34 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

Reading through a 1957 issue of Motor Racing I find...

Connaught will soon be starting experiments with the Coventry Climax V8 Grand Prix engine. Some testing has been done with Leslie Brookes' V8 engine but results have been disappointing and Rodney Clarke has little hope for the design having any effective use.

I've not heard of this engine before (not surprising, please be patient with me...) and would like to know a little more about it.

Was there anything unique or special about it? Did it find a place anywhere? Do examples still exist?

[Vitesse2]

That's presumably the Godiva, which eventually surfaced "powering" the Shannon in 1966. Climax had abandoned it in 1954 having believed the inflated bhp claims of Lancia and Mercedes, effectively killing off the Kieft and HWM F1 projects, as well as the rear-engined Connaught, later completed with an Alta engine.

Our old friend Paul Emery features prominently here.

When in 1957 was this Ray? Connaught pulled out of F1 after Monaco ....

[Ray Bell]

Certainly the Coventry Climax engine mentioned was the Godiva...

But the Leslie Brookes engine was tested prior to this item appearing in the February issue. The Godiva trials were yet to begin, as I understand the wording of this item. It's on page 47.

[Doug Nye]

No, no boys - no - it's the Brooke-Weston V8 which was a project fostered by Leslie Brooke of Brooke Special, ERA and Coventry Blitz George Medal fame. In 1952 he contacted Alderman Harry Weston, sometime Lord Mayor of Coventry, who was managing director of Machine Tools Limited, to collaborate on a British proprietary GP engine.

Brookie was a very popular bloke and he attracted support from Coventry industry in the shape of the Rootes brothers, who authorised two of their engineers - Bill Oliver and Ron Dalton - to assist in design. Brooke and Weston set up a company named Speed Engines Ltd to build a 2 1/2-litre V8 for the 1954 Formula 1 regs. The engine was inevitably slow in appearing. It was released to the press in 1955, but it wasn't a particularly bright piece of work. Typical of the British Midlands motor industry they thought 'Humber', not 'Vanwall'. The Brooke-Weston V8 was a packaging horror - it seems to have been over a foot longer than the contemporary Climax Godiva V8...

The trouble was that the Alderrman had insisted on the engine being dual-purpose - F1 or road-going production car power unit. It weighed a colossal 400lbs. Bill Dalton told Mike Lawrence he was looking for 230bhp at 8,000rpm. By 1955-56 that was nowhere near enough when such infelicitous mass and bulk had to be dragged around.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Sounds right unpromising... thanks Doug.

Maybe somebody has a photo, diagrams etc they can post?

[Doug Nye]

I remember seeing one of the engines - errr, I think that should be THE engine - about 15-20 years ago at a Beaulieu Autojumble. I'm sure it survives, somewhere, but I don't have a pic to hand. What I DO have a pic of - at last - is a shot showing the length difference between a 2.9-3.2-litre Alfa Tipo B or 308 straight-8 and a 3.8-litre 8C-35 Alfa straight-8. But that's another thread...

DCN

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
That's presumably the Godiva, which eventually surfaced "powering" the Shannon in 1966. Climax had abandoned it in 1954 having believed the inflated bhp claims of Lancia and Mercedes, effectively killing off the Kieft and HWM F1 projects, as well as the rear-engined Connaught, later completed with an Alta engine.

I hear the Kieft now has its Godiva motor, and make its first race track appearance soon!

[Doug Nye]

Hey David - welcome to TNF. Accept now that no longer is time your own...

DCN

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Hey David - welcome to TNF. Accept now that no longer is time your own...

DCN

Thanks Doug
Don't worry, I was a bit of a newsgroup / message board / forum addict anyway.....this looks a much more constructive waste of time than some I have frequented

[dretceterini]

David:

Welcome; and it is!

Stu

[ry6]

I recently posted a thread about Ian Fraser Jones, the SA Motor Racing Champion of 1958 and 1959.

It seems pure co-incidence that in 1954 he competed in the Monte Carlo Rally with Leslie Brooke and Ron Dalton in an Sunbeam Talbot "MWK 11".

Ian wrote a story about his experiences and mentioned what a superb driver Brooke was, especially on the icy roads.

The story starts " On Saturday, January 9th 1954, H L Brooke met me at London airport with MWK 11, and we proceeded at once to Coventry for final preparations, and to work ourselves into a team. Our third member was to be R Dalton, from the research department of the Rootes Group."

"....MWK 11 had always been a 'works' car and was magnificently equipped for the Monte..."

It would appear that MWK 11 did not run as part of the works team.

My question/interest is how did an "unknown" such as Fraser Jones end up in a team with such experts as Brooke and Dalton.

OK I know that their end result (196th) was not too good, but it seems that this was more the result of certain troubles than ability.

[David McKinney]

There could have been some business connection between them.
Brooke spent some time in Africa in the 1940s or 1950s, though I think it was further north than Fraser Jones's normal stamping ground - perhaps Kenya or Uganda. Maybe their paths crossed then?

[Roger Clark]

This is the B-W engine drawn by Theo Page for Autosport, 4th November 1955

[Mark Beckman]

My goodness, how many helical/bevel gears can you get into 1 motor !

And they considered it for production ?

Crazy talk....

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, Mark, indeed!

Thanks very much for posting that cutaway, Roger. It's plain to see that the engine was very long due to the grouping of ancillaries on the front, especially the bulky gear-driven water pumps.

I'd say this was relatively practical with a front-engined car in mind, but would have been a real problem with a rear-engined model. But all the same, there's a lot of weight going to be carried in all those shafts and gears, and look at how they have Timken bearings that require pre-loading too! More bits and pieces that weigh too much.

[pedro]

I hear the Kieft now has its Godiva motor, and make its first race track appearance soon!

Great to hear about the Kieft.

Mike Lawrence, writing in 1987, said "the [Speed/Brooke-Weston] engine is still in existence and when last heard the owner had plans to rebuild and modify it, and install it in the Kieft F1 car which he also owns".

Well, 15 years on, and a Godiva rather than a Brooke-Weston, but it will still be nice to see the Kieft at last.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by pedro


Great to hear about the Kieft.

Mike Lawrence, writing in 1987, said "the [Speed/Brooke-Weston] engine is still in existence and when last heard the owner had plans to rebuild and modify it, and install it in the Kieft F1 car which he also owns".

Well, 15 years on, and a Godiva rather than a Brooke-Weston, but it will still be nice to see the Kieft at last.

Which Mike Lawrence book is that? In my copy of Grand Prix cars 1945 -65 he only mentions the Godiva.

Going back to the rear engined Connaught: it never ran at all did it ?- not even with an Alta motor. (ref the Johnny Johnson book)

[Doug Nye]

My understanding is that the only substantial part of this wonderfully conceived vehicle to be completed was the transaxle. You wouldn't get much of a run out of that baby...

DCN

[pedro]

Which Mike Lawrence book is that? In my copy of Grand Prix cars 1945 -65 he only mentions the Godiva

Yes - right book, but under the Speed entry, not the Kieft entry.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
My understanding is that the only substantial part of this wonderfully conceived vehicle to be completed was the transaxle. You wouldn't get much of a run out of that baby...

DCN

And what a shame. The rear engined Godiva powered Connaught with Archie at the wheel could have changed history....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
My understanding is that the only substantial part of this wonderfully conceived vehicle to be completed was the transaxle. You wouldn't get much of a run out of that baby...

I'm sure you recognise, Doug, the importance of this component in those days...

Cooper had to modify strengthened Citroen gearboxes because there was nothing else available. So what was the Connaught transaxle? Another Citroen-based box?

If it was anything else, say a purpose-built creation, why didn't Cooper go for it instead?

[Doug Nye]

Wash your mouth out with soapy water... another Citroen-based 'box????

Connaught Engineering put the accent squarely upon Engineering - it was entirely an in-house design and product as far as I can recall, and the principals at the Send factory would have had it no other way....they were an extraordinarily innovative and capable company, hamstrung by minimal funding. Cooper didn't "go for it" on two grounds - a) Charlie Cooper wouldn't have dreamed of writing the cheque and b) it was inevitably rather heavy, and the practicians at Surbiton recognised that the lighter Citroen box would suffice for them if only they could introduce some cool oil flow through it.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

I'd guessed that, Doug, just seeking confirmation...

Shame it was so heavy. Shame Moss had to go to Colotti, Lotus to ZF, before Hewland got into stride. I realise that Hewland, like Cosworth, came to power riding the back of Formula Junior, but it could have been so different.

Err... are these bubbles normal using this procedure?

[Peter Linsky]

Hello, friends -

I am doing some research into the ownership history of some old Porsche Abarth Carreras, and the name of Ian Fraser Jones popped up. Might anyone in the South African racing community have any knowledge of whether IFJ is still alive, or who might have insight as to his Porsche racing days?

Cheers!

Peter Linsky
Oregon USA

[bradbury west]

ISTR that there was a multi page article on him in Vintage Racecar 2 or 3 years ago. Have you seen that? Perhaps the article's author might know of him, otherwise we have ZA membership on TNF
Roger Lund

[Richard Young]

ISTR that there was a multi page article on him in Vintage Racecar 2 or 3 years ago. Have you seen that? Perhaps the article's author might know of him, otherwise we have ZA membership on TNF
Roger Lund

Seem to recall that he was entered in the sports car race supporting an Aintree 200 in 1960(1?) drivig either an RS60 or RS61 Porsche.....
Can't recall if he actually appeared ......

[David McKinney]

The query might get more response in a new thread

[Leigh Trevail]

Getting back to the engine in question, there is a page or so on it in Peter Tutthill's book.. Kieft 1953 - 54.. I think that I am correct in saying that Peter knows the chap that owns the engine, but to get it up and running would be very expensive and when done would probably be uncompetitive anyway!

[Dutchy]

See this thread for fascinating stuff on the Brooke-Weston V8 http://forums.autosp...w...eston&st=80

[ry6]

Hello, friends -

I am doing some research into the ownership history of some old Porsche Abarth Carreras, and the name of Ian Fraser Jones popped up. Might anyone in the South African racing community have any knowledge of whether IFJ is still alive, or who might have insight as to his Porsche racing days?

Cheers!

Peter Linsky
Oregon USA

Ian Fraser Jones died a few years ago.

Do you perhaps have the article from Vintage Race Car or the issue no.

I would like to buya copy.

Regards

Rob

[bradbury west]

Rob, PM me with your e mail and I will send the full article. The same applies to Peter Linsky. Pleased to do it.
Roger Lund

[martyn chapman]

Reading through a 1957 issue of Motor Racing I find...



I've not heard of this engine before (not surprising, please be patient with me...) and would like to know a little more about it.

Was there anything unique or special about it? Did it find a place anywhere? Do examples still exist?

hi,why dont you lot read my thread, if you have got an hour to spare ,heading,LADY GODIVA ERA V8,on this forum and you all might learn something,or am i just wasting my time with the whole lot,this and the project. im sure alot of you only read one page on the forum and go to sleep,i for one can't stop when i start going through this forum i find it fascinating reading and love the pics and stories conected to the history of all that has passed and am proud to be conected to such history and nostalgia,with alot of important cars, martyn chapman

[Ivan Saxton]

Everyone appreciates your shared knowledge, Martin. I certainly do, though most of my interest and experience is of cars probably three decades earlier. If you glance at the date on your quote of Ray Bell, you might think that you are a bit over-critical of him; because he started this thread some years before you provided authorative information in the thread you started. Ray obviously does read a lot on this forum and his interests are broad, as you can see from the count of posts he has contributed.
People with interesting cars are assisted every year to bring them to compete at Phillip Island, which is conveniently just before the Grand Prix at Albert Park. I have only been to the latter once, but the visiting cars were able to run on the GP circuit on race day. So if you can contrive to get to Phillip Island, don't miss it. You generally will not encounter many pajeros who don't know what they are talking about.

[martyn chapman]

Everyone appreciates your shared knowledge, Martin. I certainly do, though most of my interest and experience is of cars probably three decades earlier. If you glance at the date on your quote of Ray Bell, you might think that you are a bit over-critical of him; because he started this thread some years before you provided authorative information in the thread you started. Ray obviously does read a lot on this forum and his interests are broad, as you can see from the count of posts he has contributed.
People with interesting cars are assisted every year to bring them to compete at Phillip Island, which is conveniently just before the Grand Prix at Albert Park. I have only been to the latter once, but the visiting cars were able to run on the GP circuit on race day. So if you can contrive to get to Phillip Island, don't miss it. You generally will not encounter many pajeros who don't know what they are talking about.

hi ivan,i certainly didnt meen to offend ray bell if you think i did then i apologise ,but i have read through my quote and i don't see any thing offencive in my answer,it was not directed at him personaly i just wanted to tail on to the end of the thread ,i wish the forum would link the two together ,like you i am more used to the period three decades earlier,ie ERAs bugattis silver arrows,alfas,in fact all racing cars from the thirtys onwards, im sure you do enjoy albert park,but i would never be able to travel that far in a plane being a engineer i do not trust anything that stays in the air longer than an hour and thats to long for me ,besides its to bloody hot out there for me,hee hee,again

[Ivan Saxton]

hi ivan,i certainly didnt meen to offend ray bell if you think i did then i apologise ,but i have read through my quote and i don't see any thing offencive in my answer,it was not directed at him personaly i just wanted to tail on to the end of the thread ,i wish the forum would link the two together ,like you i am more used to the period three decades earlier,ie ERAs bugattis silver arrows,alfas,in fact all racing cars from the thirtys onwards, im sure you do enjoy albert park,but i would never be able to travel that far in a plane being a engineer i do not trust anything that stays in the air longer than an hour and thats to long for me ,besides its to bloody hot out there for me,hee hee,again

Hi Martyn,
There was certainly nothing offensive in what you wrote. I was referring to the date Ray started the other thread in July 2002.
Jet aircaft engines may not last long without plasma-sprayed heat barrier coatings in critical places; and these are really very good. Metco has been one of the main providers of materials and technology for many decades, and I have used oxy-acetylene fired wire and powder feed equipment for about 30 years on my own old cars and to do work for other people.
I was just up on the house roof fitting stabilizers to the water sprays I put on the ridge line when we had that bad fire day last February. It is already too hot to hold onto a steep roof in mid-morning, so I will work on the sheds through most of the day, which are a slope I don't have to crawl over.
My youngest son is making a die for re-making an early Alfa radiator badge approx 1918-1920 for a friend, and practising the vitreous enamelling. I made him a 3 axis milling machine with step motors for computer control; and his computer model and product is stunning.