any Australian would have heard Alan Jones comments on Fangio and Schumcher.

But he reckons and I must state it's only his opinion, that Fangio jumped from best car to best car in an era where the fastest where not 1sec a lap quicker but 4 or 5 or even more seconds a lap faster, hence Jones feels it's much harder to win in the modern age no matter what car you drive compared to Fangio's.

He even jumped mid season season!!..because he wanted the best car.

[wadders]

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
Statistics can reveal how efficient a driver is. Schumacher needed to drive more than 44200km to win 5 WC while Fangio drove only a little more than 20400. Schumacher led 93 out of 171 GPs while Fangio led 39 out of 51. Schumacher drove for 11 years to get 5 WC while the Maestro drove for 7 years and 2 races (1958). He did not drive a single official F1 GP race in 1952 because of an accident in an unofficial race at Monza that same year.

Enzo Ferrari said: ?I saw him for the first time at the Modena Autodromo in 1949. I watched him for a couple of laps and then I couldn?t take my eyes off the car. His style was unique: he was probably the only driver to come out of a curve without grazing the bales of hay on the shoulder: ?This Argentine is not kidding around,? I told myself. ?He comes out of the turns like a shot but he holds the middle of the track.?

"Frank Neubauer said about Fangio: ?He knows something about sliding the turns. That?s our man.? Rudy Uhlenhaut of Daimler Benz put it simply: ?about 50% depends on the car and 50% on the driver. We had a look around and chose the best - and that was Fangio.? "

"Raymond Mays, BRM?s head, said: ?Until then, every driver who handled the BRM had treated it with some measure of respect. Some drivers had plainly been scared by its high speed and high engine revs; all had been wary of it. Fangio was the first man who was complete master of it. He got in the BRM and shot away, straight up to 11,500rpm as though he had driven the car a score of times. Great blades of water were thrown up from each wheel as he explored his way up the straights in a series of tailslides alternating with lightning corrections.? Fangio returned the compliment: ?On the straight line it was like a wild beast ? twelve thousands revs ! Anyone who drove it got out of it half deaf. And you had to be the kind that enjoyed gear changes. This has to be done continually, to ensure that the engine speed did not fall below 7000revs. That was the point at which you could call on its real power.? Fangio asked for 2 changes: a higher seating positions and air vents to ventilate the cockpit, otherwise the driver?s legs would roast. By May, with these changes, Fangio was lapping BRM?s private test track a stunning 10 seconds faster than any other driver had managed."

Fangio said : "?The competition manager of Alfa Romeo had seen me race at San Remo in 1949m when I won my first race in Europe. I don?t know quite what happened. I must have made a good impression to him.? Fangio?s first drive for Alfa was at 1950 San Remo non-championship race. Alfa was faced with either withdrawing from an event that its promoters had heaviliy sold on the strength of its first comeback race, or risking its unbeaten reputation on the unproven ability of a foreigner who had not yet even driven a 158 !. They really wanted to pull out of the race, but I was obviously keen to take my chance, so I told them, ?Look, if I lose, it?s Fangio the unknown driver who loses, not Alfa Romeo. But if I win it?s Alfa Romeo who wins, providing an unbeatable car for the unknown driver. They granted me a few practice laps on the wet Saturday and finally agreed to let me have a go on the Sunday. Those 2 or 3 opening laps were about the worst in my life, but gradually I got a grip on myself and almost by itself the little Alfa seemed to go faster and faster, and to my intense relief I gradually managed to get through and win the race. Those were very, very sticky moments. The Alfa men fell all over themselves to say that that had always been sure I could do it. Dr. Alessio (Alfa Romeo chief) wanted me to sign the contract afterwards in the hotel, but said: ?First we have to agree what money you want.? I just signed, and told him to fill in the noughts. I think they were very surprised, but I thought that was right. They were the greatest Grand Prix team in the world and they were giving me the chance to drive their fantastic car. I felt like a singer suddenly invited to perform at La Scala di Milano or the Metropolitan in New York or the Colon in Buenos Aires. It was the happiest moment in my life.?"

"?I only got a licence to drive on public roads in 1961 (50 years old), for a journey I had to make to Brazil. Till then I had never had a driving licence, as when I learned to drive out in the country, nobody had one. People simply learned to drive and off they went.?"


All the above mentioned stories from Karl Ludviksen book about Juan Manuel Fangio !! a must have for any car racing fan



"Bill Brandt relates the following Fangio story:
About 5-7 years ago the Monterey Historics broke tradition and honored a man instead of a marque. Juan Fangio flew up from Argentina, Daimler Benz flew his GP car of the 50's (W196?) in from Stuttgart and we had a great weekend. Stupid me I didn't want to wait in line for 5 minutes to have him autograph a poster.
Anyway there is a story behind this picture. Daimler benz flew in a mechanic who I'm sure had to guard with his life this historic race car. Trouble was in the spirit of Monterey when it wasn't in use it was in a tent - without ropes - to be viewed by the public at large. The mechanic was getting a bit upset - some would say downright rude - at the public, some of whom left their hand prints on the finish work.
The time came for this then 80 year old man, whom some consider the greatest driver ever - to drive this car around the track. Daimler Benz wanted to film this historic event - so the snooty mechanic had to pull double duty and drive a new 129 300 SL with a camera man.
The first lap, Fangio in his leather helmet is leisurely driving his car and waving to the crowd. The red 300 SL is right behind filming.
Second lap Fangio looks a bit more serious and is going a bit faster. The 300 SL is a good 100 yards behind now.
The third lap, Fangio was showing the crowd why he was the greatest. He is barreling that car around the course and the crowd has forgotten that this man is 80 years old. The 300 SL is now far behind.
Suddenly we see a big cloud of dust...the 300 SL - a car 40 years newer - has spun out! The crowd went wild! That is a memory I will always remember...along with the poster I could have had had I had a bit of patience.
Bill "


and finally, bring to me a single driver that can say Fangio took him out of the track on purpose in his entire life as a racing driver .... a single driver, and I will recognize Schumacher as a Fangio's pair. In the meantime, statistics aside, F1 has only one Maestro, so let's see who are fighting for the second place.

Arturo Pereira .... Bandy legs #1billion fan and former friend of The Old Man, sadly in his last years.

A question: Did Fangio spend 4 years helping rejuvenate an injured tiger? I think you will find the answer to that one is no!!! Also, Fangio drove the best cars around as did Senna. Schumi has not gone for the best cars but the best image I guess and probably the money. Not that he wouldnt have got the money at say Williams in 1996!!

IMHO what makes Schumi great is his role in rejuvenating Ferrari - the Injured/Hibernating Tiger! It is about having the best team and Schumi has that because he recommended people to the Ferrari top brass, rejected infighting and delivered results in cars that shouldnt have won. The wins came, infighting went away and we got Ferrari back. That is the greatness factor for me not stats, not 5 WDCs. If he had moved to Williams in 1996 and then Macs in 1998, he would have won more than 5 titles by now(we agree universally agree that he is the best driver around). Stats are meaningless in this regard.

I hope you can see my point!!!

[baddog]

what this thread shows (as if it needed to be shown) is that indeed fangio was a great racing driver, perhaps the epitome of his era. thats why that was HIS era, referred to now as fangio's day, and for the same reasons this is michaels. Does anyone really doubt that this will be referred to as the Schumacher Era?

The numbers ARE interesting, but not instructive. They reflect the great differences in the manner the sport is run in different eras.

Shaun

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by nja
For those actually interested in the statistics of the two 5xWDCs, Schumacher and Fangio, this from motorsport.com:

(.....)

.................................Fangio.............Schumacher
Years In F1: .................8.......................11

Formula One Races:.....51......................171

Wins:.......................24 (47.05%)..........61 (35.6%)

(......)

They did it again! Calling the World Driver Championship "F1"......
For the umptieth time: the 1950s WDC were not (strictly) Formula 1!
The 1952 & 1953 WDC races were Formula 2 (apart from the Indy 500).

So.... that's 23 wins out of 43 WDC F1 races for JMF. Fangio did, however, also compete in non-Championship F1 races. I'll leave those statistics to others....

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Arrow


He even jumped mid season season!!..because he wanted the best car.

I don't think so, he had to wait for his chosen team to be ready (not too uncommon those days) and had to do the first races in another car.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by dutra
Adding to the stats list, Fangio won in 1957 with the Maserati, and in that year Ferrari had a better car.

The 801's (formerly Lancia-Ferrari's) were as ancient a design as the 250F and certainly weren't better over a whole season.

Fangio won championships against Moss, Farina, Gonzales, Ascari...

Every champion had competition, that's why it's called the championship.

and is th only one that won 4 championships in a roll.

For now

[Marcel Schot]

Originally posted by scheivlak

So.... that's 23 wins out of 43 WDC F1 races for JMF. Fangio did, however, also compete in non-Championship F1 races. I'll leave those statistics to others....

See http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=45068

While we're comparing something incomparable, we might also note that in several races Fangio used the opportunity to switch cars midrace, abandoning broken cars in favor of a teammate's car with the possibility to score points. For example 1956 : He retired in Argentina, took over Musso's car to win and score 4 points (half of the 8 for a win). In Monaco he switched cars and scored half points for both 2nd and 4th and finally in Italy he took over Collins' car to score 2nd instead of finishing in the back of the field.

[philhitchings]

Fangio and Schumacher are both examples of brilliance

Both drivers have become the definition of supresmacy during the period in which they compete(d)

[Vitesse2]

Marcel, we are indeed comparing apples and oranges, but if shared drives were still allowed, how many more points and/or wins might Schumacher have? And how many fewer would Irvine, Barrichello, Herbert etc etc have ....?

The point was made at the beginning of this thread that Fangio raced against greater opposition than Schumacher has enjoyed - Ascari, Farina, Moss, Hawthorn, Gonzalez, Behra etc were all in their pomp at the time, yet Fangio consistently beat them all. The quality of fields in the early 50s, the number of GP winners and champions/future champions racing together beggars belief today when only one other WDC is currently in the field, in an uncompetitive car.

And yes, he did jump from team to team, but the driver's role was very different then. He was a mercenary, driving for whoever could provide the best rewards. If we take Ferrari as an example, Enzo was still very much alive (something died in him and the team when Dino died) and ruled the team with a rod of iron - no driver would have dared (or needed) to try to do what Schumacher has done. In the 80s and early 90s Ferrari was a rudderless ship, lurching from crisis to crisis - Prost tried and failed, Mansell tried and failed, others just took the money Schumacher saw the opportunity and took it - with the addition of Todt he recreated the core team that had been winners at Benetton.

No-one has yet made the point that Fangio not only raced in F1, but also in F2 in the early years - in 1950 he entered 14 F1 races and 5 F2 races, 1951 10 F1 and 2 F2 - not to mention his outstanding record in sports car racing, South American Temporada races (six wins in early 1952 before he broke his neck at Monza). The races were longer and more gruelling, the cars more primitive .... Fangio probably averaged thirty races a year - when did Schumacher last do more than 17? Probably in F3 ....

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

The point was made at the beginning of this thread that Fangio raced against greater opposition than Schumacher has enjoyed - Ascari, Farina, Moss, Hawthorn, Gonzalez, Behra etc were all in their pomp at the time, yet Fangio consistently beat them all. The quality of fields in the early 50s, the number of GP winners and champions/future champions racing together beggars belief today when only one other WDC is currently in the field, in an uncompetitive car.

Fangio raced against all off 2 WDC winning drivers, the old Farina and Ascari who had all of half a season in uncompetetive car
Besides this argument begs the question: "when did the production of capable racers stop?" because the fact that the best training and spotting ever in the history of the sport can produce a grid of people who can't race for **** must mean that either 1) the genepool has so significantly changed that real racers are no longer born, or 2) All the real racers gave up after Senna's death and are now cycling/darting/karting/whatever.

[Daniel Lester]

Doubt he even did 17 in F3 in a single season given the budget restraints of most F3 teams.
Longer races wouldn't be a hassle today as the drivers train much harder and are quite a bit fitter, I'm sure MS and co could go 500km if that was the deal.

On the otherhand Fangio didn't have to test and attend sponsorship functions and be PR correct all the time + motorsport was fun and not a corporate event, it was more of a gentlemans past time there were also a lot of rich people involved (not people who have become rich through racing).

There's no doubting the sport has changed a lot in the last 50 years and that's why comparisons are so hard to make. Schumacher may never have been an F1 driver in the 50's, and likewise Fangio today. Driving is a skill obtained through practise as no one is born with the capacity to drive, some are more gifted at going faster than others and that's the one thing both drivers share in common. Schumacher says he couldn't have driven the cars back then as they were dangerous but at the time they were cutting edge technology in the same way as today's car will look dumb in 50 years time. Danger is relative, back in the 50's it was safer to drive and F1 than it had been to fly a fighter plane in the war just a few years earlier and they got paid to do so.

Both drivers can have the team orders/best car argument levelled against them but no driver reaches that position within a team without being a bit special to start with. Of course the argument runs deeper than that.

[Don Capps]

I have come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no way to compare eras in motor sport in any rational, objective, meaningful format since unlike some other forms of sport -- say baseball, football (American and Soccer), cricket, and so forth -- the fundamentals have changed so radically (especially in the technology involved, the venues, and the rules -- "formulae") from era to era and there simply are not any real benchmarks that carry over past just a few seasons, particularly in the past several decades.

[troyf1]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I have come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no way to compare eras in motor sport in any rational, objective, meaningful format since unlike some other forms of sport -- say baseball, football (American and Soccer), cricket, and so forth -- the fundamentals have changed so radically (especially in the technology involved, the venues, and the rules -- "formulae") from era to era and there simply are not any real benchmarks that carry over past just a few seasons, particularly in the past several decades.

Well said Don.......

[The RedBaron]

Originally posted by Don Capps
I have come to the conclusion that there is absolutely no way to compare eras in motor sport in any rational, objective, meaningful format since unlike some other forms of sport -- say baseball, football (American and Soccer), cricket, and so forth -- the fundamentals have changed so radically (especially in the technology involved, the venues, and the rules -- "formulae") from era to era and there simply are not any real benchmarks that carry over past just a few seasons, particularly in the past several decades.

Totally agree....it's just the Media stirring the pot!
Great drivers will never be forgotten regardless of time!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Foxbat


Fangio raced against all off 2 WDC winning drivers,

As the WDC only started in 1950, it would be difficult for there to be many more as Fangio won five of the first eight! Future champions who raced against Fangio in F1: Hawthorn, Brabham, P Hill, G Hill. Potential champions who raced against Fangio: Trips, Moss ....

Originally posted by Foxbat

the old Farina and Ascari who had all of half a season in uncompetetive car

Farina was indeed old by 1950, but if you examine his pre-War (and post-War) record, you'll realise he was one of the great drivers, but with an unfortunate tendency to the over-dramatic And what is the comment about Ascari meant to say? I assume you are referring to 1954, when he spent most of the year waiting for the Lancia D50 - he ran a Maserati 250F, by no means an uncompetitive car.

Originally posted by Foxbat

Besides this argument begs the question: "when did the production of capable racers stop?" because the fact that the best training and spotting ever in the history of the sport can produce a grid of people who can't race for shit must mean that either 1) the genepool has so significantly changed that real racers are no longer born, or 2) All the real racers gave up after Senna's death and are now cycling/darting/karting/whatever.

Money talks, especiallyat the back end of the grid ....

Don:

[baddog]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


As the WDC only started in 1950, it would be difficult for there to be many more as Fangio won five of the first eight! Future champions who raced against Fangio in F1: Hawthorn, Brabham, P Hill, G Hill. Potential champions who raced against Fangio: Trips, Moss ....

and how my friend do you know how many future champions michael has raced against?

he has already raced against 6 champions.

Shaun

[Daemon]

As Don says, you can't compare them to closely. The sport today compared to then is far to different. What you can compare is their success and level of dominance over the years they have competed.

Some say Clark was better than Fangio, who jumped from the best car, always to the best car and his success was due to this. Many today say that Senna was better than Schumacher, as he raced far more skilled opponents such as Prost, Mansell and Piquet to Schumachers Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen.

The only comparison you can really make of the two that over 50 years, only two men have really, totally dominated their era. Fangio and Schumacher. 5 world championships a piece, and in another 50 years, know one is going to really know or care whether or not Schumacher raced against arguably inferior opponents to Champions a decade before, or whether J.M Fangio won due to superior machinery. Success is measured in results and not what-ifs and hypotheticals In their level of success they are similar, and thats really all you can guage.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by baddog
he has already raced against 6 champions.

Shaun

Seven, actually, but four were approaching the end of their careers (Mansell, Piquet, Prost, Hill) and Senna was perhaps taken just past his prime. Schumacher has perhaps been fortunate that only three of his main rivals have been about his own age - Villeneuve, Hakkinen and Coulthard - and Jacques has saddled himself with the wrong car since he left Williams.

Future champions? Of the current field - maybe three new ones ....

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

As the WDC only started in 1950, it would be difficult for there to be many more as Fangio won five of the first eight! Future champions who raced against Fangio in F1: Hawthorn, Brabham, P Hill, G Hill. Potential champions who raced against Fangio: Trips, Moss ....

The Big Names of the previous generation had all left the sport before the end of 1994, and with Schumacher taking 5 out of the next nine champiosnhip there couldn't have been many more champions for him to fight. And surely Damon and Mika retiring didn't lower the amount of competition MS had to face, even if pseudo-statistitical wisdom would imply that (not to mention that we can't now how many future champs he has had to face this season).
Basically what I'm saying is that the WDC's on the grid is a crutch, and while it is generally used to whack MS with it can also be turned on other drivers. Sure the death of Senna "cheapened" Schumacher's early WDC's as he had no "worthy" opponent, but 8 years on this argument starts to pale more than a little.

Farina was indeed old by 1950, but if you examine his pre-War (and post-War) record, you'll realise he was one of the great drivers, but with an unfortunate tendency to the over-dramatic

Farina was a great, but he was positively ancient in 1950. Imagine what people would think if Patrese had been found equal to Schumacher and had stuck around to win the 1994 WDC. According to the 'WDC argument' that should increase Schumachers prestige and put him among the greats

And what is the comment about Ascari meant to say? I assume you are referring to 1954, when he spent most of the year waiting for the Lancia D50 - he ran a Maserati 250F, by no means an uncompetitive car.

Three starts and 4 retirements, if that's a competetive car than BAR has a tradition of excellence ;). It was relatively harder for Schuey to 'beat' Jaxs in a BAR than it was for Fangio to 'beat' Ascari in that Maserati.



Now I don't mean disrespect to any of the drivers mentioned, but if we're going to compare Fangio and MS on the basis of their competition (or lack thereof) than surely Fangio's competition deserves a hard look, and if we look hard we'll see that Fangio's competition was as statistically weak (or even weaker) than Schumacher's. A finding that probably doesn't come as a surprise as their respective times were dominated by one driver 'hogging' most of the glory.

Schumacher has perhaps been fortunate that only three of his main rivals have been about his own age

Or unfortunate in that people will forever be using that as an argument to devaluate his achievements.

[Sulla]

For me the strongest arguments against MS's supposed "domination" are:

1. The 1999 season where EI came very close to winning the WDC against MH who had the "best car". In fact Ferrari won the CC heralding the advent of great success. So it took Ferrari first to build the great car and then the WDC happened the following year.

2. The entire "team orders" controversy, which appears to support the argument that MS has always had an inordinate amount of teammates looking out for him, all season long, as opposed to other drivers of the modern era.

3. The seeming total concentration on him, to the exclusion of others, during the course of a season.

4. The guys who became WDC's against him do not place higher than 7th in all-time wins or poles achieved.

The question posed to him at the end of the post-race interviews where he was asked, and I paraphrase, if it's better to be the best driver or have the best contract and his response was no comment, is pretty telling. I'm glad for his fans that they have someone they can aggrandize. I think he's a good driver.

In my opinion as far as Fangio is concerned, he really does stand alone within his era.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by wadders


A question: Did Fangio spend 4 years helping rejuvenate an injured tiger? I think you will find the answer to that one is no!!!

What do you mean ?? maybe my english is not good enough.

Also, Fangio drove the best cars around as did Senna. Schumi has not gone for the best cars but the best image I guess and probably the money. Not that he wouldnt have got the money at say Williams in 1996!!

Fangio did not always drive the best cars around. The BRM was undrivable, but he could drive it very well. HE could. When he joined Ferrari (he said it was his worst year in the F1) he had to put lots of pressure on the Team to change a lot of things. Basically to improve reliability. Those Lancia D50 were a nightmare, but it was team's fault. When he could change this, then he begun to won.

IMHO what makes Schumi great is his role in rejuvenating Ferrari - the Injured/Hibernating Tiger! It is about having the best team and Schumi has that because he recommended people to the Ferrari top brass, rejected infighting and delivered results in cars that shouldnt have won. The wins came, infighting went away and we got Ferrari back. That is the greatness factor for me not stats, not 5 WDCs. If he had moved to Williams in 1996 and then Macs in 1998, he would have won more than 5 titles by now(we agree universally agree that he is the best driver around). Stats are meaningless in this regard.

I hope you can see my point!!!

As I;ve said, Fangio did not like to have joined the Team Ferrari and Enzo Ferrari did not like Fangio, though he paid for him because he knew he was the best driver available. Fangio said: "“I must say that the year with Ferrari was not happy. I never felt comfortable there. Since I first raced in Europe I had always been in a team that was opposing Ferrari. Now I was joining in.”" He would have continue with Mercedes Benz since he was pretty well there, but he could not do it. Schumacher never had to deal with Enzo Ferrari and he joined the team being the best driver around. He did a BIG bet, but he must have found what he was looking for, money aside.
Fangio joined Ferrari being 46 years old and having known him personally, I bet he was looking for the best Team available, but he never like the way the Team was managed. He did what he could to change it with good results, but next year he decided to go with MAserati since he has an old friendship with the Team's owners. He raced what was maybe his best year, but he was thinking about the retirement even then.

I do not want to compare both drivers, Schumacher and Fangio. Based on statistics, I mean that Fangio was a more efficient driver with the cars he could drive, and that when he got his 5th Championship, he was 47 years old, 15 years older than Schumacher and more than 15 years older than almost all his rivals in the tracks, and that he had had enough of the F1 for him. He thought he would have never ended his racing life the same way Nuvolari did .... not being competitive.

As for stats being meaningless on this regard, I really do not agree. They must be analyzed with care, but they mean a lot. So of course I can see your point and I respect it a lot, but I am afraid that I do not agree with you in this matter .... though no hard feelings about this of course

Arturo

PS: I am argentine and I knew the Man personally, so I try to be objective about him, but I not always can ;)

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by wadders


IMHO what makes Schumi great is his role in rejuvenating Ferrari - the Injured/Hibernating Tiger! It is about having the best team and Schumi has that because he recommended people to the Ferrari top brass, rejected infighting and delivered results in cars that shouldnt have won. The wins came, infighting went away and we got Ferrari back. That is the greatness factor for me not stats, not 5 WDCs. If he had moved to Williams in 1996 and then Macs in 1998, he would have won more than 5 titles by now(we agree universally agree that he is the best driver around). Stats are meaningless in this regard.

I hope you can see my point!!!

I think the above is a little disrespectful against Jean, Ross, Rory and the rest of the team.
Altough I have no doubt that Schumacher has played a role in the development of the team and the cars, I think compared to Jean Todt & Ross Brawn, he has done little. In fact, I am quite sure that the "Tiger" had been "rejuvenated" even without Michael, altough I do of course agree he is a great driver.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by MrSlow


I think the above is a little disrespectful against Jean, Ross, Rory and the rest of the team.
Altough I have no doubt that Schumacher has played a role in the development of the team and the cars, I think compared to Jean Todt & Ross Brawn, he has done little. In fact, I am quite sure that the "Tiger" had been "rejuvenated" even without Michael, altough I do of course agree he is a great driver.

Tell me then who would have driven for this rejuvenated team? And who would have designed the car? MS may not have been personally responsible for the rejuvenating that went on at Ferrari, but he was the vital part around which the whole team could be build -and that kept the team together even through the valley of tears that was 1996.

[prettyface]

With all due respect to Schumi:

http://www.markegard.../res/fangio.jpg

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira

Fangio did not always drive the best cars around. The BRM was undrivable, but he could drive it very well. HE could. When he joined Ferrari (he said it was his worst year in the F1) he had to put lots of pressure on the Team to change a lot of things. Basically to improve reliability. Those Lancia D50 were a nightmare, but it was team's fault. When he could change this, then he begun to won.

I guess he had a lot more in common with Schumacher than we all had realised (being able to drive cars considered undrivable by others, and forcing Ferrari to get their act together)

I do not want to compare both drivers, Schumacher and Fangio. Based on statistics, I mean that Fangio was a more efficient driver with the cars he could drive, and that when he got his 5th Championship, he was 47 years old, 15 years older than Schumacher and more than 15 years older than almost all his rivals in the tracks, and that he had had enough of the F1 for him. He thought he would have never ended his racing life the same way Nuvolari did .... not being competitive.

I think that also goes a long way to explain his "mercenary" behaviour (jumping from team to team), time was running out for Fangio and he could not afford to stick around a team and wait for years until it had matured (although not all these teams were the 'safe bets' they may seem in retrospect).

PS: I am argentine and I knew the Man personally, so I try to be objective about him, but I not always can ;)

Fangio was such a great driver, and from what I understand an equally great personality, that I don't think anyone will hold it against you

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Sulla
For me the strongest arguments against MS's supposed "domination" are:

1. The 1999 season where EI came very close to winning the WDC against MH who had the "best car". In fact Ferrari won the CC heralding the advent of great success. So it took Ferrari first to build the great car and then the WDC happened the following year.

Look at what happened from 1994 to 2002, the only years that MS didn't come either first or second in the championship were 1996 and 1999, when he was injured, if that's not domination nothing is.

2. The entire "team orders" controversy, which appears to support the argument that MS has always had an inordinate amount of teammates looking out for him, all season long, as opposed to other drivers of the modern era.

Remind us again how many wins, points and ultimately championships were handed to Schumi by his teammates...

3. The seeming total concentration on him, to the exclusion of others, during the course of a season.

Making the system work for you is either smart or underhanded, you get to pick which you prefer

4. The guys who became WDC's against him do not place higher than 7th in all-time wins or poles achieved.

That would be a good argument in favour of his domination.





Pretty face>

[Sulla]

1. 1997 he was removed from the championship so he didn't "place second".

2. In every race MS has received some help from his teammate, EVERY race. Whether you care to acknowledge it or not makes no difference to me.

3. See 2 above

4. See 2 above

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Sulla
For me the strongest arguments against MS's supposed "domination" are:

1. The 1999 season where EI came very close to winning the WDC against MH who had the "best car". In fact Ferrari won the CC heralding the advent of great success. So it took Ferrari first to build the great car and then the WDC happened the following year.

I suppose there's logic in this argument, but I fail to see it. The only thing I did see was that even after returning from his injury, he had to tow Eddie to the finish line, and even then it was obvious how much more dominant Schumacher was.

2. The entire "team orders" controversy, which appears to support the argument that MS has always had an inordinate amount of teammates looking out for him, all season long, as opposed to other drivers of the modern era.

Same old, same old. What would you do if you have a driver who uses to totally nihilate his teammate in qualifying and racing? It's only since the F2002 of this year that Rubens has broken that tradition on a couple of occassions, but for the rest the shadow Schumacher casts on his teammates is mind boggling.

3. The seeming total concentration on him, to the exclusion of others, during the course of a season.

That's just a different wording of #2.

4. The guys who became WDC's against him do not place higher than 7th in all-time wins or poles achieved.

Well, it's hard to score wins if Schumacher takes a lot of those away, not? And, as stated before, he came into the field at the end of an era of experienced and long running WDCs.

The question posed to him at the end of the post-race interviews where he was asked, and I paraphrase, if it's better to be the best driver or have the best contract and his response was no comment, is pretty telling. I'm glad for his fans that they have someone they can aggrandize. I think he's a good driver.

You fail to mention the circumstances and atmosphere surrounding that interview, Austria 2002, correct? And please tell me how much the other drivers had to say?
If anything, Schumacher was between a rock and a hard place. There was only a lose-lose answer possible on that question, please tell me what he should have answered.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Mosquito

If anything, Schumacher was between a rock and a hard place. There was only a lose-lose answer possible on that question, please tell me what he should have answered.

"I am one and I have the other!"