49 replies to this topic

[Barry Lake]

Racing drivers achieve everlasting fame, it seems, by simply starting in a world championship Grand Prix. (I say “simply”, but it can’t be that simple, because I never did it).

Now we have non-qualifiers made famous for all time, and even non-qualifiers for the Indianapolis 500 in the years it counted for the world championship, because they rate on numerous lists on the web.

So why not similar fame for all the drivers who started Grands Prix in the 1895-1949 era?

We have Hans Etzrodt’s list of GP races for that span of time now, so what about a list of drivers, with place and date of birth, place and date of death?

Maybe Hans could whip up such a list himself - say, by this time next week, eh, Hans?

Jokes aside, I wonder has Hans considered what constitutes a GP driver in the way he drew up guide lines for GP races? I haven’t really looked into it, I’m just thinking about it here and now, but does a single start in one listed GP, perhaps with a huge entry list, constitute being a GP driver? It would seem this is the case with the post-1949 lists.

And, come to think of it, should there be a secondary post-1949 list for non-championship GPs?

Well, I hate to think all these statisticians are sitting around with nothing to do…

[Darren Galpin]

Mutter mutter mutter grumble grumble grumble. I must be strong, I must resist the temptation..... I'm busy enough as it is!

[Racer.Demon]

Well, Barry, I'd hate to think how huge Small's Grand Prix Who's Who would become when we include profiles of all said drivers, i.e. every driver included on a (non-championship) "Grand Prix" entry list since the dawn of time... One volume for every two years? It would dwarf the Black Books!

BTW, Felix in conjunction with Forix's Joao Paulo Cunha once made a start on the electronic version by trying to creating the pre-war and post-war non-championship equivalent of Forix, but this proved to be such an arduous task that it stopped at being a database-based winners list (so not of the plain-text kind Hans and I separately created). Somewhere in the back of my mind is still the idea that the whole of TNF could work together in (almost) completing this Forix section - which would become at least ten times as big as the current World Championship database - but I have all but given up hope that this will ever happen. Heck, I have tried to tempt TNF folk several times but understandably they cringe at the amount of work laying ahead of them.

And then there's the issue that in doing this we would probably be raiding most of Sheldon's work, add our collected TNF corrections and additions, and put it all on the Internet for free. That would not be a polite thing to do after all the work Sheldon put into it. On the other hand, having an overall, publicly accessible database of all Grand Prix results, that could be adapted on-line through the results of our combined investigations, would be of great value and meaning to the advancement of historic motorsport research. So I'm not sure whether politeness should stand in the way when it's for the good of all interested parties, whether they be professional or amateur.

How does the rest of TNF feel about this?

[quintin cloud]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Mutter mutter mutter grumble grumble grumble. I must be strong, I must resist the temptation..... I'm busy enough as it is!

I must join you on that one.

[Vitesse2]

Surely before we can define what a Grand Prix driver is, we must define exactly what a Grand Prix race is, Barry?

Hans' list contains some races not in Sheldon and vice versa. He uses slightly different criteria to Mattijs too, as we discovered in another thread recently. The only common theme seems to be the exclusion of handicaps - but even Hans breaks his own rule there (see his list guidelines).

This is not meant as a criticism Hans, but you exclude the Swedish Winter GPs (raced on ice) while including the La Baule GP (raced on sand). Neither can be defined as a permanent circuit, so I'm not sure of the difference ....

Mattijs:
I'm not sure that putting all this on the web is really a problem any more. Certainly we are all aware of the vast amount of work which went into the Black Books, but by their very rarity and exclusivity, they amount almost to censorship! (I feel the same about Palawan Press books too, but that's a different argument!) The F1 register could probably not have existed without the work of earlier results compilers - King-Farlow, Walkerley etc etc.

Much of what Sheldon "discovered" was not new, merely overlooked or forgotten. What was new was the way it was compiled, laying the groundwork for a proper history of the sport. All history writing and research evolves, with new interpretation of known facts in the light of new information: what Sheldon and his band did was very important, but had the Internet been around thirty or so years ago when they started publishing their findings I think we would be very much further down the road to a definitive record of Grand Prix racing. I would be interested to know how Paul Sheldon himself feels about others using his data ....

As I see it, we have three major results resources - Hans' list, your 6th Gear list and Quintin's site - plus Leif's site for the post-1934 period. Unless and until we can agree on a definition of a GP race, these four will continue to diverge and disagree. Hans keeps giving us hints of great things to come from the vast Pacific, which I await impatiently, but that definition of a GP race is the important starting point for any comprehensive driver list.

Having said that, I'd say the best way to compile this is in "bite-size" chunks - the changes in the GP Formula give us convenient cut-offs in 1931, 1934, 1937 and 1947, although the twenties would be more difficult. If different people, or groups of people, work on different periods, it would simplify the task and certainly make it a lot less daunting than thinking "1896-1949 - I'll never finish that in my lifetime ....". Luckily, Hans was undaunted ....

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Surely before we can define what a Grand Prix driver is, we must define exactly what a Grand Prix race is, Barry?

Richard, while Hans and I (and probably Darren - you forgot to mention his site! - and Quintin as well) disagree on the criteria, it's only on petty details. The general definition is very clear and we all agree on that - a race open to contemporary acknowledged top-class (Grand Prix, F1, F2 in '52-'53, etc.) machinery, with at least one or two of these actually participating (hence my inclusion of, say, the 1980 Australian GP). The details are things such as the Scandinavian ice races (in as far as I'm concerned, out in Hans' view). I think these issues are solved quite easily by including some sort of remark on their questionable "Grand Prix" status. I'd rather be inclusive in a better-safe-than-sorry kind of approach than shut out many of these events. I don't see any harm in a collection of races that is a bit too big for some people's taste.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I'm not sure that putting all this on the web is really a problem any more. Certainly we are all aware of the vast amount of work which went into the Black Books, but by their very rarity and exclusivity, they amount almost to censorship! (I feel the same about Palawan Press books too, but that's a different argument!) The F1 register could probably not have existed without the work of earlier results compilers - King-Farlow, Walkerley etc etc.

I'm glad you feel the same way. And the approach of splitting work up into bite-size chunks appeals to me too. The next is thing is agreeing on using Forix as a ready-made database and accepting some of its downsides, or getting stuck on endless discussions about the "ideal" database format, as we have done before...

Having chosen option one, the actual work should all be done with Joao Paulo's support and blessing, of course. To have this process work seamlessly, he should provide opportunities for these groups, or one of their representatives, to access, create and update a test version of (their chunck of) the database, after which the group as a whole could make a decision on actually publishing it once it has reached an reasonable stage of definitiveness. The Who's Who-style driver profiles that Barry mentions could be added on the go, just as Richie's "Where are they now?" data is now included on Forix's driver pages as well.

TNF would serve as an open forum for discussing odds and ends for the respective eras.

So I suppose you have just tempted me into trying to interest TNF people for this project once again

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


Richard, while Hans and I (and probably Darren - you forgot to mention his site! - and Quintin as well) disagree on the criteria, it's only on petty details. The general definition is very clear and we all agree on that - a race open to contemporary acknowledged top-class (Grand Prix, F1, F2 in '52-'53, etc.) machinery, with at least one or two of these actually participating (hence my inclusion of, say, the 1980 Australian GP). The details are things such as the Scandinavian ice races (in as far as I'm concerned, out in Hans' view). I think these issues are solved quite easily by including some sort of remark on their questionable "Grand Prix" status. I'd rather be inclusive in a better-safe-than-sorry kind of approach than shut out many of these events. I don't see any harm in a collection of races that is a bit too big for some people's taste.

Oops! Sorry Darren! I go along with everything you say there Mattijs, but I note you've still avoided defining what is or isn't "questionable"! I used the Swedish ice races and La Baule as examples above - they seem to exemplify one problem, but by extension, where does that leave the 1930s Vanderbilt races, which were held on what was to all intents and purposes a temporary dirt track?. Consigning some races to appendices on the grounds of the surface they were run on seems somewhat illogical to me. I'd include them all. Handicaps are a different matter of course, but I think these would need to be looked at on a race-by-race basis - my rule of thumb would be to include a handicap if it was ever held as a scratch race in another year or years: this would neatly include (for example) all the Australian GPs, some of the Irish races and some of the more important Brooklands and Donington races, while omitting the vast majority of essentially club-level handicaps that happened to have a GP Bugatti in them.

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I'm glad you feel the same way. And the approach of splitting work up into bite-size chunks appeals to me too. The next is thing is agreeing on using Forix as a ready-made database and accepting some of its downsides, or getting stuck on endless discussions about the "ideal" database format, as we have done before...

Having chosen option one, the actual work should all be done with Joao Paulo's support and blessing, of course. To have this process work seamlessly, he should provide opportunities for these groups, or one of their representatives, to access, create and update a test version of (their chunck of) the database, after which the group as a whole could make a decision on actually publishing it once it has reached an reasonable stage of definitiveness. The Who's Who-style driver profiles that Barry mentions could be added on the go, just as Richie's "Where are they now?" data is now included on Forix's driver pages as well.

TNF would serve as an open forum for discussing odds and ends for the respective eras.

So I suppose you have just tempted me into trying to interest TNF people for this project once again

Sounds good to me ....

[Wolf]

Barry, first of all. I'm happy to see You safe and sound after that PM I sent You (apparently, didn't bore You to death, if that's any consolation)...

Second, I did make lists of '46-60(and something) participants (one for WDC events and one for drivers who participated only in non-c'ship races up to that point) and post them here for discussion (will dig out the link later), and even some pre-WDC races did cause some debate as to whether they are to be considered Grand Prix or not...

But, I generally agree with discussion so far, and still would like to see such a list for pre-war era, which could even be initialy outlined by one BB member (with inclination to do so) and constantly updated, discussed and revised in a thread of its own.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Surely before we can define what a Grand Prix driver is, we must define exactly what a Grand Prix race is, Barry?.....

From my list you can remove the handicap races and the sand races at La Baulle. I will do so myself soon, to exclude all handicap events and the La Baulle races.
1 - Three Bugatti G'sP (1928, 29, 30).
2 - The South African races in 1937 and 38 apply to my knowledge.
3 - The 1930 Morocco GP and Algerian GP fall both in this category.
4 - Remove the La Baulle events (1926-1929, 1931-1933).
5 - I would not include the ice races, which never appeared on my list.
6 - What about the many Brooklands races? That's a chapter in itself.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
..... Much of what Sheldon "discovered" was not new, merely overlooked or forgotten. What was new was the way it was compiled, laying the groundwork for a proper history of the sport. All history writing and research evolves, with new interpretation of known facts in the light of new information: .....

I don't think you can protect data in itself. I started my list from books by Paul Sheldon & Group. In the end his was just one of many sources. His results come from magazines and racing programs, as I understand.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
..... Hans keeps giving us hints of great things to come from the vast Pacific, which I await impatiently .....

Is this in reference to the web site I still want to start this year?

[Hans Etzrodt]

In my soon to come update of the list, the handicap races shown below will have been removed. That will free my site of all handicap events. Should someone see any remaining besides these 11 handicappers, I will appreciate you telling me so. I changed my mind and will keep the La Baulle beach races for now.

Bugatti Grand Prix on June 24, 1928
Bugatti Grand Prix on June 2, 1929
Bugatti Grand Prix on June 1, 1930
Morocco GP on April 21, 1930
Algerian GP on May 11, 1930
South African Border 100 on December 27, 1934
South African GP on January 1, 1936
South African GP on January 1, 1937
Grosvenor GP on January 16, 1937
Rand GP on December 16, 1937
South African GP on January 1, 1938

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
In my soon to come update of the list, the handicap races shown below will have been removed. That will free my site of all handicap events. Should someone see any remaining besides these 11 handicappers, I will appreciate you telling me so. I changed my mind and will keep the La Baulle beach races for now.

Bugatti Grand Prix on June 24, 1928
Bugatti Grand Prix on June 2, 1929
Bugatti Grand Prix on June 1, 1930
Morocco GP on April 21, 1930
Algerian GP on May 11, 1930
South African Border 100 on December 27, 1934
South African GP on January 1, 1936
South African GP on January 1, 1937
Grosvenor GP on January 16, 1937
Rand GP on December 16, 1937
South African GP on January 1, 1938

Hans, may I enquire abou those mentioned handicap races before they disappear altogether.
I have no results at all of the three Bugatti Grand Prix, the same goes for Morocco and Algiers in 1930.
For the SA races I have top three finishers of each of them, with the exception of Grosvenor GP, where I have no information. Maybe you or someone else can fill the gaps? Thanks a lot.

Udo

[David McKinney]

Although I hate handicap races from a historic relevancy standpoint, I accept that they happened, and would personally keep them in as long as I had the scratch results as well. That way those who want to could, for example, track Rosemeyer's Auto Union career more thoroughly. Scratch results are available for the South African races, though perhaps not for the Bugatti GPs.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Algerian Grand Prix
A good handicap allowed Etancelin to win ahead of Lehoux and Dreyfus.

May 11, 1930 The Algerian Grand Prix was part of a program celebrating the century duration of French supremacy in Algeria. The races took place on the 7.2 km Staouéli circuit near Algiers. The entry was predominantly French and the contenders were very much the same as in the Oran Grand Prix the previous weekend. René Dreyfus, whose engine exploded in Oran, was fortunate that Count Czaykowski offered to lend him the 2.3-liter 8-cylinder engine out of his Bugatti T43 roadster. The engine was the same as in the T35B grand prix car used by Dreyfus. The handicap of each driver was determined by the times achieved in the heat races during the morning. Dreyfus and the Algerian champion, Marcel Lehoux, were the only drivers without a handicap. A lucky Etancelin with the same 2.3-liter Bugatti T35B was given a 4m20s handicap. In the heat races Dupont with the 1.1-liter Amilcar and Lehoux and Dreyfus with 2.3-liter Bugattis placed first.

The final race of the Algerian Grand Prix, a 3-hour handicap race, was held in the afternoon with many spectators. Even the warlike Tuareg tribal chiefs from the Hoggar region had accepted the invitation of the French authorities and on the grand stand mixed with French citizens, their ladies and French military. Michel Doré, who was an early leader, had to retire with a broken valve. Etancelin moved ahead, while Lehoux and Dreyfus were engaged in a closely fought battle for most of the race. Jean Hiercourt and Mme. Itier had a little fight of their own. Unfortunately, the race claimed the life of another famous woman driver. When trying to pass a slower car, the Baroness d'Erlen went off the road in her 2-liter Bugatti and hit a telegraph pole. She was thrown out of her car and was killed instantly. Dreyfus might have passed Lehoux if a stone had not shattered his goggles. He lost a good minute when stopping for a new pair. Mme. Itier also lost a lot of time when her car went into several spins. Philippe Etancelin, with a 4m20s handicap, was the winner. He completed 274 km in the three hour race. Lehoux and Dreyfus were next in the same Type 35B Bugatti. Then came José Scaron's fast 1.1-liter Amilcar ahead of Jean de Maleplane's 2.0-liter Bugatti. Sixth was Count Czaykowski followed by Hiercourt, Mme. Itier and Avon.

On May 18, the Bugatti Grand Prix took place on the same circuit. This race was not to be confused with the Bugatti Grand Prix organized by the Molsheim factory. It was, however, also a handicap race, open for any Bugatti car, to enable cars with small engines to gain victory. The 2.3-liter T35B and T43, as well as the 2-liter T35C, had to do 42 laps or 302.4 km. The 1.5-liter T37A with supercharger and models up to 3-liter had to go for 39 laps or 280.8 km. The 1.5-liter T37 without supercharger and Brescia models had to do only 37 laps or 266.4 km. Marcel Lehoux won after Etancelin's engine developed a bearing defect. Second came Bonville, then Vincenti and Rallo.

Etancelin and Lehoux were also victorious when driving alternately a Bugatti in an eight hour race in Algiers where they completed 122 laps or 878.4 km. Second place went to Bellincioni and Dupont with an Alfa Romeo ahead of Pagnier and Hiercourt in a Bugatti.

Results:
Staouéli Circuit, Algiers: 4.474 mi (7.200 km) 3 Hours, handicap formula

1 - P. Etancelin (Bugatti T35B) 274.728 km
2 - M. Lehoux (Bugatti T35B) 267.025 km
3 - R. Dreyfus (Bugatti T35B) 265.224 km
4 - J. Scaron (Amilcar 1100 cc) 255.300 km
5 - J. de Maleplane (Bugatti T35C) 253.600 km
6 - S. Czaykowski (Bugatti T37A) 259.600 km
7 - J. Hiercourt (Bugatti T37)
8 - Ms. A. Rose-Itier (Rally 1100 cc)
9 - Avon (Bugatti 1500 cc)
DNF - M. Doré (Bugatti T37A) broken valve
DNF - E. Dupont (Amilcar 1100 cc)
? -
? -
DNF - Ms. d'Erlen (Bugatti 2.000 cc) fatal accident

Winner's race distance: Philippe Etancelin (Bugatti) 170.716 mi (274.728 km)
Fastest lap: not available
Weather: good weather © 1/96 H.E

[Felix Muelas]

Some images from Le Livre de Bord d´un Pilote de Grand Prix related to the 1930 Algerian Grand Prix...just to illustrate it a bit ;)



The track...


Click for larger image

An advert...



the results...


Click for larger image

and some curious visitors, believed to be the Touareg Chiefs, the Great Warriors of Hoggar, obviously dressed as one would expect and with their guns at hand...tough times, you know...



Click for larger image

[Hans Etzrodt]

Morocco Grand Prix
A good handicap enabled local Benitah's cyclecar to beat Lehoux's Bugatti.

April 21, 1930 The Grand Prix of Morocco in North Africa, originally planned for April 13, had been postponed for one week due to the stormy weather. This handicap race took place on Easter Monday on the 6.716 km long Anfa circuit * near Casablanca.

A short sports car race opened the day, early in the morning, at 7:00 a. m. After a brief pause the main event started with interruptions between 9:45 a. m. and 11:35 a. m. Of the 15 entries in this handicap for racing cars, only five were going to make it to the finish. The two 1.1-liter cycle cars of Benitah and Rose-Itier both with a 1h58min handicap were the first to take off at 9:45 A.M. Later two 1.5-liter Bugattis without supercharger followed, both with a 1h13m minute handicap. Then came a 1.5-liter Bugatti with supercharger and a number of 2.0-liter supercharged Bugattis with 31 minutes handicap. The 2.3-liter Bugattis with no handicap started last.

The good handicap made it possible for Moroccan Benitah to win with his 1.1-liter Amilcar ahead of the fastest driver, local Marcel Lehoux, in his 2.0-liter Bugatti. Next was Jean Hiercourt in his 1.5-liter Bugatti, followed by Mme. Anne Rose-Itier in her 1.1-liter Rally in fourth place. Last, in the large T35B Bugatti, was Rumanian (corrected Sep 6: born 1901 in Italy) Geoffredo Zehender, who lived in Paris. During the race Zehender's foot brake failed and he had to do the long race with only the hand brake. Philippe Etancelin had similar bad luck and did not make it to the finish.

Results:
* It is controversial if the race really took place on the Anfa Circuit, Casablanca: 4.173 mi (6.716 km).
Handicap race of 440.883 mi (709.500 km)

1 - C. Benitah (Amilcar 1100 ccm), 69.410 mph, 1h58min handicap
2 - M. Lehoux (Bugatti T35C) 2000 ccm, 92.961 mph, 31min handicap
3 - Jean Hiercourt (Bugatti T37) 1500ccm, 1h13min handicap
4 - Ms. A. Rose-Itier (Rally) 1100 ccm, 1h58min handicap
5 - G. Zehender (Bugatti T35B) 2300 ccm, no handicap
DNF - P. Etancelin (Bugatti T35C) 2000 ccm, 31min handicap
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?
DNF ?

Winner's average speed: 69.410 mph (111.700 km/h)
Fastest lap: not available
Weather: good weather © 1/96 H.E.

[David McKinney]

The results posted by Hans are presumably the handicap results, ie the order they finished the race, and the time it took them to do it.
The results from Felix's "cup" are in a slightly different order, but the times given seem to be net, ie ignoring the handicaps. Problem is, each driver has taken just over two hours for a 3hr race. Which is possible if the "limit" car was very slow

Hans, I for one appreciate your posting of the race detail (presumably before you consign it to the wastebasket?)

[pedro]

This is the sort of thread I should not attempt to participate in. I'm not a researcher, I'm a consumer of information, and I will avidly devour anything you happen to come up with, but don't feel I have any right to to get involved with the finer details of how you come up with it.

But all this quibbling about what should or should not be included distresses me, and can only delay the project, abort it altogether, or cause the end-product to be less than it might have been otherwise.

It seems obvious that nobody can ever adequately define "what is a Grand Prix", but I cannot see the need for any concensus definition. Concensus always involves compromise, and if everyone is going to have to 'throw away' data just because it falls outside someone else's definition of what should be included, then the resultant database is going to be so much the poorer.

Hans has just proved my point - moments after saying he is going to exclude the Algerian GP of 1930, he posts a fascinating account of that race! Ah, but it was a handicap, so let's consign it to the waste bin of history.

Incidentally, I don't know why the current concensus is to exclude handicaps. Look at 1987-8: The turbo cars were given increasingly severe boost restrictions and fuel limits, for what reason? To attempt to restrict their performance relative to that of the non-turbos. Er, isn't that handicapping? In the BTCC there is a very blatant form of handicapping whereby winners are forced to carry ballast in the following race. So, imagine if, in 2008, when Schumacher has just won his 9th straight championship, the FIA look to BTCC and think, hmmm, there's an idea which might help restore spectator interest... So, the F1WC becomes a handicap series, and suddenly the history books have to be rewritten so that handicaps have always been important.

Surely it is best to agree on a division of labour - who get which years, and then let everyone decide on their own criteria. Then it is up to future historians to look at the accumulated data and make their own additions and amendments. If the 1924 researcher decides to include a race for farm tractors, and someone in 2050 decides that all farm tractor races should be included, so be it.

But, having said all that, I would be interseted to know precisely just what your individual criteria are - how do you all answer the question "what is a Grand Prix"? (Vitesse seems to imply that this has already been done in another thread, so perhaps a link to that would suffice).

The general definition is very clear and we all agree on that - a race open to contemporary acknowledged top-class (Grand Prix, F1, F2 in '52-'53, etc.) machinery, with at least one or two of these actually participating

(Racer.demon)

Yes, so is everyone agreed on the definition of 'contempory', 'acknowledged' and 'top-class'? Not to mention "one or two" and "actually participating"?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon

Richard, while Hans and I (and probably Darren - you forgot to mention his site! - and Quintin as well) disagree on the criteria, it's only on petty details. The general definition is very clear and we all agree on that - a race open to contemporary acknowledged top-class (Grand Prix, F1, F2 in '52-'53, etc.) machinery, with at least one or two of these actually participating (hence my inclusion of, say, the 1980 Australian GP). The details are things such as the Scandinavian ice races (in as far as I'm concerned, out in Hans' view). I think these issues are solved quite easily by including some sort of remark on their questionable "Grand Prix" status. I'd rather be inclusive in a better-safe-than-sorry kind of approach than shut out many of these events. I don't see any harm in a collection of races that is a bit too big for some people's taste.

For my own purposes (ie, I want to know everything) the broader the definition the better. I agree with Mattijs's definition, knowing that this would include the Scandinavian ice races, most Australian, New Zealand and South African libre races, a lot of Brooklands races and so on.
And if you're going that far, why not include handicaps? How can you include, for example, three 1936 British scratch races and not three others which had exactly the same entry?
Surely one of the attractions of such data is the facility it offers for researchers to trace the careers of individual drivers and cars - so the more information that's available the better.
If that is not acceptable then the definition needs to be much stricter - limited perhaps to races run to Grand Prix regulations. That would certainly make a more manageable list. But the difficulty then comes in the late 1920s and early 1930s, when only one or two races were run to GP regs each year. So you list only one or two races.

[Barry Lake]

I can see both sides of the discussion here. I have been through the same agonising with Australian race results, most of which were handicaps in the first 50 years of Australia's motor racing history.

On the one hand, you don't want to glorify people who won simply because the handicapper was trying to bonk the driver's sister, or whatever. On the other hand, as David says, you want to have a record of all the cars and drivers that ran in handicap races for when you're tracing histories of the various cars and drivers.

The solution, in my mind, is to have two lists. One is of genuine GP style races won (usually) by the most worthy car/driver combination. The other is of lesser races and handicap races for the purposes stated above.

It doesn't seem like a major problem to me (other than the mass of work involved, of course).

But I wholeheartedly support what Hans is trying to achieve, ie a list that represents the most successful cars and drivers in "real" races, throughout the history of the sport.

And I also support David McKinney's goals in recording "everything".

But I believe they need to remain two separate entities. With computers, combining them and separating them is no problem, after all.

My original suggestion was for a list of "GP" drivers. But I realise, now, that such a list is impossible until a "GP" is defined.

Possibly, if I had the time to analyse it closely, I might disagree with Hans on some points. Unfortunately I can't spare the time. And as he seems to be the one working hardest. longest and most diligently on this particular subject, I am willing to go with what he says.

When I attempted the same thing many years ago with far less information at hand, I tended to rate a race on the strength of the entry rather than on anything else. In the absence of organised championships such as today's world driver's championship, I always felt that - rather as in boxing - it was more a matter of who you beat, rather than how many races you won.

That is, I didn't really rate a race no matter how grandiose the title, how great the distance, if the winner had no real opposition.

A race of lesser title, shorter distance etc meant more to me if the winner had to beat some really serious opposition to win.

It was mostly on this basis that I chose my "Driver of the Year" and in many cases, this differed from Hans' Driver of the Year. But then, as I said, I had far less information. Now, with more info at hand, my list might more closely resemble Hans' list of top drivers.

But really, isn't what is being discussed here basically the Sheldon "Black Books" filed electronically, with mistakes corrected and additions included? And what's wrong with that? Racer.Demon has said that wouldn't be the polite thing to do. But, as I understand it, Sheldon has no intention of publishing revised editions of his books. If so, he's done his thing, achieved fame within our community, presumanbly made a dollar or two (though nowhere near compensation for the time involved), gained a lot of self satisfaction, and will be remembered and thanked for his input (and Rabagliatti's and other helpers') for longer than his lifetime, I would guess.

Biggest problem, I believe, would be in the method of storing it. A database would be the best way, but there was lengthy discussion on database methods in another thread and I don't think there was a definitive answer.

When I requested race results from TNFers (Le Mans 24 hour race, recently - winners only) they came in such a wide variety of forms it was bewildering.

Does anyone want to make a new start on discussing methods of storing such information?

For my two bits worth, I would say it needs to be a simple yet effective database so it can be pulled up as race winners, as individual race results, as a list of a make, model or particular chassis of car, as a driver's history, etc.

The simplest, potentially most effective method I have seen was sent to me by Rob Ryder (is he still around?). I passed a sample on to Fines (Michael Ferner - where is he lately?) and he changed his then-quite-new database along similar lines. It is done on an Excel spreadsheet rather than a true database. Perhaps the latter is better in some ways, but I liked the simplicity of this one.

And, as I said, it could be sorted by individual races, by driver, by car type, by chassis number, etc.

Other things have to be standardised, such as method of describing a car - Lotus 49 Cosworth, or Lotus-Cosworth 49, as a quick example.

And driver's name. I hate "Clark, Jim.", prefer Jim Clark. If you wish to sort the latter by surname, you need a column for first name, a column for last name. That way, individuals can adapt them however they like. With a spreadsheet, it is easy to rearrange the columns in different order if anyone so wishes.

Any suggestions?

[Racer.Demon]

So what do we agree on?

"Grand Prix": I guess we all want to be inclusive but not to the point of including too much. Barry suggests splitting the list up into categories - which is exactly what Hans and I have already done on our lists, separating "real" Grands Prix, major races and minor races (so actually three lists within one list). You still will have discussion on what consists a major race and a minor race, but I suggest that we shouldn't let these discussions get in the way of actually doing some work. I suspect, no, I know we will agree on the bulk. And as I said, you can always include a (major) handicap race or whatever and note it was such a race. Yes, I think it's that simple! In many ways I think the discussion on what should be on the list or shouldn't, is highly irrelevant, especially when it has the danger of it becoming endless and keeping us from getting things done. I think Pedro made a sensible contribution on this issue. As long as we don't start including F2, Le Mans or bloody touring cars... (If only to save us from incurring the wrath of Stefan or Frank!)

"Using" Sheldon: I think we now all agree that Sheldon has now become "a source" and should be treated as every other source.

The actual work: should be split up into parts and divided among interested groups, that will each use a TNF thread to report on their progress and discuss odds and ends.

The format: I'm afraid this will continue to be the bone of the debate. There are still two possible routes: either go with what's already there (i.e. Forix) or develop a new format, with the proviso that it must be "browsable", maintained centrally on a webserver and be selectively accessible for individual groups within a structure of clear and unquestionable rights. Barry, I know the practicality of an Excel file on a stand-alone PC, but for our purposes it is totally unsuitable. There will be dozens of different versions circulating within no time, and that's not what we want. Furthermore, a database has many advantages over a spreadsheet in that you can do queries that will allow you to represent (slices of) data in an infinite number of ways. The result of our work would not just be "a list" with separate columns that you can sort individually, it should also be able to reproduce an individual entry list, starting grid, result, anything, in a way that we are used to.

The boss(es) : a work of this magnitude can't be done without some friendly but authoritative guidance. Who wants to be part of a committee of sorts to set the ball rolling and keep it on the move?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Bugatti Grand Prix
June 24, 1928
Le Mans, Circuit de la Sarthe: 16 laps x 10.727 mi (17.262 km) = 171.626 mi (276.192 km)
1 - A. Dubonnet (T37)
2 - L.P. de Rothschild (T27)
3 - G. Zehender (T37A)
4 – “Williams” (T37)
? - A total of 29 cars was entered at this handicap race.



Bugatti Grand Prix
June 2, 1929
Le Mans, Circuit de la Sarthe: 25 laps x 10.166 mi (16.360 km) = 254.153 mi (409.000 km)
1 - J. Zanelli (T35C) in 3h13m45.0s = 126.649 km/h
2 - R. Gauthier (T35C) in 3h16m36.6s
3 - "Sabipa" (T37A) in 3h19m55.0s
4 – Foc (T37A) in 3h24m03.2s
5 - G. Bouriat (T35) in 3h42m05.0s
6 – Tétaldi (T37A) in 3h55m50.2s
all completed 25 laps
? – A total of 15 cars was entered at this handicap race.



Bugatti Grand Prix 1930
Zanelli won at Le Mans for the second year in a row.

June 1, 1930 The third Grand Prix Bugatti in 1930 was also the last. The Molsheim Factory as the organizer allowed only Bugatti racing cars of three classes: 1500, 2000, and 2300 ccm, with or without supercharger. The event was directed by the well known French journalist, Charles Faroux, who had also managed the Monaco Grand Prix. The race took place again at the Le Mans circuit as it had the previous two years. It had to be lapped 32 times, bringing the total distance to 523.53 km.

From 13 entries only eight showed up at the start of this handicap race. Heavy rainfalls persisted during the contest and at the end of the race just three cars were in the running. The majority of the competitors retired and there were no accidents. Juan Zanelli, the Chilean living in Spain, again finished first as he had the year before. Zanelli drove a 2-liter Type 35 without supercharger. He completed the 30 laps in 3h47m21.8s and won a new 2.3-liter T35B Bugatti with supercharger. Second came Max Fourny with a T37A 1.5-liter. Mme. Hellé Nice in a Type 35 without supercharger was flagged off.

A few days before the race Ettore Bugatti broke his collar bone when he fell from his horse. Therefore, only his eldest son, Jean, was present at the race. He was on crutches after having broken an ankle.

Results:
Circuit de la Sarthe, Le Mans: 30 x 10.166 mi (16.360 km) = 304.983 mi (490.800 km)
1 - J. Zanbelli (Bugatti T35) 30 laps in 3h47m21.80s
2 - M. Fourny (Bugatti T37A) in 3h50m56.00s
3 - Mme. Hellé Nice (Bugatti T35) flagged off
DNF - A. Dubonnet (Bugatti T37)
DNF - Tédaldi (Bugatti T37A)
DNF - "Sabipa" (Bugatti T35)
DNF - Count G. d'Arnoux (Bugatti T35)
DNF - G.Bouriano (Bugatti T35B)
? – A total of 13 cars was entered at this handicap race.
Winner's average speed: 3h47m21.8s = 80.131 mph (128.952 km/h)
Fastest lap: not available
Weather: heavy rain
© 1/96 HCLE

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon

...a database has many advantages over a spreadsheet in that you can do queries that will allow you to represent (slices of) data in an infinite number of ways. The result of our work would not just be "a list" with separate columns that you can sort individually, it should also be able to reproduce an individual entry list, starting grid, result, anything, in a way that we are used to.

Can you teach me how to do this?

Perhaps provide an example?

I suspect I am beginning to outgrow my spreadsheet.

Having perused a number of books on how to use Access I am not really much wiser. They describe things in terms far more basic than I am looking for.

An example of how to apply it to the problem we are discussing here would be greatly appreciated.

It could also go a long way towards getting all the "right" people onto the same system, so information is easily exchanged.

For example, I know that Michael Ferner (Fines) is compiling volumes of information on spreadsheets. If there is a better way, he should be redirected before it becomes too big a job to change it.

The same would apply to Rob Ryder - and who knows how many others?

How is Hans compiling his information?

Isn't this an even more important factor at this point - how to compile the information - than what information should be compiled?

I know this has been discussed previously, but I don't remember any conclusion, nor - more importantly - any "how to" instructions.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
..... How is Hans compiling his information?

I work with MS Excel for around 10 years. When I was rich and could afford spending money on Mac equipment, I worked with the data base Filemaker Pro. While still with Mac, I made three designs for a interelated data base and the third one seemed to function pretty good but then I ran into trouble when looking for a programmer to write a code in Appletalk. I also had the option to learn myself Appletalk and that is when I decided that it might be easier to design on more difficult software like MS Access, which works with Visual Basic 6 or VBA. Since I will probably not tackle this project in the foreseeable future, I thought there might be more programmers around to design an interrelated MS Access database than doing the same for Mac/Apple. I am still happy with my Excel and since I am now working on a website of my own, there will be no time for related data base. This is something for the young sharp people.

[Racer.Demon]

Barry, Hans: I'm no technical expert at all (maybe Allen could shed some light on this) but I know the functional requirements of the database we are discussing.

First, there is nothing against using Excel as a local tool on your PC. I'm sure that it's no problem at all to export Excel and Access data to web databases such as ASP (Allen will confirm this, no doubt). I'm only warning against using PC-based tools as a means to store the end result of our work and make it available to others.

Second, I don't own any Forix stock (if there was any!) but I know the vast amount of work that has gone into it - so in my viewpoint it's only sensible to use what's at hand and get going. Forix is based on ASP web database technology, so is storing its data in a structured way, yet it also presents the opportunity to show all sorts of cross-related data in any HTML way you want, i.e. an entry list that actually looks like one, instead of a selection of database/spreadsheet rows. Allen's OldRacingCars.com is built up exactly the same way. He could tell you all about how it works.

I know there are people that don't like Forix because (they say) it doesn't allow them to see all the data they want on the same screen, whereas in fact it does offer that possibility, but they just don't know. That's because they only go by the standard pre-created pages, such as the entry lists, starting grids, year-by-year driver results, etc. But it's actually not that hard to create your own query and thus extract precisely the collection of data you are looking for.

Follow this link to go to the current Forix non-championship site: http://www.forix.com...asp?z=0&k=0&l=0. Currently it only features wins, poles and fastest laps and some other event data, but it could easily be stretched to include full entry lists, practice and qualifying times, race results, driver profiles, and all other interesting data, such as photographs, race posters, track maps, etc. With Excel or Access it's impossible to include images, movies or longer stories, such as driver profiles, race reports or event histories, in a structured way. (I'm sure Felix and JP won't mind saying that we shouldn't pay too much attention to what events are actually included on this site right now. All the important events are there, of course, but it hasn't been updated since Hans started his work on his pre-war winners list.)

And I don't think there is much risk of Michael, Rob, etc. storing their data in the "wrong" way. Forix (and I suspect ORC.com as well) is saving its data in the smallest possible items (every bit of information in a separate record) so if all our current efforts are structured in the same way, there is not much that can go wrong in that sense.

[Racer.Demon]

And then... silence. I haven't scared the lot of you off, have I?

[Barry Lake]

Yes.

[Barry Lake]

Mr Demon

You have put up a good argument for what Forix is doing, but how about explaining, one step at a time, how we can do what you suggest - ie pull up the Forix data in any form we wish.

And how about a step by step explanation of how the data on their site is structured? And, assuming they back up to recover from some sort of crash or hack attack, how do they do that?

I think there is some serious teaching required here.

Also, could you, or someone, tell those of us addicted to Excel, how we can better store and retrieve our own data in Access. That includes transferring the existing Excel data to Access?

And is there a way to do this such that the information can easily be transferred to/from the web-based system used by Forix?

[kabouter]

Of course I can't tell how Forix works exactly, but the database for my website was designed with the thought in mind that it should be able to give the same pages as Forix. Because I don't have money for fancy Microsoft webservers, the database is a simple, free MySQL database. I guess Forix uses something more sophisticated, but for me this works.

On my own pc I store everything in Excel, I also enter new data in the Excel sheets. The Excel file consists of a lot of tables, the most important ones are the Results table and the Driver table. The Driver table is a list of all the drivers, with a separate field for first name, last name, nationality and other personal data, and the personal DriverID. In the Results table only the DriverID is mentioned to designate the driver and the codriver (it's a rally database). To convert the files to the database format I only have to save the Excel sheet as a text file and use the Load from file option of MySQL. Then all Excel data is stored inthe database tables, and with queries on the database you can get the info in whatever form you want.

The user doesn't see anything of this, he just sees the ready-made webpages, that include standard queries, so you can see a well-presented result or driver history.

Hmmm, now I read through this again, I'm not sure if it's very clear for people who don't know anything about databases, or that it adds anything for people who already understand the basics. Well, at least I tried ;)

[Wolf]

So, here I go again... (Yes, I'm rolling my eyes, just as much as most of you.) But since my limited facilities prevent me from being of use in research department, I hope to be of assistence in 'number-crunching'.

Say we all agree what constitutes minimum and maximum relevant amount of data for a race... Many of you might disagree on my previously proposed system of indexing (which would allow files to be considerably smaller and 'uniform', but still with pssibility of customizing display of that data), but the data themselves shouldn't be to hard to standardize... Now, all one has to do is to create, as I've proposed earlier, a small applicaiton (perchance even in Java, that could operate within browser so no diff between PC and Mac users) allowing entry and appending of data. In most cases, everyone could go about their business of creating race files (or profiles) independant of all other researchers and 'number-crunchers' (the ones standardizing 'common-knowledge' results like WDC rounds &c), unless the need of new database entries has arisen*. So, if two researchers have (unwittingly) made a file on the same race, their work would be automaticly compared (if the existing data checked) and in case of more data in one file or discrepancies, both would be notified so to be able to discuss matter and find a common ground...

And this indexing system could also help in various other areas as well (say, photo collections &c). But what I propose are 'clever' databases that will adopt to every possible form of race... BTW, the proposed form of data entry can be seen here: http://members.atlas...olf/creator.htm

* in that case, the one in charge of databse would (upon request and after considering it) allocate a database slot for that entry (be it car, make, driver &c). And newest edition of databse would be accessible to anyone interested (of course, new versions would be only appended, not changed)... BTW, I do feel such database could be made to be truly universal and applicable to almost all forms of racing.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by kabouter
Hmmm, now I read through this again, I'm not sure if it's very clear for people who don't know anything about databases, or that it adds anything for people who already understand the basics. Well, at least I tried ;)

I think you did well here, Tjeerd. Thanks for the explanation.

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Yes.

;)

My apologies...

Originally posted by Barry Lake
You have put up a good argument for what Forix is doing, but how about explaining, one step at a time, how we can do what you suggest - ie pull up the Forix data in any form we wish.

And how about a step by step explanation of how the data on their site is structured? And, assuming they back up to recover from some sort of crash or hack attack, how do they do that?

I think there is some serious teaching required here.

Also, could you, or someone, tell those of us addicted to Excel, how we can better store and retrieve our own data in Access. That includes transferring the existing Excel data to Access?

And is there a way to do this such that the information can easily be transferred to/from the web-based system used by Forix?

Well, Barry, Tjeerd has shown that there is no problem actually sticking with Excel for the time being, that is, as long as we are still discussing work in progress (which it will probably be for quite a while to come!). An Excel file can be shared between a limited group of disciplined people without the danger of multiple versions existing next to one another.

On your first question: most of this (the "presentation layer") is already built-in in Forix. At the moment you can use these tools to start your personal query: http://www.forix.com...asp?z=0&k=0&l=0, or for those who want to dig even further: http://www.forix.com...asp?z=0&k=0&l=0. All of this functionality is already there and needn't bother us in our quest for the Holy Grail of Motorsport Results Etcetera.

Forix has actually been hacked once a long time ago, but AFAIK the data is backed up daily. As for transferring the actual data to the web database, we could always leave that to the Forix wizard himself.

I'll get in touch with Joao Paulo Cunha of Forix on the actual database format.

In the meantime let's concentrate on forming groups, recruiting volunteers, and defining responsibilities...

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I'll get in touch with Joao Paulo Cunha of Forix on the actual database format.

JPC tells me he is pretty much unconcerned about the format we work in - either Excel or Access - and that he has ample tools to import everything into the Forix database. I go along with his advice: "If we place too many restrictions on the type and formatting of data, we can end up discussing those topics instead of working on data quality - and this is the most difficult thing to achieve." Amen...

But, say, has this discussion become part of an even greater scheme, discussed over here? I guess what we are dealing with here, is the main part of Don's Chapter 6...

[Vitesse2]

Indeed Mattijs. These are two complementary, parallel projects. I was going to say exactly the same thing.

[Wolf]

OK, since tere's no need to dillute discussion over there with issues of presenting race results, I thought to start over here... If Don and other Scribes decide to go with HTML format, would this be deemed adequate representation of race results for *major* events (on example, though incomplete and prolly with an odd error, of '67 Belgian GP)?

http://members.atlas...race_sample.htm

P.S. I know that grid table doesn't look good, but I was slapping the file together in a hurry...

[Jimmy Piget]

I'm back from larger than a month-wide holidays ! Nice to read you all again !

If this project of a "GP encyclopedia" does materialize, I'll be glad to send some information on some drivers, mainly french ones, as far as I get it.

By the way, about the amazing reports of North African races (and GP Bugatti), I thinks it's a pity we cannot know the "best time" (in fact, the true winner) before applying the handicap to every driver.
This kind of information is provided in the books on the Australian GP and the "Sun on the grid" South-African races, why not for every other handicap race ?

Incidentally, I can assume that the lady killed at Algiers 1930 was named "baronne d'Elern" (instead of "Erlen" as the journalist of the time has written). There still is, in the outskirts of nice, the Castle "bu baron d'Elern", even if it seems that no direct heir was ever born (the name is not mentionned in the current "Bottin Mondain").

And, by the way, I have always thought that Goffredo ("Freddy") Zehender was an Italian (educated in Belgium) and not a Romanian. Was I wrong ?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
.....I have always thought that Goffredo ("Freddy") Zehender was an Italian (educated in Belgium) and not a Romanian. Was I wrong ?

You are absolutely correct, Jimmy. I checked my driver's list where he is recorded to be born 1901 in Reggio, Calabria (I). I have his death date as January 7, 1958 but don't know where he died.

I will correct the mistake in my old story. Thanks.

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
You are absolutely correct, Jimmy. I checked my driver's list where he is recorded to be born 1901 in Reggio, Calabria (I). I have his death date as January 7, 1958 but don't know where he died.

I will correct the mistake in my old story. Thanks.

I have some sources stating Goffredo Zehender (or Geoffredo, as his first name is spelled as well from time to time), was SWISS.

Now, what's the real correct version. Italian should be right, if he was born in Reggio, but how comes Swiss into the picture?

[Vitesse2]

Zehender's nationality was discussed in this thread about Belgian drivers:

http://www.atlasf1.c...hlight=Zehender

[gerrit stevens]

Is there already someone who has a list (with results) of drivers of the WCD period.

Gerrit Stevens

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Is there already someone who has a list (with results) of drivers of the WCD period.

Gerrit Stevens

There are plenty of books

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by David McKinney

There are plenty of books

I know, I also have a lot of them. I mean does somebody have an index per driver.
But the books gives results by races, not by driver.

Gerrit Stevens

[David McKinney]

As I said, there are plenty of books offering what you want

[Vitesse2]

Steve Small's book is the most obvious, although the last edition is now a few years out of date. As he has always based his table on David Holland's and David Hayhoe's Grand Prix Data Books, perhaps a new edition will emerge soon after GPDB 4, which I recall one of the Davids promising for Autumn 2005.

But of course, if you subscribe to FORIX, Atlas F1 or Autosport you can check any individual driver's record on FORIX.

[D-Type]

Grand Prix Who's Who by Steve Small sounds like what you're after.
It lists every driver to have competed in the WDC with details of every race plus potted biographies, eg Fangio gets a page while Graham Whitehead gets a paragraph.
I recently saw the 3rd edition remaindered recently so I suspect a 4th is on the stocks.

[Kvadrat]

http://www.chicanef1...g/list.pl?who=d

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Steve Small's book is the most obvious, although the last edition is now a few years out of date. As he has always based his table on David Holland's and David Hayhoe's Grand Prix Data Books, perhaps a new edition will emerge soon after GPDB 4, which I recall one of the Davids promising for Autumn 2005.

But of course, if you subscribe to FORIX, Atlas F1 or Autosport you can check any individual driver's record on FORIX.

I forgot to include one little (but important) word in my question which you obviously could not know. I meant to say the pre-WDC period. I know of Peter Higham's encyclopedia but he is far from complete. Has someone a list of results of these drivers.
I am sorry for the confusion I caused.


Gerrit Stevens

[Rob29]

I thought that was what this thread was about? As explained in early posts this would be a vast job on account of the numbers involved. I have spent hours extracting details from available sources on the few (female)drivers I am interested in. Anyway thanks Gerrit,I had not opened this thread before,and have found some data I had not seen before!

[Henk Vasmel]

I had not seen this thread before, but since you ask (well, you did a long time ago), I have to admit, that I have a set of databases that cover this period. Of course the information of the Black Books is in there, and yes it is of course far from complete, as all these records are. The fun thing for me now is to find additional info, and there is a lot hidden out there.
My databases are all in Access, so it is very searchable.
What it doesn't contain is race and lap times. It has all been typed in by hand, and that is just too boring and difficult to even think about it. Results and retirements are of course present, but no reasons for retirement, except crashes. Where possible, DNA's are included. The main thing for me is to identify cars, so the emphasis is on chassis numbers and license plates (see also my website).
Since a lot (too much actually) is coming from the black books, I am not willing to just give it away, but a cooperation with someone who is serious, and has ways to achieve permission to use this data, from the rights holders, is very welcome.

Henk Vasmel

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by gerrit stevens
Has someone a list of results of these drivers.

GRAND PRIX by Trevor Griffiths, publ. 1997, 593pp paperback data book contains all WC races from 1950 to 1997 plus a section with drivers' records. Was a good buy for $20.00 US. Can be picked up now for a few bucks at ABE.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
But of course, if you subscribe to FORIX, Atlas F1 or Autosport you can check any individual driver's record on FORIX.

Who manages Forix and who compiled the data. What years are covered and what races?

[Bjorn Kjer]

.............just curious , what became of all this ???