77 replies to this topic

[josh.lintz]

Odd question burning a hole in my brain...

Various road-going Porsches have been raced over the years; the 356, 911, 914, 944, even the 924...several others, too. But has anyone ever raced the Type 928 in one form or another?

[ray b]

the famous BACKWARD RACE!!!!!!!!
cars ran in reverce gear
winner was a GM full size wagon with a flipped rear giving 3 speeds in reverce
928 was second
some drivers were NAMES

[Punisher6]

Yes it has been raced but with poor results, that's why you never see it. I remember seeing one being raced on TV last year I believe it was in the Speed Vision Challenge GT division if I'm not mistaken.

[Carlos Guerra]

Hi there 928 spotters,

Chassis number '8402225' was entered as a group B car, at the 1983 Le Mans 24 hour race.
It was a french private entry and, much to the surprise of many at the time, and much to your surprise... even today..., it ended the race and was nevertheless classified 22nd overall.
Old panzers never die. Keep up spotting strange cars...

Regards

Carlos Guerra
Cascais
Portugal

[Option1]

Originally posted by Punisher6
Yes it has been raced but with poor results, that's why you never see it. I remember seeing one being raced on TV last year I believe it was in the Speed Vision Challenge GT division if I'm not mistaken.

I remembered seeing that as well so a quick Google brought up the following at http://www.speedvisi.../standings.html :

Mark Anderson, Porsche 928 33 $1,700

It looks like it competed (or finished) in four races coming respectively:

• 17 overall (13 in class) at Mosport
• 18 (25) at L1 (not sure what circuit this is - there wasn't a legend explaining)
• 17 (16) at Sears Point
• 18 (17) at LS (as for L1)

The results meaning it finished 22nd overall for the 2001 season.

He also came 46th overall in 2000 and 43rd in 1999.

Some information (or at least pictures of 928s racing) on other races involving Porsche 928's is at http://www.fortuneci...66/racingc9.htm

That's just from a quick search, but I hope it helps

Neil

[josh.lintz]

Thanks for the info, everyone.

And it's good to hear that the 928 made at least one appearance at La Sarthe!

I suppose the 928 was a heavy car to begin with, putting in a V8 probably made it understeer quite a bit. With the 911 (and derivatives) being so proven in battle, there was little need to experiment with a front-engined car that wouldn't handle quite as well. But it's so uniquely styled, I figured someone had to give it a go on the track.

[Frank de Jong]

As far as I know it raced 1983 at Le Mans as well as 1984. NC in 1983, 22nd in 1984. Check www.wspr-racing.com for more details.

[slsmag]

V I S I T

www.928TrackCars.com


There are lots of folks racing their 928s:

Kim Crumb (Porsche Parade M5 class WINNER 2002!)
Marc & Susan Thomas (Women's World Land SPeed Record!)
Mark Anderson (World Speed Challenge Series)
David Lloyd
Don Hanson
Mark Kibort (Driving Al Holbert's World Land Speed Record S4!)
Stan Shaw
Jim Bailey
Randy Faunce
Jean Louis Picouet

just to name a few!


V I S I T

www.928TrackCars.com

[BRG]

I think that the key point is that the factory never AFAIK used the 928 in competition. It has been a privateer entered car and there have been no ex-works cars, or homologated competition parts available.

Porsche developed the 928 as a boulevard cruiser for the US market - a big watercooled V8, conventional (front-engine, RWD) layout, automatic transmission. Of course being a Porsche, it still set high standards of performance, handling and road-holding that were probably lost on most US buyers. For the factory, the essence and spirit of Porsche was aircooled rearmounted flat-6 turbo engines and that was what they wanted to race with. Later on of course, they grew to love the 928 a bit more. once the 924/944 ranges got them used to idea that Porsches didn't have to be 911s. The final lightweight 928s were real beasts. You have to wonder what Porsche could have achieved using the 928 as their competiton basis instead of the 911!

[Mike Argetsinger]

Originally posted by BRG
Of course being a Porsche, it still set high standards of performance, handling and road-holding that were probably lost on most US buyers

Oh yes, of course we are a bunch of dolts over here.

Really this comment is so typical of the euro-centric drift that is becoming pervasive in TNF. Anything that happened in the Americas is characterized as not historically significant or otherwise really not very important. Surely noone over here can do anything in a motor car that doesn't involve turning left.

I actually do have a sense of humor - humour to you in case you are having trouble following this - (I really got a good chuckle out of your comment) but I am taking it and my time and enthusiasm elsewhere. Beat up on the Yanks all you wish - perhaps it helps you get through your day!

[BRG]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
Oh yes, of course we are a bunch of dolts over here.

The point was meant to be that a car built for a market that at the time had a blanket 55mph speed limit, and where the car would largely be used on freeways rather than sinuous mountain roads, did not need the usual Porsche virtues. Yet that did not mean that Porsche compromised on the design. It was not intended to be Yank-bashing. :

[slsmag]

Originally posted by BRG
...there have been no ex-works cars, or homologated competition parts available.

Maybe not in the UK, but here in the US there are THREE (!) performance shops that dedicated to competition set-ups/stroker engines/Supercharging sharks.

Porsche developed the 928 as a boulevard cruiser for the US market - a big watercooled V8, conventional (front-engine, RWD) layout, automatic transmission.

??? 50% of all 928s from 1978 - 1995 were shipped to contries other than the US. The 928 was developed and designed for the AUTOBAHN.

The final lightweight 928s were real beasts.

Huh? What do you mean? The earlier sharks were LIGHTER and had less HP and torque... each progressive year added weight and power, with the very last 1995 GTS boasting a 5.4L engine (as compared to the original.

You have to wonder what Porsche could have achieved using the 928 as their competiton basis instead of the 911!

Now that's about the ONLY thing you said that I could possibly agree with!

[da Silva]

Interesting thread

My first performance car was an -82 928S and it was an impressive car!
I joined the Porsche club of Sweden and drove at many track days with it.
It was really fast and good handling on every type of track.
The best thing about the handling is that it´s the most friendly car I´ve ever
driven on the limit. At Knutstorp, at twisty hilly track there´s a fast lefthander over an crest
and it´s famous for wrecking cars there. Over that corner I could go into that corner too fast and
lift without any breath taking movements. No other car that I´ve driven on that track could do the same. With an 911, don´t eevn think about doing the same...

There is one 928 which is quite unique and it´s not so well known.
It´s called the 928 ClubSport and was made in -88 before the GT came.
It´s a tweeked version with different cams and 750rpms higher redline, much stiffer chassis
and lightend overall. The engine output is claimed to be the same as the 928S4 but certantly it´s more powerfull and with completly different caracter, more responsive and more peeky.

Don´t know of any racing 928´s but why didn´t Porsche fight with the TWR XJS in the touringcar series? Must have been an better car to start with than the Jaguar.

If any one have more info about the 928 ClubSport, feel free to share that
thanx

[rdrcr]

Originally posted by BRG
...Porsche developed the 928 as a boulevard cruiser for the US market - a big watercooled V8, conventional (front-engine, RWD) layout, automatic transmission. Of course being a Porsche, it still set high standards of performance, handling and road-holding that were probably lost on most US buyers...

really?

As a past 928 owner, I'm glad I'm not like "most Americans". You'll have to forgive Mike's sensitivities, and mine, as there has been a rash of "yank bashing" going on around here...

My '86 928S was perfect for high speed freeway cursing and grand touring with all the luxury amenities. It was the first year for the twin-cam V8 and it ran quite strong. In fact, I achieved the highest speed ever in a street car at 165 mph with, I felt, a bit more in reserve...

I wonder if Porsche had the German market in mind as well, with the autobahn offering the ideal arena for a high performance personal luxo-GT car. BTW, the 928 had a near perfect 49 / 51 weight distribution with the transmission in the rear and not all cars were delivered with an auto, some had a very slick 5 speed.

As far as racing goes... I don't think Porsche ever intended the car to be raced. Even though it's awesome power plant and drive train set up could have yielded some impressive results. Alas, the car was just too heavy to be truly competitive.

slsmag's link offers some good examples of the efforts of many who are campaigning their 928's, And, with some degree of success I might add....

[Option1]

Originally posted by BRG
...

Porsche developed the 928 as a boulevard cruiser for the US market - a big watercooled V8, conventional (front-engine, RWD) layout, automatic transmission. ...

It's not entirely conventional. IIRC the gearbox/transaxle at the rear together with the battery also being at the rear gave the car an almost 50/50 weight distribution.

I think people possibly dismiss the 928 a bit too lightly. There's some thought that Porsche was originally trying to develop the 928 to REPLACE the 911, but were unable to overcome the latter's cult/fashion status and the huge investment so many already had in performance parts and other aspects.

Neil

[SpecialKS]

Hi all,

there were two 928 racing at Nürburgring Langstreckenmeisterschaft (VLN) around 1984, one a semi-workscar driven by Steckkönig/Clausecker which won - I think - several races.
I'm looking for pics for years, but if anybody is interested I can post some private pics of the second car raced at that time.

[Gregor Marshall]

There was also one or towo Porsche 928s racing in the British Production Sport and Saloon championship in the early 1980s and IIRC one won the Willhire 24 hours race in '81 or '82

[smarjoram]

I think I spotted one on the entry list for the Silverstone Classic - I keep an eye out for it and see if I can gat a picture.

[Hezza]

Tony Dron used to race an AFN 928 in one of the Porsche club series back in the late '80s. He was also part of the quartet that triumphed in the 1983 Willhire 24 Hours aboard a 928S (along with Phil Dowsett, Andy Rouse and Win Percy).

Regards,

Richard

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Hezza
Tony Dron used to race an AFN 928 in one of the Porsche club series back in the late '80s. He was also part of the quartet that triumphed in the 1983 Willhire 24 Hours aboard a 928S (along with Phil Dowsett, Andy Rouse and Win Percy).

Regards,

Richard

Steve (I forget his surname now) drove one for AFN in the 91 Porsche Supercup in the UK. I believe he had to stop because of diabetes or similar. I think Mark Hales may have raced the car on occasion also. My memory fails me... Jock the championship co-ordinator would know though. It was fairly quick as I recall but did eat Pirellis.

[eukie]

Originally posted by SpecialKS
Hi all,

there were two 928 racing at Nürburgring Langstreckenmeisterschaft (VLN) around 1984, one a semi-workscar driven by Steckkönig/Clausecker which won - I think - several races.
I'm looking for pics for years, but if anybody is interested I can post some private pics of the second car raced at that time.

First race of the Steckkönig/Clausecker-car was the ADAC-ACAS Bilstein Cup, July 23, 1983. Three races into their shortened VLN-season, they scored their first win, the Reinoldusrennen, September 17 , 1983. This is the report from their second win in the following race, October 01, 1983:



Ant they won the next race, too (October 15, 1983) ...

I would very much like to see your private pics of the second car.

[fausto]

One was raced @ Daytona (24Hours) in 1984, Vic Elford and Richard Attwood being among of the drivers

[fbarrett]

Fausto:

Right on.

Porsche built a 928S with an aluminum chassis/body and shipped it to Brumos Racing for the 1984 Daytona 24 Hours (also the 962's first race). Drivers were Richard Attwood and Vic Elford plus Americans Howard Meister and Bob Hagestad. They started 72nd overall, 30th in the GT Class. The 928S ran without a snag, but the 962 quit, so the factory mechanics switched to the 928. Needing nothing except a little engine oil now and then, the 928 finished 15th overall, 4th in GT. Today it’s in the Porsche museum in Stuttgart.

Like Howard Meister, Bob Hagestad was active in the Trans Am series in the 1970s; his Lakewood, Colorado, Porsche dealership (founded by his father, Vern) still exists under different ownership, and Bob now lives in the Dallas area. I was at his shop the day his first new '73 Carrera RS race car was delivered and have photos somewhere...

Frank

[David Birchall]

There are a number of 928s running in the SCCA and in the Canadian equivalent. Given the cost of even good used 928s they make a good candidate for a race car. Engines and other parts can be picked up quite cheaply as opposed to the exorbitant cost of 911 engines!

[Andrew Kitson]

Apart from Tony Dron, Tony Lanfranchi was also very successful in an AFN entered 928 in British Production Sports/Saloon racing in 1983. One of my first paintings was a scene of Tony in the car at Brands, commissioned by AFN at the time.

[ghinzani]

Andrew you should know the guys name I am grasping for then, Steve who worked either for Porsche Cars GB or AFN, and drove AFN cars in the 80s through to the early 90's when they took his licence away because of I think diabetes. Also what was Jock the Championship co-ordinators surname? He works for Porsche Club GB for years, then at RMA with me and then back at the club under John Farren. Big guy, beard, encyclopedic knowledge of all things Zuffhaussen.

[fausto]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Andrew you should know the guys name I am grasping for then, Steve who worked either for Porsche Cars GB or AFN, and drove AFN cars in the 80s through to the early 90's when they took his licence away because of I think diabetes. Also what was Jock the Championship co-ordinators surname? He works for Porsche Club GB for years, then at RMA with me and then back at the club under John Farren. Big guy, beard, encyclopedic knowledge of all things Zuffhaussen.

Steve Kevlin?

I remember one James May as PCGB Championship Coordinator, late '80s...

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by fausto


Steve Kevlin?

I remember one James May as PCGB Championship Coordinator, late '80s...

Thats the fellow! The Championship co-ordinator I am thinking of is Jock Simpson. Hard name to forget but I did. He is a bloke who would like TNF though. Yes I dont remember James in actual fact. There was also that guy who used to run it then set up the rival 924 series when Porsche Club GB found he had been fiddling the books and stealing from them - Nick May I think he was called. Not sure if he was the FA driver of that name also?

[SpecialKS]

Wonderful, how a thread can be revived after almost 6 years of silence!

Btw: great forum here.

@ eukie: yeah that's the car, I meant. I own that article from the magazine "Sport-Fahrer" too.
But unfortunately there are no other pics from that car available. Years ago I contacted a Porsche forum concerning this matter, but there were also no further information available.

The other car was driven by Probst/Mentel during the same period, I think. I'll post my pics this evening when I'm at home.

[Mike Riedner]

Norbert Haug, at that time editor of the German magazine sport auto, raced a red 928 in the 24 hour race at the Nürburgring. I am not sure about the year: 1983, 1984 1985?

[SpecialKS]

Originally posted by Mike Riedner
Norbert Haug, at that time editor of the German magazine sport auto, raced a red 928 in the 24 hour race at the Nürburgring. I am not sure about the year: 1983, 1984 1985?

At the moment I cannot find more information, but it seems to be the car which raced at the 24 h 1985:

http://adac.24h-renn...Hash=111490c2bf
and
http://adac.24h-renn...Hash=e9c077969f

which I assume is the same car I saw at VLN-races in 1983 or 1984 (only in white livery - see three attached private pics) driven by Probst & Mentel (P&M). Unfortunately there are no lists of participants available from that period and the homepage posted seems not to be very well-kept.

And another small article from Sport-Fahrer 11/1983 concerning a second place of the semi-workscar at Barbarossapreis (VLN-Nordschleife) on 20.08.1983.









Always interested in more information, data and pics.

[SpecialKS]

Here some more links about 928's in (historic) motorsports:

http://www.pro-tour....leases/009.html
http://www.928intl.com/race/index.htm
http://www.flickr.co...57601457080518/
http://www.928regist...nce-10-2004.htm

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Originally posted by fausto


Steve Kevlin?

I remember one James May as PCGB Championship Coordinator, late '80s...

Is this the same James May, a.k.a. Captain Slow of current BBC Top Gear TV fame?

Jesper

[d j fox]

A little Web and Time and Two Seats research shows the following 928 appearances in World Sports Car races/IMSA in 1983 and 84—not sure how accurate, or comprehensive it all is as some “info” is contradictory……..

I certainly remember the Boutinaud car at Silverstone ‘84 looking very standard road-going. It seemed to have plenty of grunt in a straight line, but fairly wallowed through the Woodcote chicane

1983 Nurburgring 1000ks 29 May
111: Helge Probst/Knuth Mentel or Wolfgang Walter/Norbert Haug : Entrant Probst & Mentel: 16th 31 laps
102?: Raymond Boutinaud--dna

1983 Le Mans 24 hours 18/19 June
97 : Patrick Gonin /Raymond Boutinaud /Alain Le Page [840225] Entrant Raymond Boutinaud : Not classified
See http://www.racingspo...3-06-19-097.jpg

1984 Daytona 24 Hours 4/5 February
92 :Richard Attwood/Vic Elford/Howard Meister/ Bob Hagestad Ent Porsche Racing : 15th 569laps
See http://www.racingspo...4-02-05-092.jpg

1984 Silverstone 1000ks 13th May
107:Raymond Boutinaud / Philippe Renault/ Gilles Guinand [840225] Ent Raymond Boutinnaud : dnf 100 laps Engine

1984 Le Mans 24 hours 16/17 June
107:Raymond Boutinaud / Philippe Renault/ Gilles Guinand [840225]Ent Raymond Boutinnaud
22nd 256 laps ( -104 behind, last classified runner)
see http://www.racingspo...4-06-17-107.jpg

1984 Nurburgring 1000ks 15th July
115:Helge Probst/Knuth Mentel/Karl-Heinz Gürthler: Ent Probst und Mentel : 28th ,154 laps (-53 laps behind, last classified runner

1984 Brands Hatch 1000k 28th July
107:Raymond Boutinaud /Edgar Dören /Gerard Brucelle [840225] Ent Raymond Boutinaud: dnf -123laps
See http://www.racingspo...4-07-29-107.jpg

1984 Spa 1000k 2nd September
107:Raymond Boutinaud /Patrick Gonin /Gerard Brucelle [840225] Ent Raymond Boutinaud dnq
..at least 6 seconds slower than the next slowest and a mere 52’ slower than Hobbs/Boutsen pole Fitzpatrick956
See http://www.racingspo...4-09-02-107.jpg


David Fox

[eukie]

Originally posted by SpecialKS
which I assume is the same car I saw at VLN-races in 1983 or 1984 (only in white livery - see three attached private pics) driven by Probst & Mentel (P&M). Unfortunately there are no lists of participants available from that period and the homepage posted seems not to be very well-kept.
Always interested in more information, data and pics.

Nice pics, SpecialKS!
In 1984 the P&M-car's best results (AFAIK the only Top10-finishes) in the Langstreckenpokal were:

June 23, 1984 Barbarossapreis
3. Helge Probst / Karl-Heinz Gürthler

September 29, 1984 Reinoldusrennen
7. Knut Mentel / Norbert Haug

and finally an overall-win - with the late Edgar Dören at the wheel:

October 13, 1984 DMW-250-Meilen
1. Edgar Dören / Helge Probst

[SpecialKS]

Thank you for that information.

Do you have any source, where you've got it from?

20 to 25 years ago I owned all info (results etc.), but unfortunately I trashed them some years ago, when I wasn't very intersted in these things.
Now interests have changed ...

[eukie]

Originally posted by SpecialKS
Do you have any source, where you've got it from?

At the moment, only the contemporary race-reports from "Sportfahrer" and "Motorsport aktuell". Next step would be the official ONS Mitteilungen, but I haven't checked the 1980s, yet.

Originally posted by SpecialKS

20 to 25 years ago I owned all info (results etc.), but unfortunately I trashed them some years ago, when I wasn't very intersted in these things.

A mistake many followers of the Langstreckenpokal have made, I fear. I know even someone who has written the reports for "Sportfahrer" for one year - who has thrown away everything (at least this is what he told me). Meanwhile we have privately collected a lot of data for the early years, especially 1976-1979 and on to 1985. But if you or someone else has more of those precious private pictures, I think they would be very welcome here.

[fbarrett]

Friends:

Here's an action pic of the Porsche factory's entry in the 1984 24 Hours of Daytona, described above:

http://www.racingspo...4-02-05-092.jpg

Apparently the car is in a storage area at the Porsche Museum, but perhaps when the new one opens later this year, it might be displayed. Apparently this is the only time that Porsche raced a 928.

Frank

[SpecialKS]

@ eukie: I assume this book is well known to you:



Interesting but no detailed information - as we are looking for.

[SpecialKS]

Found out that a Porsche 928S driven by Probst/Mentel made a top ten finish at 24hrs Nuerburgring 1987
(have an article from Sport-Auto 08/1987).

And here's a pic from the back of a 928 running at 24hrs Nuerburgring 1988:

[SpecialKS]

Here's a pic of 24h Nurburgring 1987 7th place 928S Mentel/Probst/Mueller:

[petestenning]

I may be wrong but did not the Jones twins run a 928 Precispark ? backed yellow car?.

And currently Paul Anderson, Paul Briggs, and Andy Jarvis with the HSCC have been seen this season.

Pete

[Mondiale M85S]

The Mr May in question would probably be Jeff May who set up the original 924 series and was also an MSA Steward too.

[Kevan]

Originally posted by petestenning
I may be wrong but did not the Jones twins run a 928 Precispark ? backed yellow car?.

And currently Paul Anderson, Paul Briggs, and Andy Jarvis with the HSCC have been seen this season.

Pete

A Jones 928 in Preci-Spark colours does ring a vague bell- mid-90s, before they got involved in the British GT series with Mike Jordan-run 911s? While we're on the subject of British GT, Andy Langridge occasionally fielded a 928 there around 1996/7- the car did most of it's racing in Porsche Cup as I recall?

[mwphoto]

Another picture I have of the 924 at Daytona in 1984


Also the Speed World Challenge 928 of Mark Anderson from Mosport 2002

[SpecialKS]

Some other links:

http://www.928performance.com/

http://www.tuningfev...drag-racing.php

http://www.tuningfev...porsche-928.php

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3094262

[SpecialKS]

One another pic:

[examateur racer]

Sorry only just found the topic.

In my 3rd year of motor racing (no karts) starting at the age of 45 I phoned up a dealer in London and purchased a 928, handed it over to Mike Jordan and ran it next year in the Porsche Cup



Here it is at Thruxton not in a Porsche Cup race and fitted with slicks

Unfortunately for me Mike also convinced the Jones twins to also buy one and with their money and engineering backup my 928 was somewhat un-engineered. However it was an easy car to drive, very strong and intimidating!

Due to advances in shock absorbers and brakes the 928 did not appear to have many weaknesses, however I don't know if you realise that the engine was originally two 2.5L 944 engines made into a V, the problem in the race (as the Porsche Cup you are not allowed to modify anything) was that on a hot day the engine would overheat, so cooling was marginal.

Later at Brands Hatch:-





A certain driver who will remain nameless over egged it at the start through paddock and came straight back onto the track at 90 degrees and put me into a 90mph spin into the barriers. The only injury was blood on my face that occurred when I ripped my helmet off to exclaim some profanities!

If its any interest when I got into the ambulance there was Ray Armes looking totally pi**ed off as he had put the works Porsche into the barriers on the green flag lap!

Edited by examateur racer, 23 May 2013 - 13:22.

[stuartbrs]

The 928...
Ive owned mine for nearly 6 years now.. best car Ive ever owned by a long, long way. The biggest cost so far has been replacing the timing belt.. which was routine for the engine anyway. Ultra reliable, ultra comfortable, superb fun, suprisingly economical ( if driven sensibly ), and just so totally gorgeous to look at.
Lots of racing 928`s on youtube now.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Due to advances in shock absorbers and brakes the 928 did not appear to have many weaknesses, however I don't know if you realise that the engine was originally two 2.5L 944 engines made into a V, the problem in the race (as the Porsche Cup you are not allowed to modify anything) was that on a hot day the engine would overheat, so cooling was marginal.

Wasn't it the other way around?
The 944 engine was the V8 cut in half.