136 replies to this topic

[BMWMPower]

Here are some good pictures of this incident posted by Todd:

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-38.html

Frame 1: JPM is maybe 1 meter ahead and starts closing the door on Ralf. JPM is not far enough ahead at this point to have a claim on the corner. He forces Ralf to turn in early and take an tighter line. Anyone who has any racing experience whatsoever knows this was a boneheaded move on JPM's behalf.

Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

Frame 4: Ralf is in a spin and there's no turning back.

Frames 5 and on: Ralf loses his wing and with it any chances for a decent race. JPM is very lucky to have gotten away without any damage. Williams goes on to a 4th/16th place finish instead of what could have easily been a 3rd/4th place finish. Thanks JPM!

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Here are some good pictures of this incident posted by Todd:

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-38.html

Frame 1: JPM is maybe 1 meter ahead and starts closing the door on Ralf. JPM is not far enough ahead at this point to have a claim on the corner. He forces Ralf to turn in early and take an tighter line. Anyone who has any racing experience whatsoever knows this was a boneheaded move on JPM's behalf.

Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

Frame 4: Ralf is in a spin and there's no turning back.

Frames 5 and on: Ralf loses his wing and with it any chances for a decent race. JPM is very lucky to have gotten away without any damage. Williams goes on to a 4th/16th place finish instead of what could have easily been a 3rd/4th place finish. Thanks JPM!

Yes I agree. There was also a sequence shown on the ITV coverage, taken from the other side of the track where it was clear that JPM was much closer than his apologists suggested.

What is interesting is that this set shows that they appear to have touched before the RS's spin.

Thanks for posting the pictures.

PdeRL

[Alaweni]

You are the first person I've seen yet say they hit prior to Ralf losing it and swinging into JPM. The replay that was posted from the Russian F1 video site shows a view looking at Turn 1 from the infield, not just a shot down the main straight. It clearly shows JPM going wide and Ralf losing it on his own. I also witnessed it with my own eyes as I sit on Turn 1, Stand H, and Ralf clearly just lost it just like JPM did to David at the European GP.

[MrBreaker]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Here are some good pictures of this incident posted by Todd:

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-38.html

Frame 1: JPM is maybe 1 meter ahead and starts closing the door on Ralf. JPM is not far enough ahead at this point to have a claim on the corner. He forces Ralf to turn in early and take an tighter line. Anyone who has any racing experience whatsoever knows this was a boneheaded move on JPM's behalf.

Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

Frame 4: Ralf is in a spin and there's no turning back.

Frames 5 and on: Ralf loses his wing and with it any chances for a decent race. JPM is very lucky to have gotten away without any damage. Williams goes on to a 4th/16th place finish instead of what could have easily been a 3rd/4th place finish. Thanks JPM!

I think you make a lot of assumptions. In no one frame can you ever see JPM's tire touch RS's, you assume that they did b/c they were so close. But there have been plently of times when tires are are extremely close to each other (JPM vs KR), but never thouch. This sequence shows me nothing. We need is an overhead shot, which unfortunately, is not available. I saw the ITV shots as well, they too showed very little. What I saw was JPM's car jault when RS began to spin. I don't remember tire smoke (from the 2 tires touching ) appearing before RS's spin, but I may be wrong.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Alaweni
You are the first person I've seen yet say they hit prior to Ralf losing it and swinging into JPM. The replay that was posted from the Russian F1 video site shows a view looking at Turn 1 from the infield, not just a shot down the main straight. It clearly shows JPM going wide and Ralf losing it on his own. I also witnessed it with my own eyes as I sit on Turn 1, Stand H, and Ralf clearly just lost it just like JPM did to David at the European GP.

Precisely.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Alaweni
You are the first person I've seen yet say they hit prior to Ralf losing it and swinging into JPM. The replay that was posted from the Russian F1 video site shows a view looking at Turn 1 from the infield, not just a shot down the main straight. It clearly shows JPM going wide and Ralf losing it on his own. I also witnessed it with my own eyes as I sit on Turn 1, Stand H, and Ralf clearly just lost it just like JPM did to David at the European GP.

So are you claiming the pictures are fakes, because JPM is definately NOT wide in those first few frames. He was basically less than a car length from the curbing, which since Ralf was directly beside him, obviously meant Ralf was forced up on the curbs. What defines 'going wide' in your book????

[Peeko]

What may help is to find other pictures of the same corner from the same angle of two cars going side by side and the space between them.

[Alaweni]

Tifosi,
What I'm saying is that telephoto lens shot down the main straight don't give an accurate depth preception. A shot like that is just like the long lens world feed shot at Monza looking down the straight leading into Parabolica, and everyone will agree that that type of view makes the straight look really short. From my view sitting right above Turn 1, I thought JPM was wide enough that he wouldn't even make it throught the corner.

[biercemountain]

Where is Mr. Zapruder when you REALLY need him?

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by Alaweni
Tifosi,
From my view sitting right above Turn 1, I thought JPM was wide enough that he wouldn't even make it throught the corner.

And in fact he didn't!;)

PdeRL

[maclaren]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

I don't think so. Although these images are from low angle they were not close to contact befor Ralf spun. Ralf didn't except such a move from teammate and didn't have enough time to react.

JPM's action caused the collision, something which should never happen between teammates.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Frame 1: JPM is maybe 1 meter ahead and starts closing the door on Ralf. JPM is not far enough ahead at this point to have a claim on the corner. He forces Ralf to turn in early and take an tighter line. Anyone who has any racing experience whatsoever knows this was a boneheaded move on JPM's behalf.

Ralf choose to defende the inside line going down the straight, and judging on the tyre marks (not that much context but I'll watch the video again more closely) he's even a little outside (not much, agreed) of the normal racing line there. Boneheaded? Squeezing somebody on the inside is a normal (hard perhaps, so be it, this is racing and JPM), especially if you know the next corner is yours.

Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

Contact? Where do you see CONTACT? What I see is opposite steering by Ralf, indicating he is already sliding under too heavy (late) braking. IF there was contact there ~unsettling~ the cars, it sure would look totally different.
I say Ralf is already in big problems at that point, and in NO way due to any contact with JPM, curbs or being swerved upon. He's simply losing it by leaving his brakes to late on the inside (more dirty) racing line, simple.

Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

As said, Ralf was already well in problems long before that shot, just look at his opposite lock (and the previous picture)

Frame 4: Ralf is in a spin and there's no turning back.

Well, at least you got your comments right on 1 frame.

Frames 5 and on: Ralf loses his wing and with it any chances for a decent race. JPM is very lucky to have gotten away without any damage. Williams goes on to a 4th/16th place finish instead of what could have easily been a 3rd/4th place finish. Thanks JPM!

make that 2 frames right.

Pffttt..

[Foxbat]

This shows exactly what the problem was in previous discussions, everyone was claiming that you could see from the infield shot that JPM gave Ralf a sea of room and that Ralf spins (apparantly of his own accord) and smacks JPM out of the race.
The actual incident took place earlier and that's what we're seeing in these shots, JPM crowds Schumacher on the curb causing Schumacher to spin and hit JPM, JPM is a bit overenthousiastically decreasing the window for his teammate (wrong schumacher ) and Ralf hangs in there because he won't budge to JPM's agressor and the inevitable happens... Two drivers to blame here, they could both have avoided the incident by making a cleaner attempt at outbreaking the other.

[EvilPhil]

This wasnt JPM's fault at all, It was Ralf trying to be the hard man again and just like Monza looking like a fool.

For a start before the frame sequence above Ralf is much further behind, it is this that caused the accident. Not only did Ralf try to brake late for the corner on the dirty side of the track but he tried to make up several car lengths on montoya who himself was braking so late on the clean side of the track that he nearly lost it himself.

Its just Ralf not giving way for Montoya ever, if it had of been Michael Schumacher in Montoyas position I feel that Ralf wouldn't of been so stupid.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Alaweni
Tifosi,
What I'm saying is that telephoto lens shot down the main straight don't give an accurate depth preception. A shot like that is just like the long lens world feed shot at Monza looking down the straight leading into Parabolica, and everyone will agree that that type of view makes the straight look really short. From my view sitting right above Turn 1, I thought JPM was wide enough that he wouldn't even make it throught the corner.

I'm basically looking at the third picture in that frame. I understand about the telephoto lens. But here I see Ralf with about half his car on the curb and it looks as if JPM is directly beside him, i.e. there wasn't any room for Ralf to be off the curbs. As to why he later drifted further wide, I believe both Ralf and JPM 'outbraked' themselves into this corner, Ralf, being on the inside was forced to stay in and ended up spinning, JPM merely let understeer take his car wide, and went basically harmlessly through the grass. Ralf screwed it up in the first place by letting JPM get beside him on the outside, by then it was impossible for Ralk to carry JPMs speed into the corner, he should have just backed off. JPM also, couldn't hit the apex of the corner, so then couldn't make the rest of the turn, since Ralf was already there. Both drivers made errors, but it was errors made by hard racing so really no big deal. Neither had a hope in hell of beating Ferrari, nor DC I don't think.

BTW how does JPMs top trap speed compare to DC's, just wondering who was faster down to turn 1.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Foxbat
Two drivers to blame here, they could both have avoided the incident by making a cleaner attempt at outbreaking the other.

True, but if one of them braked earlier the other would have been big hero on this BB ;)

[karlth]

Ralf too aggressively tried to outbrake Montoya not only while in the marbles but also while behind his teammate and spun.

How on earth that is supposed to be Montoya's fault I'm at loss to understand.

[biercemountain]

Judging from the angle of the photos, a VERY powerful telephoto lens was being used to take these pictures. These lenses cause distortions in the perceivable distances between two objects. They basically "flatten" everything into a single plane and make objects appear closer together than they really are.

Based on this, I think these photos are almost useless with regards to determining whether the two Williams drivers touched prior to Ralf's spin.

Having seen the footage from the infield section, it's my opinion that Ralf spun prior to ever touching JPM.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by EvilPhil

Its just Ralf not giving way for Montoya ever, if it had of been Michael Schumacher in Montoyas position I feel that Ralf wouldn't of been so stupid.

I agree, but I can't escape the feeling that JPM's own "never-say-die" attitude is inviting such actions from other drivers (and doubly from Ralf who doesn't like to be beaten by (t)his teammate ).

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Here are some good pictures of this incident posted by Todd:

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-38.html

Frame 1: JPM is maybe 1 meter ahead and starts closing the door on Ralf. JPM is not far enough ahead at this point to have a claim on the corner. He forces Ralf to turn in early and take an tighter line. Anyone who has any racing experience whatsoever knows this was a boneheaded move on JPM's behalf.

Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

It is a good thing that you are not doing photo interpretation for the military.

The lens used to make the images in question is longer than what would be a so called normal lens for the format in question.
This type of lens (longer than normal) has an effect on the image called foreshortening, or what some may call compression of the image.
Objects in the background appear to be closer to the foreground than they really are.
Because of this effect it is impossible to use the images provided in the link to draw any conclusion regarding weather or not the two cars hit before Ralf spun. Basically the images are useless for this purpose.
Now if the camera had been directly overhead then we would have some useful information for this question.

Perhaps the SPEED version of the race will contain some angles that clearly show weather or not the two touched before Rafl spun.

IMHO JPM had the corner and Ralf refused to give it up, out braked himself onto the curb and spun into JPM. 100% Ralf's fault.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by karlth
Ralf too aggressively tried to outbrake Montoya not only while in the marbles but also while behind his teammate and spun.

How on earth that is supposed to be Montoya's fault I'm at loss to understand.

In general racing rules if JPM (outside) was only slightly in front of Ralf then both are guilty!

[Texas]

I think as an impartial McLaren fan, both sides are missing the point. Why is JPM making a move on his teammate unless he knows for sure that he has room to let both cars through. On the flipside, why does Ralf show balls going into a corner only when facing his teammate. If that had been Michael, I can almost guarentee that Ralf would of let up. I admire the way the teams other than Ferrari let their drivers race, but the first considration should be to let both cars finish the race. I think Montoya was a bit too impatient when making this move and Ralf should of braked sooner since he was forced to take the inside line. If he had he probably would of been able to retake the position by turn 3 with a different line and JPM having to scrub off more speed to make the corner.

[karlth]

Originally posted by maclaren
In general racing rules if JPM (outside) was only slightly in front of Ralf then both are guilty!

The outside is the racing line into turn 1. Montoya was on the racing line and ahead, it was his corner.

[tifosi]

I don't think they touched, only that Ralf, being on the inside braked to late and JPM's own line meant Ralf either had to take to the curb or just hit. That being said I agree Ralf was gonna spin, curb or no curb. Taking that tight of line at that speed means spin.

BTW when did this Ralf making up car lengths come from, Ive watched this 5 times now and I see JPM has a Wing, maybe half the front tyre on Ralf. Car lengths????

[karlth]

Originally posted by Texas
I think Montoya was a bit too impatient when making this move and Ralf should of braked sooner since he was forced to take the inside line. If he had he probably would of been able to retake the position by turn 3 with a different line and JPM having to scrub off more speed to make the corner.

Like Ferrari said you can't overtake with the same car on this circuit. Well Montoya did simply because Ralf bungled the last corner before the straight and Juan caught the tow.

Montoya wouldn't be Montoya (or at least I wouldn't be talking about him) if he had let that opportunity slip.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by karlth
Originally posted by Texas
I think Montoya was a bit too impatient when making this move and Ralf should of braked sooner since he was forced to take the inside line. If he had he probably would of been able to retake the position by turn 3 with a different line and JPM having to scrub off more speed to make the corner.

Like Ferrari said you can't overtake with the same car on this circuit. Well Montoya did simply because Ralf bungled the last corner before the straight and Juan caught the tow.

Montoya wouldn't be Montoya (or at least I wouldn't be talking about him) if he had let that opportunity slip.

If JPM had properly caught that tow, he would have been around Ralf much more obviously than he was. Outbraking Ralf is a tough proposition anyway, JPM should know that. I think they both screwed the pooch: JPM was being too aggressive, after having bungled his start a bit (that old Red Rage he seems unable to control) and Ralf for not keeping it gathered up. JPM didn't leave either any room for error, maybe squeezing Ralf a little more than he should have. Once Ralf got on the kerb, there wasn't much else that could have happened.

[TMinxLvr]

I blame them both. It was a stupid for teammates to put themselves into that situation, especially on the second lap. I would loved to have been a fly on the wall when Patrick Head read them the riot act after the race.

Although I don't endorse Ferrari's way of managing the competition within their own team, this is the perfect example of the sort of thing that they wish to avoid. At this late stage of the season it may mean little to the points race but it is does little to please the sponsors, is expensive, and frankly dangerous.

[Engineguy]

The first frame tells it all... JPM is on the racing line (which legitimately arcs inward at this point), is ahead, and has the momentum (was behind; now ahead). He should have every expectation that RS will cede defeat to his more talented teammate and fall in behind him. For RS to be bull-headed and try to challenge, off-line, is ill-advised. That's the decision he takes, however, and the predictable result is evident in frame 2 as RS is out of control with obvious opposite lock as he's beginning his spin prior to any contact. Part of being a good driver is knowing when to back off; to "live" to fight another lap... when later your situation (tire wear, pit stop, traffic), or skill may allow to get back past the guy passing you.

[TMinxLvr]

He should have every expectation that RS will cede defeat to his more talented teammate and fall in behind him.

LOL. So much for being impartial- but I admire your being honest. You don't seriously think that Ralf thinks that do you?

aloha.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by karlth


Like Ferrari said you can't overtake with the same car on this circuit. Well Montoya did simply because Ralf bungled the last corner before the straight and Juan caught the tow.

Montoya wouldn't be Montoya (or at least I wouldn't be talking about him) if he had let that opportunity slip.

I agree now.
Having seen the incident first hand, I knew it would end in tears, and said to myself "JPM is too impatient again!". But given the circumstances that led up to the final outside attack from JM, I can see how JM had 'to go for it.' He prob. had no choice. The window was too perfect given RS's initial mistake. I fault RS a little more in this case. It is difficult to make outside moves in turn 1. MS's one on DC was damn close, but those two survived. This one was a mess, and PH must be upset at both understandably.
Racing incident pure and simple.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by Engineguy
Part of being a good driver is knowing when to back off; to "live" to fight another lap... when later your situation (tire wear, pit stop, traffic), or skill may allow to get back past the guy passing you.

Pretty funny for someone who appears to be a JPM fan to be saying!

[wawawa]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo

MS's one on DC was damn close, but those two survived.

Does anyone have a clip of this (USGP, 2000)? (I have one from MS's onboard - but you can't see how close they were from there)

Thanks!

[karlth]

Originally posted by Smooth
If JPM had properly caught that tow, he would have been around Ralf much more obviously than he was.

If you have a reply of the GP available you'll notice that Montoya was on Ralf's gearbox immediately out of the last corner before the straight.

Outbraking Ralf is a tough proposition anyway, JPM should know that.

True but considering Ralf was doing 300kph+ and sliding into a tight corner on the tattered remains of hundreds of Michelin and Bridgestone tyres he should have braked a bit earlier don't you think?

I think they both screwed the pooch: JPM was being too aggressive

Too aggressive? Do you mean by trying to overtake? Turn 1 is the overtaking spot at Indy and he was as far ahead of Ralf as he could possibly be with the same car. He had the corner and it is not Juan's fault that Ralf went so deep.

Thank god someone is trying to overtake.

Once Ralf got on the kerb, there wasn't much else that could have happened.

Ralf shouldn't have been there in the first place, it seems pretty obvious that he should have braked way earlier.

I think though the question Williams should ask Ralf is why he doesn't drive like that against Michael.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Smooth
Once Ralf got on the kerb, there wasn't much else that could have happened.

Ralf was already in trouble before he even was anywhere near the kerbs. just look at his opposite steering, and how he's already slipping and sliding to the inevitable doom before he even reached the kerbs.

[Rediscoveryx]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the similarities to the first corner at Monza (albeit with reversed roles). In both cases the drivers were pretty much side by side, the guy on the outside slightly ahead:

Inside line
Montoya at Monza - Breaks very late, in fact running out onto the left side, even as far as off the track, thereby squeezing Ralf out of the way. "Move or your out of the race"

Ralf at Indy - Instead of adopting Montoya's tactics, Ralf tries to make the corner on the inside despite having too much entry speed. This forces him to brake and turn in the same time, causing his spin.

Outside line
Montoya at Indy - Turns in pretty much as normal, thus giving Ralf the option of "Moving out of the way or out of the race"

Ralf at Monza - As Montoya brakes very late, Ralf chooses to run wide on to the grass rather than turn in Montoya.

Conclusion:
If Montoya had faced Montoya, he would have crashed out on both events.
Ralf is possibly a bit too nice to Montoya

I'm still prone to give Ralf more blame than Juan in the Indy-accident, given that Montoya has occupied the racing line, Ralf should have braked earlier. I'd still like to portion the blame something like 60-40 to Ralf. Montoya is not an innocent victim, as he really could have followed Ralf's example from Monza and give his teammate more room.

[orange]

Originally posted by Texas
I think as an impartial McLaren fan, both sides are missing the point. Why is JPM making a move on his teammate unless he knows for sure that he has room to let both cars through. On the flipside, why does Ralf show balls going into a corner only when facing his teammate. If that had been Michael, I can almost guarentee that Ralf would of let up. I admire the way the teams other than Ferrari let their drivers race, but the first considration should be to let both cars finish the race. I think Montoya was a bit too impatient when making this move and Ralf should of braked sooner since he was forced to take the inside line. If he had he probably would of been able to retake the position by turn 3 with a different line and JPM having to scrub off more speed to make the corner.

Valid judgement.
Team-mates should never be in the situation where they can take each other out.

[George Bailey]

One thing I think the pictures make absolutely clear is that when JPM says he's leaving you plenty of room he means there's space on the track for two of your wheels.

[pfa]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Here are some good pictures of this incident posted by Todd:

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-38.html

Frame 1: JPM is maybe 1 meter ahead and starts closing the door on Ralf. JPM is not far enough ahead at this point to have a claim on the corner. He forces Ralf to turn in early and take an tighter line. Anyone who has any racing experience whatsoever knows this was a boneheaded move on JPM's behalf.

JPM is turning in very late on the extreme limit of the racing line (as shown by the tyre marks) look at where Trulli is turning in, much earlier than JPM. Where Ralf is aiming to turn in, I dont know but it seems he is aiming for turn four of the Indy Oval. So JPM is not forcing Ralf to do anything he is turning in as late as possible in order to make the corner.

Frame 2: Montoya is basically turning into Ralf and causes them to collide. This unsettles both cars to some extent. JPM makes contact with Ralf BEFORE the curbs.

Collide???? Contact???? where do you see this in this foto. This foto is taken looking down the straight and the distance between the two cars cant be apreciated by this perspective. From other videos it can be seen that there is lots of air between them.

Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

Colombian sh!t is just as good (or bad) as German or anyother sh!t. Both smell, are dark brown in colour and tend to float.

Frame 4: Ralf is in a spin and there's no turning back.

In fact that is what a spin is: turning back all the way arround.

Frames 5 and on: Ralf loses his wing and with it any chances for a decent race. JPM is very lucky to have gotten away without any damage. Williams goes on to a 4th/16th place finish instead of what could have easily been a 3rd/4th place finish. Thanks JPM!

Yes, thanks to JPM Williams got 3 points. Because Ralf was copletely unable to contribute.

[BMW FW22]

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-42.html

this pic shows all./...

[Smooth]

If you have a reply of the GP available you'll notice that Montoya was on Ralf's gearbox immediately out of the last corner before the straight.

So? Ralf got a pretty good drive, and JPM didn't get enough tow to get cleanly by.

True but considering Ralf was doing 300kph+ and sliding into a tight corner on the tattered remains of hundreds of Michelin and Bridgestone tyres he should have braked a bit earlier don't you think?

Uhm, it was too early in the race for there to be many marbles laying about. I sat 500 yards from that spot and watched the sweeper trucks an hour before the race. There wasn't that much debris to be worried about.

Too aggressive? Do you mean by trying to overtake? Turn 1 is the overtaking spot at Indy and he was as far ahead of Ralf as he could possibly be with the same car. He had the corner and it is not Juan's fault that Ralf went so deep.

Your tune after Monza was praising Ralf? I assume by that logic.

Thank god someone is trying to overtake.

I agree, but overtaking at that corner has been better demonstrated. Witness Schumacher on coulthard in 2000, JPM in a classic drafting move on MS last year. This one wasn't pretty by any stretch.

Once Ralf got on the kerb, there wasn't much else that could have happened.

Ralf shouldn't have been there in the first place, it seems pretty obvious that he should have braked way earlier.

He should have braked earlier? Why? Because JPM pushed him wide? Right.

I think though the question Williams should ask Ralf is why he doesn't drive like that against Michael.

Maybe, but I am sure Williams is a bit more worried about their own drivers trying to lose the race in the first couple of laps trying to out-ego each other. MS is out of reach this year, so there is little chance for much fight.

[nagi]

Originally posted by Smooth


Pretty funny for someone who appears to be a JPM fan to be saying!

Smooth, you took the words right out of my mouth

[SmercH]

I'm basically looking at the third picture in that frame. I understand about the telephoto lens. But here I see Ralf with about half his car on the curb and it looks as if JPM is directly beside him, i.e. there wasn't any room for Ralf to be off the curbs.

Look at the shadows of front wings. Between them are a place for another lenght of front wing's shadow. That means that Ralf had almost car width between him and HPM. OK, the width of front wing is smaller than width of the car because of tyres, but anyway - Ralf had place. While we see cars side by side because of lens, actualy in this frame there is at least half car width between both Williamses.

[da Silva]

I can´t see were the problem is???
Look at the second picture, ralf is already sliding his car. His wheels are pointing at JPMs direction before hiting any curbs.
The rest is history.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Smooth
So? Ralf got a pretty good drive, and JPM didn't get enough tow to get cleanly by.
This was the tow. Either the move was made now or not at all and based on the fact that he was ahead and on the racing line into the corner why shouldn't he have gone for the move?

Uhm, it was too early in the race for there to be many marbles laying about. I sat 500 yards from that spot and watched the sweeper trucks an hour before the race. There wasn't that much debris to be worried about.
I assumed there had been marbles, hadn't looked close enough at the tarmac. My mistake.

It does not though change the fact that Montoya was on the rubbered racing line. Ralf had dramatically less grip than Juan going into the corner.

Your tune after Monza was praising Ralf? I assume by that logic.
I saw nothing wrong with Ralf's start at Monza. The problem is that Ralf seems to run out of talent a bit quicker than Juan.

I agree, but overtaking at that corner has been better demonstrated. Witness Schumacher on coulthard in 2000, JPM in a classic drafting move on MS last year. This one wasn't pretty by any stretch.
Remember they have exactly the same car and engine. A combination that Ferrari says makes overtaking impossible. Do you remember the last time something like this happened with teammates on equal strategy and with equal tyre wear?

He should have braked earlier? Why? Because JPM pushed him wide? Right.
Montoya pushed him wide? How on earth is that supposed to have happened without Montoya having been much faster down the straight. Ralf was ahead onto the straight and yet Montoya was ahead into the corner. Going ahead into the corner Juan is supposed to have yielded? This was Ralf's decision. What was he doing that deep into the corner?

Maybe, but I am sure Williams is a bit more worried about their own drivers trying to lose the race in the first couple of laps trying to out-ego each other. MS is out of reach this year, so there is little chance for much fight.
Would Michael have surrendered that corner against his teammate? Why should Montoya have done any less? Remember that the last time this happened to Michael against a teammate he crashed his car and broke his leg.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Smooth


Pretty funny for someone who appears to be a JPM fan to be saying!

Not at all... I was looking at this incident only. I did not, and will not, claim that JPM has never shown the same lack of judgement. That I may be a fan of someone does not mean I'm incapable of seeing them as less than perfect. To pass in F1 a driver must get very close to that fine line between "WOW! what a pass!" and "GEEZ! what an idiot!". JPM is willing to go there, with mostly good results. In this case, I think the evidence is that RS was, at the moment he had to make a decision, unwilling to see JPM credited with a WOW, and in doing so earned himself a GEEZ.

[tania_walesuk]

wether Ralf lost it through JPM touching him or not JPM is the reason why Ralf lost it. wether it be he tried to make ralf nervous and ralf lost it or wether JPM touched him but he certainly was making Ralf go off one way or another.... why JPM has to do this is beyond my way thinking. they were racing is the main thing which in that montoya was desperate to get in first and he does not care what he has to do to get there simple really, i cant wait for him to settle in a few years and show true talent, im sure he has got some or why else is he in the sport ?.

[mohrgan]

Originally posted by da Silva
I can´t see were the problem is???
Look at the second picture, ralf is already sliding his car. His wheels are pointing at JPMs direction before hiting any curbs.
The rest is history.

You are mistaken. In the following picture he is beginning to slide. Look where RS' car is. It is over the curbing.

http://www.schlegelm...jp/0216-40.html

[karlth]

Originally posted by tania_walesuk
wether Ralf lost it through JPM touching him or not JPM is the reason why Ralf lost it.

He didn't.

wether it be he tried to make ralf nervous and ralf lost it



.... why JPM has to do this is beyond my way thinking. they were racing is the main thing which in that montoya was desperate to get in first

It is called overtaking.

i cant wait for him to settle in a few years and show true talent

I'm sure you do.

[MuMu]

Originally posted by tania_walesuk
why JPM has to do this is beyond my way thinking. they were racing is the main thing

I think you answered yorself there - it's racing. If Ralf gets nervous when somebody overtakes him, he should get out of the kitchen, simple as that.

[chrislonie]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the similarities to the first corner at Monza (albeit with reversed roles). In both cases the drivers were pretty much side by side, the guy on the outside slightly ahead:

Inside line
Montoya at Monza - Breaks very late, in fact running out onto the left side, even as far as off the track, thereby squeezing Ralf out of the way. "Move or your out of the race"

Ralf at Indy - Instead of adopting Montoya's tactics, Ralf tries to make the corner on the inside despite having too much entry speed. This forces him to brake and turn in the same time, causing his spin.

Outside line
Montoya at Indy - Turns in pretty much as normal, thus giving Ralf the option of "Moving out of the way or out of the race"

Ralf at Monza - As Montoya brakes very late, Ralf chooses to run wide on to the grass rather than turn in Montoya.

Conclusion:
If Montoya had faced Montoya, he would have crashed out on both events.
Ralf is possibly a bit too nice to Montoya

I'm still prone to give Ralf more blame than Juan in the Indy-accident, given that Montoya has occupied the racing line, Ralf should have braked earlier. I'd still like to portion the blame something like 60-40 to Ralf. Montoya is not an innocent victim, as he really could have followed Ralf's example from Monza and give his teammate more room.

As I have said before, Montoya's move on Ralf was the exact same move that Michael Schumacher pulled on Montoya last year. They both made it through OK last year so I think it was fair for Montoya to figure that he and Ralf would make it through OK. I think Montoya vs. Montoya would not result in a wreck.