37 replies to this topic

[David Beard]

From the Minister website...

"Despite being created 21 years ago the multi-championship, multi-Formula Ford Festival winning engine "PATCH" is still capturing the imagination of the world motor racing press. A delegation of journalists and photographers visited our factory to take photographs of the engine that powered AYRTON SENNA, ROBERTO MORENO, JULIAN BAILEY and ANDREW GILBERT SCOTT to Festival wins.
"

Remember all the FF hype about "Patch" Was it all nonsense?
Was there ever another single engine that gained such a reputation? I have a vague memory that some particular DFVs were thought to be special.

[JacnGille]

Talk about the power of words! Or a word in this case. As soon as I saw the topic I wondered if this was what was to be covered. I remember pouring over the Autosport FF coverage each week to see what Patch did. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

[2F-001]

When I saw ''Patch'' on the thread list, the first thing I thought of was that old warhorse of FF history - but I suspected I was going to be reading about some software fix...

I have saved a few magazine articles about Patch over time, but they'll take me a long while to find...
I think the 'legend' was partially self-fuelling just because it sounded so unlikely; and it usually ran in the works VD chassis with the top driver-of-the moment, so it always had a good shot. A handful friends who were racing FF at the time say it wasn't such a daft idea as it sounds - lovely story whatever the reality though.

[2F-001]

I was a bit wrong in suggesting that Patch ran only in Van Diemens - some of its later successes were in Lola and Reynard.
The engine's record in Formula Ford Festivals alone is quite amazing: I believe it won heat, quarter-final, semi and final four years on the trot; in '84 it won heat and quarter-final, then crashed out of the semi during a back-through-the-field drive after an early 'off', but did get fastest lap. Not sure what became of it after that.

Did Senna race with Patch? He didn't do the Festival in his FF season - Tommy Byrne won the Festival with it but maybe didn't use it during the year. Since it was by then a proven quantity, I can't imagine a favoured runner standing for it being circulated among the other customers!

For non-Brits who may be wondering what on earth this is all about... the story goes that Patch is/was a ''works'' XFlow FF engine built on the block of a previously blown-up motor (con-rod thru the side) and the hole was 'fixed' by tapping the block and screwing a small metal plate over it. It went into Moreno's car for the Festival - and the legend began.

[Doug Nye]

I would love to know precisely how many races this 'one and the same' engine ran betwen rebuilds - and how much was replaced in the course of those rebuilds...?????

I would lay good money that the pile of bits removed from it over that period would now occupy considerably greater volume - and weigh far more - than 'the engine' does.

DCN

[2F-001]

Oops! Sorry, I managed to double-post that.

I guess you're quite right there, Doug!
However, FF1600 engines were not massively stressed even at that level of racing, such were the strictures which effectively kept the revs down. I think it was fairly common for a cylinder head, crank and rods to have a long life wedded to their block. It would be interesting to know, though...

Whether that block just happened to have a happy combination of marginally better casting quality and accuracy, stiffness and machining tolerances (although all would have been 'blueprinted') and 'ageing' or whatever -- or whether it was a matter of once it had some pedigree of success it tended to stay with the fancied runners is hard to say...

[Ray Bell]

It's clear to me... the patch stiffened the typically weak old Cortina block.

Actually, recalling the period, FFs had regular crank replacements. I don't know about changes in Europe or England specifically, but some time in the seventies we had a rule change to allow lightening the flywheel to reduce damage to the crankshaft.

We also had a genius engine builder here who decided it would be better if the engine had a bit of offset for the pistons... you know how it is, they are made with the pin a few mm to one side to reduce side thrust in the bores for quietness in production, turn them around and you get horsepower because of the changed rod angularity?

Well, he offset ground the crankpins so that they were achieving the same effect. Then he realised he'd put the cam timing out, so he made offset dowels to get the timing right again.

In other words, he spent a lot of time and money jiggling things around to finish up back where he started!

[2F-001]

To be honest, some of the folk I mixed with were running from the poor end of the pit-lane!

[David Beard]

Thought I'd bring this to the top, since Patch has appeared again in the Historic Engines thread

[Vicuna]

Denny Hulme had a favourite DFV - 161 I think it was...

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Tommy Byrne won the Festival with it but maybe didn't use it ['Patch'] during the year.

That was the only occasion Tommy used Patch in 1981, as the only FF1600 meeting he did that year was the Festival - which he did indeed win. He also won the British and European FF2000 Championships that season...

Talk about a wasted talent; hats off to RD and TA from McL largely for that...

There's a book under way, and it will be a belter. Trust me; I know...

TW

[VAR1016]

I once rebuilt a Minister FF engine. This would have been mid-eighties; it was fitted into a Royale that belonged to a chap I knew.

Nice cylinder head I must say.

PdeRL

[Joe Bosworth]

What ever happened to "Patch"???

Regards

[Gary C]

the Blue Peter dog? I think he died in about 1975.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
What ever happened to "Patch"???

Regards

Have a look here, Joe.

http://forums.atlasf...highlight=patch

Case for a thread merge?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Gary C
the Blue Peter dog? I think he died in about 1975.

Wasn't that Shep?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
What ever happened to "Patch"???

Regards

Nice to see you're back, Joe... where've you been?

[Gary C]

there was a Patch as well, David. He preceded Shep if my memory is correct.

[Simpson RX1]

I thought "Shep" (John Noakes' Border Collie) went with him when he left and didn't die until into the 90's.

"Goldie" followed (Simon Groom's Retriever) and "Petra" (Peter Purves' Alsation) preceeded IIRC.

[Andrew Kitson]

My theory.
I believe, as do many others, that Patch was built originally by Trevor Van Rooyen in 1977, but Graham Fuller would probably deny it.

Trev built two motors and won 33 races that year including the RAC British FF Championship in his semi-works SDC Royale RP24. They were badged as Ministers. TvR built them on the bench at Royale, used Ministers dyno and Dave Minister loaned the blocks/heads and provided the parts.In return he had results - Minister beating Scholar and Trevor had free DIY engines. I was 'gofer' for Trevor in 77. Ralph Firman and Scholar protested Trev's engines so many times. Always legal.
with Rory Byrne as designer at Royale it was a successful combination.

TvR went back to ZA to a paid drive in Atlantics for '78 for Team Gunston, so the engines stayed with The Royale team and were used in the works RMC RP24, then RP26 of Kenny Acheson. Kenny blew up one of the motors in testing. Trevor was not impressed! I still remember him on the phone..It went back to Minister and was not seen again...for a year or two.

David Minister admitted in an MN interview that Trevor was the best engine builder he had ever known and he didn't really understand how he made the power he did. TvR told me once it all came from his days racing bikes, trying to eek out as much power as possible from 125cc to get down the long straight at Kyalami.

Well I reckon that Graham & David inspected that block, tried to work out what was so special and realised they could probably patch it and try to run it again. No other Minister at the time was as quick, apart from Trevor's second engine so why bother patching a run of the mill motor?
Moreno used it,so did Senna, Bailey, Gilbert-Scott, Blundell etc etc. Chances are it WAS Trev's blown motor, but even Trevor is not 100%. Minister after all would naturally want the credit as they always owned it and it was always badged as a 'Minister'.

It is ironic now that Trevor builds the modern Zetec FF Scholar engines for Jamun, who had a double win at Castle Combe last weekend.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I would love to know precisely how many races this 'one and the same' engine ran betwen rebuilds - and how much was replaced in the course of those rebuilds...?????

I would lay good money that the pile of bits removed from it over that period would now occupy considerably greater volume - and weigh far more - than 'the engine' does.

DCN

If 'patch' is Trevor's ex-engine, it would probably have been stripped and on the dyno after every race meeting as he has always done. Even today he is over at Scholar on their dyno with the Jamun Zetec engines a couple of days per week.

[Andrew Kitson]

Another thing I have just remembered. Trevor came back from South Africa in 1989, his race driving days over having been South African F2 champion in 1985.
He lodged at my place for about 6 months and had a job building the engines for Fulmar Reynard, run by Alan Cornock ex-Royale boss. This time the motors were 'Aurigas', same deal - Martin Spence at Auriga in Dartford loaned the bits and dyno time, Trevor built them at 'Fulmar' in Huntingdon, Auriga got results.
Using Trevor's Aurigas Bernard Dolan was pretty successful as was team mate Gil de Ferran. Gareth Rees too.
I recall going round scrapyards with Trevor, looking for Kent blocks and heads. He said only an engine that has been 'weathered', having done 100,000 miles plus would make a good FF race engine. Amazing thing was, he could take the head off there and then and know instantly.

[Gary C]

superb information, Simpson!

[Andrew Kitson]

I have added to the other 'patch' thread - the engine one! Perhaps the mods could merge?

[D-Type]

Out of curiosity I googled for 'Blue Peter' and Patch.

It turns out that Petra, a mongrel was the first Blue Peter dog (ok technically the first and second as the first Petra died after one episode) and Patch was her son, the first Blue Peter puppy. See this site and others.

Why can't European Championships etc be as easy to resolve?

[Andrew Kitson]

Just out of interest, Trevor's 1977 semi-works Royale RP24, designed by Rory Byrne, maintained and engineered by Trevor ( including Minister engine, I believe 'patch' before the blow up).
Pictured here leading arch rival Chico Serra in works Van Diemen RF77 scholar at Oulton.


Here at Mallory:

[Joe Bosworth]

Good stuff guys but can anybody tell me where Patch is today??? Like who can put there hands on it!

And Ray, kind message, but I have been busy talking to Geoff M about making front enngine Juniors go quicker. I will be back on a Warwick Farm thing soon. Besides sitting in a hospital with a daughter for three weeks isn't conducive to keeping up. A couple of good paragliding weekends isn't either.

Regards

[Ray Bell]

We await your next contribution, Joe...

Maybe I've got pics here to illustrate it.

[ghinzani]

How bizzare, I was reading an old Autosport from 1983 last night (insomnia, I cant get no sleep) and there was a two page story about Patch (I think by the excellant Jeremy Shaw). Just having Patch in the 80's gave you a psychological advantage I reckon. We used Drum engines to win the 94 Kent festival but by then the focus had moved to the ill-conceived Zetecs. 1600 was always way better.

btw there was also an advert in that issue for Jo Gartners transporter (sleeps 8 and plenty of dining space!!) and an F2 chassis (Toleman I think), contact one S. Dent... did you pay full price on that ad Twinny ?

[ghinzani]

Oh btw Drum engines were named after Andy (the main mans) penchant for the legal Dutch rolling stuff. Great engines, as were the Aurigas we ran beforehand. We tried building our own engine once. It was ****! We stuck it an RF88 we were offloading and told them it was a champ winning mill...

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by ghinzani

btw there was also an advert in that issue for Jo Gartners transporter (sleeps 8 and plenty of dining space!!) and an F2 chassis (Toleman I think), contact one S. Dent... did you pay full price on that ad Twinny ?

Well, Ghinza, it wouldn't have been down to me to pay for the ad as such, as I merely acted as a go-between on behalf of my mate. But I do get your drift...

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
He said only an engine that has been 'weathered', having done 100,000 miles plus would make a good FF race engine.

IIRC one of those contemperaneous articles used the "weathered" explanation for Patch but in the context of it having spent some months outside in the open after the original hole was made in the side and before someone decided to patch it up and use it again. Ring any bells? Make any sense to any metallurigists?

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


IIRC one of those contemperaneous articles used the "weathered" explanation for Patch but in the context of it having spent some months outside in the open after the original hole was made in the side and before someone decided to patch it up and use it again. Ring any bells? Make any sense to any metallurigists?

Like the German engineers making the urine on ze BMW F1 blocks, yes?

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps the hole in the block relieved some built in tension and allowed the block to collaps so it was straight?

Or, more likely, the patch was stronger than the block and held it together...

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
Good stuff guys but can anybody tell me where Patch is today??? Like who can put there hands on it!

I'm sure I read somewhere that Patch had been "converted" into a coffee table and belonged to someone who was deeply involved but I can't remember who that was.

[Joe Bosworth]

There is a method to my madness bringing up the subject of Patch.

This year's Festival is, I believe, reverting to featuring the Kent engines as the primary class. I was rather hoping that Patch still existed to see if anyone would be game to give it another try.

Even if no one was willing to try it in the prime class it would still be interesting to see how it would do in the historic FF Class. I know where there is an ex Jim Sullivan, Team Promecom, Brabham BT15 which is log booked to run Formula Ford which might be well run with Patch.

Actually, the idea of Patch existing as a coffee table as noted above is absolutely repugnant. Such things deserve to see out there old age in glorious if only infrequent use.

Anyway it seems that some good new historical fact has been uncovered.

regards

[chrisbailey]

Having just discovered the Bulletin Board, I was intrigued to read all this stuff on "Patch". Although it will be denied until the cows come home by those who should know better, the explanation given by Andy Kitson is quite likely true. In 1976/77 I had the good fortune to work for Rory Byrne at Royale whilst making my way through college. I hooked up with Trevor van Rooyen and helped him run his RP21 in 76 and RP24 in 77. His engines, self-built in the Royale shed on Little Staughton Airfield and dyno'd next door on a dyno that was calibrated for 800hp marine Chevy's, were from bits supplied by Dave Minister. Officially a works Minister user, Trevor's engines never saw the inside of Minister's premises until he returned to South Africa. Legend has it that Dave Minister kept both engines underneath his bed at home until he could figure out what made them work so well! He never did. Eventually, they found their way into other cars and the legend was born. Both "Patch" and (I think) 633 were exceptional powerplants and the fruit of endless hours of patient development. If you counted up the hours lavished on them by TvR in search of that last half a brake horsepower, you realise why a commercial engine builder could not come close. Having these engines helped TvR to over 30 race wins in 1977 against some serious opposition, on a laughable budget. The RP24 in its initial form was a serious understeerer. As such, it needed huge commitment to make it work. TvR was the best exponent of the time. In 78 the understeer was largely fixed and allowed Kenny Acheson to fully exploit the car's good features. That, plus the use of two particular "works" Minister engines led to a clean sweep of all the major FF championships that year.

On another note, Rory Byrne is about to retire. It's about time that the world of motor racing recognized him as the greatest designer of his time. I've worked with both Rory and Adrian Newey. Good though he is (and he is very good indeed), Adrian doesn't come close to Mr Byrne in my opinion. From FF to F1, via FF2000, F3, and F2, Rory has done the job at all levels. That's without mentioning the rockets (another story altogether)!

[Andrew Kitson]

Hi Chris! Good to see you here. You'll have to tell your stories here of your time at Hethel with chunky ;) Will be in touch.