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Murray Walker on the Death of Ayrton Senna


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#1 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 13:33

Here is the link http://www.itv-f1.co...ray_story/13057

Or if the server is too slow like it is on mine and takes an age to upload the page and then says "page not found" here is the full article, i hope the Mods on this board dont mind me copying this up but i thought I'd share this with the rest of the people on the board


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The hardest thing I ever had to deal with was the most publicized and visible accident in the history of motor sport – the death of Ayrton Senna, which happened live on television in the homes of countless viewers all over the world. The 1994 San Marino Grand Prix meeting at Imola had already had grim happenings and at the start of the race on Sunday there was a collision that sent a wheel into the crowd and brought the safety car out to lead the drivers round at greatly reduced speed until the debris could be cleared. On lap seven the race resumed, with Senna’s Williams just ahead of Michael Schumacher’s Benetton, but as Ayrton took the Tamburello curve flat out he lost control. Even though a lot of speed was scrubbed off he slammed into the concrete wall at some 135mph. In previous years I had seen Michele Alboreto, Nelson Piquet and Gerhard Berger do the same thing at the same place and come to little harm – in Berger’s case, despite his being unconscious while his car caught fire – so my immediate reaction to Senna’s crash was one of excitement rather than horror. Wow, that’s a big one! was my first thought but it was immediately obvious that it was a lot more than that. The race was stopped as the medical staff, under the direction of Professor Sid Watkins, tried to save the stricken Senna’s life. The cameras of RAI, the Italian host broadcaster, stayed with the scene and I was getting some very disturbing pictures on my monitor but fortunately, for the very first time at a foreign Grand Prix, the BBC had its own camera unit and direction, so producer Mark Wilkin was able to show the British viewers something else. As the coverage continued I saw his pictures but was also still getting those from RAI. The greatest racing driver in the world was lying immobile and gravely injured beside the track. I had no way of knowing how serious his condition was although I was by now fearing the worst. What to do? I obviously had no justification for making reassuring statements like, ‘Don’t worry, I know it looks bad but I’ve seen things like this before at this very place where the drivers were OK – today’s cars are very strong and I’m sure Senna will be alright’; nor could I say ‘This is terrible. I fear from the body language of the medics around Senna that this is a potentially fatal accident’ because I didn’t know that it was and, anyway, it would have been unacceptably alarmist to say so.


For what seemed like hours the horrible scenes continued until a helicopter took the mortally wounded Brazilian to the hospital, where he died. A truly great man had met his maker and I honestly do not know how I found the right words to cope with it. It is not an experience I would like to repeat.


When I reported to the BBC at Silverstone for my first broadcast in 1949, Formula 1 did not yet exist and Grand Prix racing was still struggling to recover fully after an exhausting war. Alfa-Romeo and Maserati ruled the circuits, Ferrari had yet to win, there were only five major races and British cars and drivers were of no consequence. The cars had their engines in the front and the drivers wore thin cotton trousers, short-sleeved T-shirts and linen helmets. They had no safety belts and their cars were flimsy death traps; there were no barriers between them and the thousands of spectators lining the track and no gravel traps to slow them if they went off. The medical facilities were minimal

In those days, so soon after a World War that had taken literally millions of lives in appalling circumstances, attitudes towards death were very different. ‘Motor racing is dangerous. If they don’t like it they don’t have to do it. The throttle works both ways and if they can’t stand the heat they should get out of the kitchen.’ was the general view in the sport and several drivers were killed each season, with no great reaction except regret. In the mid-1960s, however, Jackie Stewart courageously championed a much-vilified crusade for greater safety which, together with changing public attitudes, gradually led to major improvements. Thanks mainly to the untiring efforts of Bernie Ecclestone, FIA President Max Mosley and FIA Chief Medical Officer Professor Sid Watkins, it’s all very different now, with safer circuits, safer cars, infinitely better medical facilities, fireproof clothing and greatly improved marshalling.

Ayrton Senna’s tragic death was the catalyst for even greater efforts to make Formula One safer with major changes to car construction and the regulations. I am sure they would have come anyway but the worldwide impact of the great Brazilian’s untimely demise undoubtedly hastened their introduction in a vigorous effort to avoid anti-motor racing legislation. Ironically Senna was a close personal friend of Sid Watkins who, as an individual, has undoubtedly done more than anyone else to make Formula 1 safer. The drivers do not dwell on the fact that their job could take their life. ‘It may happen to others but it won’t happen to me’ is the usual, if unrealistic, attitude. They never talk about it and, to be honest, I never raised the subject during interviews. It was just something one did not do. Everyone knew it could happen; everyone hoped it wouldn’t. Of course none of them would race if they thought they were going to be killed but the fact is that they could be and retirement from racing is often caused by the belief that the risks are no longer acceptable. That was certainly the case with James Hunt and I believe it was with Damon Hill too.

No one was more conscious of the hazards of the sport than Senna but he adopted a fatalistic attitude and just got on with it. Nevertheless, his concern for his fellow drivers in what is an extremely selfish and self-centred profession was unusual. During that fateful weekend at Imola, Ayrton visited his countryman Rubens Barrichello in hospital after his high-speed crash on the Friday and the following day, very much against the rules, commandeered a course car to get to the scene of Austrian driver Roland Ratzenberger’s fatal crash. He then unsuccessfully tried to get into the trackside Medical Centre at Imola – something he had succeeded in doing at Jerez in Spain in 1990 where Lotus driver Martin Donnelly had an appalling accident from which he miraculously recovered. Senna may have appreciated the dangers of racing but at Imola on the Saturday he, like most of the people who were there, received a forceful reminder that its consequences could be fatal. There had not been a death at a Grand Prix since 12 years earlier when Osella driver Riccardo Paletti was killed at the start of the 1982 Canadian Grand Prix, and Ratzenberger’s death was a wake-up call for everyone. Sid Watkins seriously suggested to the badly shaken Senna that he should withdraw from the next day’s race but Ayrton felt it was his destiny to continue and did so – with tragic results.

Motor racing can never be entirely safe and nor do I think it should be. Of course it should always be the objective to have safer cars and circuits, better medical facilities and protective clothing, and highly trained marshals with efficient warning systems, but not to the extent that it encourages dangerous driving. Knowing how safe today’s racing conditions are, the modern Grand Prix driver already takes risks that would have been regarded as suicidal in the 1950s. Would Stirling Moss have taken the 150mph risk to pass Fangio that Senna, enraged by what he felt to be an injustice, took in attempting to overtake Prost in Japan in 1990? Definitely not. Neither Senna nor Prost was even scratched by their collision that took them both out, but in the flimsy cars of Stirling’s time death would almost certainly have been the penalty. And if motor racing was sanitized to the extent that it posed no risks, where would the line be drawn in other hazardous sports? No more mountain climbing? No more parachuting? No more fishing? (You’d be amazed at how many deaths that causes.)

Senna was right. I strongly believe that the individual should be left to make his own mind up about whether the risks are acceptable, provided spectators are given the maximum protection. In the old days no one gave a second thought to their safety but now there are most demanding requirements to protect them. And rightly so.




Bloody long but its a good read :D Cheers Murray Walker :up:

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#2 titrisol

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 13:45

:cry: Good reading... thanks Murray (whoever he is)

#3 confucius

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 13:48

Originally posted by titrisol
:cry: Good reading... thanks Murray (whoever he is)


You don't know who Murray "the voice of Formula 1" Walker is?

#4 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 13:50

Is this from his book? Great read :up:

#5 BRG

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 14:49

I was never a great Murray Walker fan - his Walkerisms used to irritate me more than entertain me - but I remember his performance on that day (and on the occasions of other, thankfully less tragic, accidents). He was very careful to leap to no conclusions either way about Senna's condition, but he was subdued, careful and respectful in his comments. The complete antithesis of his regular manic "trousers on fire" commentating style.

It must the very worst scenario for any commentator - to have to fill in for the TV audience whilst the safety crews do their work, not knowing if the driver is dead or alive, seriously injured or unscathed. I think Murray's last such thankless task was for the Burti-Irvine incident at Spa last year. As ever, he did that nightmare job with gravitas and taste. Whatever you think about Murray, or any other commentator, at those moments, I would not want to be in their shoes for all the tea in China.

#6 Mrv

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 14:56

truly a sad and tragic day for F1. :cry:

#7 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 16:10

Does anyone have a clip or can direct me to a clip of where Ayrton crashed and Murray Walker was commentating? I had one on my computer but had to reboot afew months back and lost every file i had on it, it was a black and white clip with Senna going off in slow motion and murray saying something but i cant quite remember, anyone know of the clip?
If so, could someone please give me the clip to download it from or email it to me?

Thanks

AJ

#8 molive

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 16:27

Murray :up: :cry:

Senna 4 Ever! :clap:

#9 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 16:56

Originally posted by molive
Murray :up: :cry:

Senna 4 Ever! :clap:


Amen.

#10 SeanValen

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 17:29

Agreed Murray :up:

And Senna legend always burning bright. :up:

#11 Car no.27

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Posted 09 October 2002 - 19:01

Good read, Thanks Murray

Senna as always a legend

#12 senninha

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 03:13

"Racing, competing ... is in my blood. It's a part of me."

:( :cry:

#13 AndreasF1

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 03:26

Olee, Olee, Olee Oleee, S-E-N-N-A, S-E-N-N-A, Olee Olee Oleee Ole .... as heard in Interlagos in 1994
Senna the best - always :clap: :clap: :clap:

#14 Zippity

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 04:07

I went to the Murray Walker Dinner last night here in Wellington.

What a wonderful evening with such a wonderful gentleman.

And yes, he personally autographed his new book for me :D:D

#15 AdrianM

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 07:13

Great read. Can't wait to get the book
Murray and Ayrton :up: :up: :up: :up:
Zippity, what kind of stuff was he talking about?

#16 dan2k

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 09:37

Senna, probaly the most talented and greatest racing driver ever.
If there was ever a next Senna, it would be himself re-incarnated.

#17 petri

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 11:12

"Motor racing can never be entirely safe and nor do I think it should be. "

Hmm... I'm not sure if I agree with this. Interesting question. :

#18 AlesiUK

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 12:09

nice read,on a tradgic day for motorsport and for the country of brazil.

one small point:

Would Stirling Moss have taken the 150mph risk to pass Fangio that Senna, enraged by what he felt to be an injustice, took in attempting to overtake Prost in Japan in 1990?



IN 1990,senna took prost off at the first corner,so i dont understand what murray is talking about,does he mean 1989?the chicane is not a 150mph corner?

still,wouldnt be murray if there wasnt a mistake. :)

#19 DOHC

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 12:17

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
Is this from his book? Great read :up:


Yes. More here

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#20 Dudley

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 14:08

AlesiUK - I think he's talking about 1990 and trying to gloss over the fact that Senna admitted himself the goal was to slam into Prost.

Actually I think that illustrates it even more. I doubt even Senna would have tried that one in 1960.

#21 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 16:37

Originally posted by petri
"Motor racing can never be entirely safe and nor do I think it should be. "

Hmm... I'm not sure if I agree with this. Interesting question. :



I think what he meant was that motorsport/F1 should always have an element of danger in it, something which makes the sport so glamourous, so enticing, so addictive, ...whenever you sit in the car it makes your pulse beat that little bit faster, something to be scared of. I think thats why he loved the sport sooo much and always gave 100%. I wish F1 was still like this, but unfortuantly, it isnt anymore in my eyes, its too safe, the cars are too safe, and the races are so damn boring, we need more characters like Senna in F1, but there can be only one Senna :(

Adieu Ayrton , shall never forget the time i met you when i was 7, he looked soo like my dad i thought :)

#22 Ivan

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 17:09

Murry's book is fantastic

#23 ruther

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 20:32

Originally posted by AndreasF1
Olee, Olee, Olee Oleee, S-E-N-N-A, S-E-N-N-A, Olee Olee Oleee Ole .... as heard in Interlagos in 1994
Senna the best - always :clap: :clap: :clap:


Oleeee, Olee, Olee, SENNAAAA!, SENNAAAA!, Oleeee, Olee-oleee...

:clap: :up:

#24 RedFever

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Posted 10 October 2002 - 21:40

"Would Stirling Moss have taken the 150mph risk to pass Fangio that Senna, enraged by what he felt to be an injustice, took in attempting to overtake Prost in Japan in 1990?"

Alesi, you beat to it. I always loved Murray, he made GPs so more fun for the lucky ones who saw his broadcast. I always missed him when I moved to the US and I had to endure the trolls here on ESPN, SpeedTv and ABC.

That said, I understand he was Ayrton's friend, but let's face it. Senna never even remotely attempted to pass Prost in Suzuka 1990. Prost was well ahead, Ayrton, in his desire to take revenge and steal from Prost the title Alain had stolen from him in 1989 (at least in Ayrton's mind) simply didn't break and rammed the Ferrari of the French in the back. Calling it a passing attempt is ignoring reality and revisionistic at best.

#25 senninha

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 04:05

Originally posted by RedFever
"Would Stirling Moss have taken the 150mph risk to pass Fangio that Senna, enraged by what he felt to be an injustice, took in attempting to overtake Prost in Japan in 1990?"

Alesi, you beat to it. I always loved Murray, he made GPs so more fun for the lucky ones who saw his broadcast. I always missed him when I moved to the US and I had to endure the trolls here on ESPN, SpeedTv and ABC.

That said, I understand he was Ayrton's friend, but let's face it. Senna never even remotely attempted to pass Prost in Suzuka 1990. Prost was well ahead, Ayrton, in his desire to take revenge and steal from Prost the title Alain had stolen from him in 1989 (at least in Ayrton's mind) simply didn't break and rammed the Ferrari of the French in the back. Calling it a passing attempt is ignoring reality and revisionistic at best.


There's always a RedFever or Todd at Atlas to screw and put on dust a touching thread like this.... :down:

At least , does your revisionist view about ALL story, including 1989, Prost's politics out of track and Ballestre's main role on it (supporting Prost and changing pole-position place).

#26 pRy

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 09:47

Originally posted by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
Does anyone have a clip or can direct me to a clip of where Ayrton crashed and Murray Walker was commentating? I had one on my computer but had to reboot afew months back and lost every file i had on it, it was a black and white clip with Senna going off in slow motion and murray saying something but i cant quite remember, anyone know of the clip?
If so, could someone please give me the clip to download it from or email it to me?

Thanks

AJ


I don't have the video but I remember his words clearly. They where :

"What happened there!?!?"

I don't know what followed.

#27 pRy

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 09:49

Originally posted by AndreasF1
Olee, Olee, Olee Oleee, S-E-N-N-A, S-E-N-N-A, Olee Olee Oleee Ole .... as heard in Interlagos in 1994
Senna the best - always :clap: :clap: :clap:


A crowd at a major Brazilian Football match sang that the evening he died. I remember that being on the news, it sent shivers down my spine. For a sporting person to die in one sport, and their name be immediately chanted in another sport as a mark of respect was something unique.

#28 AlesiUK

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 12:35

Originally posted by RedFever
"Would Stirling Moss have taken the 150mph risk to pass Fangio that Senna, enraged by what he felt to be an injustice, took in attempting to overtake Prost in Japan in 1990?"

Alesi, you beat to it. I always loved Murray, he made GPs so more fun for the lucky ones who saw his broadcast. I always missed him when I moved to the US and I had to endure the trolls here on ESPN, SpeedTv and ABC.

That said, I understand he was Ayrton's friend, but let's face it. Senna never even remotely attempted to pass Prost in Suzuka 1990. Prost was well ahead, Ayrton, in his desire to take revenge and steal from Prost the title Alain had stolen from him in 1989 (at least in Ayrton's mind) simply didn't break and rammed the Ferrari of the French in the back. Calling it a passing attempt is ignoring reality and revisionistic at best.



i think thats a little harsh red,i think it was just a murray mistake,he ment 1989 i believe,when senna dived up the inside of prost at the chicane,prost took him off.

#29 Dudley

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 12:45

i think thats a little harsh red,i think it was just a murray mistake,he ment 1989 i believe,when senna dived up the inside of prost at the chicane,prost took him off.


Nah, 150mph?

#30 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 16:58

Originally posted by Dudley


Nah, 150mph?


Is this the Casino Square that we're talking about? I dont think it was 150MPH, how fast did they take the 130R previously in those days? about 160ish right? but the onboard footage looks nowhere near that fast, oh well,, still dont think it was 150MPH , because the connection would have been a great big crash, and both cars looks fine to me, no damage at all, unlike the 1990 incident which was taken at 150MPH and destoryed both cars
hope i cleared that one up
:D

#31 speedmaster

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 21:47

Originally posted by molive
Murray :up: :cry:

Senna 4 Ever! :clap:


And ever. RIP the greatest

:wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :cry:

#32 speedmaster

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Posted 11 October 2002 - 21:51

Originally posted by RedFever
".......Senna never even remotely attempted to pass Prost in Suzuka 1990. Prost was well ahead, Ayrton, in his desire to take revenge and steal from Prost the title Alain had stolen from him in 1989 (at least in Ayrton's mind) ........


Well, it seems was not only in his mind as Balestre said very clear that he (FIA's president) teamed with Prost to assure him the championship... It was clearly a revenge, sweet revenge, and as much as I can think it was not right I can't resist to find it great and sweet... Prost and Balestre deserved that... Senna, simply the best... :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

#33 ruther

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Posted 12 October 2002 - 04:49

Originally posted by pRy


A crowd at a major Brazilian Football match sang that the evening he died. I remember that being on the news, it sent shivers down my spine. For a sporting person to die in one sport, and their name be immediately chanted in another sport as a mark of respect was something unique.


It's the first thing I remembered when I read this thread: It was a game between two rivals soccer teams, Corintians x São Paulo, I think, unforgetable...

#34 speedmaster

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Posted 12 October 2002 - 05:16

Originally posted by ruther


It's the first thing I remembered when I read this thread: It was a game between two rivals soccer teams, Corintians x São Paulo, I think, unforgetable...


Everything in Senna is unforgetable.... Senna forever!!!! :up: :up: :up: :up:

#35 AlesiUK

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 13:38

Originally posted by Dudley


Nah, 150mph?


well at the breaking point i there going well above that i suppose,that is the only thing i can see murray meaning?even he couldnt say senna tried to pass prost in 1990!prost was behind!

#36 Dudley

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Posted 13 October 2002 - 17:04

even he couldnt say senna tried to pass prost in 1990!prost was behind!


ahem

http://www.forix.com...90/15_IN_RN.JPG

Prost was ahead within about 10m and well ahead before turn 1

#37 SennasCat

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 12:50

I was at the Murray Walker dinner last nite in Sydney. He spoke for about 30 mins, entertainingly and there was about 15 mins questions after it.

An interesting point, relevant to this post. Murray's ratings, as recalled by me were

1. Tazio Nuvolari
2. Juan Fangio
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Alain Prost.

When pressed by audience member, he basically said he didn't rate Senna as much as Prost, due to his 'obsessive will to win' and the manouevre he pulled on Prost in Japan in 1990. I reckon that he also indirectly blamed Senna for the declining etiquette in F1 driving standards of late.

I found this a little surprising. Maybe it was just me, but I think (now there's a novel concept!) that

1. Senna had greater talent than Prost as far as the sheer mechanics and inspiration of F1 driving goes
2. The move that Senna pulled on Prost in either 1989 or 1988 when he squeezed Prost right up against the Estoril pit wall was much more reckless and dangerous
3. I believe that Prost was not above the odd piece of questionable driving, witness the chicane incident at Suzuka, for which I believe that Senna was unfairly blamed.

Anyway, a great and entertaining night, followed by a deserved standing ovation.

A funny sidenote, Ken Sparkes from Channel 9 was there. He thanked Murray and pointed out that it was great that a man of his years could actually start, full-time, a career getting close to his sixth decade. So far, excellent. Then Sparkes says that Channel 9 won't be covering F1 next year. Before he got the next few words out, the bulk of the audience started clapping and cheering.... :clap: :lol:

#38 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 13:24

Senninha wrote:

There's always a RedFever or Todd at Atlas to screw and put on dust a touching thread like this....

====

Maybe that's because there are so many Senna fans who hate Schumacher are bitching on Michael and Ferrari all the time, particular in these days.

Don't forget: With all the applaudable and respectable performances of Senna, some of his legacy is everything but respectable. And that's too often forgotten or ignored by all the many Senna fans.
If it must be brought up all the time how bad Michael is, how great Senna was, then don't forget that Senna on several occasions was everything but a Saint on the track either. And if we must be reminded about bad, bad Michael and Senna's greatness all the time, then it's fair that we must be reminded about his dark and bad side too.
Nobody is perfect, neither was Senna.

And for the record: I am not a fan of Schumacher for I think obvious reasons. But giving him hell for all what he did in the past and turn a blind eye on the near equal, or even worse things Senna did is wrong in my book.
I admit, Senna can't defend himself anymore but nevertheless. If you think that what Schumacher has done in the past is unforgivable: then you can't be a fan of Senna anymore unless you dare to admit that he has been badly misbehaving too and got away with that too.

Be a fan of Senna if you want: but be objective too if you can!

Henri Greuter

#39 SennasCat

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 13:29

Henri,

Good points well made. For the record, I have supported both Senna and Schumacher (M). Both largely a cut above the field, but I can also see that questionable stuff that they both have done. Senna was far from perfect, could get over the top without provocation. Schumacher the same.

The bulk of the F1 followers on this board can recognise talent without being blinded to the warts that go with them.

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#40 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 15:24

I know this one is off topic. Sorry if it disturbs anybody.


Another, truly, difficult moment for a sports commentator was Indy 1964. Radio commentator Sid Collins had the displeasure of informing the listeners on the radio about the death of Eddie Sachs.
(Collins was as much the Voice of the 500 at that time as Walker of F1 on the Beeb)
A record exists with Indy 500 sound highlights, edited by Collins and his trubite to Eddie as he spoke it, right out of his heart as it came up at the moment is on that tape.
It is also reprinted in his book "Stay tuned for the biggest spectacle in racing"

For American among us perhaps something to search up andor read over again.

I know, few will rate Eddie an equal to Senna.
(I rate Eddie a lot higher, the odd veteran Indycarchampcar fan visiting this pagethread) might agree with me on that)
But if it goes about media people talking about their most difficult moments, this was a memorable one as well which has been preserved for history.


Henri Greuter

#41 titrisol

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 16:45

NO, I never watched Formula1 in english until 1999 that I moved to the US.....
I think he was a british commentator that made a lot of people lauch but I don;t know, nor care who he is/was

Originally posted by confucius


You don't know who Murray "the voice of Formula 1" Walker is?



#42 senninha

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 16:47

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Senninha wrote:

There's always a RedFever or Todd at Atlas to screw and put on dust a touching thread like this....

====

Maybe that's because there are so many Senna fans who hate Schumacher are bitching on Michael and Ferrari all the time, particular in these days.

Don't forget: With all the applaudable and respectable performances of Senna, some of his legacy is everything but respectable. And that's too often forgotten or ignored by all the many Senna fans.
If it must be brought up all the time how bad Michael is, how great Senna was, then don't forget that Senna on several occasions was everything but a Saint on the track either. And if we must be reminded about bad, bad Michael and Senna's greatness all the time, then it's fair that we must be reminded about his dark and bad side too.
Nobody is perfect, neither was Senna.

And for the record: I am not a fan of Schumacher for I think obvious reasons. But giving him hell for all what he did in the past and turn a blind eye on the near equal, or even worse things Senna did is wrong in my book.
I admit, Senna can't defend himself anymore but nevertheless. If you think that what Schumacher has done in the past is unforgivable: then you can't be a fan of Senna anymore unless you dare to admit that he has been badly misbehaving too and got away with that too.

Be a fan of Senna if you want: but be objective too if you can!

Henri Greuter


1 - What hte hell has some AS´s fans hate MS do to with this thread? So, is it some revenge from MS´s fans, totally OUT OF TOPIC?

2 - About this "saint" thing. :mad: :mad: I´ll tell you a story: my first post here (in april, 1999 - when yor were FAR FROM here) i wrote about J.M. Ballestre role at that time (wich some posters hide when only bash Senna) and Don Capps sent a reply writing EXACTALY the same bs than you about Senna as a God for his fans trying to put on dust or disqualified my opinions.

Man, it irritates me a lot :mad: I suggest you read others posts came from me since 99. I know Senna was human and did mistakes either. Since i´m human too, i liked Senna´s revenge on Japan 90 (Prost and Ballestre felt their own poison).

3 - If you don´t feel sad about Senna´s death (as Todd and RedFever), please don´t write nothing on THIS thread. I suggest you open another thread with this title "All Senna´s dirties". There, you can bash Senna WITHOUT get out topic.

btw: Eddie Who?

#43 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 October 2002 - 07:21

senninha


First of all, my message wasn't meant to you personally. If you feel insulted, I regret that becauyse that definitely wasn't the intetion to take it out to you personally.


1 - What hte hell has some AS´s fans hate MS do to with this thread? So, is it some revenge from MS´s fans, totally OUT OF TOPIC?

No, it is not. It is a reaction on all the "Senna Forever" and other outcries of support by a number of Senna fans in this thread which also seems to express (in my opinion at least) the support for Senna's misbehaving.
And as I stated: I am no Schumacher fan.
But I give you credit: Perhaps I should have mentioned that I have found a lot of screaming on MS and his acts of this year in other threads. also comparisons with Senna and funny: lot of Senna fans hitting out to MS and some of his acts while defending similar behaviour of Senna.
I could have done this better.

2 - About this "saint" thing. I´ll tell you a story: my first post here (in april, 1999 - when yor were FAR FROM here)

Do you use this against me? I can't help it that I had no Internet available or knew where to look for for so long.

i wrote about J.M. Ballestre role at that time (wich some posters hide when only bash Senna) and Don Capps sent a reply writing EXACTALY the same bs than you about Senna as a God for his fans trying to put on dust or disqualified my opinions.

I know very well too that Balestre had a lot to do with that matter. And wasn't the most ideal man at the job he had. But let's face it: He never banned Senna for life after he had admitted to have taken out a driver on purpose with (and let's not go into detail what he did because that is indeed out of topic.)


Man, it irritates me a lot! I suggest you read others posts came from me since 99. I know Senna was human and did mistakes either.

OK.

Since i´m human too, i liked Senna´s revenge on Japan 90 (Prost and Ballestre felt their own poison).

Read what you wrote here another time to understand the impact and what you justified as what you think is acceptable that one man can do to endanger the lives of 24 other men.


3 - If you don´t feel sad about Senna´s death

I regret it happened like that and understand the sadness it bring to his fans. My idol driver was also killed in action and not exactly a man that came and went unnoticed either. Neither had no errors in his behaviour either.

(as Todd and RedFever), please don´t write nothing on THIS thread. I suggest you open another thread with this title "All Senna´s dirties".

Don't test me on that one! Probably taken off because it will be too long to read my opening account!

There, you can bash Senna WITHOUT get out topic.

btw: Eddie Who?


You don't know who Eddie Sachs is?
He was a very religious, hell of a driver in the USA, with a tremendous sence of humour and a real crowd pleaser. persevered under every circumstance, not as brilliant as Senna in the cockpit but not as ruthless either. Very capable driver, sometimes over the top but he could do miracles in inferior material, He won the Pole at Indy twice and almost won 1961.
He was killed in the big crash at Indianapolis in 1964. And the orbituary broadcasted on live radio was very touching and moved a lot of people. Even you might have seen the simularities between what was said about Eddie and Senna.
I was remembered to this in 1994 when I was at Indianapolis, that was still in shock of Senna's death. And people at Indy also remembering that 30 years ago one of Indy's all time heroes was killed so tragically and at a manner that the enture USA took notice in 1964. Just like the world took notice of Senna's death.
If you're interested to read it, I can try to copy it. But will open a new thread if you want.

Again: sorry if you feel personally offended. That was definitely not my intention.
But proclaiming Senna Forever and all that kind of language is too much for me to take since it shows too much approval for some highly disgusting acts he also did and are generally overlooked by his many fans while they critisize Michael Schumacher for the same offences.


Henri Greuter

#44 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 October 2002 - 08:26

Originally posted by Steve Williams
....3. I believe that Prost was not above the odd piece of questionable driving, witness the chicane incident at Suzuka, for which I believe that Senna was unfairly blamed.....


I don't think you're right, Steve... but it was an easy incident for adherents of each driver to put points that showed their driver hadn't been the cause.

Just ask yourself, however, which of them won the title because of it?

Prost, for sure, played for keeps when his adversary was Senna... kind of payback stuff, I feel. Sad, but surely true.

#45 Henri Greuter

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Posted 21 October 2002 - 08:26

Senninha

I forgot to mention a few things:

Before hitting out to me for whatever reason again:

- Yes I was at Indy in 1994. (partly because I was sick of F1 because of the domination by one tema only, if not one man only.)
- No, I am not an American but European.
- When Eddie Sachs was killed, I wasn't even yet in kindergarten so my knowledge about Eddie is second hand, based on reading about him and having spoken people who saw him race.


Henri Greuter

#46 senninha

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Posted 21 October 2002 - 17:25

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
senninha


First of all, my message wasn't meant to you personally. If you feel insulted, I regret that becauyse that definitely wasn't the intetion to take it out to you personally.

Again: sorry if you feel personally offended. That was definitely not my intention.
But proclaiming Senna Forever and all that kind of language is too much for me to take since it shows too much approval for some highly disgusting acts he also did and are generally overlooked by his many fans while they critisize Michael Schumacher for the same offences.


Henri Greuter




Please, don´t use this "member of Senna´s church" or "Senna is God for his fans" just to disqualify AS`s fans opinions, ok?

Try to discuss with sense of reason about reality.

I think you notice my reaction about it ...

Don´t worry. :up:

#47 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 08:58

To Senninha,

This message may become too personal and OT, Sorry to the host of this forum and readers of this thread if you feel so.

You wrote:

Please, don´t use this "member of Senna´s church" or "Senna is God for his fans" just to disqualify AS`s fans opinions, ok

==

I get the feeling that you feel offended that I used the words Saint and worshipping beause these words have a religious background.
Your alias doesn't give a clue from which country you are but in my country we have certain expressions in which the word Saint is used as comparisment or description for a person without the intention to abuse the real meaning of the word.
I translated a (for me) normal epression into English, not realising that in other languages or people with stronger religuous feelings than I have could be offended by those words.
More or less the same could be said for the use of worshipping. But I could have used another word if it had came to my mind. But since I'm not fluent in English, the best word that came up with me was indeed worshipping.
I definitely did not have in mind to affend religious people by using words that have certain meanngs to them in an offensive manner. If you or someone else took it like that, it was a matter of misunderstandings due to the language differences and lack of understanding about those.
I hope that you realize that such language confusions can be possible and may have been responsible for mishaps like between us.

===

You also wrote:

Try to discuss with sense of reason about reality.


For what it is worth: I did not want to hit out to people personally about their expressions of Senna support. But some of the expressions of support in this thread were in my opinion not correct since they seem to approve unconditional support, also for the things he did that can be debated if they deserve any support at all. The more while some of the persons in this thread vented their disgust about Schumacher for similar offences as Senna did before Michael in other threads.
That was what I had in mind to tell them but I probably overreacted and obviously I did it at the wrong manner and maybe the wrong place.
I think I am very capable of discussing with sense of reason and reality and I am not such a coward that I can't admit if I was wrong when I am.
Again, don't take this one personal because I know that Senna has fans who can face reality. But may I suggest you to read the recently opened thread about what is the biggest blunder in F1.
You will find some cases of Senna fans coming up to his defence for his doings at Suzuka 1990. And I am sorry to say that I am absolutely lost for some explanattions offered to justify that incident and fortunately wasn't the only one who feels so. If that is discussing with sense of reason for reality then I better quit this forum or refuse to enter any thread in which Senna may come up eventually.
May I invite you to read that thread and react on it?

===

Then you wrote:

I think you notice my reaction about it ...


I see it but things ain't entirely clear to me and thats why I reacted again, with the intention to explain a few more things and not to abuse , offend or whatever else personally. It definitely was an attempt of mine to discuss reasonably, with open mind and willing to listen to another but also with the request to be heard myself as well.
Maybe my words were too harsh but I more or less meant the same when I said that you could be a fan of Senna if you want but try to be objective if you can.
For what it is worth: I have got a lot of bashing on my favorite drivers and cars too over the years but I won't deny their weaknesses. I found a lot of them myself over the years and got bashed myself by a few when I brought them up.
But the truth needed to be told.

==


Don´t worry.

I hope there's no reason for any longer and no more reasons because of this message.
I don't know how to paste smiles and hands in these message but since you offered the digital hand to shake, consider the stat below this line as a hand for a shake hands. And I leave it up to you if you want to accept and shake digital hands.
Hopefully this is out of the world by now.

*


Sincerely,

Henri Greuter

#48 AlesiUK

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 11:46

the problem with senna is that everyone wants to have an opinion on him,and the majority of those opinions are formed without any real research into the man,his life,and his attitude on racing.too many ppl are prepared to just form there opinion purely on what the mass media say/write.

Senna to me,was a man of many contradictions,away from the track he was a deeply religious man,yet also at times,very insecure.he suffered from a kind of virus early in his carreer,it caused damage to his facial muscles on one side and ment he wasnt able to close one eye.it woried him deeply,he thought he may lose his chance of driving for lotus in f1.perhaps a small sign of his insecurity.he was also a very kind man,who gave a lot of money to charity during his life,and subsiquently after his death as well.

at the race track he was again a man of contradictions,there is no doubt he played politics with prost at time during there years at maclaren,his dispute with Balestre was a messy thing for the sport,what should be remembered is that balestre was no easy man to get along with,as other found out.yet for someone who got so involved in the political side of things,he could also be a very humble simple man at times,regularly took friends to his home in brazil during the gp weekend there.he was also eager to help others within the sport whenever he could.if a driver crashed anywhere,or if a mechanic was hurt,senna would soon be on the phone trying to see if he could help.

On the track,there is little doubt in my mind,that on pure ability and speed alone,he is up there with clark,a cut above everyone else.his ability to get more than 100% from a car was incredible,even when it seemed the car had reached its limit,his team mate had accepted such,senna woud go out and find .5sec,he HAD to be quickest,it was his way.Yet again there is little doubt he had his faults on the track,the incident with prost in 1990 being the most obvious,he deliberately took another driver off the track,and put lives at risk in order to win.the same as prost had done in 89 and schumi would subsiquently do in 94 and 97.to me puting victory before human life is a terrible thing,and im not sure senna ever truly understood what he had risked that day at suzuka.

Again,for some one who raced so hard,and on more than one occasion overstepped the limit with other drivers safety,he was also deeply concerned about safety in formula one.his actions after the ratzenburger crash are well known,stealing a course car to get to the scene,jumping a fence after he was barred from entering the medical centre.That accident devestated senna,during his f1 carrer he had never been close to death,there had not been a fatality since 1982,before senna started out in f1.he was also at scene of two large accidents early in his carreer,at Jerez in 1990 when Donnelly had his horrific accident,senna stopped his car on the track at the accident,he stood right behind Sid Watkins as sid went about trying to save martin.also when Eric Comas broke his legs in a crash at spa,again senna stopped his car on circuit and was again on the scene as docs removed erik from the car.He was also trying to instigate the revival of the old GPDA to work on safety measures.the first meeting was to be held at monaco in 94.......

#49 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 22 October 2002 - 11:58

Originally posted by AlesiUK
the problem with senna is that everyone wants to have an opinion on him,and the majority of those opinions are formed without any real research into the man,his life,and his attitude on racing.too many ppl are prepared to just form there opinion purely on what the mass media say/write.

Senna to me,was a man of many contradictions,away from the track he was a deeply religious man,yet also at times,very insecure.he suffered from a kind of virus early in his carreer,it caused damage to his facial muscles on one side and ment he wasnt able to close one eye.it woried him deeply,he thought he may lose his chance of driving for lotus in f1.perhaps a small sign of his insecurity.he was also a very kind man,who gave a lot of money to charity during his life,and subsiquently after his death as well.

at the race track he was again a man of contradictions,there is no doubt he played politics with prost at time during there years at maclaren,his dispute with Balestre was a messy thing for the sport,what should be remembered is that balestre was no easy man to get along with,as other found out.yet for someone who got so involved in the political side of things,he could also be a very humble simple man at times,regularly took friends to his home in brazil during the gp weekend there.he was also eager to help others within the sport whenever he could.if a driver crashed anywhere,or if a mechanic was hurt,senna would soon be on the phone trying to see if he could help.

On the track,there is little doubt in my mind,that on pure ability and speed alone,he is up there with clark,a cut above everyone else.his ability to get more than 100% from a car was incredible,even when it seemed the car had reached its limit,his team mate had accepted such,senna woud go out and find .5sec,he HAD to be quickest,it was his way.Yet again there is little doubt he had his faults on the track,the incident with prost in 1990 being the most obvious,he deliberately took another driver off the track,and put lives at risk in order to win.the same as prost had done in 89 and schumi would subsiquently do in 94 and 97.to me puting victory before human life is a terrible thing,and im not sure senna ever truly understood what he had risked that day at suzuka.

Again,for some one who raced so hard,and on more than one occasion overstepped the limit with other drivers safety,he was also deeply concerned about safety in formula one.his actions after the ratzenburger crash are well known,stealing a course car to get to the scene,jumping a fence after he was barred from entering the medical centre.That accident devestated senna,during his f1 carrer he had never been close to death,there had not been a fatality since 1982,before senna started out in f1.he was also at scene of two large accidents early in his carreer,at Jerez in 1990 when Donnelly had his horrific accident,senna stopped his car on the track at the accident,he stood right behind Sid Watkins as sid went about trying to save martin.also when Eric Comas broke his legs in a crash at spa,again senna stopped his car on circuit and was again on the scene as docs removed erik from the car.He was also trying to instigate the revival of the old GPDA to work on safety measures.the first meeting was to be held at monaco in 94.......



Nice post there AlesiUk, I learned quite afew new things! :up: Kudos to you!