62 replies to this topic

[dmj]

To add about that Cisitalia project, a wooden mould for its body (original, I believe) is preserved and can be viewed in Porsche museum in Gmund, Austria, birthplace of Porsche factory.

[917]

dmj,

Merano (German name Meran) is in Südtirol (Southern Tyrolia) which became part of Italy after the first World War. Until 1918 it was part of Austria, and the northern half of Tirol still belongs to Austria (one of the well known people from there is Gerhard Berger). Many people in Südtirol still have German as their first language.

The original Cisitalia Grand Prix car is shown in the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen. It was bought back by the factory in the late 1950s.

Regards
Michael

[Marcor]

old thread about Abarth: http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=42285

[karlcars]

There's in-depth discussion of the Porsche/Abarth/Hruska/Cisitalia relationship in my book 'Origin of the Species' about the early days of Porsche.

 

Interesting about the AU 'alphabet'. I hope to get more into this one day. Neither of the Silver Arrow outfits used any form of internal designation publicly in their heyday..

[D-Type]

There's in-depth discussion of the Porsche/Abarth/Hruska/Cisitalia relationship in my book 'Origin of the Species' about the early days of Porsche.

 

Interesting about the AU 'alphabet'. I hope to get more into this one day. Neither of the Silver Arrow outfits used any form of internal designation publicly in their heyday..

I understood that Mercedes-Benz used the W*** designations for car models - W25, W125, W154, W165 etc and M*** for engines  - most famously the M163.  But was that only internally and not publicly?

[DCapps]

1938 – Bretz, “BERND ROSEMEYER Ein Leben für den deutschen Sport” ----- no alpha designation
1938 – Bretz, “Mannschaft und Meisterschaft, Eine Bilanz der Grand-Prix-Formel 1934-1937” ----- no alpha designation
1938 – Monkhouse, “Motor Racing with Mercedes-Benz” ----- no alpha designation
1947 – Jenkinson, “’Motor Sport’ Racing Car Review” ----- 3-litre 1938 AutoUnion, no alpha designation
1948 – Monkhouse, “Motor Racing with Mercedes-Benz” ----- no alpha designation
1949 – Pomeroy, “The Grand Prix Car” ----- Type A, B, C.
1950 – Molter &Wörner, “German Racing Cars and Drivers” ----- no alpha designation
1952 – Sebastian, “Hinter dröhnenden Motoren” ----- no alpha designation
1967 – Posthumus, “The 16-cylinder G.P. Auto Union” ----- Type A, B, C.
1969 – Ludvigsen, “The Auto Union Grand Prix Car” in Automobile Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 1 ----- Type A, B, C, D.
1979 – Cancellieri, DeAgostini, Schröder “AUTO UNION Die großen Rennen 1934-39” ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1980 – Knittel, AUTO UNION Grand Prix Wagen ----- Typ A, B, C, D, E.
1982 – Kirchberg, “GRAND-PRIX-REPORT Auto Union 1934-1939” ----- no alpha designation

 

Add to the listing: Cecil Clutton, Cyril Posthumus, and Denis Jenkinson, The Racing Car: Development & Design, London: B.T. Batsford, 1956. Types A, B, C, and D.

 

This appears to be another nice case of The Self-Licking Ice Cream Cone syndrome often found in auto racing history: Herr von Eberhorst attempts to make clear the evolution in the various designs of the Auto-Union cars fielded from 1934 to 1939 by using a very simplistic, easy-to-understand way to explain it all in general terms to an Interested Englishman, who then uses that method in a book, which, in turn, is then endlessly repeated and, therefore, becomes codified and sanctified without any regard to whatever the original nomenclature might have been.

 

Or, I would suggest, so it seems....

Edited by DCapps, 11 October 2016 - 00:27.

[ensign14]

I've got a copy of Grand Prix Report - Auto Union by Peter Kirchberg.  On the inside back cover is a list of the driver testing times for some of the young guns trying out for the team; Heydel (the fastest), von Delius, Scheeff, Hasse, Simons, Bigalke, Loof and Geiss, who only managed 2 laps of the Ring.

 

The test was done in November 1935, and on the table is a key to the table.  Including:

 

"schnellener Maschine Type C"

 

The Type C bit is curiously fainter, but it seems to have been done on the same typewriter, as it's all on the same line.  Maybe a different colour?  The repro is black and white.

[ensign14]

^ should be Gaiss, not Geiss - have to confess never heard of him or Scheeff, who was not taken on despite being faster than Hasse.  The times incidentally were generally quite similar. 

[Vitesse2]

Geiss is actually the correct spelling - he was a DKW motorcycle racer. Herr Scheeff is a bit of a mystery though - possibly a works employee. Maybe coincidence, but there is actually a Fiat dealer today in Zwickau called Autohaus Scheeff.

[Roger Clark]

It may be interesting (along the lines of the dog that didn't bark) that Cameron Earl didn't mention Auto-Union type numbers, despite extensive discussion with Professor Eberan and others. He did use Mercedes type numbers, often erroneously, despite extensive discussion with Rudolph Uhlenhaut and others.

[DCapps]

It may be interesting (along the lines of the dog that didn't bark) that Cameron Earl didn't mention Auto-Union type numbers, despite extensive discussion with Professor Eberan and others. He did use Mercedes type numbers, often erroneously, despite extensive discussion with Rudolph Uhlenhaut and others.

 

I could suggest that there might be something of a pattern here, but that would also suggest other issues relating to the acquisition of this information.

[Henk Vasmel]

I've got a copy of Grand Prix Report - Auto Union by Peter Kirchberg.  On the inside back cover is a list of the driver testing times for some of the young guns trying out for the team; Heydel (the fastest), von Delius, Scheeff, Hasse, Simons, Bigalke, Loof and Geiss, who only managed 2 laps of the Ring.

 

The test was done in November 1935, and on the table is a key to the table.  Including:

 

"schnellener Maschine Type C"

 

The Type C bit is curiously fainter, but it seems to have been done on the same typewriter, as it's all on the same line.  Maybe a different colour?  The repro is black and white.

 

Unlikely that it was done in period. In German, it would have been Typ C, without the "e". And before the war, Germans were not so much influenced by the now ubiquitous English spelling.

[ReWind]

Unlikely that it was done in period. In German, it would have been Typ C, without the "e".

 

Not necessarily so.

In German there is "der Typ" (masculine) but also "die Type" (feminine).