180 replies to this topic

[Max Torque]

After the Italian GP ended something strange came to my mind, so I did a little statistic research for this season. Look at what I found:


MS vs. RB points up until Schuamcher gets the WDC title in France:

MS: 10, 4, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 10
Total: 96.

RB: 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 6, 0, 4, 10, 6, 0
Total: 32.


Now, MS vs. RB points after the WDC is won:

MS: 10, 6, 10, 6
Total: 32

RB: 3, 10, 6, 10
Total: 29


While Ferrari is going for the WDC Schumacher gets 3x more points than Barrichello.

After the WDC is secured (and (a) the WCC depends on both drivers and (b) after that is secured as well the goal is Barrichello finishing vice-champion) Schumacher gets only 3 more points (compared to 3x!) than Barrichello.

Isn't this a fascinating statistic?

[LuckyStrike1]

Well we all knew that anyway didn't we?

[shabby]

Yeah fascinating. Probably RB is a much better driver!

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
Well we all knew that anyway didn't we?

Did we

However, I am glad we have proof in our hands

Max, thanks for statistic

[Martijn]

Shows just how well Schumacher is at helping his teammate, by staying behind him.

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by Martijn
Shows just how well Schumacher is at helping his teammate, by staying behind him.

auch! but true

[Karel]

In my opinion, it shows extremely good management from the whole Ferrari team. It will get them all the goals they set out to achieve.

[Ray Bell]

There was a time when this happened every year at Ferrari...

But it was their insistence on trying to win at Le Mans. All energies in the lead up to the event in June would be directed to getting that job done... with races at Daytona, Sebring, the Targa Florio, Nurburgring 1000km to be won on the way... later the Monza 1000km as well... earlier the Mille Miglia... and F1 was secondary to them.

So often their F1 contenders had to stage a comeback from a poor start to the season.

With the higher level of competition in F1, this is very much a parallel situation... the number one driver gets the attention till the title is secured, then the number two gets what he should have all along...

[tania_walesuk]

Ferrari concentrating on rubens still gives Michael more points that doesn't do nothing for me still show Schumacher find it really hard to drive slow.

[rgagne]

Originally posted by Max Torque
After the Italian GP ended something strange came to my mind, so I did a little statistic research for this season. Look at what I found:


MS vs. RB points up until Schuamcher gets the WDC title in France:

MS: 10, 4, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 10
Total: 96.

RB: 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 6, 0, 4, 10, 6, 0
Total: 32.


Now, MS vs. RB points after the WDC is won:

MS: 10, 6, 10, 6
Total: 32

RB: 3, 10, 6, 10
Total: 29


While Ferrari is going for the WDC Schumacher gets 3x more points than Barrichello.

After the WDC is secured (and (a) the WCC depends on both drivers and (b) after that is secured as well the goal is Barrichello finishing vice-champion) Schumacher gets only 3 more points (compared to 3x!) than Barrichello.

Isn't this a fascinating statistic?

i think without the Hungary fiasco, and the fear of the public it brought to Ferrari, it would look like this:

MS: 10, 10, 10, 10
Total: 40

RB: 3, 6, 6, 6
Total: 21

RGagne

[SB]

Micheal has told you in Austria (not exact wordings) - "I wish the championship can be decided eariler so that we can have a fair fight between us ........ "

[wati]

Originally posted by Max Torque




Isn't this a fascinating statistic?

Yeah, it is, and it just shows what a tosser RB is. Even with full team support and Schumi gifting him one win after another he can't outscore him.

RB
MS:

Wattie

[Simioni]

Originally posted by wati


Yeah, it is, and it just shows what a tosser RB is. Even with full team support and Schumi gifting him one win after another he can't outscore him.

Not that you make any sense, but if not for a pitstop problem at hockenheim the score would now be even. You wouldn't be able to tell who's the one earning the 50 million

As for giving away wins, MS was surely lifting a lot of dust today for someone in a charity mission.

[da Silva]

Originally posted by wati


Yeah, it is, and it just shows what a tosser RB is. Even with full team support and Schumi gifting him one win after another he can't outscore him.

RB
MS:

Wattie

What do you mean with a tosser?
Gifting him one win? Which one was that, are you meaning the Hungary GP were the racing was done at saturday which the tosser won?
Did Barrichello really have the so called full support at Spa? I don´t think so, Schumacher had a car which were 1 seconds faster every lap.
Does Barrichello have Schumachers mechanics and engineers now?
This so called tosser have also outqualified and outraced Schumacher despite being an support driver. There are many examples this year of his great pace and qualities as an racer.

[orange]

Still no racing between ferrari drivers ... sort of boring ...

[senninha]

Originally posted by Max Torque
After the Italian GP ended something strange came to my mind, so I did a little statistic research for this season. Look at what I found:


MS vs. RB points up until Schuamcher gets the WDC title in France:

MS: 10, 4, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 10
Total: 96.

RB: 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 6, 0, 4, 10, 6, 0
Total: 32.


Now, MS vs. RB points after the WDC is won:

MS: 10, 6, 10, 6
Total: 32

RB: 3, 10, 6, 10
Total: 29


While Ferrari is going for the WDC Schumacher gets 3x more points than Barrichello.

After the WDC is secured (and (a) the WCC depends on both drivers and (b) after that is secured as well the goal is Barrichello finishing vice-champion) Schumacher gets only 3 more points (compared to 3x!) than Barrichello.

Isn't this a fascinating statistic?

Now, just imagine if Ferrari let Rubens race for title:

Australia - RB=10pts; MS= -4 (RB starting on pole at street circuit. MS only pass with team-order);
Sepang - RB = 6pts; MS = -1 (without "blow RB engine" button);
Brazil - RB= (at least) 6pts; (RB with F2002 and without realiabilty problems)
Spain - RB = (at least) 6pts (just starting)
Austria - RB = +4; MS = -4 (without team-orders)
Canada - RB = +6; MS = -4 (just if strategy was copied from JPM)
England - RB - +4; MS = -4 (just not starting on 22nd)
France - RB (at least) = +6 (just stating)

RB = +48 pts
MS = - 17pts

points after France =

MS = 79 pts
RB = 80 pts

I hate Ferrari.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by senninha


Now, just imagine if Ferrari let Rubens race for title:

Australia - RB=10pts; MS= -4 (RB starting on pole at street circuit. MS only pass with team-order);
Sepang - RB = 6pts; MS = -1 (without "blow RB engine" button);
Brazil - RB= (at least) 6pts; (RB with F2002 and without realiabilty problems)
Spain - RB = (at least) 6pts (just starting)
Austria - RB = +4; MS = -4 (without team-orders)
Canada - RB = +6; MS = -4 (just if strategy was copied from JPM)
England - RB - +4; MS = -4 (just not starting on 22nd)
France - RB (at least) = +6 (just stating)

RB = +48 pts
MS = - 17pts

points after France =

MS = 79 pts
RB = 80 pts

I hate Ferrari.

Dude, don't bogart that smoke, dood... pass it on down!

[baddog]

Originally posted by senninha


Now, just imagine if Ferrari let Rubens race for title:

Australia - RB=10pts; MS= -4 (RB starting on pole at street circuit. MS only pass with team-order);
Sepang - RB = 6pts; MS = -1 (without "blow RB engine" button);
Brazil - RB= (at least) 6pts; (RB with F2002 and without realiabilty problems)
Spain - RB = (at least) 6pts (just starting)
Austria - RB = +4; MS = -4 (without team-orders)
Canada - RB = +6; MS = -4 (just if strategy was copied from JPM)
England - RB - +4; MS = -4 (just not starting on 22nd)
France - RB (at least) = +6 (just stating)

RB = +48 pts
MS = - 17pts

points after France =

MS = 79 pts
RB = 80 pts

I hate Ferrari.

you live in yout own little fantasy world dont you? so taking himself out through sheer bad driving is now ferraris fault? being just plain slower is ferraris fault?

your figures basically say that if rb was both luckier AND better he would have scored more. well yeeessss...

Shaun

[AtlanticRacer]

Originally posted by rgagne


i think without the Hungary fiasco, and the fear of the public it brought to Ferrari, it would look like this:

MS: 10, 10, 10, 10
Total: 40

RB: 3, 6, 6, 6
Total: 21

RGagne

Oh come on, Give Rubbino some credit. He would have won today no matter what Ferraris orders were. He is a decent driver that can beat Schumacher on occasion- even more now days. .. and weren't you talking about Austria?

[senninha]

Originally posted by baddog


you live in yout own little fantasy world dont you? so taking himself out through sheer bad driving is now ferraris fault? being just plain slower is ferraris fault?

your figures basically say that if rb was both luckier AND better he would have scored more. well yeeessss...

Shaun

I just admited RB would beat MS only twice by his merits, AFTER counts with a "normal" job by Ferrari.

Just imagine if i consider MS car had REALIABILITY problems?

A blow engine at Spain and non start at Brazil, for example?

[Dunder]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer


Oh come on, Give Rubbino some credit. He would have won today no matter what Ferraris orders were. He is a decent driver that can beat Schumacher on occasion- even more now days. .. and weren't you talking about Austria?

I guess this is Rubens' problem. Being #1b at Ferrari, very few believe that those wins were acheived on merit. A look at the lap times MS produced during Rubens second stint yesterday, very clearly gives the impression that he could have gone faster and been ahead after Rubens' 2nd stop.

This lack of belief is likely to be reinforced at the start of '03 - what odds would you accept for RB to finish in front of MS in any of the first 5 races?

Ruben's APPEARS to be enjoying himself right now, but given a situation where Williams/McLaren are more comeptitive and Ferrari cannot 'allocate' wins, I am pretty sure Ruben's will become as disillusioned as Eddie did.

[baddog]

you cant do the maths your way. you give rubens 10 points for australia, but dont give ms 10 for sepang? how does that work?

fact. rb has been genuinely faster maybe twice this year (lets be super generous and say 3). there have been 15 races. there isnt a lot of room for any conclusion other than the obvious.

Rubens has never been slow. on his good day he is VERY fast. its just that his good days are depressingly rare. Given the perfect car for him he has been better, but still not there and still not consistent.

Shaun

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by senninha


Now, just imagine if Ferrari let Rubens race for title:

Australia - RB=10pts; MS= -4 (RB starting on pole at street circuit. MS only pass with team-order);
Sepang - .........blah blah blah

senninha, RB can, and infact should be Ferrari WC one day.
I promise, I am not joking.
RB is damn good, he is just too easily rattled and does not have enough confidence.
But he is finally building up confidence win after win. The skill is there.
He will inherit the team that Michael helped rebuild.
And become Ferrari team leader in a few years.
Please, have patience. There will be a Brazilian WC soon enough.
Ferrari are grooming him. MS/Ross/Jean/Luca/Luca/Paolo/Rory respect him immensly.
Infact, they love RB. I am from Italy, and we love Brazilians alot.
We put the future of our football clubs in the expert hand of Brazilian players many times.
They just ask him to be a little patient a little, because the firm comes first.
Understand, Ferrari waited 21 years for these WCs. They got them. RB was not a priority.
Now it is time for RB to enjoy himself.

[rgagne]

Originally posted by AtlanticRacer


Oh come on, Give Rubbino some credit. He would have won today no matter what Ferraris orders were. He is a decent driver that can beat Schumacher on occasion- even more now days. .. and weren't you talking about Austria?

oups... right, i meant austria

I do think, however, that MS could have win today, right after RB's pit exit, he could have overtake him on his first lap if he wanted to. But i did not mean that RB is not a good driver, sorry if it sounded that way!

RGagne

[Simioni]

Originally posted by Dunder
A look at the lap times MS produced during Rubens second stint yesterday, very clearly gives the impression that he could have gone faster and been ahead after Rubens' 2nd stop.

Where did you get the laptimes? I didnt look like that from where I stood, but I haven't seen those times. Even if that was the case, Rubens would still have 17 laps to put the pace he had all race to effect.

Originally posted by Dunder

This lack of belief is likely to be reinforced at the start of '03 - what odds would you accept for RB to finish in front of MS in any of the first 5 races?

I'd bet on it, provided that he has for once a smooth and dnf free first 5 races.

Originally posted by baddog

fact. rb has been genuinely faster maybe twice this year (lets be super generous and say 3). there have been 15 races. there isnt a lot of room for any conclusion other than the obvious.

You're missing the point. how many of the other 12 would you rate to be rated "inconclusive"? I guess you're picking Austria, Silverstone and Monza as RB's 3 races. That leaves out two of Rubens wins, races in which MS was never ahead. In other two, Rubens didn't even start. He retired from ahead in other two (granted Brazil was due a two-stopper but he also had the old car handicap), and didn't go past the 1st corner in a seventh. That leaves us Imola, Monaco, Canada, Hockenheim, and Spa. A least one of those races I'd say their relative pace was debatable. One thing is certain, the score is a lot closer than the 12-3 you picture.

[senninha]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


senninha, RB can, and infact should be Ferrari WC one day.
I promise, I am not joking.
RB is damn good, he is just too easily rattled and does not have enough confidence.
But he is finally building up confidence win after win. The skill is there.
He will inherit the team that Michael helped rebuild.
And become Ferrari team leader in a few years.
Please, have patience. There will be a Brazilian WC soon enough.
Ferrari are grooming him. MS/Ross/Jean/Luca/Luca/Paolo/Rory respect him immensly.
Infact, they love RB. I am from Italy, and we love Brazilians alot.
We put the future of our football clubs in the expert hand of Brazilian players many times.
They just ask him to be a little patient a little, because the firm comes first.
Understand, Ferrari waited 21 years for these WCs. They got them. RB was not a priority.
Now it is time for RB to enjoy himself.

Agree. But

Ferrari's fans MUST have it in their mind:
1) Ferrari is much bigger than MS;
2) Ferrari isn't a total italian team, nowdays;
3) RB had his role on that WDC's (of course, less than MS): just after RB came, Ferrari won everything;
4) RB deserves the same preparation car, at least; i DON'T BELEIVE MS is sooo lucky (almost 20 races without DNF's)

... and i know MS is better than RB. But not as much as MS's fans claims. Ferrari can win without MS, EASILY.

[ruther]

Originally posted by rgagne


oups... right, i meant austria

I do think, however, that MS could have win today, right after RB's pit exit, he could have overtake him on his first lap if he wanted to. But i did not mean that RB is not a good driver, sorry if it sounded that way!

RGagne

NO WAY! Even if Schumacher had overtook Rubens, Rubens was faster(26 seconds before the second pit stop isn't enough for you?!), Rubens would overtake Schumacher again, simple.

Rubens opened a gap of 26 seconds on merit, or was Schumacher just "slow"?

[Lantern]

Rubens was just plain faster than Schumacher in the first stint?

Well, I feel a little silly. I thought they were on different pit strategies

[senninha]

Yes, very silly.

Afterall, the fastest man won today!!

Notice when RB and MS had the same fuel load, MS was with OLD tyres whenever RB had a BRAND NEW tyres. Who'd faster, if necessary?

[ruther]

fastest laps:

1) Rubens Barrichello (BRA/Ferrari/B), 1min23s657
2) Michael Schumacher (ALE/Ferrari/B), 1min24s242
3) David Coulthard (ESC/McLaren-Mercedes/M), 1min24s962
4) Juan Pablo Montoya (COL/Williams-BMW/M), 1min25s094
5) Giancarlo Fisichella (ITA/Jordan-Honda/B), 1min25s215
6) Kimi Raikkonen (FIN/McLaren-Mercedes/M), 1min25s219
7) Olivier Panis (FRA/BAR-Honda/B), 1min25s335
8) Jarno Trulli (ITA/Renault/M), 1min25s368
9) Takuma Sato (JAP/Jordan-Honda/B), 1min25s392
10) Eddie Irvine (IRL/Jaguar-Cosworth/M), 1min25s579
11) Ralf Schumacher (ALE/Williams-BMW/M), 1min25s717
12) Jenson Button (ING/Renault/M), 1min25s849
13) Nick Heidfeld (ALE/Sauber-Petronas/B), 1min25s867
14) Jacques Villeneuve (CAN/BAR-Honda/B), 1min25s883
15) Mika Salo (FIN/Toyota/M), 1min25s971
16) Mark Webber (AUS/Minardi-Asiatech/M), 1min27s104
17) Allan McNish (ESC/Toyota/M), 1min27s230
18) Alex Yoong (MAL/Minardi-Asiatech/M), 1min27s401
19) Pedro de La Rosa (ESP/Jaguar-Cosworth/M), 1min27s600
20) Felipe Massa (BRA/Sauber-Petronas/B), 1min27s770

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by ruther


NO WAY! Even if Schumacher had overtook Rubens, Rubens was faster(26 seconds before the second pit stop isn't enough for you?!), Rubens would overtake Schumacher again, simple.

Rubens opened a gap of 26 seconds on merit, or was Schumacher just "slow"?

Why do so many not understand that a car with lighter fuel and softer/fresher tyres is faster than one with lots of fuel and hard/well used tyres?

Did you notice that MS was in front of Rubens after he had his first pitstop ??

Rubens was 26 seconds ahead because of his strategy which allowed him to run a lighter car, softer compound tyres and fresher tyres (but of course he has to stop twice) and when he came out of the pits both Ferrari's were together with no time between them and because Rubens was in front the race was decided then and there between them and there was no point in racing.

Rubens won the race and deserved it, he drove well, his 2 stop strategy was superior on the day and his team mate followed the team rules.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by ruther
fastest laps:

1) Rubens Barrichello (BRA/Ferrari/B), 1min23s657
2) Michael Schumacher (ALE/Ferrari/B), 1min24s242

Read the above post.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by senninha
Yes, very silly.

Afterall, the fastest man won today!!

Notice when RB and MS had the same fuel load, MS was with OLD tyres whenever RB had a BRAND NEW tyres. Who'd faster, if necessary?

I doubt if Ruther will understand this.

[Simioni]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


Why do so many not understand that a car with lighter fuel and softer tyres is faster than one with lots of fuel and hard tyres?

Did you notice that MS was in front of Rubens after he had his first pitstop ??

Rubens was 26 seconds ahead because of his strategy which allowed him to run a lighter car, softer compound tyres and fresher tyres (but of course he has to stop twice) and when he came out of the pits both Ferrari's were together with no time between them and because Rubens was in front the race was decided then and there between them and there was no point in racing.

Rubens won the race and deserved it, he drove well, his 2 stop strategy was superior on the day and his team mate followed the team rules.

Did you miss the bit between Rubens' first stop and MS' single stop, when Rubens was still quicker despite a heavier fuel load? Ruther's point was addressed to those who think ferrari gave the race to Rubens. Even if MS had come out ahead, if they were racing Rubens would have been quick enough to pass him before the end.

[senninha]

Originally posted by ruther
fastest laps:

1) Rubens Barrichello (BRA/Ferrari/B), 1min23s657
2) Michael Schumacher (ALE/Ferrari/B), 1min24s242

It must hurt MS's fans eyes...

[ruther]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman


Why do so many not understand that a car with lighter fuel and softer tyres is faster than one with lots of fuel and hard tyres?

Did you notice that MS was in front of Rubens after he had his first pitstop ??

Rubens was 26 seconds ahead because of his strategy which allowed him to run a lighter car, softer compound tyres and fresher tyres (but of course he has to stop twice) and when he came out of the pits both Ferrari's were together with no time between them and because Rubens was in front the race was decided then and there between them and there was no point in racing.

Rubens won the race and deserved it, he drove well, his 2 stop strategy was superior on the day and his team mate followed the team rules.

The whole thing that amazes me is that you noticed Rubens was on a different strategy(I guess only you had noticed this, after you tied your own shoelaces), so he was faster, like I said before - so, what's the point?


>> Did you notice that MS was in front of Rubens after he had his first pitstop ??

No, I didn't, nobody didn't, only you. What did you expect?! That MS was behind Rubens after his pitstop?? Even if a Schumacher' s clone was in that car, he wouldn't be able to do that

[ruther]

Originally posted by Simioni



Did you miss the bit between Rubens' first stop and MS' single stop, when Rubens was still quicker despite a heavier fuel load? Ruther's point was addressed to those who think ferrari gave the race to Rubens. Even if MS had come out ahead, if they were racing Rubens would have been quick enough to pass him before the end.

I doubt if Mark Beckman will understand this.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Max Torque
After the Italian GP ended something strange came to my mind, so I did a little statistic research for this season. Look at what I found:


MS vs. RB points up until Schuamcher gets the WDC title in France:

MS: 10, 4, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6, 10, 6, 10, 10
Total: 96.

RB: 0, 0, 0, 6, 0, 6, 0, 4, 10, 6, 0
Total: 32.


Now, MS vs. RB points after the WDC is won:

MS: 10, 6, 10, 6
Total: 32

RB: 3, 10, 6, 10
Total: 29


While Ferrari is going for the WDC Schumacher gets 3x more points than Barrichello.

After the WDC is secured (and (a) the WCC depends on both drivers and (b) after that is secured as well the goal is Barrichello finishing vice-champion) Schumacher gets only 3 more points (compared to 3x!) than Barrichello.

Isn't this a fascinating statistic?

Fascinating, yes. Surprising, no. Team support is as important as the car. If driver A has a big car advantage while driver B has a similarly big support advantage, drivers A and B are roughly equally equipped for racing. What I mean is that e.g. EI, a very mediocre or possibly below mediocre driver, was turned by Ferrari #1 policy into an APPARENT top driver (well, at least a shadow of one, i.e. he got the results though he was still relatively slow though not as slow as before). Just the same MS is turned from an excellent driver into an APPARENT great one (at least in terms of results). This is just like some drivers are flattered by their cars (RB being the most obvious one currently).

[baddog]

HAHAHA

so team support makes the driver able to drive the car faster than it can go does it?

Shaun

[da Silva]

Originally posted by baddog
you cant do the maths your way. you give rubens 10 points for australia, but dont give ms 10 for sepang? how does that work?

fact. rb has been genuinely faster maybe twice this year (lets be super generous and say 3). there have been 15 races. there isnt a lot of room for any conclusion other than the obvious.

Rubens has never been slow. on his good day he is VERY fast. its just that his good days are depressingly rare. Given the perfect car for him he has been better, but still not there and still not consistent.

Shaun

Maybe twice???
Say the opposite, were have MS been faster?
In Australia? Can´t say that.
Malaysia? Hell no, RB faster
Brazil? RB was flying and were clearly faster than MS despite old car. He were an average of 0.6 seconds faster than MS
Imola? No, even or RB faster.
Spain, Can´t say because he didn´t start but RB was quick all weekend
Austria, RB faster
Monaco, even, RB faster race lap
Canada, RB faster but got his strategi screwed
Europe, kind of even but if MS was faster he screwed up with his spin
GB, RB faster
France, RB did not start
Germany, MS faster
Hungary, even the racing was done at Saturday in which RB won that one
Belgium, MS faster
Italy, RB faster

From your post it sounds as if RB have been faster two ot three times this year against twelve or thirteen!!!
But in reality they have been so close that it´s hard to tell who´s the faster one.

[mach3]

Originally posted by senninha


Now, just imagine if Ferrari let Rubens race for title:

Australia - RB=10pts; MS= -4 (RB starting on pole at street circuit. MS only pass with team-order);
Sepang - RB = 6pts; MS = -1 (without "blow RB engine" button);
Brazil - RB= (at least) 6pts; (RB with F2002 and without realiabilty problems)
Spain - RB = (at least) 6pts (just starting)
Austria - RB = +4; MS = -4 (without team-orders)
Canada - RB = +6; MS = -4 (just if strategy was copied from JPM)
England - RB - +4; MS = -4 (just not starting on 22nd)
France - RB (at least) = +6 (just stating)

RB = +48 pts
MS = - 17pts

points after France =

MS = 79 pts
RB = 80 pts

I hate Ferrari.

... and IF the Queen of England had balls she'd be the King of England. And if David Seaman had stayed in his goal...
USELESS speculation or wishful thinking

[Car no.27]

Originally posted by da Silva


What do you mean with a tosser?
Gifting him one win? Which one was that, are you meaning the Hungary GP were the racing was done at saturday which the tosser won?
Did Barrichello really have the so called full support at Spa? I don´t think so, Schumacher had a car which were 1 seconds faster every lap.
Does Barrichello have Schumachers mechanics and engineers now?
This so called tosser have also outqualified and outraced Schumacher despite being an support driver. There are many examples this year of his great pace and qualities as an racer.

Spa = A total driver's circuit
Best Driver = Micheal Schumacher

Barrichello didnt stand a chance in that race and it had a lot more to do with it then just car setups

[Battousai]

Originally posted by da Silva


Maybe twice???
Say the opposite, were have MS been faster?
In Australia? Can´t say that.
Malaysia? Hell no, RB faster
Brazil? RB was flying and were clearly faster than MS despite old car. He were an average of 0.6 seconds faster than MS
Imola? No, even or RB faster.
Spain, Can´t say because he didn´t start but RB was quick all weekend
Austria, RB faster
Monaco, even, RB faster race lap
Canada, RB faster but got his strategi screwed
Europe, kind of even but if MS was faster he screwed up with his spin
GB, RB faster
France, RB did not start
Germany, MS faster
Hungary, even the racing was done at Saturday in which RB won that one
Belgium, MS faster
Italy, RB faster

From your post it sounds as if RB have been faster two ot three times this year against twelve or thirteen!!!
But in reality they have been so close that it´s hard to tell who´s the faster one.

Do you actually watch the races?

Australia- dunno but Rubens got involved in an incident where he played a major part in the cause.
Malaysia? Michael faster- out qualified and had a fastest lap .2 sec over Rubens- if not for the shunt with JPM- Michael would have finished in front of Rubens.
Brazil- for the few laps Rubens was out in front on a 2 stop vs 1 stop by Michael- this is an unknown.
Imola- umm saying Michael didn't dominate this race is ludicrious- as Michael has shown- he will drive as quickly as he needs to win (excluding Spa ).
Spain: Rubens qualified .326 sec behind Michael - but this is an unknown
Austria- Rubens quicker
Monaco- Michael had the upper hand here- outqualified Rubens and was held up the entire race first by JPM and DC. Rubens made a bone-headed move on Kimi.
Canada- again different fuel strategies w/ Michael outqualifying and having a faster lap than Rubens- would have been very close.
Europe was a draw - but Michael made a mistake. Rubens
GB- this is unknown- Michael never pushed as hard as he needed to as the race was in the bag, Rubens pushed as hard as possible to get into second.
France: Rubens outqualified by about .2 sec- but this is an unknown
Germany: Michael
Hungary- neither driver pushed, Michael stood on the binders twice to let Rubens rejoin in the lead
Belguim - Michael
Monza- ehhh.. Rubens

So in the end Rubens was faster than Michael probably about twice. A lot of races are unknown as Rubens didn't start and in others how fast Michael could have gone is unknown.

[ruther]

Originally posted by Battousai


Do you actually watch the races?

Monaco- Michael had the upper hand here- outqualified Rubens and was held up the entire race first by JPM and DC. Rubens made a bone-headed move on Kimi.

Disagree about this one, Rubens was fast, very fast, even faster than Michael at pratices and qualifying, but got traffic at 3 of his qualifying laps. About the race, it was determined by qualifying, and Rubens did a mistake...

[HP]

Max Torque,

Do you have anything to say about stuff happening in your favourite team, rather than pointing to another team, and make RB and MS fans arguee the same point over another 100 times?

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by ruther


Disagree about this one, Rubens was fast, very fast, even faster than Michael at pratices and qualifying, but got traffic at 3 of his qualifying laps. About the race, it was determined by qualifying, and Rubens did a mistake...

Uh, the fact that Michael started 3rd and Barrichello 5th would suggest that Michael was quicker in qualifying at Monaco. The fact that he got traffic is irrelevant - it doesn't prove he would have been any quicker.

[Simioni]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Uh, the fact that Michael started 3rd and Barrichello 5th would suggest that Michael was quicker in qualifying at Monaco. The fact that he got traffic is irrelevant - it doesn't prove he would have been any quicker.

Split times do though. The gap between them was 0.2s - it wasnt too hard to spot that Rubens lost more than that due to a jaguar in his quickest lap.

[ruther]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Uh, the fact that Michael started 3rd and Barrichello 5th would suggest that Michael was quicker in qualifying at Monaco. The fact that he got traffic is irrelevant - it doesn't prove he would have been any quicker.

Oh, get traffic at Monaco is really irrelevant, great comment! 3 out of 4 laps, really irrelevant...

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by ruther


Oh, get traffic at Monaco is really irrelevant, great comment! 3 out of 4 laps, really irrelevant...

I'm not saying traffic is irrelevant, I'm saying that FACTS show Michael being quicker and you saying Rubens could have been quicker without traffic is total speculation on your part.

[ruther]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


I'm not saying traffic is irrelevant, I'm saying that FACTS show Michael being quicker and you saying Rubens could have been quicker without traffic is total speculation on your part.

maybe total speculation for you, who, it seems, didn't watch Monaco qualifying, and didn't see, or didn't want to see "split times" on Monaco qualifying, just to see Rubens was very fast until he got traffic on his best laps(3 out of 4) - one of these ones, he had his lap ruined by David Coulthard. But it seems "split times" and "traffic at Monaco" is just speculation for you...