89 replies to this topic

[calo]

who was john woolfe?
characteristic crash

[Wes]

Just out of curiosity, do you plan to start a separate query thread for every driver killed in an auto race? You might want to take a look at this site.

Sorry, don't have any info on Woolfe.

[Felix Muelas]

calo

I am with Wes. Whilst we make every effort to find answers to the questions that might arise from time to time, the combination of your "telegram" questions with the extremelly high number of them in this afternoon might simply produce the opposite effect to the one that you are looking for.

I have asked you via PM if behind your surprising English hides a Spanish speaker or reader (as I am myself).

If that is the case, I will be able to provide you answers to many of these questions, but if you want a suggestion, stop making questions as if they were "industrial" products.

We love new posters here, we treat them with care, but at the same time we hate thinking of ourselves as an "answering machine". There are very serious people around, calo. Behave.

un abrazo
fm

[Ralliart]

In Randy Leffingwell's Porsche Legends, Vic Elford wrote, "I think Porsche may have made a kind of moral mistake in selling the first 917 to John Woolfe in 1969. Everybody on the team was finding it a monster handful. And put in the hands of someone like that...The first day of (Le Mans) practice he had problems with it. Second day of practice more problems...Rolf Stommelen - the man with more hours than anyone in a 917 - qualified the car. Which gave poor John a good position...(Herbert) linge wanted to do the start, should have done. We all tried to persuade John. But he wanted to...We got round to White House on the first lap. White House...was not an easy corner...He got it sliding through the corner. It just slid and carried on sliding. It was under control; it just carried on sliding until he hit the wall. Then it overturned, spun around and just broke in half."

[Felix Muelas]

Thanks, Ralliart.

Actually "calo " ended up being a Spanish-speaker Forum member, as I suspected, and I directed him to a Spanish-speaking Forum where he got his (several) answers, including a John Woolfe mini-bio.

I'm just clarifying how the above ended, as re-reading my post it sounded a bit nasty, after all!

un abrazo
fm

[mickj]

For more on John Woolfe have a look at Ten Tenths motorsport forum, in historic section, the daughter of John Woolfes mechanic has a nice short bio etc.

[Jager]

Does anyone have a picture of John Woolfe's Porsche 917 ?

As it didn't complete the first lap, pictures of it seem hard to come by. A search of TNF didn't seem to turn up much but I did find this thread so thought it was the most appropriate place to ask my question.

[Hieronymus]

MOTOR SPORT magazine (July 1969) has a nice colour pic of this car. Taken in the pits at LM. If nobody can help, I can scan and email you the photo.

[Phigr7]

You'll find pictures here
http://forums.motorl...=woolfe&page=48

[Bjorn Kjer]

or you could look at :

www.motorsportmemorial.org

or :

www.woolfe.com

or :

www.theaccelerationarchive.co.uk

[Jager]

Thanks for the links and the pictures. I had no idea John Woolfe Racing still existed.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Jager
I had no idea John Woolfe Racing still existed.

For many years they have been involved in drag racing. I took this on Saturday at Santa Pod.
The John Woolfe Racing Cortina Mk.1 bodied dragster.
I picked the best day to go, Sunday and Monday were completely rained off!

[Gerard Gamand]

Just find this fine pic (copyright Le Tahitien) of the John Woolfe Chevron B12 Repco 640 at Le Mans 1968

[LOLE]

According to former Porsche factory driver Kurt Ahrens, Herbert Linge was advised to take the start because of his race experience and the fact that he knew the car so well.
Despite this advise, John Woolfe wanted to take the start because his family came over by plane from England and in case of a mechanical failure or accident with Linge at the wheel, his family won’t be able to see him drive…The rest is history…

[rhegra]

...here some pictures of John Woolfe and his 917:

[Fiorentina 1]

Are the last two pictures from practice or lap 1?

[LOLE]

These are from the first lap Fiorentina 1...

[JB Miltonian]

Just doing some reading on the 1969 Le Mans race, and John Woolfe's accident, I came across this in Sports Car Graphic:

"It seems that either a complete door or a piece of the door of Woolfe's 917 had blown off and hit a tail flap, which must have made the car even less manageable. Amon, running behind him, saw Woolfe get one wheel on the grass coming out of the White House turn, and in a flash the Porsche slewed across the road, hit the bank, and disintegrated."

I don't recall ever reading about this detail of the accident. The pictures from the first lap of the race don't seem to show that a door was ajar. It may have happened all at once: door, tail flap, slide, bank, crash.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Very interesting "news" ! I dont think its appropriate to link "inability" to his accident and death without getting all out in the open! I am aware its no confirmation of "innocence" but at least raises a question as to if it not "just" was a tragic accident of more or less unknown reasons.

[LOLE]

John Woolfe next to his Porsche 917






Chris Amon's Ferrari

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by rhegra
...here some pictures of John Woolfe and his 917:
...

Looking at this picture, Chris Amon (#19) was definitely following John Woolfe during first lap.
He eventually reached Woolfe at the end of the Hunaudieres straight, and was overtaking him at the Maison Blanche zone.

[Fiorentina 1]

Originally posted by rhegra
...here some pictures of John Woolfe and his 917:

The door looks closed in that picture. Maybe he had contact with one of the Porsches. Was anyone else involved in the shunt, or just Amon's Ferrari, who seemed to have gotten a really bad start.

[Nanni Dietrich]

John Woolfe was not at his first experience au Mans, in 1968 he had already raced sharing a 3-litre Chevron B12 - Repco with Digby Martland. The duo suffered head gasket problem during 4th hour of race and retired.
I know anything about this car.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Nanni Dietrich
John Woolfe was not at his first experience au Mans, in 1968 he had already raced sharing a 3-litre Chevron B12 - Repco with Digby Martland. The duo suffered head gasket problem during 4th hour of race and retired.
I know anything about this car.

Mike Treutlein built the B12 for John, at their racing workshop in Eaton Socon near St.Neots in Cambridgeshire.
This became 'Top Gear Motors' after John's death, then in the 1980s an 'ATS' tyre & exhaust centre, now gone and replaced with housing/flats.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson


Mike Treutlein built the B12 for John, at their racing workshop in Eaton Socon near St.Neots in Cambridgeshire.
This became 'Top Gear Motors' after John's death, then in the 1980s an 'ATS' tyre & exhaust centre, now gone and replaced with housing/flats.

A picky point Andrew, and as a former resident like me I'm sure you have all this locked away in your subconscious, but at the time you're referring to, Eaton Socon and St Neots (S'neets in local dialect) were in Huntingdonshire, which from time immemorial had been a county in it's own right, it wasn't absorbed by Cambridgeshire until 1974.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by kayemod


A picky point Andrew, and as a former resident like me I'm sure you have all this locked away in your subconscious, but at the time you're referring to, Eaton Socon and St Neots (S'neets in local dialect) were in Huntingdonshire, which from time immemorial had been a county in it's own right, it wasn't absorbed by Cambridgeshire until 1974.

Correct of course. Mike still lives quite near in Offord D'arcy, where I used to live from 1971-'97. He has his own restoration business on Little Staughton airfield, next to the old Royale factory.

[Sportcars]

Many pics come from "Motorlegend Forum"

I recognize some, cause it's mine from my newspapers recollections ;)

[bdd]

I spoke to Herbert Linge last year, who was woolfes co-driver after the retirement of digby martland, and he told me that the engine of Woolfe's 917-005 wasn't running fine at all the training sessions. They had bad misfires and the engine was running on 11 cylinders most of the time. The Porsche mechanics were able to fix the problem right before the race, but none of the drivers had the chance to drive the car before the race.

Mr. Linge said that he believes the Woolfe lost the control because he never drove the car with full power and so he was way to fast when he passed white house.

[drjothoma]

The door looks closed in that picture. Maybe he had contact with one of the Porsches. Was anyone else involved in the shunt, or just Amon's Ferrari, who seemed to have gotten a really bad start.

Dear Sir
I read that You know anything about the Chevron B12. I would be interested in that. Can You write what You know about the car. here is my e-mail address:

drjothoma@web.de

Best regards drjothoma

[Giraffe]

Dear Sir
I read that You know anything about the Chevron B12. I would be interested in that. Can You write what You know about the car. here is my e-mail address:

drjothoma@web.de

Best regards drjothoma

The Chevron B12 has been found in a barn in Germany, and is currently being restored.


http://web.chevron.b...aspx?appid=3146

[simongould]

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone but John Woolfe was my mother's 1st cousin. John's father and my grandmother were brother & sister.

John's sister Lizzy is still alive and well in London.

Edited by simongould, 23 July 2009 - 06:41.

[Charles Helps]

Thank you very much, Simon. Should you come across any motor racing pictures in the family archives we'd love to see them...

I was reading the piece in Le Maine Libre in the last jpeg in Lole's post #20 which lists John Woolfe's previous racing experience. I have one of Ted Walker's Ferret photos of John Woolfe in a Lotus Mk 6 at Goodwood in 1958 so he had over ten years competition behind him.

[ReWind]

If I do understand THIS correctly a book about John Woolfe is in the making.

[500MACHIII]

HI !

I was thinking about Vic Elford's words "....there was a kind of moral mistake by Porsche in selling such a monster to Mr.Woolfe.Porsche pro drivers themselves were quite worried
about its handling and raw performance..."
Well this definately would be a gentlemen's behaviour.....But Porsche had to regain partly the massive investment needed for 917 project, and moreover the financial effort to set up 25 units (required back then by FIA fiche about Sport 5.0 cars) in quite a short time.
Honestly I wouldn't blame the factory for selling those cars to anyone who could afford the huge amount of money needed to get one home.

[ensign14]

And Woolfe wasn't quite the incompetent neophyte he was painted as. He had driven sportscars on and off for nearly ten years and had been at Le Mans the year before with a Chevron B12. OK, not the same thing as a 917, but he had driven the big Lolas and Cobras, so he had handled power.

Then again, the story is Digby Martland got out of the 917 after daylight practice and drove home, not daring to try it in the dark. Hence Porsche lending Woolfe the services of Herbert Linge and suggesting Linge take the start.

The interesting thing is that at world championship level there weren't that many 917 entrants until 1971, only Dechent and David Piper other than Woolfe.

[mfd]

The interesting thing is that at world championship level there weren't that many 917 entrants until 1971, only Dechent and David Piper other than Woolfe.

Dechent (or Martini Racing) didn't buy the three ex Salzburg cars until the 1970 season was over. In 1969 there was Woolfe 005 & Piper 010 and in 1970 Neuhaus 007, Soler-Roig 018, Wihuri 021, Ortiz 025 and a certain Steve McQueen 022.

Edited by mfd, 19 August 2009 - 23:39.

[liz kahn]

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone but John Woolfe was my mother's 1st cousin. John's father and my grandmother were brother & sister.

John's sister Lizzy is still alive and well in London.

hello simon this is lizzy alive and well in london fancy finding u how are u all doing? xxxlizzy

[D-Type]

HI !

I was thinking about Vic Elford's words "....there was a kind of moral mistake by Porsche in selling such a monster to Mr.Woolfe.Porsche pro drivers themselves were quite worried
about its handling and raw performance..."
Well this definately would be a gentlemen's behaviour.....But Porsche had to regain partly the massive investment needed for 917 project, and moreover the financial effort to set up 25 units (required back then by FIA fiche about Sport 5.0 cars) in quite a short time.
Honestly I wouldn't blame the factory for selling those cars to anyone who could afford the huge amount of money needed to get one home.

And Woolfe wasn't quite the incompetent neophyte he was painted as. He had driven sportscars on and off for nearly ten years and had been at Le Mans the year before with a Chevron B12. OK, not the same thing as a 917, but he had driven the big Lolas and Cobras, so he had handled power.

Then again, the story is Digby Martland got out of the 917 after daylight practice and drove home, not daring to try it in the dark. Hence Porsche lending Woolfe the services of Herbert Linge and suggesting Linge take the start.

The interesting thing is that at world championship level there weren't that many 917 entrants until 1971, only Dechent and David Piper other than Woolfe.

I wonder, were Porsche trying to establish credibility by showing that the 917 was a production car on sale to the public because their 25 cars cars was a bit questionable. And did they select Woolfe as a driver who could handle a car like the 917 and not embarass them? A bit like Ferrari only selling a 250GTO to someone they could trust.

Edited by D-Type, 29 October 2009 - 13:41.

[MCS]

I wonder, were Porsche trying to establish credibility by showing that the 917 was a production car on sale to the public because their 25 cars cars was a bit questionable. And did they select Woolfe as a driver who could handle a car like the 917 and not embarass them? A bit like Ferrari only selling a 250GTO to someone they could trust.

I strongly suspect that Woolfe chose the 917, rather than Porsche choosing Woolfe, but it's an interesting question. I wonder.

[Giraffe]

I strongly suspect that Woolfe chose the 917, rather than Porsche choosing Woolfe, but it's an interesting question. I wonder.

Well he could afford it, and don't forget he had the experience he had gained in his team's Lola T70 Mk3 & 3B's so his pedigree was certainly enough to qualify him to have a go in one. Someone should ask Digby Martland for his thoughts on it?

[Stephen W]

I wonder, were Porsche trying to establish credibility by showing that the 917 was a production car on sale to the public because their 25 cars cars was a bit questionable.

Unlike Ferrari the 25 Porsche 917 cars were lined up for the FIA inspectors whereas Ferrari just had a collection of bits!

[mfd]

Unlike Ferrari the 25 Porsche 917 cars were lined up for the FIA inspectors whereas Ferrari just had a collection of bits!

I believe Porsche first tried to show them 25 assorted parts, but were told by the CSI/FIA inspectors they had to have complete cars, so the inspection was put back to a later date.

[David Force]

...here some pictures of John Woolfe and his 917:

Quite by coincidence and for reasons which escape me I was chatting to Sir Malcolm Guthrie yesterday and the subject of this tragic accident came up. Sir Malcolm was sharing the GT40 which Frank Gardner started the race with and was just behind the Porsche and the Amon Ferrari which was also involved.

Digby Martland did indeed decide not to drive the 917 as it spooked him. It seems likely also that poor John Woolfe had very little time in the car during practice. Malcolm suggested that the moveable rear wing flaps on the Porsche may also have had some bearing on the situation if a driver was not used to them.

I should add that the rest is my observation not that of Sir Malcolm but if you look at the first pictures of the Porsche heading through the esses it may be the camera angle but it looks to me as though the rear wing is in a position which would almost provide lift...

The pictures then taken going down from the Dunlop bridge seem to show that the two rear flaps are at differing angles with the left rear on the car providing more downforce than the other.

Chris Amon is quoted in the Motoring News report of the race as feeling the 917 was somewhat erratic during the preceding curves and dropping back due to his concern although he was still unable to avoid running into parts of the Porsche and having quite a serious accident himself.

Putting some of these factors together perhaps there was an aerodynamic problem which contributed to the accident ?

[Arjan de Roos]

..... whereas Ferrari just had a collection of bits!

Nah, nah, nah, Ferrari did have quite some cars ready. But also showed some bare chassis as well, totalling 25.

[simongould]

hello simon this is lizzy alive and well in london fancy finding u how are u all doing? xxxlizzy

Hi Lizzy,

Glad to hear it!

I'm fine thanks, interesting seeing all this about your brother, I'm a little young to remember him well but he was obviously well regarded.

All the best,
Simon

[AMICALEMANS]

As you know, a frenchman wrote a book about John Woolfe.... and there is an interesting topic about this book on autodiva....

Did you know that John Woolfe had some relation with the Burton family ?

http://www.autodiva....;p=85508#p85508

[Philip Whiteman]

David: the flaps on the early model 917 were connected to the rear suspension and were designed to work independently, the idea being that they put downforce on the more lightly loaded rear wheel, countering the effect of centripetal force while cornering. Under straight-line braking, they would move upward together to counter 'dive'.

Edited by Philip Whiteman, 09 December 2009 - 16:07.

[Tuboscocca]

I already mentioned it on FENELONS bookpage:

New Book on John WOOLFE.

Just published in French, a biography on John Woolfe.
Link: http://www.l-oree.org/

It is 25 Euro+ postage

Regards Michael

[mfd]

Link: http://www.l-oree.org/

Have you tried the link?

[AMICALEMANS]

Sometimes the link works..... On Autodiva, we were speaking about Arnold Burton....who obviously paid the 917....