What became of the Brabham Indy cars, anyone?
So far I can trace:
BT12: one built in 1964 for John Zink with 4.2 Offy engine, raced by Jim McElreath in 1964 and 1965, unraced backup at Indy in 1966 and 1967, no info thereafter. Another story says the original BT12 was wrecked in 1964, and a replica built by Dennie Moore raced in 1965? Moore definitely built a replica with a Ford DOHC in 1966.
BT25 or BT25A (which is correct?): two built in 1968 for MRD works team with 4.2 Repco-Brabham engine, and raced through 1969. One entered as backup at Indy in 1970, but not used. Then, possibly, one fitted with Chevrolet stock-block for Bill Simpson, and one with turbocharged Offy for Patrick-Michner team????????????????????
BT32: one built in 1970 for MRD works team with turbocharged Offy engine, used by Black Jack at Indy and Yarbrough at Ontario, then, possibly, in 1971 to Agajanian-Faas and subsequently to John Martin?????????????????????
Brabham Indy cars
Started by
fines
, Jul 29 2002 18:28
85 replies to this topic
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#2
Mac Lark
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Posted 29 July 2002 - 19:36
There's a BT12 in the Indianapolis Motor Spedway Museum and a BT25 at Donington.
#3
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 July 2002 - 23:02
And this one is?
It's been lovingly restored over the past three or four years... looked pretty genuine to me, Jack seemed to give it the nod of approval.
It's been lovingly restored over the past three or four years... looked pretty genuine to me, Jack seemed to give it the nod of approval.
#4
Allen Brown
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Posted 30 July 2002 - 07:53
Michael
The BT12 and its copies are a particluar interest of mine. They are staggeringly complex!
The "real" BT12 was driven for the rest of the 1964 USAC season by Jim McElreath. In September it was hired by Firestone for tyre testing and was badly damaged in an accident. It was repaired by Zink mechanic Dennie Moore and resumed the series but was damaged again in a race at Trenton. At this stage John Zink had Clint Brawner manufacture a replica of the car, and the BT12 was finally laid to rest.
Brawner also built, with Zink's permission, a copy of the BT12 for for his own Dean Van Lines team. This car was raced with extraordinary success from 1965 to 1967 by Mario Andretti.
In total, five direct copies seem to have been built, two for Zink, two for Dean Van Lines and a fifth, in 1990, built by Tom Brawner, Clint's nephew, as a copy of the 1965 Andretti "Hawk". I think this is the one now racing in historics.
The "real" BT12 stayed in Brawner's workshops until used by Tom for his copy. It was then sold to Mike Welland in Vancouver. Not quite sure where it is now but I guess it's the one in the pictures.
These are the direct copies. There were many more indirect copies done.
Allen
The BT12 and its copies are a particluar interest of mine. They are staggeringly complex!
The "real" BT12 was driven for the rest of the 1964 USAC season by Jim McElreath. In September it was hired by Firestone for tyre testing and was badly damaged in an accident. It was repaired by Zink mechanic Dennie Moore and resumed the series but was damaged again in a race at Trenton. At this stage John Zink had Clint Brawner manufacture a replica of the car, and the BT12 was finally laid to rest.
Brawner also built, with Zink's permission, a copy of the BT12 for for his own Dean Van Lines team. This car was raced with extraordinary success from 1965 to 1967 by Mario Andretti.
In total, five direct copies seem to have been built, two for Zink, two for Dean Van Lines and a fifth, in 1990, built by Tom Brawner, Clint's nephew, as a copy of the 1965 Andretti "Hawk". I think this is the one now racing in historics.
The "real" BT12 stayed in Brawner's workshops until used by Tom for his copy. It was then sold to Mike Welland in Vancouver. Not quite sure where it is now but I guess it's the one in the pictures.
These are the direct copies. There were many more indirect copies done.
Allen
#5
fines
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Posted 30 July 2002 - 18:18
That's one version the story goes, another has Dennie Moore built both initial copies (the Zink and the Hawk). I don't think either is true, but Moore and Brawner each built their own cars. Another version goes that the original blue prints (or maybe copies?) passed around the Indy car community, from which Brawner built his adaption. Also, the story about the Trenton crash doesn't fit properly, I believe the car was crashed at a test session after the September race at Trenton in '64. That would be the reason why McElreath showed up in his dirt car at Phoenix in November (your site is in error here, Allen - I have a picture to prove it!).
If the 1965 car was indeed a replica, then that would mean the original BT12 never won a race. Heck, it never even finished one except for that Trenton race where it was no less than 45 laps down!
If the 1965 car was indeed a replica, then that would mean the original BT12 never won a race. Heck, it never even finished one except for that Trenton race where it was no less than 45 laps down!
#6
fines
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Posted 31 July 2002 - 15:40
Ooops, sorry Allen! 
I just checked and you have it alright, no Brabham at Phoenix!
And, of course, McElreath also "finished" the Milwaukee 200, even if he was 13 laps down... Must have my memory cells readjusted!
But, I am a little disappointed that you (or anyone else, for that matter!) don't have any information about the other three Brabhams! I mean, the racing history of these chassis - I'm not particularly interested in their retirement homes...
I just checked and you have it alright, no Brabham at Phoenix!
And, of course, McElreath also "finished" the Milwaukee 200, even if he was 13 laps down... Must have my memory cells readjusted!
But, I am a little disappointed that you (or anyone else, for that matter!) don't have any information about the other three Brabhams! I mean, the racing history of these chassis - I'm not particularly interested in their retirement homes...
#7
Allen Brown
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 20:42
Originally posted by fines
... your site is in error here, Allen - I have a picture to prove it! ...
Nuff said.Originally posted by fines
Ooops, sorry Allen!
I would love to do that but I don't have the time, energy or resource to get a database of Indy results so that I can start picking out individual cars. The F1 database I use took years to collate, the Can-Am database took several years, even with all Martin's hard work, and the F5000 database is also taking years, despite the hard work of Wolfgang. And an Indy/USAC database would probably be four times the size even if I restrict myself to a 1961-1983 period.Originally posted by fines
But, I am a little disappointed that you (or anyone else, for that matter!) don't have any information about the other three Brabhams! I mean, the racing history of these chassis - I'm not particularly interested in their retirement homes...
Maybe one day. After all, I'm only 41 so I've got a few good years left in me yet
Allen
#8
Doug Nye
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Posted 01 August 2002 - 21:17
After 41 Allen each of those years last mere weeks. I'm told that after 61 they last mere days.....get after it!!!! 
!!!!!!
DCN
!!!!!!DCN
#9
fines
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 14:59
Hey Allen, don't you know I'm working on that USAC database!!! 
You'll get it as soon as I'm "reasonably" finished.;)
You'll get it as soon as I'm "reasonably" finished.;)
#10
Allen Brown
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 22:10
Michael - you think I'd forget something like that?
And thanks Doug for cheering me up!
Anyone like to offer any information on all those other BT12 copies? I know the Mongoose was a copy of the ex-Siffert BT11 but I don't I don't know how any of the other came to be.
Allen
And thanks Doug for cheering me up!
Anyone like to offer any information on all those other BT12 copies? I know the Mongoose was a copy of the ex-Siffert BT11 but I don't I don't know how any of the other came to be.
Allen
#11
Doug Nye
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 22:26
From one of the Indy 500 media guides:
DAVE LAYCOCK...began his racing career in 1957 as a helper for Herb Porter who was then chief mechanic on cars owned by Roger Wolcott..worked for Porter until the end of the 1959 season...then joined Wally Meskowski building two roadsters for Indianapolis...took over as chief mechanic on the Bill Forbes Special driven byBobby Grim...who won the Syracuse, N.Y. race...Dave was only 21 years old and was the youngest mechanic evr to prepare a winning car for a championship race... (that's quite a claim isn't it?)
Continued as chief mechanic for Bill Forbes - 1963 Jimmy McElreath 6th at the Speedway, 3rd points standings, and 1964 Lloyd Ruby 3rd at the Speedway, winner at Phoenix and 3rd in the point standings.
In 1966 Dave and Lloyd ran for AAR - fastest Eagle at Indy - led at 150 laps by 48secs when black-flagged because of an oil leak...
Dave started work for the Gene White Tire Co for 1967 and his first assignment was to build four new cars for the Championship Trail. The cars were of tubular steel construction and contained several parts that were designed and fabricated in Indianapolis...Ruby set new one-lap record in qualification and led all 150 laps of the race. The new chassis was powered by a turbocharged Offy and was called a 'Mongose'...small animal noted for its speed and agility.
All four cars were entered at the Speedway...Ruby and George Snider made the race - Yarbrough wrecked in practice, Bobby Johns missed the race. Ruby won Langhorne...
One new Mongose was built for the 1968 season, similar to the others but narrower and contained several modifications...Ruby was 5th fastest qualifier, led race at 174 laps when a faulty coil caused a pit stop of over six minutes...finished 5th.
Bobby Grim 10th in his Mongose.
Laycock built new car of wedge design and monocoque construction for 1969...Ruby led the 500 by over a lap when he came in for a second pit stop...started moving before rear fuelling hose disconnected and pulled the fitting loose from the side of the car...
Dave building two new cars for 1970 - of tubular steel construction and modified wedge design....Ruby driver again - blah blah blah...
DCN
DAVE LAYCOCK...began his racing career in 1957 as a helper for Herb Porter who was then chief mechanic on cars owned by Roger Wolcott..worked for Porter until the end of the 1959 season...then joined Wally Meskowski building two roadsters for Indianapolis...took over as chief mechanic on the Bill Forbes Special driven byBobby Grim...who won the Syracuse, N.Y. race...Dave was only 21 years old and was the youngest mechanic evr to prepare a winning car for a championship race... (that's quite a claim isn't it?)
Continued as chief mechanic for Bill Forbes - 1963 Jimmy McElreath 6th at the Speedway, 3rd points standings, and 1964 Lloyd Ruby 3rd at the Speedway, winner at Phoenix and 3rd in the point standings.
In 1966 Dave and Lloyd ran for AAR - fastest Eagle at Indy - led at 150 laps by 48secs when black-flagged because of an oil leak...
Dave started work for the Gene White Tire Co for 1967 and his first assignment was to build four new cars for the Championship Trail. The cars were of tubular steel construction and contained several parts that were designed and fabricated in Indianapolis...Ruby set new one-lap record in qualification and led all 150 laps of the race. The new chassis was powered by a turbocharged Offy and was called a 'Mongose'...small animal noted for its speed and agility.
All four cars were entered at the Speedway...Ruby and George Snider made the race - Yarbrough wrecked in practice, Bobby Johns missed the race. Ruby won Langhorne...
One new Mongose was built for the 1968 season, similar to the others but narrower and contained several modifications...Ruby was 5th fastest qualifier, led race at 174 laps when a faulty coil caused a pit stop of over six minutes...finished 5th.
Bobby Grim 10th in his Mongose.
Laycock built new car of wedge design and monocoque construction for 1969...Ruby led the 500 by over a lap when he came in for a second pit stop...started moving before rear fuelling hose disconnected and pulled the fitting loose from the side of the car...
Dave building two new cars for 1970 - of tubular steel construction and modified wedge design....Ruby driver again - blah blah blah...
DCN
#12
Gerr
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Posted 02 August 2002 - 23:40
fines, There is an article on Tom Brawner's replica BT12/Hawk by Joe Scalzo in "Circle Track" magazine, July '91. Scalzo tells about the Zink Brabham being smashed at the Firestone test at Indy in late '64, Clint Brawner wanting to buy the remains and then making a deal to build two copies, one for Zink/Dennie Moore/McElreath and one for himself/Al Dean/Mario to campaign in 1965 (both cars with Ford engines). The copies were built in Brawner's shop on Seventh Street in Phoenix. Jim McGee assisted, Eddie Kuzma fabricated the nose,cowl,tanks and tail, Mario Andretti did the welding.
The Brabham BT12 chassis sat in the garden at the shop on Seventh, from that time until it was sold to Mike Welland in 1990 as Allen Brown mentioned.
The actual 1965 Dean Van Lines Brawner Hawk was offered for sale about the same time (1990) by Steve Forristal in Houston. It had been highly modified and modernized through the years and was almost unrecognizable.
I was told (either by Tom Brawner or Welland) that the 1964 Brabham BT12 would not have been legal for USAC in 1965, even if it had been repaired, due to a rule change on chassis materials. The Brabham used brazed mild-steel construction and the new rules specified welded chrome-moly for tube-frame cars.
The Brabham BT12 chassis sat in the garden at the shop on Seventh, from that time until it was sold to Mike Welland in 1990 as Allen Brown mentioned.
The actual 1965 Dean Van Lines Brawner Hawk was offered for sale about the same time (1990) by Steve Forristal in Houston. It had been highly modified and modernized through the years and was almost unrecognizable.
I was told (either by Tom Brawner or Welland) that the 1964 Brabham BT12 would not have been legal for USAC in 1965, even if it had been repaired, due to a rule change on chassis materials. The Brabham used brazed mild-steel construction and the new rules specified welded chrome-moly for tube-frame cars.
#13
fines
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Posted 04 August 2002 - 09:58
Thanks for all the info, guys! 
Just a few points:
The Zink car in 1965 still raced with an Offy, the Ford-engined car did not appear before 1966. And, of course, Ruby won at Langhorne '67 using his Lotus ;)
For Allen: a rough overview of BT12 copies:
Have I missed out on any?
Interestingly, three of these (the original Hawk and the two Hayhoes) still raced in the 1971 '500', heavily modified and almost unrecognisable...
Just a few points:The Zink car in 1965 still raced with an Offy, the Ford-engined car did not appear before 1966. And, of course, Ruby won at Langhorne '67 using his Lotus ;)
For Allen: a rough overview of BT12 copies:
- two Brawner-Hawks, one in 1965 and one in 1967. The third Hawk was of a different design, although still probably BT12 based, so to speak.
- two Moore/Zink cars, one in 1965 (Offy) and one in 1966 (Ford).
- four Laycock-Mongooses in 1967 initially, plus probably one rebuild of the Yarbrough wreck at Indy, and at least one more car in '68. Later cars of rather different design.
- two Randol/Hayhoe-Brabhams in 1968
Have I missed out on any?
Interestingly, three of these (the original Hawk and the two Hayhoes) still raced in the 1971 '500', heavily modified and almost unrecognisable...
#14
Doug Nye
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Posted 05 August 2002 - 21:30
Blackie - sorry, Sir Jack - says he remembers providing drawings to "a bloke named Hayhoe to help him build a car" and recalls discovering that they were handed on - SO FINES' RECOLLECTION OF DRAWINGS PASSING AROUND THE INDYCAR COMMUNITY IS CORRECT - while Ron Tauranac cooperated with the Brawner-built project. He's got a bee in his bonnet about there having been another car built in 1964 which bothers me - any views????
Incidentally, referring to the BT25s mentioned in the very beginning of this thread - the car which survives today restored at Donington was retrieved by myself from a garage at the foot of the garden of a modest private house somewhere in Chessington, as I recall it, around 1973??? for Tom Wheatcroft. It was simply a monocoque in reasonably good nick with bodypanels, suspension corners, hubs etc, wheels all in boxes. The big 4.2-litre Repco V8 engine came from elsewhere, but at this range I simply cannot recall the details. I know the paintwork etc was all original, and once we had rebuilt the car to running order it was driven by John Noakes for the 'Blue Peter' children's TV programme on the BBC here. They lashed a camera onto the roll-over bar and as Noakesie whistled down into the old Melbourne Hairpin at Donington park - before the main road circuit was reopened we had a short quarter-mile loop there - he gave it bags of throttle in the hairpin and spun like a top off onto the grass verge, and went round and round and round and round about five times before he sorted it all out. Wheatie just about burst his breeches laughing. Not many owners of precious cars would have reacted that way...
DCN
Incidentally, referring to the BT25s mentioned in the very beginning of this thread - the car which survives today restored at Donington was retrieved by myself from a garage at the foot of the garden of a modest private house somewhere in Chessington, as I recall it, around 1973??? for Tom Wheatcroft. It was simply a monocoque in reasonably good nick with bodypanels, suspension corners, hubs etc, wheels all in boxes. The big 4.2-litre Repco V8 engine came from elsewhere, but at this range I simply cannot recall the details. I know the paintwork etc was all original, and once we had rebuilt the car to running order it was driven by John Noakes for the 'Blue Peter' children's TV programme on the BBC here. They lashed a camera onto the roll-over bar and as Noakesie whistled down into the old Melbourne Hairpin at Donington park - before the main road circuit was reopened we had a short quarter-mile loop there - he gave it bags of throttle in the hairpin and spun like a top off onto the grass verge, and went round and round and round and round about five times before he sorted it all out. Wheatie just about burst his breeches laughing. Not many owners of precious cars would have reacted that way...
DCN
#15
David McKinney
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 06:01
Completely and utterly OT, but the Melbourne Hairpin 'circuit' was still in existence after the pukka track was built: the Jim Russell RDS was using it for preliminary training when I did a course there about 1990Originally posted by Doug Nye
whistled down into the old Melbourne Hairpin at Donington park - before the main road circuit was reopened we had a short quarter-mile loop there
#16
aaron
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Posted 13 September 2008 - 10:04
On the subject of the other BT25 which Doug refers to it may have been missing in action but was in fact preserved in excellant condition by Bill Simpson himself and hanging from the roof of Simspon World in Nth Carolina. When John Martin sold it to Bill he first had the chassis restored by John Buttera a friend of Simspon's and famous Hot Rod fabricator.
This was Jack's car #95 which Revson also ran once at I.R.P. and had a win over 2 heats, the only USAC win for the 4.2. Repco quad-cam engine.
Jack was in the process of selling the Revson #92 car to John Martin when the tech inspectors at the speedway managed to blow a hole in the fuel tank trying to measure the engine capacity. Ron taurenac, Don Halpin the car's mechanic and John Martin have all told me this. Jack simply said "well you will have to buy this one instead" and John did, at the urging of his wife who was an admirer of the 3 times world champ.
The car that Doug Nye found (see above) must have been the unrepaired #92 Revson car which as he says was then restored at Donington and I believe Ron Taurenac himself assisted with advice on that job. The car features in the Jack Brabham Story, Doug's excellant book. I would love to see some photos of the car as it was found and see how bad the damage was. Some say the car was blown to smithereens but Don reckons it was just a hole in the side of the fuel tank and outer skin. Makes a great story anyway! My only gripe is that the car is now presented with #95 on it. Regardless, the Martin car is in the later winged Offy Turbo spec and should be here in Oz in time for the Tasman Revival meeting late November (static display only). I have sourced a complete Repco 4.2 Indy engine as well as the original spares for the car so I could restore the car as 1969 at a later date.
A final note (for now) is that the car also ran a Chev engine when Dick Simon and John tried to qualify it and John had it set up to allow for Turbo Ford as well as Turbo Offy. It was about 17 m.p.h. faster with wings and Offy as an indication of how rapidly speeds went up during those years.
It's great to be able to get information from the source and get an important car back to the track so people can see it. Aaron.
This was Jack's car #95 which Revson also ran once at I.R.P. and had a win over 2 heats, the only USAC win for the 4.2. Repco quad-cam engine.
Jack was in the process of selling the Revson #92 car to John Martin when the tech inspectors at the speedway managed to blow a hole in the fuel tank trying to measure the engine capacity. Ron taurenac, Don Halpin the car's mechanic and John Martin have all told me this. Jack simply said "well you will have to buy this one instead" and John did, at the urging of his wife who was an admirer of the 3 times world champ.
The car that Doug Nye found (see above) must have been the unrepaired #92 Revson car which as he says was then restored at Donington and I believe Ron Taurenac himself assisted with advice on that job. The car features in the Jack Brabham Story, Doug's excellant book. I would love to see some photos of the car as it was found and see how bad the damage was. Some say the car was blown to smithereens but Don reckons it was just a hole in the side of the fuel tank and outer skin. Makes a great story anyway! My only gripe is that the car is now presented with #95 on it. Regardless, the Martin car is in the later winged Offy Turbo spec and should be here in Oz in time for the Tasman Revival meeting late November (static display only). I have sourced a complete Repco 4.2 Indy engine as well as the original spares for the car so I could restore the car as 1969 at a later date.
A final note (for now) is that the car also ran a Chev engine when Dick Simon and John tried to qualify it and John had it set up to allow for Turbo Ford as well as Turbo Offy. It was about 17 m.p.h. faster with wings and Offy as an indication of how rapidly speeds went up during those years.
It's great to be able to get information from the source and get an important car back to the track so people can see it. Aaron.
#17
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 September 2008 - 10:37
Interesting. Bill Simpson also had a Gilbert, a 1968 Brabham copy. Martin was also connected to that car. I'm slightly confused now.
When did Martin tell you he sold the BT25 to Simpson?
When did Martin tell you he sold the BT25 to Simpson?
#18
aaron
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Posted 13 September 2008 - 22:09
Martin sold the car way back in the late 70's. It was hanging from Bill's shop for all to see for decades with Apple Annie's Speakeasy sponsorship. Only in America! I bought John's M16B and simply asked whatever happened to the BT25. "Oh Bill's got that. Do you want his number?"
The Gilbert you mention was the george Follmer car which was #28. There were 2 cars but one was written off. Bill ran it a couple of times and it had a small block Chev. That car is now in South Australia.
It was a copy of the BT12 concept as were the Hayhoe's. Sometimes the Bill Vukovich car was referred to as a Brabham BT32 but was a Hayhoe.
My understanding of the BT32 was that it was a new car for 1970 fitted with the Turbo Offy. Lee Roy Yarborough nearly won in it and Kevin Bartlett practiced in it before sponsorship issues arised. He said it was far better than any other Indy car he ever tried. That car had nothing to do with the BT25s as they were a 1968 design.
Aaron.
The Gilbert you mention was the george Follmer car which was #28. There were 2 cars but one was written off. Bill ran it a couple of times and it had a small block Chev. That car is now in South Australia.
It was a copy of the BT12 concept as were the Hayhoe's. Sometimes the Bill Vukovich car was referred to as a Brabham BT32 but was a Hayhoe.
My understanding of the BT32 was that it was a new car for 1970 fitted with the Turbo Offy. Lee Roy Yarborough nearly won in it and Kevin Bartlett practiced in it before sponsorship issues arised. He said it was far better than any other Indy car he ever tried. That car had nothing to do with the BT25s as they were a 1968 design.
Aaron.
#19
aaron
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Posted 09 October 2008 - 06:26
To Allen, a correction on when the Martin BT25 was sold to Bill Simpson. Apparently not until about 1993 John tells me. I am still hoping that Doug Nye can find any photos of the Donington car before it was rebuilt. Aaron
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#20
dilettante
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 16:46
Hi,
Did someone known the serial numbers of the following Brabhams at Indy?
1964
#52 - Jack Brabham - Zink-Urschel Trackburner - Brabham BT12
1968
#35 - Jochen Rindt - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
1969
#92 - Peter Revson - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
#95 - Jack Brabham - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
Did someone known the serial numbers of the following Brabhams at Indy?
1964
#52 - Jack Brabham - Zink-Urschel Trackburner - Brabham BT12
1968
#35 - Jochen Rindt - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
1969
#92 - Peter Revson - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
#95 - Jack Brabham - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
#21
Doug Nye
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 17:34
Since this thread has been bumped back to prominence I have just seen Aaron's post seeking pix of the BT25 unrestored as I found it. I fear in those days I didn't run to a camera. Now I photograph almost everything. I don't have any pix of the BT25 tub as acquired for Donington, but I am almost - repeat almost - certain that its skins and tanks as found were absolutely intact. I am pretty sure I would have remembered if it had been blown apart! In other words it must have been repaired before we retrieved it.
DCN
DCN
#22
brickyard
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 19:21
Originally posted by dilettante
Hi,
Did someone known the serial numbers of the following Brabhams at Indy?
1964
#52 - Jack Brabham - Zink-Urschel Trackburner - Brabham BT12
1968
#35 - Jochen Rindt - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
1969
#92 - Peter Revson - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
#95 - Jack Brabham - Repco-Brabham Motor Racing - Brabham BT25
I think I have them somewhere, but I can't remember where : I'll try to find them this weekend. I also think we have discussed this matter here before but I can't find the thread either.
Regards
Luis
#23
brickyard
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 19:45
Just a quick note: from memory, I think the BT12 was [I-1-64] but I have to confirm.
Regards
Luis
Regards
Luis
#24
dilettante
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 20:46
Thanks Luis. Good start!
Jyl
Jyl
#25
aaron
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 20:56
Thanks for having a look Doug. Ron T only said he helped Donington with the restoration but didn't really remember what that entailed. I cannot find out who fixed the blown fuel tank. Someone at Brabham's factory no doubt. Aaron
#26
Doug Nye
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 20:57
Yes - sorry about any pix Aaron - Ron helped with both the BT3 and BT25 restorations as far as I recall.
DCN
DCN
#27
aaron
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 20:59
The BT25s were chassis BT25-1 for the Rindt 68 Revson 69 cars and BT25-2 for the Gregory 68, Brabham 69, (Revson 69 @IRP) Martin 70-72, Simpson 74 California 500 car. Aaron
#28
dilettante
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 21:09
Great ! Thanks a lot Aaron
Jyl
Jyl
#29
WALDO
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 22:57
There were 2 cars in 1968.........
The late arriving #95...........
The late arriving #95...........
#30
gbl
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 23:19
I still have two unidentified Brabham cars / copies: Norm Ellefson in 1968 and Lloyd Gifford entry from 1974. Any ideas about these two? Also how many Brabham or Mongoose copys did JC Agajanian have? For Indy 1969 I have photos of car 97 and 98.
#31
WALDO
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Posted 27 March 2009 - 23:39
#97 was a 1966 Shrike and #98 was a 1968 Mongoose........
Check out the ex-Hayhoe Brabham that Kenyon (Three K)had for Sonny Ates.......
Will see Don sometime this Spring and ask he about it......
Check out the ex-Hayhoe Brabham that Kenyon (Three K)had for Sonny Ates.......
Will see Don sometime this Spring and ask he about it......
#32
brickyard
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Posted 28 March 2009 - 18:17
Originally posted by gbl
I still have two unidentified Brabham cars / copies: Norm Ellefson in 1968 and Lloyd Gifford entry from 1974. Any ideas about these two? Also how many Brabham or Mongoose copys did JC Agajanian have? For Indy 1969 I have photos of car 97 and 98.
Norm Ellefson, was a canadian driver (you have to change that in your database) and he drove one of the Hayhoe cars at '68 Hanford and Phoenix races, but did not qualify due to lack of rear tyres from Goodyear. He had to use some very used tyres and didn't make the show. Incredible was the fact that he had the same problem at the two races. The team was a joint venture between Norm, Don Wilbur, Dick Flynn and Jim Tipke and they borrowed the car from Jim Hayhoe himself.
Regards
Luis
#33
WALDO
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Posted 29 March 2009 - 04:09
Interesting since that car ended up in the hands of Don Kenyon in the exact same color, number and a Turbo Offy as it ran at Milwaukee in 1968 for the Bettenhausen........
Then in 1970 two of the exact same Brabhams (1965) show up in the posession of Jerry O'Connell and one made the 500........
Hayhoe had the 1965 Vollstedt prior to Zink pulling the plug in 1967........
Zink had a Brabham-Chevy for Dale Beedlove at IRP in 1967.........
One must assume that was the 1964.........
Now the Zink car in 1966 was a "Brabham" and I believe Agajanian picked this car as a Road Racing car........
So one must believe that Zink had a 1964, 2 1965s and a "1966"..........
The two 1965s made there way to Jerry in 1970 and heavily modified in 1971 for Vukovich to finish 4th and Tingelstad to finish 7th..........
I will see Don Kenyon in May at Illiana and get the history of the 1969 #59.........
Then in 1970 two of the exact same Brabhams (1965) show up in the posession of Jerry O'Connell and one made the 500........
Hayhoe had the 1965 Vollstedt prior to Zink pulling the plug in 1967........
Zink had a Brabham-Chevy for Dale Beedlove at IRP in 1967.........
One must assume that was the 1964.........
Now the Zink car in 1966 was a "Brabham" and I believe Agajanian picked this car as a Road Racing car........
So one must believe that Zink had a 1964, 2 1965s and a "1966"..........
The two 1965s made there way to Jerry in 1970 and heavily modified in 1971 for Vukovich to finish 4th and Tingelstad to finish 7th..........
I will see Don Kenyon in May at Illiana and get the history of the 1969 #59.........
#34
fines
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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:48
Interesting! The last time you posted about the Hayhoe cars you wanted to make us believe one was the 1965 Vollstedt redone, now after realising how far-fetched that idea was you come up with another theory... What will be next, I wonder?
#35
Allen Brown
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Posted 29 March 2009 - 14:56
Er, no.Originally posted by WALDO
Interesting since that car ended up in the hands of Don Kenyon in the exact same color, number and a Turbo Offy as it ran at Milwaukee in 1968 for the Bettenhausen........
Then in 1970 two of the exact same Brabhams (1965) show up in the posession of Jerry O'Connell and one made the 500........
Hayhoe had the 1965 Vollstedt prior to Zink pulling the plug in 1967........
Zink had a Brabham-Chevy for Dale Beedlove at IRP in 1967.........
One must assume that was the 1964.........
Now the Zink car in 1966 was a "Brabham" and I believe Agajanian picked this car as a Road Racing car........
So one must believe that Zink had a 1964, 2 1965s and a "1966"..........
The two 1965s made there way to Jerry in 1970 and heavily modified in 1971 for Vukovich to finish 4th and Tingelstad to finish 7th..........
I will see Don Kenyon in May at Illiana and get the history of the 1969 #59.........
The Jerry O'Connell cars in 1970 were the Hayhoe Brabham copies.
The 1964 Brabham did not race again after the end of 1964 - only the copies did.
Zink had two copies. At least one of them was still at his ranch c1990 (Gerr - was it you that told me that?).
The Brawner/Hawk and Zink/Moore copies were taken from the 1964 Indy Brabham. The 1967 Laycock/Mongoose cars were copies of the ex-Siffert F1 Brabham BT11. The 1968 Hayhoe cars were taken from drawings loaned or sold to Hayhoe by Jack Brabham.
Waldo, I don't have a problem that your recall isn't 100% after 40 yrears - nobody's would be. I don't have a problem with you occasionally speculating and getting it wrong. But sometimes you seem to just make it up as you go along.
#36
ReWind
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Posted 29 March 2009 - 15:05
Michael, look at all the dots in WALDO's postings (at the end of nearly each & every sentenceOriginally posted by fines
What will be next, I wonder?
). It seems there is so much more he could tell us but doesn't.;)
#37
fines
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Posted 29 March 2009 - 16:07
I shiver at the thought of it..................
#38
Doug Nye
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Posted 30 March 2009 - 17:17
Perhaps it would be in keeping with TNF's normal style for a little calm to descend on this thread?
Mr Waldo whoever/whatever you are, please be aware that some people here have been around at least as long as you have, and in some cases probably longer. Some people here - other than you - have worked with some of the people you have mentioned, and whom you profess to know. Some people here - other than you - have spent many years, much perspiration and (in some cases) much money in researching this subject, by speaking, meeting and corresponding with many of the principals and subsequent owners mentioned here.
We are told that you have a history of attempting to bully the predominantly youthful, inexperienced or relatively naive audiences on other Fora. To what purpose? There are surely more congenial ways of making yourself feel good, or perhaps to gain some vicarious respect?
In this place if you share believable evidence, and its detailed sources, you might be believed, and indeed come to earn a little respect. Megaphone presentation doesn't impress here on TNF. Don't waste the energy, old chap...and don't waste your time just coming across as an inadequate blow-hard. You plainly have some genuine enthusiasm, and seem eager to share. But share is the word, not lecture - especially when talking what in several instances is plainly total bullshit.
Do you understand?
Now just count to ten, and take deep breaths... There there dear, mere age itself is never a measure of having grown up.
DCN
Mr Waldo whoever/whatever you are, please be aware that some people here have been around at least as long as you have, and in some cases probably longer. Some people here - other than you - have worked with some of the people you have mentioned, and whom you profess to know. Some people here - other than you - have spent many years, much perspiration and (in some cases) much money in researching this subject, by speaking, meeting and corresponding with many of the principals and subsequent owners mentioned here.
We are told that you have a history of attempting to bully the predominantly youthful, inexperienced or relatively naive audiences on other Fora. To what purpose? There are surely more congenial ways of making yourself feel good, or perhaps to gain some vicarious respect?
In this place if you share believable evidence, and its detailed sources, you might be believed, and indeed come to earn a little respect. Megaphone presentation doesn't impress here on TNF. Don't waste the energy, old chap...and don't waste your time just coming across as an inadequate blow-hard. You plainly have some genuine enthusiasm, and seem eager to share. But share is the word, not lecture - especially when talking what in several instances is plainly total bullshit.
Do you understand?
Now just count to ten, and take deep breaths... There there dear, mere age itself is never a measure of having grown up.
DCN
#39
Doug Nye
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Posted 30 March 2009 - 21:02
Originally posted by Buford
I doubt he has any idea who you are Doug.
He's certainly not alone, mate... Half the time I wonder.
Anyway, just in case anybody still cares, here's a taste of what we're meant to be talking about.
Photo Copyright: The GP Library
DCN
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#40
Ray Bell
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 01:10
Originally posted by Ray Bell
And this one is?
It's been lovingly restored over the past three or four years... looked pretty genuine to me, Jack seemed to give it the nod of approval.
Just to put my pics back in place...
#41
Twin Window
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 08:32
Indeed. Thank you, Doug.Originally posted by Doug Nye
Perhaps it would be in keeping with TNF's normal style for a little calm to descend on this thread?
And thanks too to those of you who have complained about a certain poster. Waldo, you are no longer welcome here and will be banned by the time the day is out. Go take your attitude and manners and find another internet community to piss off.
Better still, don't bother and just go boil your head.
#42
Doug Nye
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 08:41
Hallo! That bloke seems to have nicked my luvverly photo!
DCN
DCN
#43
Ray Bell
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 09:00
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Hallo! That bloke seems to have nicked my luvverly photo!
Mine too...
Wonder if Stuart could fix the link in my early post so mine reappear? 'members.iimetro' instead of 'www.austarmetro' will do it for us, Twinny.
#44
Buford
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 09:28
Lol thanks Twinnie. I knew this was gonna happen when he showed up. It went off like clockwork. I knew a forum where people actually know stuff was gonna erupt when they saw his act. And yes I know I helped rile him up. My bad. But those were nice pics of Brabham's cars. Let's see them again.
#45
brickyard
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 09:36
Originally posted by Twin Window
Waldo, you are no longer welcome here and will be banned by the time the day is out.
I love great news by the morning. What a nice way to start the day. Thank you Twinny, now I'm back.
Regards
Luis
#46
Twin Window
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 09:38
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Hallo! That bloke seems to have nicked my luvverly photo!
Sorry chaps; hopefully they're both now reinstated.Originally posted by Ray Bell
Mine too...
It's extremely difficult to split threads accurately as I only get to see minimal info regarding each post when doing so. So, if I've removed other material or pics which need to be put back, please let me know and I'll do my best.
#47
Ray Bell
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 11:06
Well done, mate...
Though it would be interesting to know why the second pic isn't coming up. I'll post it again:
Though it would be interesting to know why the second pic isn't coming up. I'll post it again:
#48
Twin Window
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 11:41
Strange that, as it's nowhere to be seen amongst the removed postsOriginally posted by Ray Bell
Though it would be interesting to know why the second pic isn't coming up.
Meanwhile, back to the subject in hand...
#49
Ray Bell
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 12:00
It's actually supposed to be there in the same posts as the other one, Twinny...
For some reason it's not appearing, though it should still be available. Anyway, it's posted now, hope Jack's smile continues.
For some reason it's not appearing, though it should still be available. Anyway, it's posted now, hope Jack's smile continues.
#50
RA Historian
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Posted 31 March 2009 - 14:48
A big, big thank you Stuart.Originally posted by Twin Window
I believe that it is unanimous that we all appreciate your action in this distasteful matter. I can ease off on the amount of Lipitor now that the know-it-all jerk is gone. Anyway, back to what we do! I copied the two photos above of the BT-32 (I think that is right) simply because I have never really seen any decent photos of this car. It seems that the real Brabhams and all their copies quickly adapted wildly varying body modifications. Hence, it is instructive to me to see this one-off in its original shape. It actually is an attractive car.
Tom
(And it does not seem to be the 1968 Penske Lola either!! Sorry, I shouldn't have done that... )
