37 replies to this topic

[racer69]

Would have to be possibly one of the best drivers in history, especially in his ability to get comfortable with cars quickily, like his victories on the Monte Carlo in 1982, 1983 and 1984 in his first rallies in the Opel Ascona 400 (1982), Lancia Rallye 037 (1983) and the Audi Quattro (1984), each time beating established drivers who were used to the cars. From there of course he went to Trans-Am and GTCC with some success.

On 1984, he had lost the 1983 championship under controversial circumstances, moved to Audi in 1984 to try & get the championship back, won his first rally in the car, beating Blomqvist and Mikkola, and seemed set to challenge for the title, yet from all the information i can find, he only did 3 World Championship rallies in 1984. Why was this, if he had such a good title chance?

Also, what were the circumstances for him sitting out 1981. He won the title with Fiat in 1980, why didn't he stay there, as they ran in 1981, the last year of Groups 1-4. I believe he had signed with Mercedes for some reason (as they hadn't done too flash in 1980) but they pulled out just prior to 1981, did this have something to do with eligibility problems with the Mercs on the 1980 Bandama (Ivory Coast), and why didn't he compete in the 1982 RAC?

Thanks

[Rainer Nyberg]

Don't recall the exact reasons for his 1982 RAC absence, but he was quite frank about his dislike for the RAC Rally, and that could be the reason. He hated the 'secret' nature of the RAC of those days.

Your recollection of the 1981 events seems familiar, I think it was something along those lines.

You mention the 1984 Monte Carlo, that was the most impressive event for me, the event was very snowy and he beat Stig Blomqvist on the snow, despite his limited Audi quattro experience, and that impressed me a lot at the time.

He was and still is a very multitalented driver, I rate him very highly.

[Mark Beckman]

Walter is one of my all time greats.

By the way he won the Monte Carlo rally 4 times, not 3 and the amazing thing is he did it in 4 different cars, FIAT 131 Abarth - Opel Ascona - Lancia 037 - Audi Quattro almost in consecutive years.

IIRC 1981 he was under full contract from Mercedes helping with road car development.

Mikkola, Blomquist and Rohrl were quite wealthy after their Mercedes foray I beleive and they didnt go to Monte Carlo because Rohrl told them flat that there was no way they could win there and even in New Zealand Timo Salonen and George Fury (Australian rally champ) beat them out of 1st and 2nd in their group 2 Nissan 160J cars.

[kabouter]

Röhrl wasn't at the 1982 RAC because Opel sacked him one day before the start...
They weren't happy with the fact that he kept repeating that he really didn't like rallying through the forests without pace notes and they thought this public lack of enthusiasm wasn't very professional. When he didn't show up for a party of sponsor Rothmans, Opel had enough, and as Röhrl was leaving for Lancia anyway, they fired him. Jochi Kleint and Günter Wanger were flown in from Germany as late replacements.

[kabouter]

Originally posted by racer69
On 1984, he had lost the 1983 championship under controversial circumstances, moved to Audi in 1984 to try & get the championship back, won his first rally in the car, beating Blomqvist and Mikkola, and seemed set to challenge for the title, yet from all the information i can find, he only did 3 World Championship rallies in 1984. Why was this, if he had such a good title chance?

Then your information isn't complete, Röhrl competed in 6 events in 1984 (see http://weasel.studen...e&driverid=3171 for his results from 1983 onwards). The new Audi Sport Quattro (the S1) was very unreliable, and Röhrl retired all 4 times he started with it, whereas Blomqvist insisted on still using the older Quattro A2, finishing almost every rally and picking up enough points to win the title. Röhrl did a lot of development work on the Sport Quattro during the year.

[Brun]

Aaaahh. nothing beats the sight (and sound) of Rohrl in a quattro.

If I recall correctly, the sport quattro was quite difficult to drive, since it was so short. And an ugly beast too, by the way

[Henri Greuter]

About Rorhl leaving FIAT in 1981

Deutschmarks!!!!

He got an offer to driver for Mercedes and develop a new car for them, based on the then yet to be introduced C-klass. But that car was to be even smaller and more compact than the C-class was.
Mercedes however canned the project, I think after seeing what the Quattro did in '81 already, realizing that 2WD was no viable option anymore. Which left Walter in the cold but he could buy a lot of wood to burn and find some warmth after all.....

I am not sure if Walter really wanted to win the '83 title with Lancia. From what I remember he was hired for 6 events. Lancia went way over budget that year when the World title for constructors was up for grasps after all (more because of Audi failing then to their own credits by the way. But having said that, When Audi did fail, they were ready to harvest instead so that is to their credit.) I think that if Walter really wanted it, Lancia would have provided a car for him to go for the driver''s title. Perhaps if he had realised in advance that Lancia would be much more competive than expected at forehand, he may have gone for it after all.

When reminding Walter's achievements, don't forget his skills with the Lancia Beta Monte Carlo Turbo! He and Ricardo Patrese were a good combination at the tracks!


And indeed, about nothing that beats seeing and listening to Rohrl in a Quattro S1, the one with the cowcatcher at front and a Gp 5 style rear wing.
Or it must be seeing Henri Toivonen taming the Delta S4 at the '85 RAC or '86 Monte Carlo. That's another sight that defies believing.



Henri Greuter

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by Brun
Aaaahh. nothing beats the sight (and sound) of Rohrl in a quattro.

If I recall correctly, the sport quattro was quite difficult to drive, since it was so short. And an ugly beast too, by the way

The Drivers all said that they didnt want the "Shorty", just more power.

They did like the final version though with the giant wing and all the radiators and ancillories moved to the rear.

They say Walters Pikes Peak car "only" had 650 hp, but apparently that was the estimate for Pikes Peak whereas at sea level it was much greater, anyway I saw an interveiw with Walter about the car and you should have seen him smile (unusually) when he spoke of the acceleration it had !

[Brun]

It's brutal and impressive allright, but I liked the A1 and A2 models more.

In 2000, Audi had Michele Mouton's A2 on display in Ingolstadt during the 20 years of quattro celebration. I couldn't help myself and had to slip behind the steering wheel. God, it was so NARROW in there... still it was quite, errrr, nice to sit on such a holy seat. Or should I say Mouton's throne?

[Vitesse2]

For those who haven't met Brun, it should be pointed out that he's at least half a metre taller and probably quite a bit wider than Michelle Mouton - I'm not surprised he found it tight!

[Brun]

Hehehe

A good friend of mine, who is about my size but has more stomach than I just couldn't get behind the wheel. He tried about four times and gave up...

Anyway, we're seriously off-topic here. To get back on (topic), I still have an autograph of Röhrl somewhere. Want me to scan & post it?

[Barry Lake]

Some time in the 1980s I visited Porsche at Zuffenhausen to do a story on the all-wheel drive Porsche road car (I've been up most of the night and the type number won't come to me). Helmut Bott, head of the project, opened up a small zippered case that contained a set of computer chips, each in a little pocket. On the back of each chip was a small white sticker with a test driver's name on it. Each chip had the computer settings for the front/rear drive ratio of the central differential, giving more or less understeer or oversteer, depending on that driver's preference.
After explaining this, Bott pulled out one particular chip and, holding it up, said, "This is Walter Rohrl's. No one else can drive the car with this chip. Too much oversteer."

Car control extraordinaire.

[Darren Galpin]

Do you mean the 959?

[Mark Beckman]

Or the 911 Allrad ??

[Holger Merten]

Yes Walther was and is a really good driver. When he came to audi the quattro was accepted in the rallye scene and the competitors developed their own “quattros” like Lancia and Peugeot and Ford. Walther came to Audi because of two reasons:

1.) He wanted to drive the quattro: What a story, the best driver and the best car. Unbeatable?

2.) Audi was beaten in 1982 and 1983 by Röhrl and not by Opel or Lancia. So the Bavarian car manufacturer and the Bavarian driver find a way to get closer.

When he won Monte Carlo, learning everything from Blomquist, he felt very good. He wanted to show and proof himself, that he could win with the Quattro. Afterwards he was very engaged in the development of the sport Quattro. Piech (technical dirctor at that time) believed in that short version, but not the Scandinavian drivers, so Röhrl was the only one with that short wheelbase and the 4valve-engine. I think Röhrl was also engaged in the middle engined mystery Rally car, which Audi had in their R&D dept. Now you can see it in the Audi museum.

I don’t think that Röhrl wants to get the title in 1984, all the Audi drivers had their chance: Mouton in 1982 (everybody worked for her, also Mikkola) Mikkola in 1983 (everybody worked for him, also Mouton and Blomquist), and their worked hard for Audi. So Audi said thank you to give them the chance to get the title and 1984 was the year for Blomquist. I think he had that fact in his contract and Röhrl was informed. May Röhrl should get a chance in 1985.


In 1992 I had the chance to drive all the Quattros: on the autobahn the “normal” sport quarto. Never seen by all that porsches, but unbeatable at that time from 0- 100 km in lesss that 5 seconds- that was really funny and noisy. And also both Rally versions, the sport Quattro of Röhrl and the Quattro A2 of Blomquist on normal Roads. With the sport quattro it was like riding a bike if you couldn’t ride a bike.

But the A2 was a serios product going like a rocket from up 3000 rpm to 7500 rpm, than the next gear and once again, and that on normal roads in south Bavaria. You have to imagine: including some stops at the red traffic lights, the engine roaring with 2000 rpm and all the views of the angry fathers looking at that full spoilered and sponsor coloured car!

[Ian McKean]

About 14 years ago I visited Andy Dawson at his workshops in Silverstone. At the time he had a couple of A2's there, actually I think there was a third crashed car as well. He had borrowed one from the works and built a replica, (probably using the crashed car, which he must have bought the crashed car from the works).

Andy had twice run a team in the Chinese rally, one car driven by himself and the other by Mikkola one year and Blomqvist the other year.

Anyway, the interesting thing is that Audi wanted their engine back, so Andy had to buy another engine which he got from Lehmann. And the Lehmann engine, according to Andy, was much better than Audi's engine. In fact, Andy insisted that the Lehmann 10 valve engine was more powerful than the works Sport 20 valve engine.

Andy claimed 0-155 mph in 300 yards!

[Mark Beckman]

Apparently the alloy block was something of a flop structually and required so much strenthening that it ended up heavier than the cast iron block.

Here is a Mp3 of an S1, its quite long and is 1.8 meg in size.

Audi S1 sound track

[Brun]

Well, I guess in those days the 20-valve engines were still in their infancy. They reached their full potential in the Pikes Peak hillclimber. And, of course, in the streetgoing RS2 station wagon. The turbo 10-valves, however, had been around since the late 1970s - first 10V rally quattros already produced 300 bhp and more.

[dmj]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
For those who haven't met Brun, it should be pointed out that he's at least half a metre taller and probably quite a bit wider than Michelle Mouton - I'm not surprised he found it tight!

So about the same height as Rohrl... Maybe width is the difference?

[Holger Merten]

I think the next steps are:

A picture of Michelle Mouton
A picture of Walter Röhrl
AND a picture of Brun

on this thread.

[Mark Beckman]

Walter was F1 standard but alas like me he was just to tall to fit.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Do you mean the 959?

Yes, Darren, that's the one. What a weapon! We were doing something like 265 km/h from memory on the Autobahn, in pouring rain and it felt as safe as a bank (or as a bank used to be).

Women drivers were discussed on another thread some time back and Michelle Mouton came up as one of the best. She finished a London-Sydney Marathon a couple of years or so ago and I had wanted to go to the finish, largely to meet her. Unfortunately I had just come back from overseas and was swamped with all sorts of dramas and didn't make it.

Add that to other near misses like being asked to fly in a light aircraft Sydney-Darwin and return with Douglas Bader - deadlines again, asked for a rain check (he came here every year). He died.
And the time Frank Zamboni (of ice maker fame) invited me to visit him in California after I'd done a "road test" on a Zamboni. His next door neighbour and best friend was Charles Schultz of Peanuts fame and the chance was there to meet him. Had to put that off until "later". Schultz died, too.

So did Margeaux Hemingway after she shouted me that cup of coffee on the Audi stand at the Tokyo Motor Show.

Missed opportunities. On the other hand, there have been a lot of opportunities that haven't got away...

Andy Dawson. There's another name. I'm sure he was the one who made the roo bar for the Safari Rally-spec Peugeot 504 I was assembling for the London to Sydney Rally in 1977. I drove to his workshop to pick it up. He wasn't in Silverstone then, though. I only remember it was somewhere north of London in an industrial area on a road out of the village. While there we went to an old pub opposite for luch, one of those ones you have to duck your head to get through the door.

Michael Ferner wouldn't be able to stand up inside, nor would Brun.

[Brun]

I think the next steps are:

A picture of Michelle Mouton
A picture of Walter Röhrl
AND a picture of Brun

on this thread.

I see myself in the mirror every day, I have seen Röhrl once (he's got more muscle than I have), so I would say we only need a picture of Mouton here

[Holger Merten]

Brun, she is older now. May we look for a picture from 1982, the best year she had, but may you know, that her co-pilot from the 80s, Fabrizia Pons, is back in business with Volkswagen and Jutta Kleinschmidt for Paris Dakar next year. Would be a nice picture: Fabrizia, (okay) Jutta AND Brun?

[Brun]

I have NO problem with that.

[Holger Merten]

With Michelle, Fabrizia or the picture?

[Brun]

All :-)

[Vitesse2]

Michelle looks to be wearing pretty well ....



(She's the one on the right!)

et bonjour Michelle ....

[Barry Lake]

Who is the one on the left?

[dmj]

I admire Michelle as well but I would prefer a good pic of Fabrizia...

[Brun]

I get the feeling that our judgment is clouded by the pictures they showed in the press when we were young too...

And it doesn't help that Pons now drives for Subaru! (sorry Mattijs)

Anyway, I'll better leave my picture out of this thread, ok

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

1.) According to Hot Wax the Mercedes Project was the 190E 2,3 16V Cosworth and they also planed a AWD mid engined version from that car. ( You can find more details on Mercedes sites )

When Mercedes pulled off from the later project Walter moved on ( or better said they allready pulled off while Röhrl signed the contract ). Back then Mercedes had to invest Millons in more interessting things so they stoped the rallying and focused on some track race events with the new 2.3/16V ( Even Senna and Lauda raced with them ;))

2.) Being unemployed Porsche asked him for "assistance" with there new 924 GT/GTS cars.



He even raced the 935 Group 5 on several events and a 924 GTP in Le Mans.

Rumor is that Porsche built the new 954 AWD Rothmanns and the later Group B on the influences from Walter. They even relaunced the 91SC/RS ( 954 RWD ) to full the gap up to the 959 arrival.

The links on Walters rallying where mainly the sponsors especially Rothmans/Martini.

Here is a link to his hompage runed by Mr. Bayer http://www.roehrl-walter.de or http://www.josef-bayer.de/roehrl

Also a good read:

A comparsion from Ludwig vs. Röhrl written by Mr. Norbert ( Nobby ) Haug ;) http://www.motorspor...ehrl-ludwig.htm

A other sidenote is that the dreamteam Röhrl/Geissdörfer made the "sweping car" on the last years ADAC Rallye Deutschland. Röhrl just took a GT3 Street version and his goal was to give the puplic a little show. However the funny thing is he droves sometimes faster then the following cahmapions on there AWD 299,99999 HP cars ;)

Grüsse

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Who is the one on the left?

Antonio da Silva.

Nope - I've never heard of him either, but he would appear to be a big wheel on the Barbados rally scene!

[Holger Merten]

Roland, when Röhrl signed for MB, he signed for 1981 and not for 1984. The 190E 2.3-16 was presented in 1983 in Geneva. Maybe its possible, that MB could use the car in 1983. But after some good years for FIAT, the young Röhrl was looking for the best job for his career. There have been two opportunities: Audi or MB. At that time, he decided right (from a drivers point of view). Afterwards, he had a problem, cause MB hadn't a competitive rally car for the 80s. They didn't realize their rally engagement. And Audi gets really successful.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

Sorry my post was a bit delayed ( as follow up from H. Greuters post ) it was a respond to the topic on the "lost" year after Mercedes pulled the plug from the bathtub.

Walter wouldn´t have signed at Mercedes if they wouldn´t had something competive on hand.

Maybe not ready then but in close future. Röhrl loved to have the opportunity to "form" a car or even create a car. This was also the reason why Schuhmacher moved to Ferrari ( BTW Todt was a driver at the MB rallye team back then ;)).

Just the mentioned read:

After the second Bandama, where Wax'l had already lined up Walter Röhrl to drive in a bigger effort the next year, he was reined in again by the board.
Waxenberger proposed a 2.5-lire, four-valve engine in two versions, with and without turbocharging.
The first would go into a mid-engined car, the other was intended for a four-wheel-drive machine, pre-Audi Quattro: "I guaranteed them a World Championship with those, but marketing got cold feet about selling 100 or 200 of each. When Breitschwert asked which one I wanted, I said: 'Both'. If they couldn't do that, I wouldn't promise a title. The result was neither. "


This was the end of the Waxenberger era at the head of Mercedes competition. He wouldn't touch the 1988 return to big-league saloon racing, because Mercedes wouldn’t do a proper (turbocharged) engine. He'd snuck into a competitor's race saloon at Hockenheim and knew what was needed. In the event, this project fell on its face in the first year: low power.


http://www.m-100.org...axenberger.html


The mercedes 2,3/16 V engine and the car had been on the roads in the 80´s as testmules and sure Röhrl had checked them out and seen enough potential.
For the time inbetween the big SLC 5.0 wasn´t a winner but Röhrl knew he could fight and win even with 2nd class material if the cars survived the pressure.

He proved that with Porsche. The 911 wasn´t real competive but he made the pace. The 924 GTS wasn´t developed for rallying and the engine was hard to handle and meltet away and still he managed good results.´

I guess that Röhrl would have stayed with Porsche but he didn´t had time and he also knew that Porsche will have dibs on him and call if they are ready to be competive in the top league.

Porsche was Group B ready when the Group B was baned.

A other sidenote is when he worked with Porsche he had a deeper contact to Audi and Audi also start recognizing him.
In the 70´s he had been seen as a wild dog who is able to drive worst case cars and still is fast enough but no one was sure if he is able to develop a car and work togehter with engeneers.

The problem in 81 was finding a empty seat in a competive team for the next year without being bound to longterm contracts from a "midfield" team.
Röhrl wantet to be in the top car, or in a team that would build a topcar.

Opel´s Ascona 400 wasn´t a competive car and needed drivers who could compensate that.


Grüsse

[dmj]

Todt was actually a co-driver, of course...

[Holger Merten]

In 1980 Röhrl was in contact with Roland Gumpert, the sport director of the Quattro project. Everything seemed okay, Röhrl just want to talk to MB and than sign the contract with Audi. But MB made him just an offer for 5years with SLC for 1981/82, than 190 E-2.3-16 for 1983/84 and than a midsized-engine project for 1985. For Röhrl this was the better offer, cause of the length of the program. He couldn’t know, if Audi would as long in motorsport and also, if Audi could be successful. So Röhrl signed for MB, Audi was really disappointed, and Gumpert said in a press conference, when they presented Mouton instead of Röhrl the sentence: “It’s better for Audi to race against Röhrl, than with him.” Audi an Piëch changed their opinion in 1983, and were looking to get a contract with Röhrl. But at that time and after that sentence of Gumpert, Röhrl was afraid, that the team wouldn’t welcome him friendly.

[Holger Merten]

Here are some videos. Walter at its best. I think he was the only one who could handel the short quattro in this way. Really well done, and I think for Audi it was the third record after 1985 (Michelle Mouton) and 1986 (Bobby Unser).


The highlight for me. Pikes Peak 1987. With 720 hp as mpg.


http://www.josef-bay...deos/pikes3.mpg

And as streaming real video:

http://www.josef-bay...ideos/pikes.htm