136 replies to this topic

[Velocifer]

Originally posted by dan2k


As someone posted, Ralf was alreading losing the back end of his car before he even touch the kerbs.
As someone posted Ralf touched the kerbs and spun

Montoya braked even later then Ralf, and just made it.
He never would have made the corner, even for Ralf's nudge

Martin (itv-f1 commentator) and Mika (commentating for Finnish F1), both former F1 drivers said it was completly Ralfs fault.
And he was at fault cause he shouldn't have let himself be pushed and he should have braked earlier to see Montoya sailing onto the grass

I rather believe them, then some ignorant Monotoya bashers.
Who's the basher really?!

Ralf was expecting all the road, hes a stupid man.
.......

Just look at when Montoya and Kimi go wheel to wheel, they are clean and precise, because they are both talented enough to do this without hitting each other.
They just go off the road?
And Kimi will as Ralf have had enough of playing nice with the Colombian, just watch.

Montoya will learn that you cant race hard cm apart with Ralf, hes not talented enough, and cant be trusted.
Reeaallly? No bashing here I see. What about Ralf's outside pass of Montoya at Nurburgring then?

Ralf will learn that he needs to stop concentrating on beating his team mate, and try and concentrate on beating Ferrari.
And so should Montoya. They should both learn from the McLaren how to be a co-ordinated effort, but this is Williams isn't it? -Land of the 'tough' guys?

-Good entertainment though..

[Bart]

Great picture, RCook. You could drive a bus through the gap that Juan left Ralf. Ralf misjudged his line and lost it going over the kerbing. It's a carbon copy of JPM hitting DC at the Nuerburgring. I can't believe this discussion is still going on...

[Alien]

I think Montoya´s passing attempt was clean, and Ralf had lots of room. Ralf lost it but i don´t blame him. I´m sure he was trying his best to keep the position, he just made a smal mistake. This photographs just don´t let us measure the distance between the cars, but from what i saw in the infield camera it was huge.

But the thing is, i don´t know why people make such a big deal out of this. Montoya and Ralf where racing, Ralf lost it under pressure but that is what racing is about. Sorry but i´m getting tired of the lame, racing for points, lap around in loneliness, bullsh*t that some people are preaching on this bb. It just doesn´t make sense to me anymore, especially when the season is boring as hell as it is this year.

[Velocifer]

Originally posted by padovani
If you and I are fighting for a position, I have the inside line, and I decide that I just won't brake before the corner, you can be sure that I'll be way ahead of you when it is time to turn. Does that mean that gives me "the rights" to take the preferential line to the corner? Hell no, that means that I have no chance to make it to the end of the corner and I'll hit and take off the track whatever is on the outside of my car.

I''s called a 'Sato' and that's not what happened here.
At no point was Montoya sufficiently in front to claim the corner, and I think if we agree on anything here it is that Juan would have shut the line much sooner had he been.

With the kind of slipstream Juan got from Ralf that is no way that Ralf should be side by side at this point on the straight. Ralf simply braked waaaay too late and in an incompatible place with his line, and this is the cause of the accident.

My whole point is that Montoya failed to follow Ralf for a good tow and that is why they were neck and neck coming in to the corner which you can clearly see on the video. They both braked waay too late like you say and both should be blamed for that.

The accident could have been avoided however and that's where I apportion the responsibility on Montoya as he was the one squeezing his teammate on 'cold' tyres. Especially so after hearing him preaching that one shouldn't compromise ones teammates.

If Ralf wants to go wheel-to-wheel with JPB he should watch some Kimi tape and learn how to do it properly

So should Michael then, because he also seem to 'loose' his skill when battling with Montoya. ..ahem..
Kimi will soon loose his respect and realize like the others that the only way to stop the Montoya squeeze is to hold is line, even if it means crashing..

Remember, Montoya is still establishing himself and can afford the odd DNF to 'teach' the others.

[Clone]

Originally posted by Keelan
I think Ralf made a good move. Even if it is his fault that the two cars crashed, I would bet that JPM won't try and pass Ralf like that again in the future. Ralf made a statement in the race and I'm sure JPM heard it loud and clear.

Good thinking - nice move Ralf. Costly but worthwhile in a strange way.

Of course, that doesn't escape the fact that both drivers missed their braking points and would've run out of road.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Velocifer
If the pictures posted in this thread prove anything it is that he was not ahead. In all reality you can't expect the right to a corner being just 30-50 cm in front

You can't expect the right to a corner being 30-50 behind on the dirty side of the track.

It is called being side by side and that usually calls for each to hold his line. Montoya vainly and too fast went in to take the apex as if by right and that was the root cause of the accident and is where blame must be put, if any.

Montoya didn't hold his line (while he was on the racing line, and Ralf was on the dirty stuff) and actually gave Ralf just enough room to survive. Of course he's squeezing Ralf into a tough spot, Ralf choked, his bad. Anyone who watched the exciting JPM Kimi battles will easily recognize the similarities. Maybe Ralf can learn something from the Finish youngster.

So everyone who believed Montoya saying that teammates shouldn't race each other (Nurb-Monza) should have their heads examined??

Yes.

At least those that actually watched all previous races where Montoya was fighting for position. Maybe I missed something, but I have yet to witness JPM giving up a position without a desperate fight. That IS what makes JPM a fun to watch, you know that no matter what, he's not just gonna give up and go belly up just like that. He might go down, but if he goes, it's down in flames. I kinda like that. Michael used to have that attitude before he got the easy alternative.

To me it's clear that it's the encounter with the curbs that causes the actual spin.

No problem, I can clearly see you are beyond reason. Don't let the arguments here cloud your vision.

[pRy]

Forget the crash itself. Look at the circumstances.

Montoya qualified ahead of Ralf. Montoya, for some reason, made a bad start, Ralf passed him at the start. Montoya was on it and on more than one occassion got right up to the rear of Ralfs car, he even locked up at one corner because he got so close.

Coming onto the oval corner, Montoya lined himself up. Now Ralf had the possition so he should have remained on the racing line near the wall. Some how he ended up on the other side, so either Montoya passed him and Ralf was having a go at re-passing Montoya, or something else.

Either way, Montoya clearly is in no mood to hang around behind Ralf anymore. Was Montoya on a lighter fuel load?

[tinman]

My whole point is that Montoya failed to follow Ralf for a good tow and that is why they were neck and neck coming in to the corner which you can clearly see on the video. They both braked waay too late like you say and both should be blamed for that.

The accident could have been avoided however and that's where I apportion the responsibility on Montoya as he was the one squeezing his teammate on 'cold' tyres. Especially so after hearing him preaching that one shouldn't compromise ones teammates

For me, this is enough. I don't know about the others.;)

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by pRy
Either way, Montoya clearly is in no mood to hang around behind Ralf anymore. Was Montoya on a lighter fuel load?

Nope, he was on the exact same strategy as DC, planned to stop once on lap 42. (He got in 10 laps early misreading the pit board).

Ralf was also on a one stop strategy (Lap 43).

[TAB666]

Originally posted by karlth
Originally posted by maclaren
In general racing rules if JPM (outside) was only slightly in front of Ralf then both are guilty!

The outside is the racing line into turn 1. Montoya was on the racing line and ahead, it was his corner.

This is kinda fun. At monza Monty braked to late while trying to get first into the right corner, he was on the inside and Ralf on the outside ( racing line ). Rs could have turned in and that would have made a crasch between the 2 of them ..... but he didnt and whent over the gras.
Maybe Monty should do like this sometimes and not always think the driver on the inside will make the corner. Im not saying it was Montys fault ... but he should know that the driver that "dives" into the corner often get of line. He could also think about the brazil 01 thingy .... Monty on the inside braking late and almost going of track and almost forcing MS of track. OR we could go for A1 01 for the same thing.
It seams like Monty expects people to make him room for errors wwhen on the inside but he doesnt give room for that himself when he is on the outside.

[wawawa]

I can't believe we're still arguing about this - actually, I can

Anyway, if Ralf felt Montoya had hit him, he would have said so by now, surely. Instead, the only reaction of his that I have read is, "I need to see the replay" or something like that. Doing a Scudetto ( ), that sounds like "I need to see the replay before I come up with an excuse".

Originally posted by wawawa
Montoya did not hit Ralf.

Proof: If he did, Ralf would have said so.

Q.E.D.

[Velocifer]

*Sigh*
-Take a look at the video again. At the last turn before the straight Montoya goes for the inside but sees Ralf taking it for himself. Montoya then abandons it and goes back to the outside. Because of this, the momentum he had gained before that is lost, and they go more or less side by side down the straight. Those who snuff at this might try to explain how come Trulli was right behind JPM at the end of the straight if he had such good speed..

Neither had the right to the corner and both should therefore have held their lines. Montoya didn't - he went to take Ralf's and he shoudn't have. It's like JPM/MS at Sepang: Just because it was MS who hit Montoya, the stewards made it clear that it was JPM's fault nevertheless. If you are side by side, respect must be given to the competitor's line or as the rule says:

"deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited"

(Sporting Regulations Appendix L - CHAPTER IV - Art. 2)

Montoya did another of his infamous do-or-die manouvres (that Sir Frank loves because it reminds him of Mansell) and squeezed Ralf to be the cause of Ralf's spin. If you think he spun before the curbs, that's fine - it can't be proven either way. Fact remains that Ralf went over the curbs and he would never have gone there if Montoya had given him enough room, come on.

Ralf made a mistake and braked too late but so did Montoya; they both screwed up. But if blame is to be put on the accident itself, it must be Montoya for 'crowding'. How it can be put on Ralf is beyond me..

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Velocifer
Just because it was MS who hit Montoya, the stewards made it clear that it was JPM's fault nevertheless.

Only because they were stupid.

That ruling refers to crowding or any other abnormal change of direction. Not taking the racing line which is a normal change of direction. So Schumi M's move at Jerez 97 - an abnormal change of direction which crowded out Jacques - would be banned, but Senna shutting the door on Mansell resulting in both going out at Portugal 89 would be OK; taking the line is not an abnormal change of direction. Otherwise drivers could not take corners at all if someone was trying to pass them.

Re RS: Montoya was on the racing line and would probably have made the corner without Ralf's nudge. Ralf's line would have taken him to Ohio, JPM was not taking his line.

[Velocifer]

The Jerez thing was the "other abnormal change of direction" the Sepang thing was "the deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve" - simple as that.

There is no mention of the 'racing line', only 'crowding'

These are the Sporting Regulations after all and I think we all get the emphasis is on the sporting. Crowding or squeezing is not sporting and especially not between teammates, don't you think?

[ensign14]

The regs specifically state 'other', thus implying that the 'crowding' being covered is an abnormal directional change as well as a sharp chop. I assume for this 'crowding' means, if you're inside a driver but on the racing line, you do not veer outside gradually and off the racing line, leaning the driver on the outside is forced onto the grass. The racing line bit is because drivers must be expected to take the racing line into a corner - this would be a normal change of direction.

I don't see what's wrong with crowding if you're defending the racing line - I don't think you should be forced to give way if someone's trying a speculative move unless you particulaly want to. Arguably it's not even crowding, it's the overtaking chap cocking it up.

And the emphasis may be on the 'sporting' in the regs, but I bet they were drafted by lawyers...

[berge]

just to weed out the hypocrites,

who here was calling for Montoya's head after Austria 01, and is now putting some of the blame on Montoya again for Indy 02?

[Velocifer]

Who was it that only last race wanted Ralf's head for trying a bone move on the outside but the one who does the exact same first thing out??

Talk about hypocrites..

[berge]

who was it? I'm curious.

[George Bailey]

Originally posted by berge
just to weed out the hypocrites,

who here was calling for Montoya's head after Austria 01, and is now putting some of the blame on Montoya again for Indy 02?

Apples and oranges because Austria 01 had a much faster MS getting blocked for several corners by JPM before JPM went flying off the track. I was one of the people unhappy with JPM that day because MS was clearly in a much faster car and JPM made his Williams wider than it was to try and repeatedly block. If MS had gotten along side JPM and they both tried to outbreak each other into a single turn it would have been a much less premeditated incident - like USA 2002.

[Velocifer]

Originally posted by ensign14
The regs specifically state 'other', thus implying that the 'crowding' being covered is an abnormal directional change

It is an abnormal directional change when it leads to someone being crowded, correct.

It means that in an overtaking situation, ample space must be given to each car. If a move liable to hinder the other competitor is made, it will be deemed an abnormal directional change and should be penalised.

What your normal racing line is, has nothing to do with it though.

I don't think you should be forced to give way if someone's trying a speculative move unless you particulaly want to.

Agreed. I would say that going for an outside pass is by all accounts a speculative move, wouldn't you?

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by Velocifer

I would say that going for an outside pass is by all accounts a speculative move, wouldn't you?

How can it have been an "outside pass" when JPM was already ahead and running on the racing line?
;)

[tifoso]

Wow! It's taken awhile to get here. IMHO, it doesn't matter who is most to blame for the accident. It could have been avoided by either. And they are teammates; they're not supposed to be taking each other out. So a pox on both of them.

Originally posted by SlateGray
perhaps he does not want favover one of his drivers over the other in the press.

He's never been shy about doing it before when he was mad at a driver for doing something he thought was boneheaded.

I want to thank everyone for pointing me to the Sutton images of the USGP. I've learned something very interesting about Villeneuve. He's doing some sort of hair restoration. He's a lot less bald this year than he has been in previous years. Check out 02usa146.jpg.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Velocifer
Originally posted by ensign14
The regs specifically state 'other', thus implying that the 'crowding' being covered is an abnormal directional change

It is an abnormal directional change when it leads to someone being crowded, correct.

It means that in an overtaking situation, ample space must be given to each car. If a move liable to hinder the other competitor is made, it will be deemed an abnormal directional change and should be penalised.

What your normal racing line is, has nothing to do with it though.

I don't think you should be forced to give way if someone's trying a speculative move unless you particulaly want to.

Agreed. I would say that going for an outside pass is by all accounts a speculative move, wouldn't you?

For that matter, going for an inside move is speculative.

Look, JPM you are being critical for JPM being over agressive against a teammate and yet you admit that when Ralf realized that JPM had a good run it was Ralf who decided to defend the postition to the max. So in this way ralf started playing hardball first, not JPM.

I was at the corner, JPM was almost half way by and there was enough room. IF RS was as smart as you think he is he should have let him go by and comback under him when JPM lost momentum on the other side of the corner.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Velocifer
It is an abnormal directional change when it leads to someone being crowded, correct.

It means that in an overtaking situation, ample space must be given to each car. If a move liable to hinder the other competitor is made, it will be deemed an abnormal directional change and should be penalised.

What your normal racing line is, has nothing to do with it though.

I disagree, the normal racing line is normal (heh) and if someone tries a speculative move and is crowded because someone else is taking the racing line, it is the chap or chapess trying the speculative move who is behaving 'abnormally'. As for giving enough room, and at the risk of (a) flaming and (b) going OT, where does the Schumi chop come in?

But as I mentioned earlier, JPM was on the racing line. Still no-one in motorsport has criticized JPM but many have had a go at Schumi R.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by ensign14
Still no-one in motorsport has criticized JPM but many have had a go at Schumi R.

Which as someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I find interesting. Ralf seems to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Firstly, he's taken to task for not being aggressive. He decides to aggressively defend his position, and the forum takes him to task. Montoya, seems to get a free pass for being aggressive. It's Montoya making a move. You know he's hard-nosed, you better let him buy.

I still come down on the unpopular side of this argument. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who was at fault. The incident could have been avoided by either driver. They are on the same team. They're not supposed to take one or the other out -- no matter who was more at fault. Simply stupid.

[ensign14]

But Ralf only seems to be aggressive with his TEAM-MATES - he took Fisichella out more than once when at Jordan, IIRC. There is a happy medium; JPM is marginally on the slightly too speculative side, RS is all over the place.

[Velocifer]

AyePirate: I think you are the only one who doesn't think of this as a an overtaking situation! Everyone else saw it as racing and that's where an outside pass is the one attempted round the longest part of the curve!;)

Originally posted by jimm
Look, you are being critical for JPM being over agressive against a teammate and yet you admit that when Ralf realized that JPM had a good run it was Ralf who decided to defend the postition to the max. So in this way ralf started playing hardball first, not JPM.

We all want racing; that's what the people want. Who initiates the move is completely irrelevant. What we want is a modicum of sporting and fair play and we especially want to see it happen between teammates. Squeezing or crowding is something I could do without.

Montoya has since his entry into the sport and through a long list of incidents shown that he is in the habit of taking himself or others off when duelling and after being humiliatingly passed on the outside by Ralf at Nurburgring has clearly decided to extend his MO even to his teammate.

Ensign14: There is no defined 'racing line'. When you are circulating alone you can use the whole width of the track, but in an overtaking situation you are obliged to take a line which will not hinder your competitor regardless of what the ideal line is (which I take is what you mean by 'racing line')

[tifoso]

Originally posted by ensign14
But Ralf only seems to be aggressive with his TEAM-MATES

Perhaps, he reads this forum and is trying to please everyone and made a hash of it.;)

Seriously, IIRC, he took his brother out at least once. So not just teammates.

[MuMu]

Originally posted by Velocifer
he is in the habit of taking himself or others off when duelling and after being humiliatingly passed on the outside by Ralf at Nurburgring has clearly decided to extend his MO even to his teammate.

Replace 'Ralf' with 'Juan' and 'Nurburgring' with 'Indy' and what have we?

[polaris]

in my view they are both classic dickheads, with a whole race ahead of them they need to decide it on the first lap. If RS could take this approach against other drivers (eg his brother, he might be somewhere now. JPM still hasn't found where the limit is. crap!! These guys are letting the rest of the team down. There are plenty of other drivers as good as these

[tania_walesuk]

Originally posted by MuMu


Replace 'Ralf' with 'Juan' and 'Nurburgring' with 'Indy' and what have we?

Total catastrophy....

[ensign14]

Originally posted by tifoso
Seriously, IIRC, he took his brother out at least once. So not just teammates.

But wasn't this a by-product of taking out team-mate Fisichella?

[Inness]

Originally posted by polaris
in my view they are both classic dickheads, with a whole race ahead of them they need to decide it on the first lap. If RS could take this approach against other drivers (eg his brother, he might be somewhere now. JPM still hasn't found where the limit is. crap!! These guys are letting the rest of the team down. There are plenty of other drivers as good as these

The problem with RS he is content to hold station until the PERFECT opportunity to overtake arises. I was at the race and saw RS content to be behind the backmarkers for an eternity, I guess he was waiting for them to pit stops to make his move.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by ensign14
But wasn't this a by-product of taking out team-mate Fisichella?

You're probably right about that particular incident. But when Ralf entered F1, he was considered a wild man. Now that he drives with his big head rather than his little head, he gets grief for being too cautious. Like I said before, he can't win with this crowd. If Montoya starts driving with his "other head," I wonder how he'll be treated?

[dortiz]

Originally posted by BMWMPower
Frame 3: JPM forces Ralf over the curb and further unsettles Ralf's car, thus causing it to start to spin. Keep in mind, the real cause of this spin was not the contact with the curb, but rather the contact between the cars when JPM closed the door on Ralf. Any of you who say JPM gave Ralf plenty of room must be smoking some really good Colombian sh!t...

Dear BMWpower: say whatever you want, but please do not put "Colombia" in the middle to justify the opinions of others. Just be respectful even if that's not your style. Cheers - Daniel

[berge]

http://www.pitpass.c...cfm?newsid=3701


Patrick Head looking back at the second lap clash at Indianapolis between Juan Pablo Montoya and Ralf Schumacher.
"Looking at it, Juan Pablo left Ralf plenty of room. But Ralf got a wheel on the grass and lost the car.


That Patrick, always favouring Montoya over poor, defenseless Ralf.

[VAR1016]

Originally posted by dortiz


Dear BMWpower: say whatever you want, but please do not put "Colombia" in the middle to justify the opinions of others. Just be respectful even if that's not your style. Cheers - Daniel

What does this mean?

Is it more ghastly "political correctness"?

I hope not

PdeRl