68 replies to this topic

[confucius]

The following is a pretty good article on Alex I think (F1-live). Its probably as fair as an article on him can be. He ain't great....but he's probably not THAT bad either! And just cos I'm a countryman doesn't mean I'm blindly biased...I've given him my share of flak.


Is Alex Yoong really that bad?
Statistics don't show it..... [12/08/02 - 07:30]


Alex Yoong has received a lot of negative press in recent months with critics busy comparing his performances to that of teammate Mark Webber. However what they opt to omit from their reports is the fact that due to Minardi's meagre budget and the contract Webber has with Flavio Briatore, any new parts for the PS02 go directly to the Australian's car, leaving Alex to struggle with second best.

If the Malaysian driver has to be compared to anyone, it should be the team's 2001 driver, whom he replaced at Monza last year, Tarso Marques while Mark's benchmark should be the one set by yet another driver contracted to Briatore, Spanish driver Fernando Alonso. However even that isn't a fair assessment as Webber has a lot more experience behind the wheel of an F1 car as well as experience on most of the tracks competed on this season due to his participation in the F3000 series.

So lets take a look. In 2001 Tarso Marques failed to qualify three times, Australia, Silverstone and Belgium. As the Belgian Grand Prix has not yet been run, we will start by comparing the two Marques failed to qualify in to Alex in the same event, remembering that Tarso had more experience and both tracks were new to Alex and allowing for the fact that the car has improved slightly in the 12 month period. However, Ferrari's blistering pace this season must also be taken into consideration, a very significant factor when comparing the 107% cut off time.

Australia:
2002: Alex set a best time of 1:31.504, 5.661 off the pole time set by Rubens Barrichello. (1:25.843)
2001: Tarso set a best time of 1:33.228, 6.336 seconds off the pole time set by Michael Schumacher.(1:26.892)
One second was the difference between pole times, yet 1.7 seconds difference in Alex's favour, between his and Marques' times.

Silverstone:
2002: Alex's best of 1:24.785 was 5.787 off Montoya's blistering pace of 1:18.998
2001: Tarso's best was a 1:26.506, 6.059 behind Michael Schumacher's pole time of 1:20.447 One and a half seconds between pole times and 1.8 seconds between Tarso's and Alex's times, once again in Alex's favour. In both instances, Alex has put in a quicker lap time with a shorter gap to the pole sitter than Marques. So what about Imola? Alex failed to qualify there while Tarso did…let's have a look shall we?

A 1:28.281 for Marques, 5.227 off David Coulthard's pole of 1'23"054 and a 1:27.241 for Alex, 6.150 off Schumacher's pole of 1:21.091. Marques was closer in 2001, however Michael brought the benchmark down by a massive two full seconds in 2002 so Alex's best time, that was one second faster than Marques', saw the qualifying gap increase to 9 tenths. Allowing for the fact that most cars are a second quicker this year, with some even slower, (Ferrari being the exception) the fact that Alex has consistently beaten Marques times by more than a second in each of these three scenarios tells the story.

Now, lets compare Mark Webber and Fernando Alonso so that we can get a general feel of that situation.

Australia:
2002: Mark recorded a 1:30.086, 4.243 off the pole time set by Rubens Barrichello. (1:25.843)
2001: Fernando recorded a 1:30.657, 3.765 off the pole time set by Michael Schumacher.(1:26.892). One second was the difference between pole times, yet Mark was just under six tenths of a second faster than Alonso.

Silverstone:
2002: Mark set a 1:22.281, 3.283 off Montoya's blistering pace of 1:18.998
2001: Fernando set a 1:24.792, 4.345 off Schumacher's pole of 1:20.447.

Mark was closer to pole time than Alonso, by 9 tenths of a second and was two and a half seconds faster than Alonso. However, in all fairness, it must be noted that Mark has a lot of experience on the British track. Unfortunately, there isn't a track on the calendar that Alex knows well that Mark doesn't to compare the same situation in reverse.

Now after failing to qualify in the German Grand Prix, it looks as if Alex will be forced to sit out the upcoming Hungarian Grand Prix in favour of another driver that will hopefully ensure the team have two cars on the grid. Is this the end of the Malaysian's time in Formula One? Maybe, maybe not as team boss Paul Stoddart admitted that the main concerns are for the next two events and he plans to give Alex as much support as possible to help return his confidence.

No one is doubting that Webber and Alonso are a lot better behind the wheel in comparison to their teammates, however while critics say Yoong has no place in the pinnacle of Motorsports, it must be recognized that he has delivered better performances than most Asian drivers that have gone before him, even fellow 2002 rookie, Jordan driver Takuma Sato. Alex has kept the PS02 on track for the races he has competed in while others have definitely written off complete chassis' costing respective teams more money in terms of repairing the damage, something Alex is all too aware Minardi don't have to spare.

The following is a list of several other Formula One drivers who didn't last in the series as well as another 2002 rookie, Takuma Sato, complete with points total, career starts and retirement percentages.

Ukyo Katayama: Tyrrell – Japanese with Mild Seven sponsorship - 6 seasons (92-97) - 5 career points - 62% retirement rate.
Taki Innoue: Arrows – Japanese – Japan 94 – Adelaide 95 - 72% retirement rate.
Tora Takagi: Tyrrell – Japanese - Korean Air and PIAA sponsorship - 1998, 1999 finished 12 races - 59 % retirement rate.
Giovanni Lavaggi: Minardi 1995, 1996 – Hugo Boss sponsorship - 10 starts, 2 finishes, 80% retirement rate.
Pedro Lamy: Minardi 1993, Lotus 1994, Minardi 1995 - 1996, 32 starts - 19 finishes – 1 point - 40.5% retirement rate.
Riccardo Rosset: Arrows 1996, MasterCard Lola 97, Tyrrell 98 - 33 starts - 12 finishes, 45% retirement rate.
Takuma Sato: Jordan 2002, 12 starts – 5 finishes – 58% retirement rate.
Alex Yoong: Minardi Monza '01 – present – 11 starts – 6 finishes, 45.4% retirement rate.

Realistically, Sato and Lavaggi are the only other drivers in our comparison that have similar history in regards to their starts in the sport, making it early days to think Yoong has no place in F1. In fact, he has been the most cost effective rookie who has entered Formula One in 8 years, with every other driver on the list damaging at least one chassis during their time, if not more in some instances where Alex's retirements have been down to car failure, not driver error.

Maybe that is his only mistake, not wanting to rack up huge repair bills therefore not pushing the issue as much as he should. Instead he has kept the car on track, despite the odd spin here and there, and given sponsors good value for money. Maybe if his countrymen were as much behind this young drivers attempts as Mark Webber's fellow Australians backed him, the confidence factor Paul Stoddart speaks of wouldn't be an issue.

"I do want to give people a chance and I'm proud of the fact that we brought in the first Malaysian driver,” Stoddart said recently. “He might not be Michael Schumacher but there's a lot of countries that have never had a Formula One driver and never will. Malaysia should be proud of Alex's effort, I'm proud of it. He's done a lot to be in Formula One but something's clearly gone wrong."

[Tommy]

fair article
Although Alex Yoong is bad
he is certainly not as bad as some make him out to be
hes still an excellent driver as he showed in that historic race at Monaco

[Ross Stonefeld]

He is bad. He was not a front runner in any series he contested, and is not qualified or deserving to be in F1.

[tifosi]

YES

He is that bad. I liked F1 racing's interview with Mark Weber when asked about Alex Young. His response basically was that Alex was not a good benchmark, he is really out of his league.

Not often you hear a driver flat out state his teammamte is not very good.

[FredrikB]

Honestly, (yeez, i sound like MS in a press-conference) Ross, would you beat him?
I dont think anyone driving and qualifying (he has, i think...) in an F1 car is "bad".

I don't hink he deserves a seat in F1 either. But bad, no. Just not good enough.

How is your own career going, Ross?
Read about your races in Formula Audi(?).


Fredrik

[Daemon]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
He is bad. He was not a front runner in any series he contested, and is not qualified or deserving to be in F1.

2nd What Ross said. He is that bad and should not be in F1. There are guys like Justin Wilson who could do a far better job, perhaps as good as Webber or better, yet they are not the right nationality, nor do they have the kind of sponsorship that Yoong has.

Granted, he has kept Minardi in F1 for another year, and it's better to have a mobile chicane taking up 1 seat instead of F1 losing 2. It's well and truly time his seat is vacated for someone who has some credibility. There are plenty of guys in the F3 championships around the globe, and many in F3000 who could beat Alex Yoong with barely in time in an F1 car.

[The Fazz]

I don't think I can categorically state that Yoong is bad. I've followed much of his career from his start in Formula Asia. Formula Asia, admittedly is not a top series. Nevertheless, Yoong, without any single seater experience (not much kart experience either), did well and came second in his second year.

He then went over to England to further his career in single seater racing in Formula Renault in 1996. Sadly not long after that the financial crisis hit Asia and funds dried up for him. Much of the following years 1997-1999 was basically done hand to mouth fashion. He attempted F3 in 1998 and 1999, but it was only on a race by race basis. I remember on several occassions when Alex had to return to Malaysia straight after a race weekend to look for sponsors for the next races. Often he never returned to England having not found any sponsorship. I thought 1999 would be a better year, but no... again he had to endure the ignomity of having to beg for money back home so he could finish the season. Consequently he never completed a full F3 season in England. He did return to Europe only to contest the odd race or two in both the Italian F3000 and the International F3000. During this time there were flashes of talent, much like his fine 2nd finish in a rainy Donington in one of his handful of races in Italian F3000.

Subsequently he had to shift his focus to Japan, hoping that the close ties between Malaysia and Japan would result in better opportunities. It did for one season in 2001, but although the money was there, it was extremely limited that if he wrecked a car it would have been the end of his chance in F-Nippon. Also, his team in F-Nippon generally ran one year old chassis.

The story of Yoong's career has been one of shortage of funds, lack of local support, and having to ensure that he doesn't wreck any of his team's cars.

Whilst I admit that he is not top drawer material for F1, I can never be sure how much of this is down to circumstances against him. I am not surprised that Yoong is ever consciuos of how precarious his position in F1 is.

[benrapp]

What amazes me about you lot is the continuous idealism you all spout. Everybody slates Schumacher because his wins result from a package of car, team, contract and driving, rather than some heroic battle of talent against inferior machinery. In the same vein, it's "unfair" that Yoong is driving in F1 while better drivers such as Wilson languish in the metaphorical dole queue.

Racing isn't just about driving fast. It's largely about money -- finding it, using it well, keeping it coming for next season. Alex Yoong may not be the fastest driver out there, but he's done a better job of lining up sponsors and contractual opportunities than Wilson has.

Life is certainly a meritocracy, but advancement goes to those who are better at playing the whole game not just the visible contest.

I say all power to him. If I thought I could get the backing to compete in F1, even though I *know* I'd be way off the pace and DNQ for half the races, d'you think I'd pass up my seat so that Wilson (or any one of a 100 other fast youngsters) could have it? Would I bollocks. I'd defend it to the death, I'd have my drive written into sponsor's contracts, I'd be the best PR whore the world has ever seen (I could go on, but there are children present).

And if I were a team manager, and needed the sponsor's money, would I take me on as a driver (if you see what I mean). Of course I would. Why do you think Daytona, Le Mans and all the other high-profile races have such a high proportion of "amateur" or "self-funded" drivers. Because they pay for the racing, that's why. In enduros, the pay-driver gets shorter stints, or gets dumped with all the other pay drivers in the second car, so that the pros in the team have a shot at victory. A friend of mine was offered a drive in a top-line team's GT3 entry at Le Mans. He was a long way off the pace of the lead driver in the car but if he'd come up with the £50,000 they asked for, he'd have had a seat and some racing.

If Yoong loses his seat, it'll be because the Malaysian money isn't as much as was expected, or Minardi gets a better sponsor. For all Stoddart's protestations, I'd be stunned if there was no contractual connection between Yoong driving and the Magnum/KL money.

Well done, Alex. Like anyone who pays for his racing, I salute your success in getting someone else to pay for yours, and at the pinnacle of the sport to boot.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by benrapp
What amazes me about you lot is the continuous idealism you all spout. Everybody slates Schumacher because his wins result from a package of car, team, contract and driving, rather than some heroic battle of talent against inferior machinery. In the same vein, it's "unfair" that Yoong is driving in F1 while better drivers such as Wilson languish in the metaphorical dole queue.

Racing isn't just about driving fast. It's largely about money -- finding it, using it well, keeping it coming for next season. Alex Yoong may not be the fastest driver out there, but he's done a better job of lining up sponsors and contractual opportunities than Wilson has.

Life is certainly a meritocracy, but advancement goes to those who are better at playing the whole game not just the visible contest.

I say all power to him. If I thought I could get the backing to compete in F1, even though I *know* I'd be way off the pace and DNQ for half the races, d'you think I'd pass up my seat so that Wilson (or any one of a 100 other fast youngsters) could have it? Would I bollocks. I'd defend it to the death, I'd have my drive written into sponsor's contracts, I'd be the best PR whore the world has ever seen (I could go on, but there are children present).

And if I were a team manager, and needed the sponsor's money, would I take me on as a driver (if you see what I mean). Of course I would. Why do you think Daytona, Le Mans and all the other high-profile races have such a high proportion of "amateur" or "self-funded" drivers. Because they pay for the racing, that's why. In enduros, the pay-driver gets shorter stints, or gets dumped with all the other pay drivers in the second car, so that the pros in the team have a shot at victory. A friend of mine was offered a drive in a top-line team's GT3 entry at Le Mans. He was a long way off the pace of the lead driver in the car but if he'd come up with the £50,000 they asked for, he'd have had a seat and some racing.

If Yoong loses his seat, it'll be because the Malaysian money isn't as much as was expected, or Minardi gets a better sponsor. For all Stoddart's protestations, I'd be stunned if there was no contractual connection between Yoong driving and the Magnum/KL money.

Well done, Alex. Like anyone who pays for his racing, I salute your success in getting someone else to pay for yours, and at the pinnacle of the sport to boot.

Good for you but we'd still say you sucked, which is what everyone on here is saying, that he sucks at driving an F1 car, not that he isnt a good whore.

[KenC]

Good post, Fazz. Most people assume that since Yoong has backing now, that he's always had backing, and that's not true. He's like most drivers short of funds, short of seat time, and short of experience. The fact is, we hardly know how good Yoong is, since he started last mid-season with little testing, and this pre-season had something like 300 test miles before Australia. Comparing that to the other rookies, one wonders how he qualifies at all.

I pity any driver in the 2nd seat at a team short of funds, as they have no chance of besting their teammate without the equipment or seat time; and when they don't do better, everyone just says, "see, i told you so, he's a wanker"! Personally, I don't rate Webber that highly, either. He was hardly the best driver in F3000. I think Stoddardt is just building him up, in order to sell his contract on for next season.

[Alapan]

Very Fair article

One must not forget that Alex Yoong brings in much needed money to Minardi, and as a return on sponsorship he is great. He also seems to be very humble and keeps out of the press etc. You don't see him talking crap about how he expects to improve in the future and score consistent world champion points. However, I do think he is out of his league in F1, and so was Marques. They are just means to an end - ie getting enough money to race, and at that Yoong is one of the best...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by benrapp
Racing isn't just about driving fast. It's largely about money -- finding it, using it well, keeping it coming for next season. Alex Yoong may not be the fastest driver out there, but he's done a better job of lining up sponsors and contractual opportunities than Wilson has.

No its because of his powerful father and the Malaysian government. I dont buy the lack of funds excuse. he did Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, and Formula Nippon. It was more like he tried fast tracking himself to F1.

[benrapp]

Originally posted by tifosi
Good for you but we'd still say you sucked, which is what everyone on here is saying, that he sucks at driving an F1 car, not that he isnt a good whore.

No, that's not what they're saying, they're saying it's "not fair" that Yoong has the seat when others would go faster. My point is fairness = nonsense.

And I would suck, but hey, it'd be fun, and you'd all envy me secretly.

Of course I'd rather be Alonso than Yoong, but I'd rather be Yoong than not drive in F1.

[benrapp]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


No its because of his powerful father and the Malaysian government. I dont buy the lack of funds excuse. he did Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, and Formula Nippon. It was more like he tried fast tracking himself to F1.

I no unnerstan. Are you agreeing with me, or not? I'm not making excuses for Yoong (he's crap, by F1 standards), I'm saying precisely that he doesn't lack funds, and whether that's by getting his dad to help him persuade the Malaysian government to fund him, or by (Pedro Diniz) getting his dad to pay for it directly, that's all part of the game. Life is an antonym of fairness, right?

[100cc]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


No its because of his powerful father and the Malaysian government. I dont buy the lack of funds excuse. he did Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, and Formula Nippon. It was more like he tried fast tracking himself to F1.

Oh please, the Malaysian government couldn't give a **** about him when he was racing in the lower series'.

The Malaysian Government decided they needed an F1 driver fast, since they had a GP as well. Yoong was the fastest man that had any chance of getting an F1 seat. So the f1 fever caught them and they threw him into F Nippon, and I highly doubt it was one of the top teams, and then threw him into F1....into the least funded team of all

What does his father do btw???

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
No its because of his powerful father and the Malaysian government. I dont buy the lack of funds excuse. he did Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, and Formula Nippon. It was more like he tried fast tracking himself to F1.

You are wrong about his dad. I've met Hanifah Yoong himself and I can assure you that he does not have the Malaysian Government's left ear, as it were. He had to sell his own house to help Alex race in England. It was a struggle all of the way, Formula Renault, British F3, Italian F3000, International F3000 and FNippon were mainly ad-hoc driving arrangements based on the amount of money Yoong brought in (which was very little). As I mentioned, he frequently had to sit out several races due to inadequate sponsorship.

[Dunder]

I don't think he's good enough to be in F1, and whilst it may be true that MW get's the new parts I don't think Alex is anywhere near as diadvantaged as Marques was last year.

With that said, if the worst driver in F1 today is Yoong, we are pretty well off - it is not that long ago that we had the likes of Deletraz (actually he was one of a kind), we are pretty well off now.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by benrapp
No, that's not what they're saying, they're saying it's "not fair" that Yoong has the seat when others would go faster. My point is fairness = nonsense.

And I would suck, but hey, it'd be fun, and you'd all envy me secretly.

Of course I'd rather be Alonso than Yoong, but I'd rather be Yoong than not drive in F1.

- Okay, you may be right I quit reading once they started writing long stories, but anyways I just think he sucks. If he was able to get a seat however he then he deserves it but then hey Sarah Fisher deserves her seat then.

- Yes, your right I would be envious and yes I'd be at least as big a whore as you.

- Your right

[BRG]

Of course we should not blame Yoong for trying. If he can get the funds together to buy a seat, good luck to him. But what the Yoong situation highlights is the total failure of the FIA and FOCA to regulate the sport properly. By failing to enforce their own superlicence rules, they have allowed a free-for-all that devalues F1 as the peak to which the very best drivers should be aspiring.

The logical conclusion of the present situation is that all F1 seats should be auctioned off at the start of each season to the highest bidders, irrespective of whether they have any talent or not. The successful 26 or so can then pound around for their 500 miles of testing , and bingo, we have a F1 grid. Of course, none of us will have ever heard of any of them (except presumably good old Alex!) but who cares - think of all the money that they are bringing in! No more bankrupt teams, nor more having to pay Ralf or Eddie or Jacques all those $ millions.

Or we can restore and strengthen the entry requirements to keep out unqualified drivers. Demand some tough minimum levels of attainment, not just testing mileage. And if Peter Sauber doesn't like it, too bad. Personally I would favour a really stringent entry requirement - only admit drivers who had won a championship in (say) a decent F3 series, F3000, F. Nippon, CART and maybe a couple of other series (?IRL ). Yes, it would stop young talents like Kimi or Jenson getting into F1 until they had achieved more success but who would doubt that they would still have made it sooner or later. And look on the bright side - it would also have kept out Massa!

[Amir_S]

YES. He is that bad, probably worse than bad.
The F1 commentator on digital tv in sweden who is a racedriver himself pointed out that the guy is so bad that he even takes the wrong lines through some turnes. Now he did not mean that he turned in later or earlier , because all drivers have their own driving styles, he meant technichaly wrong as in not taking a corner the fastest way. I mean christ..... that's like a tennisplayer walking in to a US open tournament thinking that the racket should be held by its top head end rather than at the bottom end where the grip handle is.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by tifosi



Good for you but we'd still say you sucked, which is what everyone on here is saying, that he sucks at driving an F1 car, not that he isnt a good whore.

[flyer72]

The article is wrong, misleading and mediocre at best. Comparing Tarso and Alex is quite stupid and ignorant. Tarso was driving for a team that barely made it to the grid in 01, in a car with basically no testing at all, and the article calls it a slight improvement? During the season all efforts were put into making Alonso's car finish - Alonso had all the new parts and the spare car as well. Comparing Tarso who drove a second rate car to Alex who doesn't have different equipment than his teammate is not a fair comparison.

Tarso didn't get ndevelopments, gearboxes, aero changes or anything + Alonso was priority number one. Alex is getting special attention due to his links with the sponsor. If Yoong is set aside and won't come back into a driving role - the whole sponsorship deal with KL and Magnum might be in jeopardy. Tarso never had that sort of backing.

You cannot compare a number one driver and a number two driver if they are given different equipment. Face it - Stoddart saved Minardi from certain death, and that they made it to the grid in 01 is simply amazing - but he didn't spend money like crazy and the team barely had money for ONE car - what do you think Tarso was driving? Calling Tarso an experienced driver is also a little of the mark, he might be experienced in racing but his F1 experience isn't that thrilling. He had how many races behind him in F1? 2 races in 96 and 10 races in 97... He was without a drive in 98 and then went ot the States before coming back in 01. And all of it in a Minardi? And he was testing as well. Yeah, a tester for Minardi really gets a lot of milage done!

I'm not saying that Tarso is the second coming of Christ: but if you choose yr facts to quote and disregard a lot of other obvious facts, well, you are not really making a comparision of a team's performance... ie. the article sux.

[ensign14]

It's all relative. In his first drive at Monaco, in a Lotus 72 (which I daresay he had not yet driven), and on a wet surface, only a car problem prevented him from winning an historic race. So he is fundamentally so much better than I could ever be.

But, in his career to date, there have not been many drivers behind him. Anyone who has scored a point in F3000 or FNippon over the past couple of years has been faster. So there are a heap of drivers more worthy of a drive.

Let's put it this way...if he were Alex Young out of Coventry, would he have a drive?

[benrapp]

Originally posted by BRG
The logical conclusion of the present situation is that all F1 seats should be auctioned off at the start of each season to the highest bidders, irrespective of whether they have any talent or not

I'm not sure that would give a dissimilar result. The top teams would buy seats for their drivers in order to go racing, and the lower-order teams would find drivers with budgets to buy the seats for them. The world is not oversupplied with people willing to spend tens of millions of their own money going racing, and sponsors do tend to expect at least reasonable performance.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by ensign14
It's all relative. In his first drive at Monaco, in a Lotus 72 (which I daresay he had not yet driven), and on a wet surface, only a car problem prevented him from winning an historic race. So he is fundamentally so much better than I could ever be.

No, he's just learned how to drive a race car. Beating a bunch of rich middle aged men who own classic race cars as a hobby is not something to put on your resume in my opinion. I frequently beat up on those guys in American club racing, and ive never raced a Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, Formula Nippon, or F1 car.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld



No, he's just learned how to drive a race car. Beating a bunch of rich middle aged men who own classic race cars as a hobby is not something to put on your resume in my opinion. I frequently beat up on those guys in American club racing, and ive never raced a Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, Formula Nippon, or F1 car.

The fact that you have not raced in Europe may be why you don't appreciate the fact that none of the guys who place well from Formula Renault on up is slow and most would be series champions in any similar series in the US (F2000, Barber etc). It is sad but it is true.

Most US drivers just don't have the same level of commitment in the car as the average Euro driver. Richie Hearn is a good example. While he won Elf-Winfield he was not even a factor in the Formula renault series. He comes over the Atlantics and is one of the top guys. Our best Kart drivers go to the US Karting championship in NC and get their ass handed to them on thier home track. So even at the entry level they are faster. Look at Nakano. He has actually been running fairly well in CART this year and that is our best open wheel series. In F1, he was considered second rate. I don't even need to name the list of failed F1 drivers who never looked like winning a race who were or are regularly competetive in professional series in the US. Hell, even Tarso Marques qualifed mid pack for CART races.

No one in F1 is slow. The fast guys are just that fast. The below average F1 driver that you rag on could within 5-10 laps be down to your best time in your car at your best track. That is why they get paid the money they do when they are as good as MS, MH, JPM etc.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld



No, he's just learned how to drive a race car. Beating a bunch of rich middle aged men who own classic race cars as a hobby is not something to put on your resume in my opinion. I frequently beat up on those guys in American club racing, and ive never raced a Formula Renault, Formula 3, Formula 3000, Formula Nippon, or F1 car.

Some of them are pretty good. Martin Stretton or Peter Hardman for example.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by jimm


The fact that you have not raced in Europe may be why you don't appreciate the fact that none of the guys who place well from Formula Renault on up is slow and most would be series champions in any similar series in the US (F2000, Barber etc). It is sad but it is true.

The below average F1 driver that you rag on could within 5-10 laps be down to your best time in your car at your best track. That is why they get paid the money they do when they are as good as MS, MH, JPM etc.

Except ive raced in Europe, and am more knowledgeable and comitted to that arena than any other American driver.

You sound like Martin Brundle with his comment of "Alex Yoong doesn't appear to have the pace at the moment to be a frontline Grand Prix driver but he could still blow the doors off of just about any other formula in the world, such is the level of Formula 1 racing."

Which is absolute nonsense. Because Alex Yoong hasnt blown the doors off any series he's competed in. 21 of the 22 F1 drivers in the field this season are stars, thats a really good record. Alex Yoong's ability is inversely proportional. He's as bad as they are good. He is unqualified unprepared and undeserving of an F1 test contract, let alone race drive.

[mhferrari]

Being in Formula One as a pay driver does not mean that the driver is an excellent driver at all. I do not think he would be very successful in a lesser formula.

[vapaokie]

Absolutely he is that bad. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, until watching him for Sat and Sun morning practices through turns 4, 5, & 6 at Indy last year from the fence, just meters from the track. He can not put, nor can he keep, the car on the correct line with any kind of speed. He was so obviously below the level of all the other drivers, that it was just a sad joke seeing him try to get the car around the turns.

[padovani]

I think the article fails to establish a consistent benchmark to compare Yoong and Marques. The comparison between Alonso's and Webber's times is so subjective that the margin of error for that would be way bigger than the actual difference between the times of those two.

If the article fails at that, you lose the benchmark and then any comparison between Yoong's and Marques' times is no better than any other type of simple guessing.

[Amir_S]

Originally posted by vapaokie
Absolutely he is that bad. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, until watching him for Sat and Sun morning practices through turns 4, 5, & 6 at Indy last year from the fence, just meters from the track. He can not put, nor can he keep, the car on the correct line with any kind of speed. He was so obviously below the level of all the other drivers, that it was just a sad joke seeing him try to get the car around the turns.

That was just the point the guy on swedish digital tv was making. The man is not capable of even recognizing whta the fastest way through carner linewise is.

[Julius]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
He is bad. He was not a front runner in any series he contested, and is not qualified or deserving to be in F1.

I agree 100%.

[HardRock]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
He is bad. He was not a front runner in any series he contested, and is not qualified or deserving to be in F1.

I totaly agree with you too. He is bad

[jimm]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Except ive raced in Europe, and am more knowledgeable and comitted to that arena than any other American driver.

I stand corrected. However, I take that you no longer race to mean that it was not the most successful run? Did you do any better that Alex Yoong, Tarso Marques, Nakano etc? I don't mean to insult and I am sorry if it is. I'm just trying to prove my point.

I have two friends that went to Europe to race and one to be an engineer. Actually, one of the racing drivers won the lost the Elf-Wenfield by .08 sec and won the American runoffs by almost .5 .They share the same opinion that I have. For example. The second placed American woulld have not been in the top 20 had he been in the European group.

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

You sound like Martin Brundle with his comment of "Alex Yoong doesn't appear to have the pace at the moment to be a frontline Grand Prix driver but he could still blow the doors off of just about any other formula in the world, such is the level of Formula 1 racing."

Which is absolute nonsense. Because Alex Yoong hasnt blown the doors off any series he's competed in. 21 of the 22 F1 drivers in the field this season are stars, thats a really good record. Alex Yoong's ability is inversely proportional. He's as bad as they are good. He is unqualified unprepared and undeserving of an F1 test contract, let alone race drive.

But he has only run European series. I am betting that he would have faired much better in the US. I would love to say that US drivers are the cream of the crop but it is not true at the moment. Who is the best US driver in CART? Vasser, Andretti? neither are exactly setting the world on fire right now. I think the fault lies in the development series that are here. They stress the buisness side over the performance to a much greater extent than in Europe. The most successful feeder series (Barber) crap because of politics. Guys like Derek Hill and Casey Mears are now geting rides in major series (I guess IRL etc are major, Casey is in Bush now?) while other drivers that beat the crap out of them in the lower formula now pumping gas somewhere.

The current system does not select the best driver it selects the most connected/rich driver. I'm not saying that it does not happen in Europe but it is much less frequent and much much less at the top level.

As far as Yoong goes I doubt he would be blowing CDM off in CART but I bet he would not be last.

[HardRock]

Forget about all that, the guy is bad. Is very simple Yoong is a bad racing driver.

[eoin]

'Is Yoong really THAT bad?'

I am afraid so...the fact that he brings backing doesn't make him a better driver,just a better option.

[JForce]

The best part is that it shows that Tarso is even worse

Someone tell Dutra...and get a picture of his face for me

[The Sensational]

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Yes, Yoong may be better, statistically, than a below-par test driver - what the hell is that supposed to do to me? Make me jump for joy at the sad reality that, even although Minardi may have made a slightly less fatal error in putting that pile of slowness into a car this year, Alex Yoong sucks marginally less than I originally think he did?

Yoong and other paydrivers serve two distinct, and in many ways, very similar purposes. One is the offer the financial backing that, in this state of F1 affairs, keeps teams on the borderline on financial capability to continue racing. However, what does this create? It creates teams that comprimise safety for their drivers and others, forgoe testing due to financial restirctions, and offer very little to the racing spectacle itself.

The second purpose that they offer is to (the drivers) place themselves into highly-technical machinery, placing them in direct competition with some of the most talented drivers in the world, and giving them the capability to suject the likes of Schumacher and Villeneuve to their lack of skill, and consequently a far greater possibility of death or injury in a sport that is already dangerous enough.

So forgive me if I don't at your triumphant battle for Mr. Moneybaggs there who's statistical impressions beat his immediate driving impression (because that's so important), but even although he doesn't suck as much as many might think, he still finds himself extending and stretching the boundaries between talent and ineptitude.

In my opinion, it's not really that good of an article.

[Riker!]

Still, hes nearly had a season of F1, which is more than any of us will do.

He screwed the Superlicense sytem and for that

[senninha]

Originally posted by flyer72
The article is wrong, misleading and mediocre at best. Comparing Tarso and Alex is quite stupid and ignorant. Tarso was driving for a team that barely made it to the grid in 01, in a car with basically no testing at all, and the article calls it a slight improvement? During the season all efforts were put into making Alonso's car finish - Alonso had all the new parts and the spare car as well. Comparing Tarso who drove a second rate car to Alex who doesn't have different equipment than his teammate is not a fair comparison.

Tarso didn't get ndevelopments, gearboxes, aero changes or anything + Alonso was priority number one. Alex is getting special attention due to his links with the sponsor. If Yoong is set aside and won't come back into a driving role - the whole sponsorship deal with KL and Magnum might be in jeopardy. Tarso never had that sort of backing.

You cannot compare a number one driver and a number two driver if they are given different equipment. Face it - Stoddart saved Minardi from certain death, and that they made it to the grid in 01 is simply amazing - but he didn't spend money like crazy and the team barely had money for ONE car - what do you think Tarso was driving? Calling Tarso an experienced driver is also a little of the mark, he might be experienced in racing but his F1 experience isn't that thrilling. He had how many races behind him in F1? 2 races in 96 and 10 races in 97... He was without a drive in 98 and then went ot the States before coming back in 01. And all of it in a Minardi? And he was testing as well. Yeah, a tester for Minardi really gets a lot of milage done!

I'm not saying that Tarso is the second coming of Christ: but if you choose yr facts to quote and disregard a lot of other obvious facts, well, you are not really making a comparision of a team's performance... ie. the article sux.

Fully agree. What an stupid article!!

There is no way to compare Minardi's situation in 2001 with 2002.

At 2001 winter, nobody knew Minardi would race. Tarso's car was mounted for first time on friday (on Australia GP). Marques couldn't fit on the car. He had to qualifing and race without seat!!! The prove of it was FIA's permission to TM, allowing him to race (there wasn't a speed problem).

At British, TM failed on 107% due mixed conditions on qualifing. When the track dried, everybody went out to do times and Marques couldn't do a single lap, because others car on their warm-up laps didn't give a space to his Minardi!!

Marques did the best results for Minardi (2x at 9th place). Alonso even achieved it!! This is aprove 2001 Minardi was much worse than 2002 car.

[312 PB]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Except ive raced in Europe, and am more knowledgeable and comitted to that arena than any other American driver.

care to elaborate ?

don't forget to mention
antinucci and geibler

and euro experience
may not be so necessary now

just watch how quickly allmendinger
rises if he chooses euro open wheel

[ehagar]

Originally posted by jimm

Guys like Derek Hill and Casey Mears are now geting rides in major series (I guess IRL etc are major, Casey is in Bush now?) while other drivers that beat the crap out of them in the lower formula now pumping gas somewhere.

Derek Hill missed out on a Indy Lights ride because his driving was considered to erratic and he spun to much in testing. While sometimes impressive, he wasn't a Formula Atlantic frontrunner. 13th in the series at the end of the year. What I find amazing is that he isn't total pants in F3000 this year.

Casey Mears was a champ when Indy Lights was pretty much dead. He was a oval specialist. A decent racer, but probably not a star.

Alex Gurney ran with a Renault engine in British F-3. He was quite average although towards the end of the year he had a few impressive runs.

I would argue that the drivers you picked weren't the cream of the crop from America.

[petri]

Good posting Jimm! It would be great for F1 to find decent American driver! I'm sure Bernie has searched a suitable American talent for a long time (imagine all the biz that would become possible) but there just ain't any.. The money is no problem, the salaries are much higher in F1 than in the US .

ps. Just heard that Yoong will be replaced by a BAR test-driver Anthony Davidson for the next race!

[jimm]

Originally posted by ehagar


Derek Hill missed out on a Indy Lights ride because his driving was considered to erratic and he spun to much in testing. While sometimes impressive, he wasn't a Formula Atlantic frontrunner. 13th in the series at the end of the year. What I find amazing is that he isn't total pants in F3000 this year.

Casey Mears was a champ when Indy Lights was pretty much dead. He was a oval specialist. A decent racer, but probably not a star.

Alex Gurney ran with a Renault engine in British F-3. He was quite average although towards the end of the year he had a few impressive runs.

I would argue that the drivers you picked weren't the cream of the crop from America.

My whole point of bringing them up is that they aren't the best from the US. The best from the US get their career's squashed in the beginning if there is no famous name or no family fortune. Even in Barber which is suposed to level the field with even cars etc, the guys with connections, money or a family name get better treatment and end up moving on. Because the guy who gets the ride is not determined by talent but money the series are not as competitive as they should be and don't weed out the slower guys

The fact that we know all of Casey Mears' career moves proves it is not about talent.

[pit5bul]

so do you think he's good than ?
no mate he's the worst driver i've seen in F1 !!! :

[jimm]

Originally posted by pit5bul
so do you think he's good than ?
no mate he's the worst driver i've seen in F1 !!! :

That may be like saying he is the poorist millionare you've ever met

[Flying Panda]

There is a major flaw in that article.

Maques qualified for both the Australian and Belgian Grands Prix last year... :

[Daemon]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
There is a major flaw in that article.

Maques qualified for both the Australian and Belgian Grands Prix last year... :

He was included after the race meetings team managers conference, as he was consisdered experienced enough to stay out of trouble. He was outside the 107% in the Australian GP for sure, but I can't remember the Belgian.

The major flaw is comparing a guy like Marques to someone of Yoongs calibre. Marques actually drove a few races for Sauber in, I think, '97. He didn't exactly set the F1 world on fire, and all in all he was pretty average, but he did a somewhat competant job.

[scokim]

Originally posted by Riker!


He screwed the Superlicense sytem and for that

For sure, and Kimi had to be on probation. What a joke !

BTW, an article in F1 Racing said that Yoong's sponsors agreed to pay $20mil, then it came down to $8mil and now apparently, Stoddart is still waiting for the full $8mil to come in.