56 replies to this topic

[Almalik_Abdullah]

This is from Atlasf1 news, Villeneuve have said the following:

___________________________________________________________________

"I will need a good season (next year) if I want to get a contract with another team the year after because it is obvious that I will not be wanted here," he admitted to reporters in the Monza paddock.

I don't think it is fair actually. After having worked hard here since the beginning and after having stuck with the team when there were other good opportunities I find it very unfair. But that's life."

_________________________________________________________________________


I dont really understand Mr. Richards dealing, first he claimed to the media and the public that Mr. Villeneuve needs to have his salary reduced for the sake of" THE TEAM". Really? next thing you know they replace the very good Panis with a superhype briton Jenson Button for a supposed 4mil a year. Although this salary is not comparable to what Jacques is earning but this deal beats the BARs preaching of saving cash for dash in other words they need to make a salary cut inturn to put the money to car development. Then the amazing 50mil CART offer came around people here in this forum lambasted Villeneuve and Pollock calling them greedy, which was totally unfair as that there were no comments that came from either Villeneuve or Pollock, which later categorically denied the bullshit rumour. Who is the source in all of this fiasco Mr. Richards the greedy bastard brit, I dont know what is up with this british hoping for the next great hope WDC they should just face the facts that the current brit f1 drivers aint good enough to be a WDC. Button? who what does warrant him to be named or labeled as the future WDC he may be younger than Villeneuve but lacks the talent. How about this fellow "This is my year guy" or better yet "the im getting better every year". Richards is not looking for the best interest of the sport hes looking for his best interest in his business dealings with BAR. All of this **** will be vanquished once JV crushed this brat brit in the name of Jenson Button.

[StickShift]

Richards has been a complete asshole these past months.

[Ghostrider]

Relations between BAR and JV seems to be very strained. Can't be a really optimal situation. I think DR has handled this poorly acutally. Of course JV will be very motivated next year because he have to show other teambosses he's still got it, but surely a strange way of getting people motivated.

[The Sensational]

Good old David Richards.

[aportinga]

I agree that Richards has definately made an ass of himself for sure. But honestly JV belongs in a better team. Paying 20mil a season of the past few in an outfit that is low to mid field doesn't benefit the team nor JV.

What BAR needs is a solid development driver and what JV needs is a drive at Williams or McLaren.



What he doesn't need is Jenson Button beating the pants off him next year. And judging by how Richards appears to handling the situation, I do not think it is a far stretch to assume that JV may have reliability problems next year

[jloehs777]

Please make way Ralf Villeneuve's coming home

[BARnone]

Originally posted by aportinga
And judging by how Richards appears to handling the situation, I do not think it is a far stretch to assume that JV may have reliability problems next year

Agreed. This is a lose-lose situation for Villeneuve right now.

BARnone.

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by BARnone


Agreed. This is a lose-lose situation for Villeneuve right now.

BARnone.

Not really - JV will receive the money that Dave Richards would surely have tried to trick him out of; JV taking a paycut for an extended contract, and then the contract not being honoured after next year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Richards try such tactics. All he is is a fat, balding, ugly version of Tom Walkinshaw.

[Uwe]

Originally posted by aportinga
I agree that Richards has definately made an ass of himself for sure. But honestly JV belongs in a better team. Paying 20mil a season of the past few in an outfit that is low to mid field doesn't benefit the team nor JV.

Fully agree.

What he doesn't need is Jenson Button beating the pants off him next year. And judging by how Richards appears to handling the situation, I do not think it is a far stretch to assume that JV may have reliability problems next year

Do you imply that reliability problems would be 'somehow forced' by DR in order to justify his JV bashing? This is something I am really not ready to believe.

[Scudetto]

Regarding personal character, I see JV as as tough as they come as far as drivers are concerned. He speaks his mind, but typically only on issues he feels passionately about and is rarely one to go on the offense on other individuals unless provoked. So, IMO, JV saying these things openly to press must mean this relationship is far more tense than the public facade suggests.

[BARnone]

On second though - I don't know about "reliability" issues for Villeneuve next year. Doesn't he have certain clauses in his contract regarding the spare car and development parts etc?

BARnone.

[aportinga]

Not really - JV will receive the money that Dave Richards would surely have tried to trick him out of; JV taking a paycut for an extended contract, and then the contract not being honoured after next year.

It's a loss in terms of the record books on driving however. Certainly not on the record books of money - couple that with JV's history (related to money) and his image will be worth **** if he cannot get a decent ride to defend his title, himself and his place in history overall.

[mr.wong]

print and save:

jv will end up at williams. frank loved jv, he loves jpm. having these two guys in one team, allowed to race head-to-head (more or less) for two years is a marketeers dream. like i said, print and save. p.s. bye ralf, hello renault?

[taran]

Is Richards really the devil incarnate?

Let's face it, there is something decidely fraudulent about the way Villeneuve got his huge salary.
Yes, he is a former WDC but he earns more than Hakkinen did, a double WDC and his results have been disappointing since 1999. Had he proved to be another Schumacher, propelling BAR to championship glory, the pay package would have been justified. As it stands, Villeneuve is not worth the money.

Villeneuve's manager, who tries to get the best deal for his driver and takes a 15% cut, dealt with the team manager....In both cases the same person, Craig "can't read a balance sheet" Pollock. Small wonder BAR was screwed out of a lot of money.

Dave Richards (who probably is a real bastard because all F1 team bosses are real bastards to survive in F1) feels this is no longer an acceptable state of affairs. He is therefore trying to remedy the situation as BAR is facing serious budget problems due to BAT limiting the previous unlimited spending spree. The performances of Olivier Panis (salary in 2001 $1.5m, in 2002 $4.0m) have shown that Villeneuve is highly overpaid. Therefore the demand that Villeneuve lower his renumeration so the team can invest in technology.

So far it all makes sense. Villeneuve is then made an substantial offer of 1 year in CART and then a return for 2 years at BAR but (allegedly) refuses because he demands $57m instead of the offered $50m. As the deal floundered, it is in Villeneuve's best interest to deny ever having received such an offer (as refusing it makes him look like a very greedy bastard). So Pollock denies ever having met Richards to discuss this. This is called "credible deniability". In truth, Pollock probably met with Richards' lawyers or bussiness cronies so it might be true that he never met Richards regarding this deal.

As for Button, he earns exactly what Panis earns in 2002 so it makes no difference. Had Villeneuve gone to CART, the team would have saved $16m ($20m+$4m - $8m) on their driver budget. The team also needs new income which might be generated by a British driver as Benson & Hedges are losing market share because they can't promote a British driver. This leaves room for Lucky Strike to expand.

Richards simply believes the team is more important than any single member, even more important than Villeneuve. This is not something Villeneuve likes to hear, especially after hearing he was the most important element in the team for the last 4 years. So now it is a pissing match, who is in charge, Richards or Villeneuve. My money is on Richards.

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by mr.wong
print and save:

jv will end up at williams. frank loved jv, he loves jpm. having these two guys in one team, allowed to race head-to-head (more or less) for two years is a marketeers dream. like i said, print and save. p.s. bye ralf, hello renault?

Sorry but I think your expectations will live up to your name.

It pains me to say so though!

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by taran
Is Richards really the devil incarnate?

Let's face it, there is something decidely fraudulent about the way Villeneuve got his huge salary.
Yes, he is a former WDC but he earns more than Hakkinen did, a double WDC and his results have been disappointing since 1999. Had he proved to be another Schumacher, propelling BAR to championship glory, the pay package would have been justified. As it stands, Villeneuve is not worth the money.

Villeneuve's manager, who tries to get the best deal for his driver and takes a 15% cut, dealt with the team manager....In both cases the same person, Craig "can't read a balance sheet" Pollock. Small wonder BAR was screwed out of a lot of money.

Dave Richards (who probably is a real bastard because all F1 team bosses are real bastards to survive in F1) feels this is no longer an acceptable state of affairs. He is therefore trying to remedy the situation as BAR is facing serious budget problems due to BAT limiting the previous unlimited spending spree. The performances of Olivier Panis (salary in 2001 $1.5m, in 2002 $4.0m) have shown that Villeneuve is highly overpaid. Therefore the demand that Villeneuve lower his renumeration so the team can invest in technology.

So far it all makes sense. Villeneuve is then made an substantial offer of 1 year in CART and then a return for 2 years at BAR but (allegedly) refuses because he demands $57m instead of the offered $50m. As the deal floundered, it is in Villeneuve's best interest to deny ever having received such an offer (as refusing it makes him look like a very greedy bastard). So Pollock denies ever having met Richards to discuss this. This is called "credible deniability". In truth, Pollock probably met with Richards' lawyers or bussiness cronies so it might be true that he never met Richards regarding this deal.

As for Button, he earns exactly what Panis earns in 2002 so it makes no difference. Had Villeneuve gone to CART, the team would have saved $16m ($20m+$4m - $8m) on their driver budget. The team also needs new income which might be generated by a British driver as Benson & Hedges are losing market share because they can't promote a British driver. This leaves room for Lucky Strike to expand.

Richards simply believes the team is more important than any single member, even more important than Villeneuve. This is not something Villeneuve likes to hear, especially after hearing he was the most important element in the team for the last 4 years. So now it is a pissing match, who is in charge, Richards or Villeneuve. My money is on Richards.

Sorry but this post should be discarded.

You've taken every rumour that was later proven wrong and examined it as a truth.

Villeneuve and BAT discussed his contract. Don't forget that CP was bound by the board of directors - I seriously doubt they'd just let him throw the money away if they didn't believe it was for useful means.

It was PROVEN by all parties that there was something sneaky going on with the CART offer (David Richards not passing it on), so don't put words in JV's mouth about what really happened with the CART offer. Jeez.

Where are you getting these figures? As far as I'm concerned, driver salaries are private. That, or you know something that we don't.

Thirdly you act as if Dave Richards is some sort of team player. As far as I'm concerned, when you undermine arguably the most important element in the whole team and make him feel alienated, then you aren't being much of a team player.

Not only that, but David Richards is stuck with Villeneuve whether he likes him or not - if he continues to anger him he'll be left to foot the bill of an even MORE expensive 20 million dollar expense - a driver who doesn't perform.

Also, people think that for some reason, David Richards has the team's best interests at heart, and moreso than Craig Pollock. Craig Pollock was a shareholder (major) and thus the success of the team meant a hell of a lot more than some "percentage" of JV's alleged salary. Everyone thinks that the whole team was a hoax to swindle BAT out of money - people forget that CP put money in himself.

Get over your complex and look at the facts, not the tabloids.

[MaxScelerate]

Originally posted by taran
Let's face it, there is something decidely fraudulent about the way Villeneuve got his huge salary.
Yes, he is a former WDC but he earns more than Hakkinen did, a double WDC and his results have been disappointing since 1999. Had he proved to be another Schumacher, propelling BAR to championship glory, the pay package would have been justified. As it stands, Villeneuve is not worth the money.

Hmm, if I'm not mistaken, Mika also had very nice performance bonus for his wins and podiums. By your logic, should JV have accepted such a contract? Like, your a world champ pal, so just go and make it to the first place. Let's say we give you 50,000,000,000 MegaBucks for a win!! He'd be a greedy bastard not to accept, uh?

Fact is, BritAm Tobacco granted him more money because of the inherent risk of the car being a dog. When JV was extended for three years, in 2000, the car had shown the biggest progress yet and seemed to be heading much higher up the grid. It made sense, then, for BAT to try and get a long term contract.

[DoS]

Originally posted by taran
Is Richards really the devil incarnate?

Let's face it, there is something decidely fraudulent about the way Villeneuve got his huge salary.
Yes, he is a former WDC but he earns more than Hakkinen did, a double WDC and his results have been disappointing since 1999. Had he proved to be another Schumacher, propelling BAR to championship glory, the pay package would have been justified. As it stands, Villeneuve is not worth the money.

Villeneuve's manager, who tries to get the best deal for his driver and takes a 15% cut, dealt with the team manager....In both cases the same person, Craig "can't read a balance sheet" Pollock. Small wonder BAR was screwed out of a lot of money.

Dave Richards (who probably is a real bastard because all F1 team bosses are real bastards to survive in F1) feels this is no longer an acceptable state of affairs. He is therefore trying to remedy the situation as BAR is facing serious budget problems due to BAT limiting the previous unlimited spending spree. The performances of Olivier Panis (salary in 2001 $1.5m, in 2002 $4.0m) have shown that Villeneuve is highly overpaid. Therefore the demand that Villeneuve lower his renumeration so the team can invest in technology.

So far it all makes sense. Villeneuve is then made an substantial offer of 1 year in CART and then a return for 2 years at BAR but (allegedly) refuses because he demands $57m instead of the offered $50m. As the deal floundered, it is in Villeneuve's best interest to deny ever having received such an offer (as refusing it makes him look like a very greedy bastard). So Pollock denies ever having met Richards to discuss this. This is called "credible deniability". In truth, Pollock probably met with Richards' lawyers or bussiness cronies so it might be true that he never met Richards regarding this deal.

As for Button, he earns exactly what Panis earns in 2002 so it makes no difference. Had Villeneuve gone to CART, the team would have saved $16m ($20m+$4m - $8m) on their driver budget. The team also needs new income which might be generated by a British driver as Benson & Hedges are losing market share because they can't promote a British driver. This leaves room for Lucky Strike to expand.

Richards simply believes the team is more important than any single member, even more important than Villeneuve. This is not something Villeneuve likes to hear, especially after hearing he was the most important element in the team for the last 4 years. So now it is a pissing match, who is in charge, Richards or Villeneuve. My money is on Richards.

This issue has been discussed many many times. But obviously u have somehow missed it...
First lets talk about how JV got his money. JV was (and still is) a star; he "sells" much more than any OP or JB. Also, because of BARs miserable performance, he wanted to get out of there and he already had a long term offer from Renault (which was supposed to be really big). So CP had to give him even more money to keep him and he was aware at that stage that BAR was nothing without JV (so was every1 else).
Now, to GET THE FRIGGIN RECORD STRAIGHT AS FAR AS JV VALUE IS CONCERNED: PLZ TRY TO REMEMBER THAT HE FINISHED BEST OF THE REST IN 2000 AND 2001, DRIVING AN INFERIOR CAR (which is an understatement) TO ALL OF HIS COMPETITORS. But i guess many of you have forgotten this...
And even if DR wants JV out of there who the **** gives him the justification to play those RIDICULOUS press-games? All he has managed to do is to make a fool of his old, fat, ugly, bold self.
We have a saying here...the one who laughs last has the best laugh...
I am really looking forward to next season, lets see how well the boy-wonder JB, who happens to be DR sons m8 btw, does against Jax
I am not saying that JV has not made mistakes, he should have left there long ago...it's his own mistake and he knows it pretty well and that's the way he is...he is taking it like a MAN...and as some1 else pointed out, he is as tough as they get
I worry not for him

[Rene]

Lets really examine your post, and see if any of it is true...

Originally posted by taran
Is Richards really the devil incarnate?

Let's face it, there is something decidely fraudulent about the way Villeneuve got his huge salary.
Yes, he is a former WDC but he earns more than Hakkinen did, a double WDC and his results have been disappointing since 1999. Had he proved to be another Schumacher, propelling BAR to championship glory, the pay package would have been justified. As it stands, Villeneuve is not worth the money.

Two big mistakes here...
Mika's salary was heavily loaded with bonuses for wins, points, WDC's and WCC's....he earned at least as much if not more than JV while winning his WDC's (more than a million per win race bonus)...

Secondly you argue that JV is not worth the money....you forget that F1 is a business, and in terms of a business JV has been a great bargin to BAT and BAR...

If there was no JV, Pollock would never have been able to get BAT support for the team...hence no JV, no team....that in an of itself is worth the money....

Why did Honda join BAR? JV has tremendous name recognition in Canada (honda's 5th biggest market) the US (honda's second biggest makret) and in Japan (honda's biggest market)...JV speaks Japanese, he's driven in Japan, and has a very large Japanese fan base....

So far, we have, no team or engine without JV....hmmmm seems worth his coin to me...

Tele-Globe sponsored BAR for 2 years for $20 Million per year...why do you think this Canadian Company got involved with BAR....hmmm...JV perhaps?

Sonax came over from Williams with BAR...

The Italian company Intercond also sponsors BAR...hmmm wonder if the Villeneuve name had anything to do with that one?!

So in the end, we have a team which wouldn't have existed without JV, an Engine they wouldn't have gotten, sponsors, and instant credibility as a team....I would say yes, JV is worth the money....

Originally posted by taran
Villeneuve's manager, who tries to get the best deal for his driver and takes a 15% cut, dealt with the team manager....In both cases the same person, Craig "can't read a balance sheet" Pollock. Small wonder BAR was screwed out of a lot of money.

Again two points....Craig was not JV's manager when the deal was negotiated, the deal was approved by both the BAT board, and the BAR board....and do you really think that CP took advanatage of the nice big caring tobacco company?!?!?!?! PLEASE!

Originally posted by taran
Dave Richards (who probably is a real bastard because all F1 team bosses are real bastards to survive in F1) feels this is no longer an acceptable state of affairs. He is therefore trying to remedy the situation as BAR is facing serious budget problems due to BAT limiting the previous unlimited spending spree. The performances of Olivier Panis (salary in 2001 $1.5m, in 2002 $4.0m) have shown that Villeneuve is highly overpaid. Therefore the demand that Villeneuve lower his renumeration so the team can invest in technology.

Again what a silly point, Richards replaced Panis with a more highly paid driver in the form of Button. That is one of the most highly regarded development drivers, with someone who has literally no racing resume, let alone a development resume to his name....this doesn't make sense on either a budgetary plane, nor a race craft one...except that DR's sons is one of Buttons best mates...

Originally posted by taran
So far it all makes sense. Villeneuve is then made an substantial offer of 1 year in CART and then a return for 2 years at BAR but (allegedly) refuses because he demands $57m instead of the offered $50m. As the deal floundered, it is in Villeneuve's best interest to deny ever having received such an offer (as refusing it makes him look like a very greedy bastard). So Pollock denies ever having met Richards to discuss this. This is called "credible deniability". In truth, Pollock probably met with Richards' lawyers or bussiness cronies so it might be true that he never met Richards regarding this deal.

Utter crap....even Richards has admitted that no offer was ever made...

Originally posted by taran
As for Button, he earns exactly what Panis earns in 2002 so it makes no difference. Had Villeneuve gone to CART, the team would have saved $16m ($20m+$4m - $8m) on their driver budget. The team also needs new income which might be generated by a British driver as Benson & Hedges are losing market share because they can't promote a British driver. This leaves room for Lucky Strike to expand.

Tobacco sales are down in the UK, but up in Asia...Lucky Strike sales have gone up 10% per year since JV joined the team...BAT is making bucket loads of cash, and are very happy with JV's name and image (see the CEO of BAT's year end speech last year)

As for your money arguement, again Richards didn't make an offer, he knew JV was staying with BAR...so your fuzzy math is meaningless...

Originally posted by taran
Richards simply believes the team is more important than any single member, even more important than Villeneuve. This is not something Villeneuve likes to hear, especially after hearing he was the most important element in the team for the last 4 years. So now it is a pissing match, who is in charge, Richards or Villeneuve. My money is on Richards.

Thats why he replaced a top development driver with his sons bnest friend....thats why he publically tries to undermine JV and Pollock...because he cares about the team?!!? All he cares about is creating his own little empire....with no trace of JV or Pollock...

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Relations between BAR and JV seems to be very strained. Can't be a really optimal situation. I think DR has handled this poorly acutally. Of course JV will be very motivated next year because he have to show other teambosses he's still got it, but surely a strange way of getting people motivated.

I think as bad as Richards handled it, it's going to give JV a edge to get a good job done in 2003, Montoya was recently talking about JV not being on it, but come Button, he's going to demolish him, and all that talk, so lets see what happens, important 2003, he has got to beat Button, it's not really a issue, after all the good things and potential some have talked about JV since 97, but Panis gave him a good ride, but who knows, we'll see.

[orange]

I dont think JV development skills are in question at all.

I mean , what did Panis do last year ?
BAR is at a position where its going to be a long-patient journey to suceed.
JV can't help BAR , nor can anyone else.

The sore point between JV/BAR is JV's high salary ...
But is that JV's fault ? He signed a good deal , it isn't correct in part of DR to put these in public light ..


Again , JV isn't doing himself any favors by sticking to high salary and stick to BAR ..
This may very well be last season for JV (I mean 2003)

[FastMex]

DoS: you summed it all spot on!

[The Sensational]

Rene.

I'm not sure about how much influence his son will have had on DR, I would think it's minimal.

DR deserves respect for what he did with Rally - he took the sport forward and deserves all the success he got there, but DR should not have entered Formula 1 in 99 (when he got fired) and he should not have netered F1 this year either. The problem is, this time he won't get fired.

Richards has no reason to increase the value of the team - he has ADMITTED that Prodrive plan to buy into BAR and turn the team into a Prodrive racing team - why would he want to make BAR a WDC contending team if he is not able to buy in yet?

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Almalik_Abdullah


All of this **** will be vanquished once JV crushed this brat brit in the name of Jenson Button.

Mr Abdullah,

would you care to tell us what Jenson Button has done to merit this torrent of intemperate, unmannerly language?

PdeRL

[Booster]

Rene : Again... top notch posting

Since you said it all, I have nothing to add.

[chrisj]

If he's dropped at the end of 2003, then he's down to his last twenty races in Formula One. I'm worried that doesn't give Craig Pollock enough time to build up an IRL team for him.
New career path:
2003 -- F1
2004 -- IRL
2005 -- Tiny leather jumpsuit, Player's sponsored rocket jump over the Saint Lawrence
2006 -- JV and CP selling Lucky's out of the trunk of their Honda in the parking lot of a 7-Eleven

[aportinga]

chrisj - u faking MS lover

[wawawa]

Originally posted by Rene
All he cares about is creating his own little empire....with no trace of JV or Pollock...

Shhh - don't tell BAR's sponsor's this.

:

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by The Sensational
Thirdly you act as if Dave Richards is some sort of team player. As far as I'm concerned, when you undermine arguably the most important element in the whole team and make him feel alienated, then you aren't being much of a team player.

But that's a total misconception. JV IS NOT the most important element in the whole team by any stretch of the imagination. Right now the designers and technical staff are the most important part of the team - JV is a hired hand who goes out and does his best in the car he's given. He can't improve the car which is the BAR problem.

[taran]

Originally posted by The Sensational


Sorry but this post should be discarded.

You've taken every rumour that was later proven wrong and examined it as a truth.

Villeneuve and BAT discussed his contract. Don't forget that CP was bound by the board of directors - I seriously doubt they'd just let him throw the money away if they didn't believe it was for useful means.

It was PROVEN by all parties that there was something sneaky going on with the CART offer (David Richards not passing it on), so don't put words in JV's mouth about what really happened with the CART offer. Jeez.

Where are you getting these figures? As far as I'm concerned, driver salaries are private. That, or you know something that we don't.

Thirdly you act as if Dave Richards is some sort of team player. As far as I'm concerned, when you undermine arguably the most important element in the whole team and make him feel alienated, then you aren't being much of a team player.

Not only that, but David Richards is stuck with Villeneuve whether he likes him or not - if he continues to anger him he'll be left to foot the bill of an even MORE expensive 20 million dollar expense - a driver who doesn't perform.

Also, people think that for some reason, David Richards has the team's best interests at heart, and moreso than Craig Pollock. Craig Pollock was a shareholder (major) and thus the success of the team meant a hell of a lot more than some "percentage" of JV's alleged salary. Everyone thinks that the whole team was a hoax to swindle BAT out of money - people forget that CP put money in himself.

Get over your complex and look at the facts, not the tabloids.

Discarded???? Yeez, you don't have to agree with me but to suggest that posts get discarded....
What are you? The thought police? Get a grip man, this is a forum, to exchange thoughts, ideas or pov's.

As to the BAT board being filled with smart people who knew what they were doing, bollocks. The story as far as is known was that Pollock reigned supreme without any supervision and managed to go $100m over budget! Does that sound as supervision to you?
The reason this happened was because the experienced "racing" people at BAT from Rothmans were replaced by the Lucky Strike brand personell. Only when the original boss from Rothmans questioned in 2000 why BAT was pissing millions away when he delivered multiple championships with Williams for $40m a year was a full scale investigation launched. BAT directors were amazed to find that Pollack was still serving as Villeneuve's manager and actually kept his manager's cut. For 2001 they immediately claimed the right to negotiate themselves. Check some F1 sites, I'm sure you'll finds some idignant bleating from Villeneuve that he "demanded to negotiate with Pollock instead of some BAT bigwig" in early 2001.

As to the board of BAT, they are probably experienced and able managers in selling tobacco. Just as probably they don't know anything about running a race team. Because they were not happy with the way things were going, they sacked Pollock and installed Richards. That much should be clear to everyone.

As to the CART offer, nobody really knows what went on. I certainly don't. But let's look at what was "leaked".
First: Richards says Villeneuve is too expensive and that the money is needed to invest in the techology. Villeneuve can have his $20m or a fast(er) car, not both.
Second: Forsythe & Co. say they would love to have Villeneuve back in CART and are willing to make a serious offer.
Do you really think that offer was never made?

From GrandPrix.com:
Another mystery...
Craig Pollock was wandering around the paddock at Spa telling anyone who cared to listen that he has never had any negotiations with Gerald Forsythe and that the American's recent revelations in Canada newspapers about negotiations with Jacques Villeneuve are pure fabrication. This does not seem very likely as Forsythe does not have the reputation of making things up as he goes along (unlike some other team bosses one could name).

One can only assume that talks were handled by a go-between...

Again from GrandPrix.com
A reality check for Villeneuve

The news revealed by CART team owner Gerald Forsythe that Jacques Villeneuve has turned down a $50m offer from him to race in CART in 2003 and then return to F1 for two more years with BAR is an indication that the top drivers are going to have to pay more attention to the real world. There is a major recession taking place and if the dirvers fail to take note of this, there are going to be some careers broken and some egos dented.

Gone are the days when a driver could demand whatever he wanted from a team. Only one man - Michael Schumacher - has that kind of clout in a world where money is increasingly hard to find. The fact that Forsythe and BAR were willing to offer Jacques $50m is extraordinary in itself, one might even say generous. His current deal for 2003 is worth around $20m but this was agreed in the days before the stock markets took to tumbling and before shareholders began to look more closely at where money was going. Admittedly in times of recession, tobacco companies traditionally do better, but clearly there is a limit to how far they will be pushed - and whether he likes it or not Villeneuve does not have the clout to push them beyond that.

The problem now for Jacques is that he has nothing beyond the end of 2003 and the indications are that he will not be offered another deal by BAR. One never knows in F1 whether an announcement is part of the negotiating process and it is possible that this very public rebuff has been designed to bring him back to the negotiating table with a little more realism. But perhaps the door has been slammed shut.

The big question now is whether or not Villeneuve, who is 30, is an attractive enough package for one of the top teams to take interest in the future. He is a former CART champion and Indianapolis 500 winner and the World Champion of 1997 but since making the decision to join BAR his career has drifted without any major results. His performances when compared to those of Olivier Panis have not really been value for money and his attitude towards promotional work is, at best, unrealistic. This was fine as long as his manager and mentor Craig Pollock was running BAR, but Pollock has been ousted and things have changed. The top teams are all seemingly filled until the end of 2004, and the rest cannot even consider paying the kind of money that Villeneuve is asking. The message is simple: salaries are coming down.

I believe the offer was made, one way or another, and that Villeneuve turned it down. To exert some positive spin on it, his manager then went around disclaiming it. Why??? Because no other team would even start negotiations if they thought that Villeneuve is only available upwards of $20m a year.


Now where do I get my information about driver salaries? Simple, from magazines and websites. They can be wrong off course, but if we were to ignore anything published because it's not officially sanctioned, nobody could ever claim anything about F1.... So unless I decide it is too far out to be feasable, I will accept it as reasonably accurate. Doesn't mean you have to....you can remain blissfully ignorant and pure because Jacques or Olivier didn't tell you how much they earn.

Is Dave Richards a team player? Who knows? But his past record seems to indicate this. He has built very successful longterm relationships with different manufacturers. This does indicate IMO that the man knows how to run a team and maintain important relationships. Just look at the difference with Alain Prost or Tom Walkinshaw who manage to piss off everybody who ever dealt with them.

So Craig Pollock has money invested in BAR? Where did you find this gem? Have you perhaps read the BAR annual statements, in particularly those from 98/99. You will find that Pollock has not invested money in the team. He has invested a lot of hard work and received a share in the team for his efforts. BAT was the provider of (almost) all the funds. I am not saying Pollock defrauded the team. He did pay more money that Villeneuve is worth to retain him, something a more neutral team manager would not have done, at least IMO.

Might I suggest you take your own advice and look at the facts. You might find them iluminating....

[Davebo]

Originally posted by chrisj
If he's dropped at the end of 2003, then he's down to his last twenty races in Formula One. I'm worried that doesn't give Craig Pollock enough time to build up an IRL team for him.
New career path:
2003 -- F1
2004 -- IRL
2005 -- Tiny leather jumpsuit, Player's sponsored rocket jump over the Saint Lawrence
2006 -- JV and CP selling Lucky's out of the trunk of their Honda in the parking lot of a 7-Eleven

Or...

2003 F1
2004 F1
or...
Retires to enjoy his fabulous weath. Has Chris park his car at expensive restaurant...

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by taran


bollocks

Why is that word so satisfying ?

And as well as that satisfying expression, Taran, a very good post.

PdeRL

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by taran


Discarded???? Yeez, you don't have to agree with me but to suggest that posts get discarded....
What are you? The thought police? Get a grip man, this is a forum, to exchange thoughts, ideas or pov's.

As to the BAT board being filled with smart people who knew what they were doing, bollocks. The story as far as is known was that Pollock reigned supreme without any supervision and managed to go $100m over budget! Does that sound as supervision to you?
The reason this happened was because the experienced "racing" people at BAT from Rothmans were replaced by the Lucky Strike brand personell. Only when the original boss from Rothmans questioned in 2000 why BAT was pissing millions away when he delivered multiple championships with Williams for $40m a year was a full scale investigation launched. BAT directors were amazed to find that Pollack was still serving as Villeneuve's manager and actually kept his manager's cut. For 2001 they immediately claimed the right to negotiate themselves. Check some F1 sites, I'm sure you'll finds some idignant bleating from Villeneuve that he "demanded to negotiate with Pollock instead of some BAT bigwig" in early 2001.

As to the board of BAT, they are probably experienced and able managers in selling tobacco. Just as probably they don't know anything about running a race team. Because they were not happy with the way things were going, they sacked Pollock and installed Richards. That much should be clear to everyone.

As to the CART offer, nobody really knows what went on. I certainly don't. But let's look at what was "leaked".
First: Richards says Villeneuve is too expensive and that the money is needed to invest in the techology. Villeneuve can have his $20m or a fast(er) car, not both.
Second: Forsythe & Co. say they would love to have Villeneuve back in CART and are willing to make a serious offer.
Do you really think that offer was never made?

From GrandPrix.com:
Another mystery...
Craig Pollock was wandering around the paddock at Spa telling anyone who cared to listen that he has never had any negotiations with Gerald Forsythe and that the American's recent revelations in Canada newspapers about negotiations with Jacques Villeneuve are pure fabrication. This does not seem very likely as Forsythe does not have the reputation of making things up as he goes along (unlike some other team bosses one could name).

One can only assume that talks were handled by a go-between...

Again from GrandPrix.com
A reality check for Villeneuve

The news revealed by CART team owner Gerald Forsythe that Jacques Villeneuve has turned down a $50m offer from him to race in CART in 2003 and then return to F1 for two more years with BAR is an indication that the top drivers are going to have to pay more attention to the real world. There is a major recession taking place and if the dirvers fail to take note of this, there are going to be some careers broken and some egos dented.

Gone are the days when a driver could demand whatever he wanted from a team. Only one man - Michael Schumacher - has that kind of clout in a world where money is increasingly hard to find. The fact that Forsythe and BAR were willing to offer Jacques $50m is extraordinary in itself, one might even say generous. His current deal for 2003 is worth around $20m but this was agreed in the days before the stock markets took to tumbling and before shareholders began to look more closely at where money was going. Admittedly in times of recession, tobacco companies traditionally do better, but clearly there is a limit to how far they will be pushed - and whether he likes it or not Villeneuve does not have the clout to push them beyond that.

The problem now for Jacques is that he has nothing beyond the end of 2003 and the indications are that he will not be offered another deal by BAR. One never knows in F1 whether an announcement is part of the negotiating process and it is possible that this very public rebuff has been designed to bring him back to the negotiating table with a little more realism. But perhaps the door has been slammed shut.

The big question now is whether or not Villeneuve, who is 30, is an attractive enough package for one of the top teams to take interest in the future. He is a former CART champion and Indianapolis 500 winner and the World Champion of 1997 but since making the decision to join BAR his career has drifted without any major results. His performances when compared to those of Olivier Panis have not really been value for money and his attitude towards promotional work is, at best, unrealistic. This was fine as long as his manager and mentor Craig Pollock was running BAR, but Pollock has been ousted and things have changed. The top teams are all seemingly filled until the end of 2004, and the rest cannot even consider paying the kind of money that Villeneuve is asking. The message is simple: salaries are coming down.

I believe the offer was made, one way or another, and that Villeneuve turned it down. To exert some positive spin on it, his manager then went around disclaiming it. Why??? Because no other team would even start negotiations if they thought that Villeneuve is only available upwards of $20m a year.


Now where do I get my information about driver salaries? Simple, from magazines and websites. They can be wrong off course, but if we were to ignore anything published because it's not officially sanctioned, nobody could ever claim anything about F1.... So unless I decide it is too far out to be feasable, I will accept it as reasonably accurate. Doesn't mean you have to....you can remain blissfully ignorant and pure because Jacques or Olivier didn't tell you how much they earn.

Is Dave Richards a team player? Who knows? But his past record seems to indicate this. He has built very successful longterm relationships with different manufacturers. This does indicate IMO that the man knows how to run a team and maintain important relationships. Just look at the difference with Alain Prost or Tom Walkinshaw who manage to piss off everybody who ever dealt with them.

So Craig Pollock has money invested in BAR? Where did you find this gem? Have you perhaps read the BAR annual statements, in particularly those from 98/99. You will find that Pollock has not invested money in the team. He has invested a lot of hard work and received a share in the team for his efforts. BAT was the provider of (almost) all the funds. I am not saying Pollock defrauded the team. He did pay more money that Villeneuve is worth to retain him, something a more neutral team manager would not have done, at least IMO.

Might I suggest you take your own advice and look at the facts. You might find them iluminating....

Get your head out of the magazines man, they've suckered you into believing every SINGLE thing they write.

You have no understanding of business structures. Don't ever assume that BAR is a team that might be run like an old Williams or McLaren, where 1 person has entire control. It was ultimately a corporation, structured to include many partners that would allegedly input their expertise and make a superteam. Somewhere along the lines this failed.

And please, don't assume you know more than the people involved in these dealings or BAT for that matter. We're talking about a multi-billion dollar firm here, these guys don't mess around, and they know how to handle money.

As for the CART crap, I don't care what some website has to say about it, and for that matter, I'm not really all that interested on the way you perceive it; Villeneuve and his manager putting a "spin" on it. Have your little conspiracy theories if it will help you sleep at night, I choose to trust the people who actually make the deals. The good thing about websites is that their information is only up in pixels - fixing information and posting retractions is easy, they don't have to send out hard copies of their work. It decreases the quality of the final product. I'd say Atlas is probably the only exception to this that I've found to date. As for Grandprix.com, or wherever it is that you got your second article from, good reporting is unbiased reporting - that article is filled with subtle suggestions that the man is certainly not a Villeneuve fan. What pisses me off is when reporters act like they know everything about F1, and everything that happens within the meeting rooms. This could fade away if it weren't for characters like David Richards who continue to, and help in the media's perpetual snooping. Of course, magazines sell Formula 1, and vice versa, they are co-dependant so I really can't criticise.

As for this argument, the real reason I replied is because of your final line:

"Might I suggest you take your own advice and look at the facts. You might find them iluminating.... "

I have looked at the facts, and it's been twice now that I've had to correct you on them. Stop reading grandprix.com, or bangaldeshf1review.gov.bl if that's the next site that will backup your biased opinions on F1 and bringing them to light as reliable sources - if you wish to read them for your pleasure, that's fine, just don't shove them in my face and call them the facts. Let's not make it three times, alright?


Thanks

addendum

By the way, if someone like Rene has the patience to point out the 40 or so factual errors in this posting, please do so. I have no such patience.

[taran]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Originally posted by Rene
[B]Lets really examine your post, and see if any of it is true...



Two big mistakes here...
Mika's salary was heavily loaded with bonuses for wins, points, WDC's and WCC's....he earned at least as much if not more than JV while winning his WDC's (more than a million per win race bonus)...

Secondly you argue that JV is not worth the money....you forget that F1 is a business, and in terms of a business JV has been a great bargin to BAT and BAR... [/QUOTE]
If Villeneuve was on a performance related salary, would we be having this discussion? He would then certainly "worth" every dollar he made. But if his teammate does almost as well for a fraction of his salary.....then questions can legitimately be asked.


[QUOTE]If there was no JV, Pollock would never have been able to get BAT support for the team...hence no JV, no team....that in an of itself is worth the money.... Why did Honda join BAR? JV has tremendous name recognition in Canada (honda's 5th biggest market) the US (honda's second biggest makret) and in Japan (honda's biggest market)...JV speaks Japanese, he's driven in Japan, and has a very large Japanese fan base.... [/QUOTE]
Would BAR have existed without Villeneuve? I don't know. Perhaps. The BAT budget was available, all teams made a pitch for it in 1997, especially Benetton and Prost. If Pollock hadn't won, then they would and they certainly didn't dangle Villeneuve about as their usp.
So we would have had a BAT team. As for the engine, Honda was returning to F1, perhaps with ideas of eventually taking over a team and then rebrand it as the Honda works team. Certainly a team would have accepted Honda's terms, perhaps even this BAT sponsored team. Does Honda really care about Villeneuve? Honda loved Senna. I don't believe they have the same relationship with Villeneuve who is notoriously corporate unfriendly and who won his greatest success with another engine.

[QUOTE]Tele-Globe sponsored BAR for 2 years for $20 Million per year...why do you think this Canadian Company got involved with BAR....hmmm...JV perhaps? [/QUOTE]
Tele-Globe also left while Villeneuve was there so what is your point. Being Canadian certainly wasn't enough, they expected success on a global scale. What they got was BAR.

[QUOTE]So in the end, we have a team which wouldn't have existed without JV, an Engine they wouldn't have gotten, sponsors, and instant credibility as a team....I would say yes, JV is worth the money.... [/QUOTE]
In the end we got a team that might have existed without Villeneuve, that might have gotten the Honda engine, several sponsors that left in disgust and the worst and most expensive joke in F1.
BAR has spent more money than many teams including Williams and absolutely no wins or even an outside chance of victory....Villeneuve has certainly not been worth the extra money because any decent driver could have gotten his results on the track. Off the track, Villeneuve is famous but he isn't a Schumacher.

[QUOTE]Tobacco sales are down in the UK, but up in Asia...Lucky Strike sales have gone up 10% per year since JV joined the team...BAT is making bucket loads of cash, and are very happy with JV's name and image (see the CEO of BAT's year end speech last year) [/QUOTE] Umm, Lucky Strike and Villeneuve "joined" the team at the same time. So how can you compare this to an earlier period without Villeneuve? What this means is that sales have gone up since Lucky Strike has entered F1. If BAR had an Asian driver instead of Villeneuve those sales might have gone up by 20%. How's that for fuzzy math?

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by taran

If Villeneuve was on a performance related salary, would we be having this discussion? He would then certainly "worth" every dollar he made. But if his teammate does almost as well for a fraction of his salary.....then questions can legitimately be asked.



Would BAR have existed without Villeneuve? I don't know. Perhaps. The BAT budget was available, all teams made a pitch for it in 1997, especially Benetton and Prost. If Pollock hadn't won, then they would and they certainly didn't dangle Villeneuve about as their usp.
So we would have had a BAT team. As for the engine, Honda was returning to F1, perhaps with ideas of eventually taking over a team and then rebrand it as the Honda works team. Certainly a team would have accepted Honda's terms, perhaps even this BAT sponsored team. Does Honda really care about Villeneuve? Honda loved Senna. I don't believe they have the same relationship with Villeneuve who is notoriously corporate unfriendly and who won his greatest success with another engine.


Tele-Globe also left while Villeneuve was there so what is your point. Being Canadian certainly wasn't enough, they expected success on a global scale. What they got was BAR.


In the end we got a team that might have existed without Villeneuve, that might have gotten the Honda engine, several sponsors that left in disgust and the worst and most expensive joke in F1.
BAR has spent more money than many teams including Williams and absolutely no wins or even an outside chance of victory....Villeneuve has certainly not been worth the extra money because any decent driver could have gotten his results on the track. Off the track, Villeneuve is famous but he isn't a Schumacher.

Umm, Lucky Strike and Villeneuve "joined" the team at the same time. So how can you compare this to an earlier period without Villeneuve? What this means is that sales have gone up since Lucky Strike has entered F1. If BAR had an Asian driver instead of Villeneuve those sales might have gone up by 20%. How's that for fuzzy math?

What hole did you just crawl out from? Wherever it was, PLEASE GO BACK!

I don't think I've ever met someone with such a twisted outlook on the factual information in F1. Or someone, for that matter, who posts with such ignorant confidence.

[taran]

Originally posted by The Sensational
[B]

You have no understanding of business structures.
And please, don't assume you know more than the people involved in these dealings or BAT for that matter. We're talking about a multi-billion dollar firm here, these guys don't mess around, and they know how to handle money.

Thanks, for a moment I thought I might have to give some consideration to your posts but this certainly cleared up things nicely

So because they have billions they can't make mistakes?


Oh boy, would my professor of Business Economics have a field day with you.....

[Marlowe]

The performances of Olivier Panis (salary in 2001 $1.5m, in 2002 $4.0m) have shown that Villeneuve is highly overpaid. Therefore the demand that Villeneuve lower his renumeration so the team can invest in technology.

So far it all makes sense. Villeneuve is then made an substantial offer of 1 year in CART and then a return for 2 years at BAR but (allegedly) refuses because he demands $57m instead of the offered $50m.

Do you not see the contradiction in this?

[Rene]

Originally posted by taran
First: Richards says Villeneuve is too expensive and that the money is needed to invest in the techology. Villeneuve can have his $20m or a fast(er) car, not both.
Second: Forsythe & Co. say they would love to have Villeneuve back in CART and are willing to make a serious offer.
Do you really think that offer was never made?

You are assuming that the actors involved are behaving rationally...while given the immense ego's involved, and the hatred of Richards towards JV and Pollock, this is not an assumption I would make. The offer was not made...Richards is on the record as saying as much...

Before I deal with the quotes you chose (the dates of the articles in question, highlight that you are trying to make a point by bending facts to make a point, rather than proof)

July 19th Richards says...

British American Racing boss David Richards said on Friday that he would like to keep Canadian Jacques Villeneuve at the team for a long time.

"Obviously I'm not going to discuss the commercial relationship but I would like to keep him on the long term," said Richards today in France. "Jacques and I have had discussions about this and I think he's also quite keen to stay on the long term as well. Clearly that will be an ongoing discussion between the two of us."

Source:http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/8025/.html

Aug 7th, Richards says...

"This is Jacques' call," Richards told Motorsport News. "[But] it could give us the interesting opportunity to have a year concentrating on technical development and then see what we can achieve.

"I would like to see that happen. Player's is a BAT-owned brand in their last year of sponsorship in CART racing, so they would like to have Jacques leading the team.

http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/8250/.html

On Aug 15th Jacques (known for his candor, even those who dispise him admit he is forthright)
From the Thursday press conference (Hungarian GP)

Q: Sorry to give you a hard time on this, but when we ask you about your contract you always say you have a firm contract for next year, but David Richards has made it plain to everybody that he wants a longer term commitment from you and he feels that you're absorbing too much of the team's budget.

JV: I would be open to a longer term if there was any proposition made to think about it, but I have been asked this question for the last six months so I guess the purpose of saying things like that has had an affect because then for six months there has been a lot of hassle about it with no reason. But there is no proposition anywhere so what should I think about? I am just happy to go on with my contract. It's very simple.

Q: You mean to say that David Richards has not actually proposed a longer term contract?

JV: There hasn't been any proposition from anywhere - from the States or from longer terms. So it is easy to put the ball in my camp when actually there is no ball to be played.

Source:http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/8272/.html

So Richards says 2 things....
1)I want JV long term
2)The CART deal sounds good...its up to JV

In fact the truth is, he has discussed neither with JV...

On Tuesday August 27th, news spreads that JV turned down a $50 Million dollar offer...because its not enough money....upon further investigation it turns out that Richards was to make the offer on behlaf of both Forsythe and Players....in fact he told them he had made an offer...

According to "Le Journal de Montreal" (the paper that broke this supposed story) Player's PR officer François Cartier said; "This negociation was done on our behalf via David Richards of BAR. Richards was our intermediate through this negotiation."

The story according to Nick Raman source: DailyF1.com

"All this is false," he[Pollock] said firmly. "We never received an offer, either verbally or in writing. I was very surprised and immediately called Gerry Forsythe and also (BAT Boss) Bob Bixon and they were as surprised as I was. It is clear that Jacques has a concrete contract with BAR for 2003. There were perhaps internal discussions between BAR and British American Tobacco as during the Grand Prix of Montreal, Player’s asked me whether Jacques would be interested in doing a final year in CART. I simply answered that it would be necessary to talk with BAT and BAR because he is under contract with them. ‘That is all."

Finally from Richards himself...

British American Racing boss David Richards said he never made a reported $50 million offer to Jacques Villeneuve, which included racing in CART next season before returning to Formula One with BAR for the 2004 and 2005 seasons.

"The figures quoted were a complete and utter fabrication," Richards said as the team prepared for tomorrow's Belgian Grand Prix.

"The people in North America made an offer to me as to what their contribution would be, but no firm financial offer was made to Jacques because it wasn't worth discussing. It wasn't at the appropriate level that Craig had indicated would be acceptable, so I didn't waste anyone's time."

The "people in North America" were Player's president Bob Bexon, Gerry Forsythe, co-owner of the Player's/Forsythe team, and CART CEO Chris Pook.

http://waymoresports...orts/AutoRacing

Now to what you posted...

Source:


From GrandPrix.com:
Another mystery.... Look at the timing of the story...it was pre-Richards admitting he didn't make an offer....

Again from GrandPrix.com
A reality check for Villeneuve...

Again this story is pre-public knowledge that there was no offer...check the dates, and don't re-hash stories which the principles have publically denied the events....GrandPrix.com is notorious for printing rumours....buy a subsription from Atlas, you can count on their news...

I believe the offer was made, one way or another, and that Villeneuve turned it down.

You may believe an offer was made, but it wasn't....thats what Richards, Villeneuve and Pollock say...

So Craig Pollock has money invested in BAR? Where did you find this gem? Have you perhaps read the BAR annual statements, in particularly those from 98/99. You will find that Pollock has not invested money in the team. He has invested a lot of hard work and received a share in the team for his efforts. BAT was the provider of (almost) all the funds. I am not saying Pollock defrauded the team. He did pay more money that Villeneuve is worth to retain him, something a more neutral team manager would not have done, at least IMO.

Might I suggest you take your own advice and look at the facts. You might find them iluminating....

Actually I have indeed read all of the financials that BAT has put out over the years ,( I can see you are trying to fool your fellow postrers, as BAR does not make public its financials, as they are a privately held company!) as a shareholder in BAT I am very concerned about how they spend my money....if you actually looked at the facts, you would see that when Reynards filed with the FCC that Pollock and Forsythe own a company which owns 35% of BAR, with first rights on Reyanrds shares, as well as first rights on BAT's shares when/if they sell the team....its all on the public record with the FCC...

[Rene]

Lets deal with your original reply...

Originally posted by taran

If Villeneuve was on a performance related salary, would we be having this discussion? He would then certainly "worth" every dollar he made. But if his teammate does almost as well for a fraction of his salary.....then questions can legitimately be asked.

Of course the question can be asked...but I think in terms of modern F1 JV has proven his worth, coupled with taking a massive risk by moving to an unproven team, while his value was so high...

When Richards was asked about JV's value he said

"Jacques is obviously - because of his record and performance - one of the top paid drivers in Formula One. Nobody is disputing his value, nobody is disputing his position in the team," he said.

Source:http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/7712/.html

If Richards will admit JV is worth the money, Im surprised those who despise him won't give him the same benefit of the doubt...

Originally posted by taran
Would BAR have existed without Villeneuve? I don't know. Perhaps. The BAT budget was available, all teams made a pitch for it in 1997, especially Benetton and Prost. If Pollock hadn't won, then they would and they certainly didn't dangle Villeneuve about as their usp.
So we would have had a BAT team. As for the engine, Honda was returning to F1, perhaps with ideas of eventually taking over a team and then rebrand it as the Honda works team. Certainly a team would have accepted Honda's terms, perhaps even this BAT sponsored team. Does Honda really care about Villeneuve? Honda loved Senna. I don't believe they have the same relationship with Villeneuve who is notoriously corporate unfriendly and who won his greatest success with another engine.

Honda cares about Villeneuve, make no mistake about it...he speaks Japanese, and the engineers say he has the samari in him....given his massive following in Japan, and the US, and Canada (look to my previous post) and you will see why Honda value him.

Was the BAT budget really available for anyone? There was a great deal of surprise with Pollock announced the deal, as most in the paddock thought BAT was done with F1...

Given the success of Lucky Strikes sales since BAR was formed, it looks like a great success for BAT...

Originally posted by taran
Tele-Globe also left while Villeneuve was there so what is your point. Being Canadian certainly wasn't enough, they expected success on a global scale. What they got was BAR.

Sigh... ...do you have a clue what you are talking about???? Tele-Globe was bought by BCE, which then had a serious cash crunch, they infact closed Tele-Globes entire marketing team,that is the reason they stopped supporting BAR...

Originally posted by taran
In the end we got a team that might have existed without Villeneuve, that might have gotten the Honda engine, several sponsors that left in disgust and the worst and most expensive joke in F1.

Please enlighten us, the unwashed masses as to which sponsors left BAR in disgust...I think I will be waiting a long time for you to answer this....

Originally posted by taran
BAR has spent more money than many teams including Williams and absolutely no wins or even an outside chance of victory....Villeneuve has certainly not been worth the extra money because any decent driver could have gotten his results on the track. Off the track, Villeneuve is famous but he isn't a Schumacher.

Wow...talk about a re-hash of old rumours...BAR spent a huge amount of money its first year, to build a factory and a windtunnel....these capital cost were immense, of that there is no doubt....but the operating budget of the team is on par with Jordan....check out the filings from Reynard with the FCC where they say the BAR annual budget (2000) was 75 million...

Originally posted by taran
Umm, Lucky Strike and Villeneuve "joined" the team at the same time. So how can you compare this to an earlier period without Villeneuve? What this means is that sales have gone up since Lucky Strike has entered F1. If BAR had an Asian driver instead of Villeneuve those sales might have gone up by 20%. How's that for fuzzy math?

Really...how well have sales of Benson and Hedges gone??? Jordan have an Asian driver....hmmm...perhaps its all of the media attention BAR has had since day 1, all of it due to JV, without him BAR would get the same press as Minardi or Jaguar....even you can admit that the mnedia coverage of BAR is out of preportion to its results...wonder why!?!?!

[Marlowe]

Rene, your patience and effort is simply astonishing.

[flyer72]

I think this is a classic tale. It is quite apparent that David Richards doesn't want to pay Jacques that shitload of money that he gets every year - in fact, I don't think DR wants JV at BAR. However due to the contract in place he can't do anything so he mutters around in the press and tries to make JV unstable and agree to either lower pay or a year off at CART.

DR inherited many problems at BAR but he knew that to begin with. JV, MS, Irvine and some others are great drivers - but is really anyone worth the money that they get? Is MS worth $40 mill a year? I would say no. Ron Dennis says no. Frank Williams is as easy to get more money from as getting water out of a stone. I would rather sign Panis or Fisichella, who I think is much more moderate in pay.

JV is a great driver, he can easily just sit out and get a new contract at a team in 04 - but he can forget about getting much more than $10 mill a year. He isn't bound to do anything - the contract is there and it can't be broken. Dave Richards needs to accept that this is the case. Considering how DR has acted, call me old fashioned, but I think contracts and requests to change them should be discussed through the proper channels, and not the media.

I'm not very impressed by how DR is handling BAR - Willis is the true asset at BAR, and he was signed by Pollock.

[Rene]

Thanks Marlowe

flyer72 I agree with the sentiment of your post...

[The Sensational]

Thanks for having the patience to do that Rene, I would have blown a fuse trying to dissect all of his mythical F1 beliefs.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by taran
Is Richards really the devil incarnate?

Let's face it, there is something decidely fraudulent about the way Villeneuve got his huge salary.
Yes, he is a former WDC but he earns more than Hakkinen did, a double WDC and his results have been disappointing since 1999. Had he proved to be another Schumacher, propelling BAR to championship glory, the pay package would have been justified. As it stands, Villeneuve is not worth the money.

Villeneuve's manager, who tries to get the best deal for his driver and takes a 15% cut, dealt with the team manager....In both cases the same person, Craig "can't read a balance sheet" Pollock. Small wonder BAR was screwed out of a lot of money.

Dave Richards (who probably is a real bastard because all F1 team bosses are real bastards to survive in F1) feels this is no longer an acceptable state of affairs. He is therefore trying to remedy the situation as BAR is facing serious budget problems due to BAT limiting the previous unlimited spending spree. The performances of Olivier Panis (salary in 2001 $1.5m, in 2002 $4.0m) have shown that Villeneuve is highly overpaid. Therefore the demand that Villeneuve lower his renumeration so the team can invest in technology.

So far it all makes sense. Villeneuve is then made an substantial offer of 1 year in CART and then a return for 2 years at BAR but (allegedly) refuses because he demands $57m instead of the offered $50m. As the deal floundered, it is in Villeneuve's best interest to deny ever having received such an offer (as refusing it makes him look like a very greedy bastard). So Pollock denies ever having met Richards to discuss this. This is called "credible deniability". In truth, Pollock probably met with Richards' lawyers or bussiness cronies so it might be true that he never met Richards regarding this deal.

As for Button, he earns exactly what Panis earns in 2002 so it makes no difference. Had Villeneuve gone to CART, the team would have saved $16m ($20m+$4m - $8m) on their driver budget. The team also needs new income which might be generated by a British driver as Benson & Hedges are losing market share because they can't promote a British driver. This leaves room for Lucky Strike to expand.

Richards simply believes the team is more important than any single member, even more important than Villeneuve. This is not something Villeneuve likes to hear, especially after hearing he was the most important element in the team for the last 4 years. So now it is a pissing match, who is in charge, Richards or Villeneuve. My money is on Richards.

I'd also add that JV is NOT going to blow JB away. Quite the opposite, JB might well end JV's career in F1. I expect the two to be fairly evenly matched, but with JB having a higher probability of seriously beating JV than vice versa. (And of course I stand to be corrected by JV and his fans. )

[RJL]

Well one things fer sure: nothing seems to heat up the ol' BB quite like young Jax, even after all this time outside of the spotlight. Amazing, really.

One other thing: JV had better beat Jenson next year, or else his reputation is toast. Eddie Irvine had this interesting tidbit to say about JB in the latest issue of F1 Mag .

"...Button is certainly a great sell for british sponsors. The fuss about his move [to BAR] was unbelievable. I have never known so much hype about someone who has been outqualified by every team-mate- Ralf Schumacher, Fisichella, now Trulli. And to be on a salary of $5 million- as I understand he will be next year- when you've never even been on a podium is amazing."

It should be taken with a grain of salt, to be sure, given Eddie's & Jenson's war of words in the media. But I think EI makes some valid points here. And JV had better beat that British kid and do it soundly. Time will tell us the answer...

Hopefully the damn BARs will be better now that they've finally ditched the dead wood in the design office anyway.

[taran]

Originally posted by Marlowe


Do you not see the contradiction in this?

The contradiction would be there if BAR/Richards would be paying for these 3 years.
In fact, Forsythe, CART and the Players budget would be paying Villeneuve for 2003 and then he would return for 2004 and 2005 and be paid by the BAR budget.

This would enable Richards to invest another $16m in 2004 in the technology/team.
While I wonder what $16m in 1 year can do, the basic deal seems pretty straightforward to me...

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by taran



The contradiction would be there if BAR/Richards would be paying for these 3 years.
In fact, Forsythe, CART and the Players budget would be paying Villeneuve for 2003 and then he would return for 2004 and 2005 and be paid by the BAR budget.

This would enable Richards to invest another $16m in 2004 in the technology/team.
While I wonder what $16m in 1 year can do, the basic deal seems pretty straightforward to me...

David Richards admitted he received a proposal but never passed it forward. What's your point.

[taran]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rene
[B]Lets deal with your original reply...



[QUOTE]Of course the question can be asked...but I think in terms of modern F1 JV has proven his worth, coupled with taking a massive risk by moving to an unproven team, while his value was so high...

When Richards was asked about JV's value he said


Source:http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/7712/.html

If Richards will admit JV is worth the money, Im surprised those who despise him won't give him the same benefit of the doubt...[/QUOTE]
I certainly don't despise Jax, he is one of the most spectacular drivers and almost the only one who could take the fight to M$. But in F1, you're only as good as your last race.....and I think Villeneuve was also expected to do a "Schumacher". In this he has failed.



[QUOTE]Honda cares about Villeneuve, make no mistake about it...he speaks Japanese, and the engineers say he has the samari in him....given his massive following in Japan, and the US, and Canada (look to my previous post) and you will see why Honda value him.[/QUOTE]

Does Honda really? How do you know? Jordan got Honda works engines without Villeneuve driving for them. BAR has Honda engines for 3 years, longer than Villeneuve's contract runs for. So this does not seem like solid proof that the Honda deal is in any way tied up with Villeneuve's presence.

[QUOTE]Was the BAT budget really available for anyone? There was a great deal of surprise with Pollock announced the deal, as most in the paddock thought BAT was done with F1...[/QUOTE]
Is that a fact? Why were all the teams then scurrying about in 1997 trying to get this sponsorship budget. BAT was not done with F1, they wanted to INCREASE their presence with a bespoke BAT team. Williams wasn't in for that so the budget was available. Check some archives or year books. Or even the "dreaded" F1 Magazine......or don't you believe anything that doesn't fit your world view.

[QUOTE]Given the success of Lucky Strikes sales since BAR was formed, it looks like a great success for BAT...[/QUOTE]
Finally, something we can agree on. Sales have improved but is this due to JAX? I defy you to prove this. Lucky Strike was previously active in motor cycle racing and other less popular categories. So their adventure with BAR was their first foray in F1. To assume this is due to Villeneuve is rich. Perhaps another driver would have done as well. Or even better.
Nobody can tell. And because JAX doesn't like to do sponsor work, he certainly didn't contribute very much beyond his driving.

[QUOTE]Sigh... ...do you have a clue what you are talking about???? Tele-Globe was bought by BCE, which then had a serious cash crunch, they infact closed Tele-Globes entire marketing team,that is the reason they stopped supporting BAR... [/QUOTE]
As any ad man can tell you, if times are bad, you should invest more in advertising, not less (although this isn't always followed ;) ) Sure, there might have been cash flow problems. But if the programme was hugely succesful for Tele-Globe, would they have shut it down? And when Tele-Globe left, they were not quoting financial troubles as the reason. They said that the exposure was not equal to the investment.


[QUOTE]Wow...talk about a re-hash of old rumours...BAR spent a huge amount of money its first year, to build a factory and a windtunnel....these capital cost were immense, of that there is no doubt....but the operating budget of the team is on par with Jordan....check out the filings from Reynard with the FCC where they say the BAR annual budget (2000) was 75 million...[/QUOTE]

Yes, BAR spent a huge amount in its first year, perhaps this was to be expected. They also overspent in their second year and in their third year. Once may be an accident, twice seems careless but 3 times is a pattern. Their actual budget might have been $75 million but they easily spent many millions more. Why don't you read these share holders reports regarding the extra funds BAT has been forced to spend or garantuee?


[QUOTE]Really...how well have sales of Benson and Hedges gone??? Jordan have an Asian driver....hmmm...perhaps its all of the media attention BAR has had since day 1, all of it due to JV, without him BAR would get the same press as Minardi or Jaguar....even you can admit that the mnedia coverage of BAR is out of preportion to its results...wonder why!?!?! [/QUOTE]

The sales of Benson & Hedges peaked with the presence of Damon Hill and leveled off during the success with Frenzten. Since then, they have steadily declined. The reason is believed to be because the UK is their main market and a German and an Italian (2000/2001) and an Italian and a Japanese (2002) are not effective. That is why Benson & Hedges were unwilling to stump up the cash in early 2002 and have pressured Eddie J. in signing a British driver, Irvine, Button or anybody of British decent.

BAR certainly has got a lot of attention. I don't think it is fair to compare them with Minardi. Jaguar seems a more natural rival. They certainly have more media attention than their results deserve but is this due to Villeneuve? Firstly, they (allegedly) claimed they were going to challenge the established teams. They failed but got a lot of attention (although mostly of the "What a bunch of losers" category). In 2000, they got the Honda works engine and again attention levels were high because of Honda's stellar reputation. In 2001 they didn't really stand out except for JAX accident in Melbourne and the less said of this unfortunate incident the better. For 2002, they're back in the news with Pollock's sacking and Villeneuve's saga of CART or F1.
Is this more media than Jaguar got with their equally hyped "the Cat is back" in 2000, their Newey drama in 2001 and the Rahal/Lauda night of the long knives and the 2002 end of Jaguar or not stories?

Seems very even to me and nothing directly because of impressive performances by Villeneuve.


But to get back to Almalik_Abdullah's original post, Richards could have held his discussions with Villeneuve/Pollock behind closed doors but in F1, negotiating is done by lying to the press and public to get a better bargaining position. It's not classy but it is the way it works. As to Button, he's relatavily cheap and if he equals Villeneuve's performance, he can be the man the team is built around instead of the more expensive Villeneuve. This role Panis could not have filled because he was reaching the end of his career and BAR want a long term project, hence Button's 4 year deal.

[The Sensational]

Originally posted by taran

I certainly don't despise Jax, he is one of the most spectacular drivers and almost the only one who could take the fight to M$. But in F1, you're only as good as your last race.....and I think Villeneuve was also expected to do a "Schumacher". In this he has failed.

Villeneuve was expected to do a "Schumacher"? What do you mean when you say this - joining an under developed team and making them great? If this is what you are talking about, then it's not a fair comparison - MS joined a team with 50 years of experience and boatloads of cash.

Does Honda really? How do you know? Jordan got Honda works engines without Villeneuve driving for them. BAR has Honda engines for 3 years, longer than Villeneuve's contract runs for. So this does not seem like solid proof that the Honda deal is in any way tied up with Villeneuve's presence.

Got them and lost them. When Honda signed their extension contract, it was under the reign of Pollock, who would surely have kept Villeneuve on. The proof is there.

Is that a fact? Why were all the teams then scurrying about in 1997 trying to get this sponsorship budget. BAT was not done with F1, they wanted to INCREASE their presence with a bespoke BAT team. Williams wasn't in for that so the budget was available. Check some archives or year books. Or even the "dreaded" F1 Magazine......or don't you believe anything that doesn't fit your world view.

As I've said before, don't assume knowledge of what goes on in the boardroom. I don't remember BAT announcing they'd be expanding their budget in F1, but as always, if you can show me a credible source I'll concede.

Finally, something we can agree on. Sales have improved but is this due to JAX? I defy you to prove this. Lucky Strike was previously active in motor cycle racing and other less popular categories. So their adventure with BAR was their first foray in F1. To assume this is due to Villeneuve is rich. Perhaps another driver would have done as well. Or even better.
Nobody can tell. And because JAX doesn't like to do sponsor work, he certainly didn't contribute very much beyond his driving.

You cannot prove this one way or another, but the assumption is clear. Panis may do a bit for BAT in France, but Villeneuve is a big name. When people look back at the early years of BAR, they won't remember Zonta, they won't remember Panis, they'll remember Villeneuve. You claim to be a business student - obviously the contracts that come in are based on JV's salary.

By the way - what the HELL do you know about JV's commitment to sponsorship work. As far as I know, he fulfills his contract.

And anyways, how many drivers do you think enjoy having their picture taken in front of a car, or holding a bottle of beer? Maybe JV just has a better manager.

As any ad man can tell you, if times are bad, you should invest more in advertising, not less (although this isn't always followed ;) ) Sure, there might have been cash flow problems. But if the programme was hugely succesful for Tele-Globe, would they have shut it down? And when Tele-Globe left, they were not quoting financial troubles as the reason. They said that the exposure was not equal to the investment.

Well despite what the "ad man" tells you, an economist, as you claim to be, will tell you that more sales does not always increase profits. In fact, when times are bad it would usually be more profitable to reduce sales - just look at any graph showing the variation of output in a firm's objective.

Of course, as an economist, you'd also be fully aware of the principal-agent problem, or have they yet to cover that in Economics 101?

Yes, BAR spent a huge amount in its first year, perhaps this was to be expected. They also overspent in their second year and in their third year. Once may be an accident, twice seems careless but 3 times is a pattern. Their actual budget might have been $75 million but they easily spent many millions more. Why don't you read these share holders reports regarding the extra funds BAT has been forced to spend or garantuee?

How much do you really know about F1 budgets and the way in which a company like BAT operates. I'd love to read a share holders report - maybe you can point me to one? I'm pretty sure that BAR did not go overbudget in their third year.

What I'd be more interested in reading is the minutes of the board meetings. Unfortunately, we will never be able to read such things, so any discussion based on accounts and spending is pure speculation by both of us.

BAR certainly has got a lot of attention. I don't think it is fair to compare them with Minardi. Jaguar seems a more natural rival. They certainly have more media attention than their results deserve but is this due to Villeneuve? Firstly, they (allegedly) claimed they were going to challenge the established teams. They failed but got a lot of attention (although mostly of the "What a bunch of losers" category). In 2000, they got the Honda works engine and again attention levels were high because of Honda's stellar reputation. In 2001 they didn't really stand out except for JAX accident in Melbourne and the less said of this unfortunate incident the better. For 2002, they're back in the news with Pollock's sacking and Villeneuve's saga of CART or F1.
Is this more media than Jaguar got with their equally hyped "the Cat is back" in 2000, their Newey drama in 2001 and the Rahal/Lauda night of the long knives and the 2002 end of Jaguar or not stories?

You're absolutely right - the only team worth comparing them to is Jaguar. Sauber operates on a different outlook in F1 - a midfield team. Anyone who uses year old engines is not going to be shooting to compete with the top. After what will arguably be Sauber's most successful days in the midfield, now would have been the time for them to move forward - perhaps get a work engines contract, do a tactical driver switch and increase their presence in the sport - clearly not their objectives though.

Jaguar on the other hand chose to hire an ex-driver to manage the team. It should be mentioned that Lauda does an hour or so of interview after each race on German RTL. In these conferences, he expresses his extreme appreciation for Micheal Shumacher and often his hatred of Jacques Villeneuve. When CP says something about Micheal, everyone jumps on his back, when Lauda talks trash about drivers they ignore him. Lauda has been lucky, because CP has been his bad-media shield for years, but this will now end, especially since Walkinshaw is on the outs - I suspect that, unless it's David Richards, it will be Lauda who dissapears next.

They didn't stand out in 2001? I guess 2 podiums and thus the most successful midfield team (in terms of glamour positions) doesn't mean standing out.

The fact is, if Villeneuve wasn't at the team they would get the same amount of attention as Jordan or Sauber, becuase they don't have a big name behind them, they would just be another tobacco advertised midfielder. Jaguar on the other hand chose big names for their management and for their car, and thus, shot themselves in the foot. However, they got it relatively easy because of BAR's presence in the midfield.

Seems very even to me and nothing directly because of impressive performances by Villeneuve.

But to get back to Almalik_Abdullah's original post, Richards could have held his discussions with Villeneuve/Pollock behind closed doors but in F1, negotiating is done by lying to the press and public to get a better bargaining position. It's not classy but it is the way it works. As to Button, he's relatavily cheap and if he equals Villeneuve's performance, he can be the man the team is built around instead of the more expensive Villeneuve. This role Panis could not have filled because he was reaching the end of his career and BAR want a long term project, hence Button's 4 year deal.

Your lack of respect for Villeneuve is what clouds your judgement. Your argument stands in your view because you really don't believe that Villeneuve brings anything to the team - development, sponsorship, or success.

Since this is the 3rd posting trying to convince you of this, and each time you bring out another reason for not wanting to believe it, I won't continue to beat a dead horse - you may not hate Villeneuve like many do, but you don't give him the respect he deserves.

[DoS]

Originally posted by taran


Discarded???? Yeez, you don't have to agree with me but to suggest that posts get discarded....
What are you? The thought police? Get a grip man, this is a forum, to exchange thoughts, ideas or pov's.

As to the BAT board being filled with smart people who knew what they were doing, bollocks. The story as far as is known was that Pollock reigned supreme without any supervision and managed to go $100m over budget! Does that sound as supervision to you?
The reason this happened was because the experienced "racing" people at BAT from Rothmans were replaced by the Lucky Strike brand personell. Only when the original boss from Rothmans questioned in 2000 why BAT was pissing millions away when he delivered multiple championships with Williams for $40m a year was a full scale investigation launched. BAT directors were amazed to find that Pollack was still serving as Villeneuve's manager and actually kept his manager's cut. For 2001 they immediately claimed the right to negotiate themselves. Check some F1 sites, I'm sure you'll finds some idignant bleating from Villeneuve that he "demanded to negotiate with Pollock instead of some BAT bigwig" in early 2001.
As to the board of BAT, they are probably experienced and able managers in selling tobacco. Just as probably they don't know anything about running a race team. Because they were not happy with the way things were going, they sacked Pollock and installed Richards. That much should be clear to everyone.

Again your post is full of bulls* and half truths. You say "Pollock reigned supreme without any supervision"...what kind of crap is that ?? Man do you remember Andrian Reynard, the war between the two, the fact that CP could not do whatever he wanted with the team and the technical staff because as he stated repeatedly they would not let him to !!!
BAR was a new team from scratch. Do you seriously think that they would not get over budget in their first year...and that budget was not that huge actually. BAR wanted to start winning from year 1...of course it was bollocks but they had to spent the money in their effort to make that happen. Then you go on saying that about BAT and their investigations on CP and JV...you are again presenting the facts twisted...so CP took advantage of BAT heh ?? Oohhhh pleeease Where would BAR be now if JV had left them in 2000 ? (2000 and 20001 he finished best of the rest as i can recollect). He was and still is the only reason in the team for getting all of its TV coverage and general brand-recognition.

Originally posted by taran

As to the CART offer, nobody really knows what went on. I certainly don't. But let's look at what was "leaked".
First: Richards says Villeneuve is too expensive and that the money is needed to invest in the techology. Villeneuve can have his $20m or a fast(er) car, not both.
Second: Forsythe & Co. say they would love to have Villeneuve back in CART and are willing to make a serious offer.
Do you really think that offer was never made?
From GrandPrix.com:
Another mystery...
Craig Pollock was wandering around the paddock at Spa telling anyone who cared to listen that he has never had any negotiations with Gerald Forsythe and that the American's recent revelations in Canada newspapers about negotiations with Jacques Villeneuve are pure fabrication. This does not seem very likely as Forsythe does not have the reputation of making things up as he goes along (unlike some other team bosses one could name).

One can only assume that talks were handled by a go-between...
Again from GrandPrix.com
A reality check for Villeneuve
The news revealed by CART team owner Gerald Forsythe that Jacques Villeneuve has turned down a $50m offer from him to race in CART in 2003 and then return to F1 for two more years with BAR is an indication that the top drivers are going to have to pay more attention to the real world. There is a major recession taking place and if the dirvers fail to take note of this, there are going to be some careers broken and some egos dented.
Gone are the days when a driver could demand whatever he wanted from a team. Only one man - Michael Schumacher - has that kind of clout in a world where money is increasingly hard to find. The fact that Forsythe and BAR were willing to offer Jacques $50m is extraordinary in itself, one might even say generous. His current deal for 2003 is worth around $20m but this was agreed in the days before the stock markets took to tumbling and before shareholders began to look more closely at where money was going. Admittedly in times of recession, tobacco companies traditionally do better, but clearly there is a limit to how far they will be pushed - and whether he likes it or not Villeneuve does not have the clout to push them beyond that.

Man i am not even going to try and argue about this one with you. You are underestimating our intelligence if you come here, link us to some crap quotes from GRANDPRIX.COM ( yeah they are sooo reliable ) and keep making assumptions on what has been leaked. Listen to me man...noone cares about what has been *leaked*...you know y ? Because all this crap was leaked by ONE SIDE ONLY...DR's side. That man who must have no self-respect is "at it" right form the beginning of the season spreading rumours about JV and his career. He is not a man, he is a snake, he playes good with Jax in front of him (as JV pointed out yesterday-that he is sick of his hypocritic smiling and taps at the back).
And has any1 thought of how all these **** can have an effect on JV performance ?? Theese guys are athletes, their peformances are always affected A LOT by their psychological state, it happens with all athletes. I guess your boss going around from DAY1 saying to every1 that he is trying to damp you, especially when you are an F1 driver == huge ego (they all have such a thing, even Yoong) could have an effect on you...

Originally posted by taran

The problem now for Jacques is that he has nothing beyond the end of 2003 and the indications are that he will not be offered another deal by BAR. One never knows in F1 whether an announcement is part of the negotiating process and it is possible that this very public rebuff has been designed to bring him back to the negotiating table with a little more realism. But perhaps the door has been slammed shut.
The big question now is whether or not Villeneuve, who is 30, is an attractive enough package for one of the top teams to take interest in the future. He is a former CART champion and Indianapolis 500 winner and the World Champion of 1997 but since making the decision to join BAR his career has drifted without any major results. His performances when compared to those of Olivier Panis have not really been value for money and his attitude towards promotional work is, at best, unrealistic. This was fine as long as his manager and mentor Craig Pollock was running BAR, but Pollock has been ousted and things have changed. The top teams are all seemingly filled until the end of 2004, and the rest cannot even consider paying the kind of money that Villeneuve is asking. The message is simple: salaries are coming down.

Might I suggest you take your own advice and look at the facts. You might find them iluminating....

Jax will be alright, he has no probs at all and you should stop worrying about his future I be my ass that hes going to get a drive for 04..and 05.
Anyway, man you are a looser..."look at the facts" you say..wtf ? what facts ? your post is full of on sided speculations and inaquaracies...
You make me laugh