10 replies to this topic

[Math Soucy]

After reading a spirited IRL/CART debate on an earlier thread, a burning question I've long wanted an explanation to was raised, but never answered.
I don't follow enough IRL or CART races to have learned the official rule, but during the IRL race in Chicago, drivers who were a lap down mysteriously got their laps back during a caution period. I understand the NASCAR "race to the flag" situation where sometimes a lapped car will pass the leader when the caution is thrown, but before the start-finish line. In the IRL race, it did not appear that any of these lapped drivers ever managed to pass the leader on the track. So do IRL rules allow every car a lap or more down to make up 1 lap during a caution period? Is this the same rule in CART? Can a driver theoretically win a race by completing fewer laps?? Thanks for your help.

[Ross Stonefeld]

There was apparently a dubious call in the IRL race but the general understanding in racnig these days is that the leader will be the first car to take the restart. So if the leader is about to lap 19th and 20th on the back straight when the yellow comes out, and the safety car is deployed and the order is Safety Car>19th>20th>leader>21st>2nd>3rd they will let 19th and 20th go around the safety car to the tail end of the field in effect getting their lap back and then the order will be Safety car>1st>21st>2nd>3rd

[KenC]

You raise an interesting point, as the very last race of the season had this very scenario affect the outcome of the championship. At the last round of pitstops, Hornish whose higher horsepower engine, (according to RaceTech there's a 25hp diff between last year's Chevy and this year's), burns a little more fuel, stopped early. Any time you stop under green you lose a lap. On a small oval you can lose two laps! Anyhow, after Hornish's stop, someone crashes, and the track goes yellow. Under normal circumstances, Hornish's race would have been ruined, as he would have been stuck a lap down. This is why teams try to maximize their fuel window, in order to avoid getting caught out by yellows.

So, as the leaders pit to refuel under yellow, Hornish gets waved around the pacecar to rejoin at the tailend of the queue. Essentially saving him nearly a full lap. Without that rule, Hornish would never have been in the battle for the race win, nor would he have won the championship. Boy was he glad that rule was changed!

In previous years, the IRL has tried other ways to get the leaders to the front of the queue, including having lead lap cars come to the front, forcing the lapped cars, not around, but back. Under those rules, lapped cars, had virtually no chance of ever making up their laps.

Interestingly, usually there is a car on an alternative fuel strategy, that might have picked up the lead, and prevented Hornish or other cars from going around the safety car. This is more likely true at Indy where the fields are bigger, the race is longer and more cars are out of pit sequence.

One side note that the IRL needs to address is the odd situation when tracks go yellow. At Indy this year, I noticed at the first crash, yellow, that several cars were able to duck into the pits. Typically, as soon as the track goes yellow, the pits close. In this case, after the crash, I saw Hornish get into the pits and get service. Another car, like Hornish got into the pits, and didn't get service as they thought they would be penalized for servicing under a closed pit. Of course, Hornish got no penalty. I suppose this is part of the whole yellow caution timing problem that was so evident at the race finish.

[metz]

Gee, You learn something new every day..
I always thought the IRL made up the rules as they go along.;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

My understanding was that after the pitstops cycled under yellow, Sam Hornish was behind the pace car, but a lap down, so him and the other cars were waved around until the first car behind the safety car was the leader

[Pioneer]

I prefer the way NASCAR does it with having double file restarts. Lead lap cars start on the outside in order of position and lapped cars start on the inside in order of their position. This ensures that the lead car is the first car in line without any silly arbitrary waving of cars past. Simultaneously, it gives the lapped cars a chance to get a lap back of things go their way.

[Math Soucy]

Thanks, Ross, for the clarification. And, I think with the Hornish pit at Indy, the IRL allows cars that have already entered the pit apron (maybe that's not the correct nomenclature) when a yellow flag is displayed to continue on to their pits for service, but remains closed for all other cars until the leader is picked up by the safety car and then the stewards open the pits for the remaining cars. I think that Hornish and another driver (maybe Scheckter??) had ducked down onto the pit entrance before they closed the pits, but I'm often wrong on these things.

[DEVO]

I prefer how F1 does... they pretty much minimize the case for a full course yellow. That way, there is no misunderstanging of where you stand.

[KenC]

Originally posted by Math Soucy
Thanks, Ross, for the clarification. And, I think with the Hornish pit at Indy, the IRL allows cars that have already entered the pit apron (maybe that's not the correct nomenclature) when a yellow flag is displayed to continue on to their pits for service, but remains closed for all other cars until the leader is picked up by the safety car and then the stewards open the pits for the remaining cars. I think that Hornish and another driver (maybe Scheckter??) had ducked down onto the pit entrance before they closed the pits, but I'm often wrong on these things.

No, you're correct, Hornish and a couple other drivers ducked in before the pit entrance was closed, however, if you watched the replay, you could clearly see that Hornish was behind the accident, when it came to a rest, and the track was clearly yellow. In theory, as soon as the track goes yellow, the pits are closed. Somehow, even though the track was yellow, and even though you can see Hornish is not on the apron or in pitlane, as he's dodging bits of debris, he's still able to make it into the pits. The problem is they use a signman to indicate an open or closed pit, and he's not exactly awake down there. One of the other drivers who made it into pitlane at the same time as Hornish, decided that they would get a penalty if they refuelled and continued thru pitlane. Clearly, a questionable call, but one that benefitted Hornish immensely. And, given the circumstances of the finish, it's not surprising that problems with the yellow procedure is seen elsewhere.

[Pioneer]

Well NASCAR doesn't have the option of minimizing full course cautions. That is just part of oval racing. 99% of accidents on a road course end up with wrecked cars off the track. So little need for safety car. 99% of accidents on ovals end up with wrecked cars ON the track. And typically uphill (as in up the banking) such that any leaking fluids are certain to trickle down onto the racing line.

This is just the way it is with oval racing and NASCAR does pretty well at it I think. Now CART road races... well lets just not go there ok?

[Mat]

Originally posted by Pioneer
I prefer the way NASCAR does it with having double file restarts. Lead lap cars start on the outside in order of position and lapped cars start on the inside in order of their position. This ensures that the lead car is the first car in line without any silly arbitrary waving of cars past. Simultaneously, it gives the lapped cars a chance to get a lap back of things go their way.

not 100% true. Lead lap cars do not necassarily restart in order of position.

For example, if a NASCAR field takes the yellow in order of 35th>1st>2nd>36th>4th>5th the 35th place driver will be waved through to join at the back of the field, and the rest form up behind the pace car. If then the 1st and 2nd position cars pit, this would put the 36th place car back on the lead lap. If the 36th place car does not decide to pit so as to stay on the lead lap, he will actually be the one to take the green flag in the order of 36th>1st>2nd>etc...