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A real Schumacher-affair or just another lame conspiracy theory?


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#1 holiday

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Posted 06 August 2002 - 18:44

There was a little episode at the beginning of the 1995 season. This is the only piece of information I have found about it; Source is www.f1rogues.com so it might very well may not be too accurate.

For 1995 the cars had to conform to the new minimum weight with the driver in situ. Michael Schumacher had mysteriously gained 8 kilograms in weight from the previous year, only to have lost 6.5KG when he was weighed at the end of the race. Given that there was not a spare ounce of fat on Schumacher it is unlikely that this drop in weight could be attributed to his new training program as he claimed. At the end of the race the car with driver were of legal weight but the whole episode was mighty suspicious.


Honestly, I can't make any sense of this. :confused:
Why should have Schumacher firstly gathered so much weight, only to lose it later? What kind of advantage could he have got by doing this? It does not make sense neither in terms of his fitness regime nor in regard of the official FIA-minimum weight.

The only thing which is clear that he like everybody else had an interest to exceed the 600 kilogramm minimum weight (car+driver) only by the slightest of margin because of the rising fuel consumption.

Could anybody help out?



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#2 wawawa

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Posted 06 August 2002 - 19:01

Well, drivers can lose 3-4 litres of water in a hot race - that would account for 3-4 kg. Losing 6.5 litres would probably kill you, so perhaps the extra 2.5 kg is just exaggeration :smoking:

#3 bira

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Posted 06 August 2002 - 19:38

Schumacher's lead helmet - it's one of the paddock's favourite legends :lol:

#4 eoin

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Posted 06 August 2002 - 22:07

Schumacher's lead helmet - it's one of the paddock's favourite legends



Maybe he was afraid of a nuclear explosion! :rolleyes:

#5 HP

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 02:23

Originally posted by eoin


Maybe he was afraid of a nuclear explosion! :rolleyes:

At most it was to train his neck muscles through added weigth :rotfl:

#6 Dunder

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 02:59

Like yourself, I don't know what to make of that. Given the sourse I suspect it is at least embellished.

It is not surprising, however that there is suspicion - considering what that team did and, ultimately, got away with during the previous season.

#7 berge

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 03:56

I remember this.

Head was FURIOUS.

I think the weighing procedure was changed the next race.

#8 rmhorton

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 05:21

Holiday,

Your're figures are almost correct. Schumacher did gain 8 KG from his last year's 'official' weight at the first weight check of the new season, but he only lost 5.5 KG when he was weighed after the race.

Make of it what you will. He either tried to cheat, by carrying an extra heavy helmut at the first weigh-in, with the intention of racing an under weight car, or, as he claimed, he gained all that extra 8 KG by turning much of his 1994 fat into muscle, and lost 5.5 KG essentially during the race.

Sources: 1995 Autocourse.

Whatever will we talk about when he retires....

Roger

#9 Viktor

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 08:27

If Schumacher now used a lead helmet, what was the use of it?? How did he gain a advantige from it?

/Viktor

#10 bira

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Posted 07 August 2002 - 09:06

Originally posted by Viktor
If Schumacher now used a lead helmet, what was the use of it?? How did he gain a advantige from it?

/Viktor


Well the story went that he'd get a different helmet after the race, made of lead, with which he'd take the weight. What's the advantage? A huge one, if you're racing under weight and then you have something to give you the weight needed to pass scrutiny :)

#11 The RedBaron

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 19:12

Originally posted by bira


Well the story went that he'd get a different helmet after the race, made of lead, with which he'd take the weight. What's the advantage? A huge one, if you're racing under weight and then you have something to give you the weight needed to pass scrutiny :)


I see your point, do you believe this to be the case or just more rumours?

Surely someone would have seen the switch from coming out of the car in parc femme and walking
a few yards to the weighing centre?

#12 Todd

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 19:21

Originally posted by bira


Well the story went that he'd get a different helmet after the race, made of lead, with which he'd take the weight. What's the advantage? A huge one, if you're racing under weight and then you have something to give you the weight needed to pass scrutiny :)


Considering that it was at the post race weigh in that he was at his lightlest, there is no evidence to support this theory. If he was light because the lead helmet was misplaced, then the fact that he and his car still combined to exceed the minimum weight would show Benetton to be a bunch of idiots that don't understand arithmetic. Somehow, I doubt that Ross and Michael were the idiots in this anecdote. There is no evidence of cheating by Benetton. There is plenty of evidence of intellectual dishonesty from their accusers, and idiocy from the people that agree with the accusers.

#13 holiday

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Posted 08 August 2002 - 23:26

I still don’t get it fully:

rmhorton
Your're figures are almost correct. Schumacher did gain 8 KG from his last year's 'official' weight at the first weight check of the new season, but he lost 5.5 KG when he was weighed after the race. Make of it what you will:



A. He either tried to cheat, by carrying an extra heavy helmut at the first weigh-in, with the intention of racing an under weight car,


If this was the case, the weighing rules in 1995 must have been different from the ones nowadays, as today -as far as I know- the weight of the driver plus the car have to comply the minimum weight of 600 kg. That means every extra-weight would have gone to the expense of the car. If Schumacher’s weight now complied with the rules before the race, he logically would have weighted only by the slightest possible margin above the 600 kg limit, by this capitalizing maximaly when changing his ‘lead helmet’ for a lighter one during the race. But he wouldn’t have got through controls after the race! …Some piece of information is missing. :



B. or, as he claimed, he gained all that extra 8 KG by turning much of his 1994 fat into muscle, and lost 5.5 KG essentially during the race.


That would have been roughly one kilogramm in 15 minutes. He must have been dying out there.;) I am not familiar with the figures, but my guess is that a pilot doesn’t lose more than 2-3 kilos at most in a race, the bulk of it being water, not fat which is substituted to a large extent by the pilots drinking through the race anyway.



Holiday

PS: If the story is true, wonder how Schumacher must have looked like on the weight with that lead helmet – like Darth Vader or something?! :lol:;)

#14 Schummy

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 08:06

The way I heard it from a journalist in Spain (journalist's accuracy unknown in this case) is MS gained weight drinking A LOT of water before the weighting, thus his official weight was well above his real weight, and therefore his could be lighter. Subsequently, every time his car was weighted WITHOUT driver, stewards would add the "official weight" of the driver in order to check the required minimum. This way the journalist thought MS could race with real weight below the limit (becuase his false weight would be "easily" lost, being just water).

Again, I'm just repeating here what I heard...

#15 rmhorton

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 08:54

Originally posted by Todd


Considering that it was at the post race weigh in that he was at his lightlest, there is no evidence to support this theory. If he was light because the lead helmet was misplaced, then the fact that he and his car still combined to exceed the minimum weight would show Benetton to be a bunch of idiots that don't understand arithmetic. Somehow, I doubt that Ross and Michael were the idiots in this anecdote. There is no evidence of cheating by Benetton. There is plenty of evidence of intellectual dishonesty from their accusers, and idiocy from the people that agree with the accusers.



Holiday:


Ok, lets put the record straight, and explain this properly.

The rules in 1995 were different from today.

Then it was not planned that all drivers were to be weighed after every race, but (I think) it was twice a year to establish an ‘official’ weight. For obvious reason this changed after Brazil 1995.


1.“Weight: Any time during Qualifying and immediately after the race cars can be weighed and must not be less than 595 kg including the driver. All the drivers are weighed at the start of the season and their weight is entered into a computer to allow the total to be calculated when the cars are checked without them at the end of the race. Until this year, when the minimum weight did not include the driver, their recorded weight was used to calculate the car's total when the driver was aboard, as in Qualifying. It was desirable to tip the scales as low as possible, and there was no real way to cheat this. This year the reverse is true and so a high official weight for the driver would allow him to race under weight by the amount equal to the difference between his actual weight and his official weight. If the temptation proves to be too great to resist, drivers need to remember that Charlie gets up early - in Brazil he weighed all the drivers who finished........It is now standard practice to weigh them after every race.”

http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00190.html


2. So at the first weight check MS was weighed and was 77 KG, an increase of 8 KG from the last race in mid November 1994. This raised question marks from the FIA. It was, he claimed, due to a new fitness regime that had turned his entire surplus fat into hard muscle. There were those, who, given his superb fitness levels of the previous year, found this hard to believe.

3. The advantage of being heavier (officially) meant that his car could be run lighter, that was the motivation.

4. With suspicions aroused, it was decided to weigh all drivers after the race, and, according to Autocourse Schumacher’s weight was now 71.5 KG, some 5.5 KG less than before the race.

5. The allegation, never proven, was that Schumacher had taken an extra heavy helmet to the original weigh-in. He would of course have raced with his normal one.

This was widely reported at the time, and like many controversies was quickly forgotten. But please guys don’t suggest that this is all smoke and mirrors. In the old currency 5.5 KG is more than 12 LBS. Try drinking that before a race and then sweating it off during it.

Roger

#16 mikedeering

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 09:30

I recall reading a Roebuck comment on this episode . I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something like:

"...no questions were ever raised about Clark or Fangio's weight. For that reason alone, I can never rank Schumacher in the same league as those true driving legends..."


:p

#17 Nikolas Garth

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 09:37

Originally posted by mikedeering
I recall reading a Roebuck comment on this episode . I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something like:

"...no questions were ever raised about Clark or Fangio's weight. For that reason alone, I can never rank Schumacher in the same league as those true driving legends..."


:p

Wasn't that in the same column where Roebuck also said:

...no commercials were ever filmed about Clark or Fangio's using Loreal. For that reason alone, I can never rank Schumacher in the same league as those true driving legends..."

#18 Schummy

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 09:51

"...no questions were ever raised about Clark or Fangio's weight. For that reason alone, I can never rank Schumacher in the same league as those true driving legends..."



I always thought that Roebuck had/has difficulties separating driving skill with personal "niceness", although I think he knows a lot about F1 and is an entertaining professional journalist.

#19 holiday

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 10:19

rmhorton,

thx a lot - very well researched :up:

I think we can put down this episode as a cheating attempt by Schumacher as much as I myself am sorry to say this. The only question remains when Schumacher was weighed the first time. If there was a certain span of time between that first time and the weighing after the race in Brazil, then he may claim more credibility to his claim of losing so much weight, but actually he didn't as he said he lost that weight DURING the race.


2. So at the first weight check MS was weighed and was 77 KG, an increase of 8 KG from the last race in mid November 1994. This raised question marks from the FIA. It was, he claimed, due to a new fitness regime that had turned his entire surplus fat into hard muscle. There were those, who, given his superb fitness levels of the previous year, found this hard to believe.



For a trained person like him losing 5.5 kg in 90 minutes is virtually impossible. He may have tricked a little bit at the official weighting with a stomach full of pasta or something (hard to believe that the drivers are standing on the weight with empty stomachs when the speed equivalent of half a kilogramm less weight on the car translates into dozens of working hours of the engineers), but science says the volume of the human stomach is 2-3 kilogramms and you cant take more food in as I had to find out practically during a bet with friends under the Paris Eiffel tower a long time ago ( rolleyes:;) ) and I am practically of the same ectomorphic-slighty endomorphic body type as Schumacher. Liquids are included as well.

And the loss of water during the race IMO maximaly attributes to 1 to 2 litres (=kilogramms) otherwise the pilots would get dehydrated and reflexes, concentration and coordination would suffer dangerously. And lets dont forget the pilots are drinking during the race liquids with a high amount of carbonhydrates which the body burns preferentially before attacking any fat reserves, so there is something like a running consumption.

So:
- 5.5
+ 2 kilogramm at the first weighting (full stomach)
+ 2 kilogramms loss of water during race
= margin of 1.5 kg

And those number above are really at the upper limit. It is very hard to believe that a racer with such a constitution loses such an amount of weight in such a short span ot time. Practically impossible especially when you are named Michael Schumacher and have set new fitness standards in your sport. And it's also noteworthy that f1 is a sport which until 15 years ago saw very little physical training among even its best competitors - there are really more demanding sports likefor instance triathlon, but even there no athlete would lose such a high amount of weight in 90 minutes.

My five cents.



Holiday

PS: The increase of 8 kilogramms over the course of the off-season however is absolutely possible. The quotes are only insofar misleading as MS most certainly wouldnt have turned fat into muscles like water into wine (where to get the water in this case from anyway ;)), but built up muscle mass with an according containing mainly carbonhydrates and proteines.

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#20 mikedeering

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 10:35

Considering the tribulations of 1994, its hardly surprising Michael let himself go a bit in the off season... :)

#21 holiday

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 10:42

Originally posted by mikedeering
Considering the tribulations of 1994, its hardly surprising Michael let himself go a bit in the off season... :)


hey mike, arent you a supporter of Nige, are you? :lol: ;)

#22 mikedeering

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 12:34

Originally posted by holiday


hey mike, arent you a supporter of Nige, are you? :lol: ;)


Roebuck? I'm not really sure whether journalists have "fans"! I read his column though and enjoy it. I think he gets alot of abuse on the BB because he apparently doesn't worship MS (see my jest post above) - but he does back up this with reasons why - its not like he says "I don't like Michael because he's German and as an English journalist I have to abuse him at every opportunity." - which seems to be the view held by a lot of people.

Sports journalists are basically diehard fans that are fortunate enough to be able to write about their obsession. They care about their sport and its traditions - so when MS makes comments like "I don't believe Ferrari have finished 1-2 before" in the aftermath of the French GP in 1998 it really irks these diehard fans who know fully well that Ferrari's have finished 1-2 before on numerous occasions without the assistance of Michael. I can see why MS is not particularly liked as a result.

#23 bira

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 12:42

Originally posted by mikedeering
Roebuck?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Considering the issue was weight, I do believe he meant Mansell ;)

#24 Foxbat

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 12:56

Originally posted by holiday

I think we can put down this episode as a cheating attempt by Schumacher as much as I myself am sorry to say this.


Does that mean he has no soul? :p

#25 mikedeering

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 13:12

Originally posted by bira


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Considering the issue was weight, I do believe he meant Mansell ;)


Yeah I initially thought that - but then I recalled a recent thread where I ended up defending Roebuck for his criticism of Schumacher. Then in this thread I poked fun at Nigel for his Schumacher criticism - and so concluded from Holiday's comment that he was gently reminding me of my apparent change of opinion!

However, as you state - with the topic being weight then Mansell is bound to be mentioned - I just couldn't see how this really fitted (no pun intended on Mansell's attempts to get in a 95 McLaren) :confused:

Holiday - please enlighten me!

#26 holiday

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 13:34

Originally posted by mikedeering
Yeah I initially thought that - but then I recalled a recent thread where I ended up defending Roebuck for his criticism of Schumacher.



Hey, and I was wondering how you could 'misunderstand' me with such a straight face. :lol: I didnt read that thread you mentioned. Si tacuisses... :cat: PS: I meant the weight of course.


Originally posted by foxbat:
Does that mean he has no soul? :p


Not necessarily so, he just may have already sold it to the emperor, sorry ferrari. would have been another explanation at least why he was wearing that BIG DARK helmet that day. :p

#27 Zmeej

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 13:37

Does that mean he has no soul?

Nope, but it means that Schumi's is removeable,
and we know how much it weighs! :p

Great posts Mr. Horton, thank you! :wave:


#28 mikedeering

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Posted 09 August 2002 - 13:55

Originally posted by holiday



Hey, and I was wondering how you could 'misunderstand' me with such a straight face. :lol: I didnt read that thread you mentioned. Si tacuisses... :cat: PS: I meant the weight of course.


Oops! :blush:

I would go back and delete my post - but I am closing in on 1,000 and really can't afford to! Actually, knowing my luck Atlas will change it so gold members need 2,000 posts by the time I hit 1,000!

#29 rmhorton

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Posted 10 August 2002 - 04:25

Originally posted by bira


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Considering the issue was weight, I do believe he meant Mansell ;)


Yea, that had me confused for a while too.

Overall this little saga only rated a 1 on the open ended Richter scale of alleged attempted cheating stories, and it was in this race, of course, that Michael was a totally innocent party in the Elf fuel row. So what with a major crash on the Friday due to his Benettons steering failure it was one hell of a weekend.

But over at TNF there they are running a great thread all time best ones.

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=46058


Motor racing is one hell of a complicated business isn’t it?


Roger

#30 glorius&victorius

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Posted 10 August 2002 - 07:30

schu took a lot of water right before the race and peed the extra 5.5 kg away in his car.... :rotfl:

btw if the lead helmet was indeed used, how did they switch the helmets from the point the cars roll in the parc ferme till the weigh-in point? Maybe David Copperfield was present at every race? If he can make planes and buildings dissapear, Flavio definitely thought of him....yunno..small world...Flavio knows Naomi, Naomi knows Claudia, Claudia's bf at the time was David! :rotfl:
Or...I know, maybe Michael is into Black Magic himself....look at the number of times he's lucky.... :rotfl: