46 replies to this topic

[Goofy]

I don't know if someone out there agrees with me or not but Jean Alesi is one of the greatest drivers in F1 history. It's a pity to see such a fierce driver frustrated both at present and for his past. To blame only bad luck would be wrong for Alesi could have gone to Williams when they were WILLIAMS, but one thing you can NEVER blame is his performance. I sure wish to see Alesi run for a good team next year if he still has the desire to do so. He surely deserves it...

[ClashCityRocker]

Originally posted by Goofy:
but one thing you can NEVER blame is his performance.

I can and I will

[Pascal]

Originally posted by ClashCityRocker:
I can and I will

For the sake of the argument, would you care to develop?

[Uncle Dave]

I'm sorry, but no top team will take Alesi, neither next year, nor ever again. He drove for top teams (Ferrari and Benetton, and you could even argue Sauber if you wish) for eight (10) years, and each one he joined went slip-sliding down the grid. He is too unstable to be World Champion, and still spends too much time off the road and/or pointing towards oncoming cars for a driver of his experience. In the name of God, send him packing off to sportscars or Indycars where his sheer pace and exciting driving will be at home in cars which he can still show his vast flair for passionate racing.

[Nathan]

Ill be first in line to defend Alesi. At Benetton in 96 he did a smashing job. He got more podiums that year than all of Ferrari. Just take a look at his top 3s and 4s that year. Now consider he was running against MS and 2 Williams, plus the McLarens were not all bad. That Benetton was ****. Alesi was one of the best that never got to proove himself.

[Linus27]

I bet you a trip to any GP that this thread will either die or will end up being a slagging match between pro and anti Alesi fans with the anti's saying he was useless and brought every team he drove for down and the pro's saying the oppersite. Same old **** again.

[Nathan]

OK, I know this is only 1 year, but I believe it best shows this mans potential.

In 1996 every race Alesi finished was in the points. Of 11 races he finished that year, 9 times he was on the podium. The worst he qualifield that year was 9th in Japan, mainly due to the excessive preasure placed on him by Flav. Other than that race he averaged a grid position of 5th. He was the 3rd most consistant driver behind the Williams drivers completitng 80% off all the laps and ranked 2nd in avg lap time for all the tracks and all the drivcers. 2nd. Ahead of both Hill and Schumacher. He outqualifiled Berger 13 times. Come on here!

Guys this guy is amazing. And considering the 96 Benetton was the same as the 95 in major design details, which was for Schumacher, I say pretty good. Give him a decent car and support, this man is a Mika Hakkinen.

[boru]

This guy is definitely not a Mika Hakkinene, he is too inconsistent and unreliable. He's fast, overtakes a bit and has passion but he is lacking in the brains department when it comes to actual racing. I've mentioned reasons before in other threads, so I am not going over the same stuff again. No doubt he is a good driver, but a little overrated. he should see out his career in CART for the next 2 years and take Johnny Herbert with him. These guys are at the end of their days in F1.

[Nathan]

In consistant? 80% of laps completed is inconsistant? If I may compare him to Berger that year did 74% of the total laps. His only probelm is letting his emotions get ahead of him.

As for Hakkinen. Many have said he has gotten better because of the confidence he has, and now that he sees what he can do. He wasnt this fast before 98. Im sure if Jean got some good wins, he would realize how to control his emotions and how to drive smart and faster. Jean like Mika needs to see results before he can provide more and consistanty.

[Pascal]

Nathan, I pretty much agree with you, but you would like to come back on one of the points you made earlier:

Originally posted by Nathan:
And considering the 96 Benetton was the same as the 95 in major design details...

I think it's a bit too simple to put it that way. No team in Formula 1 can afford to have its cars remain basically the same as the previous year, and of course Benetton didn't in 1996. The car that year introduced many changes compared with its predecessor, and that alone could explain part of the difference in performance.

But I actually have another theory. In 1995, Benetton was in fact Team Schumacher, pretty much the same way Ferrari is nowadays. By that, I mean that the team relied solely on Michael to give the feedback needed to develop the car. Because of the German's talent, and thanks to the great team built around him, the system worked flawlessly. But when Schumacher decided to leave for Ferrari, the whole team lost guidance, and had to adapt to TWO new drivers in order to develop the new car. And it is quite documented that Alesi and Berger do not have exactly the same requirements when it comes to car-handling. I therefore believe that the team got lost in its development work, simply because they were not used anymore to receive two conflicting views on what should be improved. I'm pretty sure that if Ferrari was to lose Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello at the end of the season, and got two new drivers in replacement with equal status, they would encounter the same kind of problem over at least the first half of the following season.

My opinion is that Berger and Alesi did not fit in a system that Benetton was unwilling to change since it had worked so well with Schumi. And that may explain in part the slow degradation of the team's atmosphere in 1996, that led to the departure of many of its best human elements.

[This message has been edited by Pascal (edited 05-26-2000).]

[madmac]

96/97 were in fact a tough couple of years for Bennetton, losing MS, Brawn & Bryne. But in many ways those years were also Berger's & Alesi's finest. In 96 Alesi showed he finally found consistency, as others had said the number of podiums he scored demonstrate this, also lets not forget Berger's win in 97. The most expirienced pairing in F1 at that time IMO helped stop the team sliding to the back of the grid for a couple of years, then in walked Dave Richard's & the rest is history.


Post Bennetton Alesi's career has seemed to slide, a couple of years at Sauber just as they peaked & now at Prost just as everyone realized they are crap.


It seem's unfortunate that a lot of Alesi's best moments came so earley in his career (the classic battle with Senna while driving a TYRELL). To me Alesi has been blighted by managing to join a team in decline, going to Ferrari instead of Williams IMO was his biggest mistake.


P.S. During the European GP coverage Martin Brundle said that he & Alesi once stood toe to toe with Alesi saying "I'm going to kill you" anyone know when & where ?

[Pascal]

madmac, my guess would be Monaco 1995. Alesi was the fastest driver on the track that day, and he was in second position when he crashed into Brundle's car which blocked his way at Bureau de Tabac curve.

[Damop]

This is a Goofy thread

How about Melbourne '97 - that was a brilliant drive, ignoring the screams on his radio and the frantically waved pit boards, only to realize a couple of laps later that an F1 car does indeed need fuel to run properly.

This is a qualitative remark, but it also seems to me that when Alesi blows an engine he is more adept at continuing along the racing line, spreading oil as he goes, than any other current driver.

I think Alesi is a good driver, but certainly no better than someone like Irvine.

[Duane]

Yes, that's right! Monaco 95. I was so pissed at Brundle that day. It looked like Alesi might actually get to the front that day.
He was coming up to lap Brundle, who kept Alesi back for several corners and then spun in front of him going into Tabac - Alesi never had a chance. On that day, Jean looked amazing - especially when you consider that DC trashed both Ferrari's on the first start and the team was forced to the spare and/or hurriedly repaired car(s).

As a Ferrari fan, that day just kept getting worse and worse...


[This message has been edited by Duane (edited 05-26-2000).]

[Peeko]

Madmac, I wouldn't call joining Ferrari in 1990 (for 1991) a team in decline. After all, they had just failed to secure both championships, and Williams wasn't even in the picture in '90. How was he to know?

[Linus27]

Damop

Can you give me some examples of when Alesi's engine has blown he runs for a while spreading oil all over the track. For you to bring this point up must mean it sticks in your mind and that he may have done it on a few occasions so can you enlighten me where and when please.

[Damop]

Sure, I'll get right on that. I'll make copies on the ASAP, double-sided with the cover page, this time the blue one.

[boru]

Linus, it sticks in my mind too. Happened last season. Don't ask me which race yet as I am unsure. I hope Damop comes up with the goods.

[madmac]

Good point Peeko, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing!

[Todd]

In 1996 Benetton had Rory Byrne designing the cars, Ross Brawn calling the races, Renault providing the same spec engines they supplied WCC-winning Williams with, and Jean Alesi signed as #1 driver.

Compare this with:

In 1995 Benetton had Rory Byrne designing the cars, Ross Brawn calling the races, Renault providing the same spec engines they supplied WCC-runner up Williams with, and Michael Schumacher signed as #1 driver.

1996: 68 points, 3rd in WCC, 0 wins, 0 poles
1995: 137 points, 1st in WCC, 11 wins, 4 poles

What was different?

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Pascal]

Todd, have you actually bothered to read my earlier post?

[Todd]

Pascal,

I've also bothered to read everything I can find about Schumacher and his teams. The B195 wasn't built around Schumacher's style. It was a difficult to drive car because it was a difficult to drive car. Did you read the interview where Damon asked Michael about the in-car shots of him feverishly working the wheel to keep the B195 pointed forward? Michael said he didn't do it because of preference, that is just the way the car handled. Michael constantly adapts to whatever style suits the car or the rules. If Schumacher had really wanted the hyper twitchy B195 to suit his own style, he would have been SOL when 4 groove front tires came out. Somehow, he is still a very competitive driver. If Alesi were as good as Michael, he would have made his cars work for him and been just as adaptive as Michael's teams know him to be. Speaking of the B195, I thought Alesi rather liked it. Wasn't it Berger that crashed them all?

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[mtl'78]

I don't care what any of you say, if F1 was populated by 21 othe Alesi's F1 would be a lot more fun.

Jean is the only one who is a match for MS in the wet.

His car control is the best of ANYONE. I saw him last season, in Montreal friday practice lock up all 4 tyres for over 100 meters and still make the corner.

His weakness is all off-track. He should sue his manager for incompetence. Alesi could have been a world champ no problem. He NEVER drove a WDC-level car. NEVER.

What he's doing in the worst car onthe grid this season is unbelievable. Go to Forix and pull up the lap charts. Here they are:
http://www.forix.com...l=0&r=10001&c=6 http://www.forix.com...l=0&r=10002&c=6 http://www.forix.com...l=0&r=10003&c=6 http://www.forix.com...l=0&r=10004&c=6 http://www.forix.com...l=0&r=10005&c=6

he easily has the most overtakings this year in the worst car with regulations that make it impossible for MS to pass Villeneuve, RB to pass Trulli, etc. Can't passs in these cars unless you're Alesi it seems...

[Pascal]

Todd, you are correct about the B195 being twitchy, and indeed Alesi liked it that way when he drove it during pre-season testing. But the Benetton team faced a dilemma since Berger seemed unable to adapt to the car, and therefore had to make some compromises when the 1996 season started. And in that, Benetton lost its way, trying to reconcile the conflicting views of their drivers regarding where development should be headed.

And for the record, I have never stated that Alesi was a superior driver than Schumacher, but I still believe that the gap between them is less than what raw figures would lead us to believe. I just believe that comparing team situation from one year to another is not really relevant. On the other hand, putting both drivers in exactly the same car would.

[Goofy]

I go with mtl'78 all the way... Go back to last year and guess who has the most overtakes of the season??? That's right friends Jean "Overtaker" Alesi....

He may not be as good as Gilles, Prost, Senna, Shumacher (he's there no doubt) but he surely deserves a championship much more than Mika deserved being a repeating champion... Mika barely deserved being champion at all....

------------------
"When everything is under control, you're not going fast enough."
Mario Andretti

Goof

[Damop]

It's easier to overtake when you are starting at the back of the grid....

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Damop:
It's easier to overtake when you are starting at the back of the grid....

That statement would be true if Jean was driving a superior car, which is clearly not the case this year...

[selena]

I am not an Alesi fan but I will say that he has the talent. Perhaps his career moves have not been lucky! He certainly deserves to win more GPs than records show.

[Linus27]

Well I am still waiting for these reports of Alesi driving around the track dumping oil everywhere. Still waiting chaps.

[404KF2]

I don't know about him dumping oil, but he admitted to dumping tears for the last couple of laps at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve at the time of his only F1 victory. He has said that he couldn't see at all at times and nearly went off course because of this. Although his sentimental nature is charming, the waterworks should have been held until after he crossed the "Salut Gilles" marker for the last time.

He was and is too emotional to be a top driver. He's sort of like a slower Gilles Villeneuve with a bit too much emotion. Fun to watch, though!

[mono-posto]

Alesi = RACER
Hakkinen = FAST DRIVER

I'll take the Alesi's of the World over the Hakkinen's, even if they don't win races or championships.

[404KF2]

mono-posto,

Agreed!

P.S. with a handle like that, shouldn't you only post once?

[vroom-vroom]

The greatest injustice is NOT Alesi who had many, many races in very good cars to prove his worth. The greatest injustice is for drivers like Jordi Gené, Alex Ribeiro, Luca Badoer, Emmanuel Collard, Jorg Muller, Kenny Brack, Vincenzo Sospiri, and many others who were all very talented, yet were denied the opportunity to shine for either commercial reasons or because the seats were literally stolen by talentless pay drivers like Diniz, Rosset, Inoue, Deletraz, Lavaggi, or Mazzacane.

[This message has been edited by vroom-vroom (edited 05-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by vroom-vroom (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Linus27]

Mono Posto

I second that.

I am still waiting for these Alesi dumping oil antics from you guys. Do I detect you were making it up.

[Em Gee]

I wouldn't say I'm a fanatic about the man, but I'm an Alesi fan and have always admired his passion and amazing car control, but you have to admit he's made some bad decisions, both on and off the track. Having said that, I also admire M. Schumacher, who has a decidedly different approach (but I wouldn't call myself a Schumacher fan per se).

BTW, where's AlesiFan? I figured he'd be in the think of this post...

These kinds of posts always end up with the old 'who's better' or 'let see them in equal cars' discussions, so here's my fantasy match race:

Schumacher and Alesi, one on one, in identical 1961/2 Ferrari Tipo 156s. Skinny tires, wire wheels, no aerodynamic aids, 1.5 liter V-6s. A two-race series - one at Spa and one at the old 'Ring.

Any thoughts on who would clean up?

[JJP]

Hate to brake you the news but most people think that being a "racer" demands some activity in the brain department too.

Seems to me that Alesi rather "races" (if you will) and loses than thinks and wins.

No matter how much you "race" if you lose, you're still a loser.

Oh, and please don't pull GV into this Jean ain't no Gilles.

[andretti]

The great injustice isthat alesi is stil stealing money from a f1 team.

He is still living off his phoenix race.

Done nothing since.

[Franco]

I think Alesi was/is a very naturally talented driver. Much more talented than some of the current drivers. A combination of bad luck, mental-weakness, and unstable character ruined what could have been a fabulous career IMO.

PS Alesi is renowned for being a RainMaster, ala Schummy, but since I started watching in '97 I havent seen him display superior driving in the wet at all, on the contrary I remember him spinning out in the rain in some races. Where did this legend come from?

[Pascal]

andretti, it would be nice if you could for once back your peremptory remarks with examples and facts...
Thanks for your enlightening contribution anyway.

Franco, Alesi's reputation in the wet comes from several occasions when, while driving his Ferrari, he managed to stay on track with slicks while all other competitors had chosen rain tyres (I remember one time in Spa, but the year escapes me right now). I actually believe that he is actually better on a drying track than on a really wet one, where several other drivers are at least as good as he is.

[This message has been edited by Pascal (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Linus27]

Pascal

I think you are spot on about Alesi being better on a drying track than a full wet track.

Andretti

I would also say Schumacher is stealing money from Ferrari also. How many years has it taken him to try and win the driver and constructor title for them and failed? They had to rely on there no.2 to do the job for them last year. At least Alesi is not ripping off so much money out of his team.

I am still waiting for these reports of Alesi dumping oil all over the track guys. If you can't back up your comments with proof then don't bother posting. It seems like a lot of posters here are doing that in this thread.

[Red27]

JJP - You say don't bring Gilles into this. I wasn't around in Gilles' time. Of course it's true that Jean has only won one race and of course Gilles has a legendary status increased by his early and tragic death. BUT what I do know is that many tifosi who revered the memory of Gilles felt that Jean had the same spirit and passion as his illustrious predecessor and believed him worthy to drive the Red 27. This is an opinion not based on facts or statistics but on style, spirit and passion. Typical Latin approach as opposed to Anglosaxon or Germanic

[This message has been edited by Red27 (edited 05-28-2000).]

[JJP]

Right... but I think that our latin friends have become very fond of germanic approach lately. (Schumi is a winner no matter what else is said about him.)

[Pascal]

Anybody's free to worship winners, but thank God, that's not the only joy Formula 1 has to offer!

[Jonathan]

Does anyone here recall Alesi racing Hakkenin in the 1991 French Grand Prix ?

I beleive they were contesting 9th place. In the rain. I can't seem to recall who won.

(Doesnt matter, much. Both showed their skills that day).

[JJP]

Hey you got me wrong! I dig Alesi! I'm always up for a good laugh! (just kidding)

I have no doubt that Alesi's passion (admirable thing in modern F1 I must admit) would be better off in some series with less cutthroat atmosphere. Like in CART or American Le Mans.

I'm just attempting to analyce F1 from the commonmans viewpoint and for your average BernieCam watcher F1 just seems to be all about winning.

"The second is first of the losers." -Keke Rosberg

[Spinoza]

Alesi is a real enigma. He reminds me of a Ferrari road car. Great cars but crap cars - difficult to tune, expensive parts, unreliable but beautiful. They go well when they go - and often they decide not to. As I said, a real engima. A talent - but flawed.

[jalfarm]

Mono-posto hit the nail correctly. To bad ja isn't racing at a time when overtaking was the method to finish ahead. I would have to say that Surtees, for example, was a very hot latin temperment. I don't recall any tears from him, however there seems to be a great deal of mist in the air between the finish and the podium.