82 replies to this topic

[Enkei]

What do you think of Ferrari nowadays, has the prancing horse lost most of it's passion now Michael is in control? Ferrari used to be a passionmarque, in F1 too. Remember the old days with Villeneuve, Alesi and stuff? Those were the times! After Michael Schumacher came over, Ferrari is nothing more than an well oiled emotionless machine, with the needed controversy here and there.
I don't need to recall all the teamorder incidents and Jerez'97, but those things are quite responsible for me seeing Ferrari as it is nowadays. Ofcourse Michael is not responsible for all things, the scarlet red disappeared for Marlboro red, and the white bargeboards from this year take it even a step further, making Ferrari lose it's history and it's passion.

This thread is not ment as a Schumacher-bashing place

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Based on your profile, born 1985, what do you know about the "old" days when Villeneuve was driving?

[Enkei]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Based on your profile, born 1985, what do you know about the "old" days when Villeneuve was driving?

I don't know you've ever heard of books? movie materials or something? Saying I was born in 1985 doesn't mean that I haven't read, seen, heard or educated myself about the old days.
But does that matter for this thread? People are so hostile these days :yawn:

[HP]

Michael and Ferrari not passionate about racing?

There are not many drivers I could think of that wrap up a championship, and give their all in the next race, even if it's the drivers home race. Michael after the chequered flag: "Thanks, guys, .... Woo, hard work...".

[pUs]

Originally posted by Enkei
and the white bargeboards from this year take it even a step further, making Ferrari lose it's history and it's passion.
This thread is not ment as a Schumacher-bashing place

Look at the Ferraris that Lauda drove during his prime time at Ferrari. Of course, that might be too far away in time for you .. . But view some images of the 1993 Ferrari then. That "white colour" argument suddenly don't make any sense, now does it?

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Enkei
People are so hostile these days

How dare you even suggest that...

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Did want to be hostile, but you said "Remember the......." Anyways.
All the current teams have changed character and the sport is totally diff. these days anyways.
Clinical precision, efficient decsision-making and excessive commercialism.
LDM was sporting director in the "old days", and he is extremely enthusiastic about what MS brought to Ferrari in the past seven years. Enzo was ruthless as well when he wanted to be. Controversies and team orders were also present.
But Enzo said it perfectly about success:

» » Dietro il successo c'è qualcosa di terribile. Gli italiani perdonano tutto, i ladri, gli assassini, meno il successo « «

Behind success there is something terrible. Italians forgive everything, thiefs and assassins, but success is not [less] forgiven.

He was so damn right (substitute italian w/ a global disenfranchised audience).

[Enkei]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Did want to be hostile, but you said "Remember the......." Anyways.
All the current teams have changed character and the sport is totally diff. these days anyways.
Clinical precision, efficient decsision-making and excessive commercialism.
LDM was sporting director in the "old days", and he is extremely enthusiastic about what MS brought to Ferrari in the past seven years. Enzo was ruthless as well when he wanted to be. Controversies and team orders were also present.
But Enzo said it perfectly about success:



Behind success there is something terrible. Italians forgive everything, thiefs and assassins, but success is not [less] forgiven.

He was so damn right (substitute italian w/ a global disenfranchised audience).

If Enzo was alive Ferrari would probably not have enjoyed the domination they've got nowadays. I don't think Enzo would have wanted Schumacher for the pricetag he's got. Enzo would have put the money into the car development and it would have likely taken them more than 21 years to be WC again. But Enzo's dead and burried now, Di Montezemelo is sporting director know and he made the right choice, I think :

[HP]

Originally posted by Enkei


If Enzo was alive Ferrari would probably not have enjoyed the domination they've got nowadays. I don't think Enzo would have wanted Schumacher for the pricetag he's got. Enzo would have put the money into the car development and it would have likely taken them more than 21 years to be WC again. But Enzo's dead and burried now, Di Montezemelo is sporting director know and he made the right choice, I think :

It is Malboro who pays for Michaels salary. If Marlboro's money would otherwise go into Ferrari funds, I'm not sure. I'm sure that Enzo would have cringed at the amount of money, but he certainly would enjoy Ferraris domination. And as they say: Success has it's price.

[logic]

Michael is a robot with 5million$ smile (and big white teeths)

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Enkei, with all due respect, you have to get your facts right before recalling the "good old days".
Phillip Morris pretty much pays MS's salary, and to say that Enzo would not enjoy such domination is the most ludicrous thing I have heard in quite a while. Why do you think the man got into this business in the first place? He was ambitious, ruthless and driven by success. But I am quite positive that u are going to respond, "well its the way MS wins that Enzo would not have approved" I presume?

[Frank R. Champs]

I have to laugh when people say, "If Enzo were alive today, he would not be happy with Ferrari's current state." Sure, he wouldn't be happy with dominating the field so decisively that he can easily win the championship at the halfway point of the season. After all, he wasn't in F1 to win, he was just in it for the passion. Give me a break. The team and the Tifosi are plenty passionate about destroying the opposition.

Frank

[Smooth]

I read a quote from Frentzen the other day about Schumacher, M:

After the bitter dissapointment he suffered in the last race in 1998, at Suzuka (Suffering a hydraulic at the start, and a puncture after climbing through the field) MS stayed on at Suzuka to test the Bridgestone tires on Tuesday, after the race, as all Goodyear teams were doing. Most drivers drove around at 7/10ths on the , gathering some data for the teams to go into the offseason with. HHF comments that MS was out, and immediatly on the edge, running 100%. I think most would have forgiven him for going through the motions, but he didn't.

I think saying he, and his team, lack a passion for racing is shortsighted.

[AD]

Last I heard, all F1 teams are in to win. Schumacher turned Ferrari from an average team into the current fantastic team that Ferrari and MS are.

[Nikolas Garth]

Originally posted by Enkei
What do you think of Ferrari nowadays, has the prancing horse lost most of it's passion now Michael is in control? Ferrari used to be a passionmarque, in F1 too. Remember the old days with Villeneuve, Alesi and stuff? Those were the times! After Michael Schumacher came over, Ferrari is nothing more than an well oiled emotionless machine, with the needed controversy here and there.
I don't need to recall all the teamorder incidents and Jerez'97, but those things are quite responsible for me seeing Ferrari as it is nowadays. Ofcourse Michael is not responsible for all things, the scarlet red disappeared for Marlboro red, and the white bargeboards from this year take it even a step further, making Ferrari lose it's history and it's passion.

Bizarre thread and interpretations. Just as well you are young.

[Maranello Man]

Originally posted by Smooth
I read a quote from Frentzen the other day about Schumacher, M:

After the bitter dissapointment he suffered in the last race in 1998, at Suzuka (Suffering a hydraulic at the start, and a puncture after climbing through the field) MS stayed on at Suzuka to test the Bridgestone tires on Tuesday, after the race, as all Goodyear teams were doing. Most drivers drove around at 7/10ths on the , gathering some data for the teams to go into the offseason with. HHF comments that MS was out, and immediatly on the edge, running 100%. I think most would have forgiven him for going through the motions, but he didn't.

I think saying he, and his team, lack a passion for racing is shortsighted.

More than shortsighted it's maybe even a STUPID statement to make...There's always someone looking to diccredit anything MS and ferari does. No one is even near them at this moment in F1 history.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Enkei

If Enzo was alive Ferrari would probably not have enjoyed the domination they've got nowadays.

Why not? Enzo quite enjoyed winning even if it took hiring a good driver (and don't forget that Marlboro is footing most of the bill, an arrangement that Enzo would have found all too familiar),

I don't think Enzo would have wanted Schumacher for the pricetag he's got.

He didn't like Fangio's pricetag either, but he hired him all the same. In fact drivers like Alboreto and Alesi were paid quite handsome salaries when Enzo was still around.

Enzo would have put the money into the car development and it would have likely taken them more than 21 years to be WC again.

I don't see how they could possible put more money/emphasis in development, unless they were to research liqui-cooled pitcrew suits of course. The second part is anybodies guess of course.

But Enzo's dead and burried now, Di Montezemelo is sporting director know and he made the right choice, I think :

Luca also held that post before, in Enzo's days, and he was quite succesfull at the time (but it did require a rather expensive driver...) so I think Enzo would have been quite happy with this arrangement.



Last of all, I dug up this rather nice quote that summarises the passion that was the Scuderia Ferrari in the thirties:

"We drove, naturally, from race to race; and whenever we found a better way to go, or a nicer hotel to stay along the way, or a better restaurant, we would tell each other about it. We had quite a grapevine. After a race, our first thought always was, where do we eat? We were all gourmets, we all loved to dine well and tell stories and unwind. Only with Scuderia Ferrari, perhaps, was this different, only when working with Enzo Ferrari did a race driver feel a little bit like a businessman. Otherwise he certainly did not." René Dreyfus

Karl Ludvigsen, Classic Grand Prix Cars - the front-engined formula 1 era 1906-1960: pp74

[tifoso]

Originally posted by Maranello Man
More than shortsighted it's maybe even a STUPID statement to make...There's always someone looking to diccredit anything MS and ferari does. No one is even near them at this moment in F1 history.

I have to agree. How can anyone say the Ferrari operation of today isn't passionate about racing? Do you not see Michael's jumps on the podium? Do you not see the pit crew swarming to the pit wall to congratulate him as he takes the checkered flag? Do you not see them massing under the podium to catch the champagne? The current Ferrari management team have merely taken that passion and channeled it towards efficiency...something the Ferrari teams of old rarely had. Foxbat makes excellent points about how Enzo would have felt about this current domination and Schumacher.

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Enkei
....Remember the old days with Villeneuve, Alesi and stuff? Those were the times!....Ofcourse Michael is not responsible for all things, the scarlet red disappeared for Marlboro red, and the white bargeboards from this year take it even a step further, making Ferrari lose it's history and it's passion.....

I bet you don't remember Villeneuve times either.
And about Alesi times, there's nothing much to remember.
As are many things in life, stuff about passion, scarlet red colour, Villeneuve, etc. are just another myth.
I alwast tke 1975 Ferrari as an example of a Ferrari with most area of white colour of all of them. I don't see anyone complaining.
About red: in the early days, Ferraris were painted in just about any red they could find in nearby colour shop. The colour wasn't standardized. Today's red is absolutely stunning sen in live. And it's very different from 1980s Marlboro McLaren red.

Times change and the past is rarely better.
All that whinning is just silly.

Hrvoje

P.S.: now I read the rest of the thread and see you were born in 1985. I knew it! Anyone born early enough would never write such nonsense.
But I see that you were probably misunderstood when you said Ferrari wouldn't enjoy such dominance. You probably ment the team wouldn't be as dominant as it is and most of the posters understood it that Enzo wouldn't like the dominance.

[chooch]

Originally posted by tifoso

I have to agree. How can anyone say the Ferrari operation of today isn't passionate about racing? Do you not see Michael's jumps on the podium?

}}HAHHAHAHAH M$ victory jumps on the podium are pure photo ops. Do you recall Fangio, Moss, Stewart, Jim Clark, Gilles, Senna Prost jumping like idiots on the podium to get their pics snapped?

Do you not see the pit crew swarming to the pit wall to congratulate him as he takes the checkered flag?

}} Theyre just congratulating the most powerful man in F1. WOuldnt you kiss the boss ass to keep your job?

Do you not see them massing under the podium to catch the champagne?


}} See above

The current Ferrari management team have merely taken that passion and channeled it towards efficiency

}}}} HAHHHAHAHA Yeah Rubens gets a lot of that "efficency"

...something the Ferrari teams of old rarely had. Foxbat makes excellent points about how Enzo would have felt about this current domination and Schumacher.

}}}}Enzo would have fired him after Jerez and Irvine would have won in 99.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by chooch


Irvine would have won in 99.

For that to happen Eddie would have had to win the final race, how likely was that?

[Frank R. Champs]

Originally posted by chooch


}}}}Enzo would have fired him after Jerez and Irvine would have won in 99.

If Enzo would have fired MS after Jerez, MS would have gone to McLaren and won his 5 championships even sooner than he did now.

Frank

[Group B]

Hmm, no passion on the pit wall then, none at all on the podium, and as for the crowd... Do you actually watch the race?

Another mindless, groundless and generally pathetic flame bait thread from a silly little boy who needs to have a bitch because results aren't going his way at the moment.

[vogtsophob]

Ferrari is not the only team that has changed since the good old days.
For example, Mclarens new Parontheon (or how its called) isn't exacly build in the true
garagista spirit, is it?

[mhferrari]

Ferrari still has passion.

Perhaps they win so much now that from race to race there is the big Ferrari celebration more often, instead of years past where there was one Ferrari race win a season, such as back in the days of Alesi and Berger.

I probably confused you all but I mean that the Ferrari passion in celebrating victories is more commonplace than prior years, so it seems less passionate, but in reality is as passionate as before.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Group B
Hmm, no passion on the pit wall then, none at all on the podium, and as for the crowd... Do you actually watch the race?

Another mindless, groundless and generally pathetic flame bait thread from a silly little boy who needs to have a bitch because results aren't going his way at the moment.

Yup.
Sounds like a Ronzo Dennis-like attitude.

[Electric Sheep]

All the Ferrari fans on here seem to be getting very bitchy. Poor babies.

Ah well, perhaps one day we will all be assimilated into Schumacherists and blindly follow la Schuederia with unquestioning obediance and good faith.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Electric Sheep
All the Ferrari fans on here seem to be getting very bitchy. Poor babies.

Ah well, perhaps one day we will all be assimilated into Schumacherists and blindly follow la Schuederia with unquestioning obediance and good faith.

WTF is the problem? Someone calls the Ferrari team crap and a disgrace to it's own history, and the fans respond to that and they're bitchy cry-babies?
I guess that by winning we have lost the right to be critical of others.

[orange]

my few cents

I really enjoyed MS-Ferrari thru 98-00.
Ferrari/MS had a goal , something to prove.
Combined that with MS being H&S above EI , team orders seemed irrelevent.

The 00 victory was hard fought and sweet.
MS&Co built up a great team in Ferrari as the domination shows.

But what is passion ?
Passion is not merely winning. Those passionate tifosi fans were straved for 21 yrs and still were loyal. 00 provided well deserved break for all.
But why 01/02 Austria episodes , with MS the success has come with a price.Win for MS at an cost !!
Not that its not correct , but I fail to see that as passion.

Passion is not merely winning , its how you win and more importantly how you lose.
MS has brought unparralled success to Ferrari , but at the cost of passion (atleast a touch of it )

[baddog]

Once again someone falls into the trap of mistaking incompetence combined with charm for Passion.

Enzo Ferrari would have been delighted with Ferrari's current state. He was a big fan of Luca di Montezemolo, and the idea of a driver who didnt fail then blame his precious red cars for it all the time would have been a great change for him from most of his hirelings. Enzo was all about glory for the scuderia, and they have that in spades right now. And money? He would have paid the going rate to get what he needed, and loved the fact that someone else was footing the bill.

Shaun

[Electric Sheep]

Originally posted by Foxbat


WTF is the problem? Someone calls the Ferrari team crap and a disgrace to it's own history, and the fans respond to that and they're bitchy cry-babies?
I guess that by winning we have lost the right to be critical of others.

Stupid comments like this are the problem:

Based on your profile, born 1985, what do you know about the "old" days when Villeneuve was driving?

I was born in 1975, yet I know stuff that happened before I was born. I read books. I read posts on here from more knowledgable people (whoever they are). Obviously Bruno or whatever his name is hasn't ever heard of books, or failing that, he just reads ones with pictures in them, such as Lisa Dennis's "Mac and Lauren" books. His comment was unnecessarily patronising and narrow-minded.

I don't think he was calling Ferrari crap. He was asking a genuine question. Nigel Roebuck, respected journalist and someone who knows his stuff thinks the passion has gone out of Ferrari since Enzo died. Now he just thinks Ferrari are just as corporate as the rest of them. Were Ferrari as controversial (whether deserving (Jerez 1997) or not (France 2002)) in the past?

The Tifosi are for me the link with Ferrari's past. Well, not all of them, but most of them . They still have the passion, despite the team's new-found cosmopolitanism and professionalism (cf. early 1990s). Ferrari are doing great and deserve their success. Doesn't mean they are above criticism.

It seems to me that a number of Ferrari fans on here have massive chips on their shoulders and seem unable to tolerate dissent or negative posting on "their" beloved team. If you look at my profile, you'll notice I'm a Williams/McLaren fan (I also like Rubens, a Ferrari driver. Go figure). Feel free to criticise them as much as you like. I can take it. Can you?

[badri]

Electric Sheep, what controversy in France 2002?
The one that Ron "I won't make a protest, but the stewards ought to take a look" Dennis,
tried to create?

Well at least we know who's really reading the adventures of Mac & Lauren, now

[HP]

Originally posted by Electric Sheep

I was born in 1975, yet I know stuff that happened before I was born. I read books. I read posts on here from more knowledgable people (whoever they are). Obviously Bruno or whatever his name is hasn't ever heard of books, or failing that, he just reads ones with pictures in them, such as Lisa Dennis's "Mac and Lauren" books. His comment was unnecessarily patronising and narrow-minded.

In all fairness, being educated by others never works too well, no matter who the person is. To paraphrase an ancient book. "I have heard about you, but now my eyes have seen you." First hand experience is so much different. If you followed the soccer worldchampionship on yahoo it was quite funny. The German version try to talk down Brazil performances, while the English version was much more positive (and IMO) much more accurate. Same station, different people reporting with their own motives.

Back to F1. Team orders were evident in Enzo's time as well, Enzo treated Gilles almost like his own son. Maybe that was one reason why Didier Pironi disobyed team orders. That there was less vocal resentment (like MH vs. DC, MS vs. RB) is that information wasn't as overwhelming available as today, and Ferrari and Gilles weren't as successful as Ferrari and Michael are today. But why do you think Enzo had the nickname "Il commendatore" (sp?) ?

My take on your observations is that F1 overall has lost some of it's passion. For example Senna never drove for Ferrrai, but see some of the opinions on him in the nostalgia forum, that gives you an idea what those F1 veterans think about Sennas time. It's not Senna fault at all, it's just that times in F1 have been changing and while the sport has become more accessible, it has lost some of it's passion. To please a large audience that has to happen. I've just read an interesting comment in the nostalgia forum which goes along the following thought: There was more change in earlier times, because F1 was less safe, and drivers had to be replaced because of fatal crashes. There was less continuity, more inpredicatability. That also means that the chances of the current domination was less likely to happen, thus more chances for any team and driver to win races and titles. That in turn I think leads to more passion for us fans. You also had to grieve for some drivers which bonds you more to the sport in general, as weird it may sound. Today's safety as much as we want it, it's part of the overall decline in passion. In earlier decades you were sure that drivers had quite some courage, as they were facing death at every turn, but that feeling has gone, as we've seen to crashes this and last year, that barring a miracle would have been fatal (Fisi and Burti). But again I don't think anyone here wants to see another driver dying, but we don't value drivers as the dare-devils as they once were.

[Dudley]

We don't KNOW what Enzo would have liked, as HP pointed out, book learning has its flaws and i don't think any of us met him...

However he wanted to win. He'd go for team orders when it suited him. Even ordering drivers in the 1950s to abandon perfectly healthy cars to let their teammates do better in them.

http://www.forix.com...76/03001_ry.jpg

EEEVIIIILLLLL!;)

[Peeko]

Originally posted by Foxbat
He didn't like Fangio's pricetag either, but he hired him all the same. In fact drivers like Alboreto and Alesi were paid quite handsome salaries when Enzo was still around.

??

[black magic]

yup enzo would have hated it. sales for ferraris inctreasing each year despite the global slump in car sales and company profits - the original motive for him entering racing.

yup would have hated watching michael thrashing his car day in day out during 1998/ 1999.

yup would have hated all the winning. no he would have yearned for the failures of the alesi era.

I mean be honest. all those people waving red flags and wearing schumacher caps at monza - they're not real fans.

yup enzo would have hated looking out form the pits at a total sea of red and watching his beloved car LAPPING the despised rival mercedes at their home track at the corner in front of their own named stand.

yup would have hated it. that moment would ahve been worth 21 years of waiting alone. well nearly.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Peeko


??

:slap forehead: :repeat: Alesi was obviously only hired after Enzo's dead, I had been thinking about Berger already driving for Ferrari when the Old Man was still around and associated him with Alesi rather than Alboreto

[chrisj]

I've been a Ferrari fan for nearly 30 years, and as far as I'm concerned, this is THE golden age. Finally, they are reaping the benefits of years of hard work and disappointment. I think it's the continuity of talented people on the technical side, in management and of course Michael. No way would I want to go back to the loser days of the past. Results matter. That old tart Nigel Roebuck never has anything good to say about the current Ferrari set up, but this is the best team anyone has ever assembled. I'm enjoying every minute of it and lets hope it lasts.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Enkei
What do you think of Ferrari nowadays, has the prancing horse lost most of it's passion now Michael is in control? Ferrari used to be a passionmarque, in F1 too. Remember the old days with Villeneuve, Alesi and stuff? Those were the times!

Ferrari looked great with Mansell driving it, and to some extent Prost. Alesi was a total waist for the red cars as was Berger. Those were the days? I'm not going to pretend I have any memories of Gilles driving the Ferrari, the only memory I have was as a little boy how my father and I watched his tracig accident in Zolder. That made an everlasting impact.

Please.....

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Enkei
Ofcourse Michael is not responsible for all things, the scarlet red disappeared for Marlboro red, and the white bargeboards from this year take it even a step further, making Ferrari lose it's history and it's passion.

A step futher from what?
If you look at historic racing books, u will notice that white paint was present in abundance on several Ferrari models (312B2, the 1975 312T just to mention a few) and some Ferrari's were raced (for political reasons) with the NART colours (blue and white).

[Peter Perfect]

I only started following F1 from the late eighties so I'd never seen Ferrari win championships until just recently. However, my impression of Enzo Ferrari was that he would never have been in charge of the current team. By that I mean that internal feuding and politics seemed to go hand-in-hand with Ferrari until Enzo died. There then followed a period where Ferrari seemed to lack a leader to focus on, their cars were good but they never really looked like dominating ala McLaren/Williams. When MS joined I think they were just starting to snap out of it, with MS onboard (a proven 2xWDC) I think they refound their focus (MS isn't the leader in Ferrari i.e. he doesn't order everyone else around, but I think the team realise that he's able to get the best out of any car they build and so he's become the focus of the team). MS has been used as a catalyst to rebuild the team, the big question will be 'is the team now strong enough to cope when MS decides to retire'?

In short, the current team(with all the professionalism and team-togetherness) would never have existed had Enzo still been in charge.(IMHO ;))

[Dudley]

To be fair, the red was red then

but why Ferrari going orange is any different than Minardi not being red, Jaguar not being Silver (or whatever US is), McLaren and Williams not being green etc I don't know.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Dudley
To be fair, the red was red then

but why Ferrari going orange is any different than Minardi not being red, Jaguar not being Silver (or whatever US is), McLaren and Williams not being green etc I don't know.

Ferrari is actually still red, daygloo red but who cares. While the only orange on McLaren is the swoosh (rumour has it that Ron Dennis ate the old mascot)

[Don Capps]

From the Summer of 1951 until the Winter of 1953/1954, Scuderia Ferrari were the center of attention of pretty much everybody with a strong interest in motor racing. The Alberto Ascari/ Ferrari duo was just unbelieveable. Of the eight events counting towards the CSI WDC for the 1952 season, Ascari drove in seven of them and won six on them -- on the trot. In addition, of the eight rounds in the Grands Prix de France series, one of which was the GP de l'ACF at Rouen, Ascari won five of them. Plus, Ferrari was a powerhouse in the sports car field as well.

At some point Ferrari will knocked off its perch by someone and then try to find its way back to the top. It is important to bear in mind that Ferrari has not made GP/F1 its sole focus in racing since it dropped out of sports car racing in the early 1970's -- after the 1972 season if I recall -- and did achieve considerable success with Niki Lauda from 1974 to 1977 and then, of course, with Jody Scheckter and Gilles Villeneuve in 1979. Then two decades of wandering in the wilderness despite getting close a few times -- Alboreto led the WDC well into the mid-season of 1985.

In 1958, the Dino was a wonderful machine, but by late 1959 the tide was certainly changing. The success of 1961 actually carried over to the early months of 1962 before the internal bickering and fighting imploded and the team faded like a rock.

Surtees came aboard in 1963 and helped drag the team to a championship in 1964, only to once again fade in 1965.

The 1966 season was Ferrari's to lose -- and they did. The blow up which led to Surtees leaving, the waffling and indecision in the wake of his departure, all of which was avoidable.

The 1970 season with the new Boxer-12 was aided in part by the miserable reliability of the Cosworth DFV's -- the result of negligance on the part of a worker when making engine parts which slipped into the engines and caused them to fail. The team's performance slid right off until it hit rock bottom in 1973.

The current discussion concerning the nature of the team needs to realize that the basic approach of Ferrari to F1 has changed from what it once was. Enzo Ferrari was often as much the problem as he was the genius behind the team. He was mercurial, perceptive, stubborn, and much, much more, with being manipulative and a master of managing his image being some of the more notable of his traits.

The current version of the Scuderia Ferrari would probably never have come about with Ferrari still above ground and capable of becoming involved. He loved intrigue, mind games, power plays, and knew how to play an audience like the maestro he was. Much of the tauted Ferrari heritage is truly a myth and absolute baloney (bologna....). However, there seems to be such a love of the image that any such truths are simply irreleveant.

The resources which has put Ferrari at the top of the heap are considerable. The expenditures of Fiat and Marlboro over the past several season would perhaps exceed numbers that are unmimaginable to most. However, that is how the game is played today and Ferrari played it to near perfection.

There is always the unspoken thought that one can outlast their welcome and what if this Ferrari domination should continue for several more seasons, first with Schumacher and then his successor? Race fans are a fickle lot....

[VAR1016]

Quote:

But why do you think Enzo had the nickname "Il commendatore" (sp?) ?

_________________________________________________________________

This was not a nickname; it was an honour: "Commendatore" a rank just below a Knight (I've forgotten the Italian word for knight - Cavaliere perhaps?

VAR1016

[Don Capps]

A title which was conferred by the Fascist government and which he never used after that group fell from power in 1943 -- not that he used it much before then.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Italy is (was) a nation of titles.
Dottore (PhD), Raggioniere, Commendatore.
Even a parking lot attendant has a title (Capo). A sign of respect for various professions and the people whom undertake them, no matter their economic or social status.
Commendatore (industry/business-related title) was his "title", "Il Drake" was his nick-name.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Italy is (was) a nation of titles.

It is, indeed. In my circles, I'm called "Il Spugna." a.k.a. The Spunge. Don't try to figure out why.

Oh, BTW, I think Ferrari is as passionate about its racing as it's ever been -- if not more. "Professionalism" and "Passion" are not mutually exclusive terms.

[mhferrari]

Commendatore is a title, which is techincally non-existent in its knightly meaning, though it still is used as a title by those entitled to it. It's non-existence is due to the abdication of the House of Savoia in 1946, where the Italian state abolished titles of nobility, yet they still exist, yet not formally recognized by the state.

I thought Commendatore was above knight, but that shows how my knowledge of Italian nobility is.

But indeed it is not a strictly noblity-based title, but that is where the origin is from.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by mhferrari
Commendatore is a title, which is techincally non-existent in its knightly meaning, though it still is used as a title by those entitled to it. It's non-existence is due to the abdication of the House of Savoia in 1946, where the Italian state abolished titles of nobility, yet they still exist, yet not formally recognized by the state.

I thought Commendatore was above knight, but that shows how my knowledge of Italian nobility is.

But indeed it is not a strictly noblity-based title, but that is where the origin is from.

Your knowledge is probably as good as mine! Perhaps a real Italian Tifoso (or Tifosa perhaps) can enlighten us in the orders of Italian chivalry?

Personally I think it excellent that someone with a degree in engineering merits the title "Ingeniere", "Dottore Ingeniere", or even "Professore Ingeniere".

It is a shame that for so long the word "engineer" has been so devalued in England. Here we call the man who comes to fix the photocopier or the coffee machine an "engineer" which, of course, is rubbish (unless of course he is a real engineer moonlighting!)

VAR1016