OT--Death in ARCA
Started by
Psychoman
, Oct 09 2002 20:17
72 replies to this topic
#1
Psychoman
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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:17
ARCA driver dies at Charlotte--almost exactly a year after Blaise Alexander was killed in the ARCA race at Charlotte last year.
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#2
Galaxy
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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:18
I guess this isnt a good time to question the safety of those stock cars. Prayers for his family and friends. 
#3
Manson
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Posted 09 October 2002 - 20:22
Awful. The same type of accident which killed somebody at Mosport a month back, driver's door impact. Would a central seating position be such a dumb idea. 
(not sarcasm, a real question)
The same type of accident which killed somebody at Mosport a month back, driver's door impact. Would a central seating position be such a dumb idea. (not sarcasm, a real question)
#4
John B
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 02:39
Very sad, especially because there was a long time between when Martin's car came to rest and the fatal impact with the second car, I think 8 seconds, so something went terribly wrong as far as communication.
#6
Lateralus42
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 02:52
Saw the video, its truly sickening. Someone really f****d up there, either the track or that other driver.
#7
tifosi
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 12:49
The report I watched last night indicated the spotters may not have warned the second driver, but I do not know if that has been confirmed. Really bad deal, my prayers go out to Eric's family and all the drivers
#9
John B
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 14:05
The second driver (Deborah Renshaw) actually has not been told that Martin died in the crash, they're waiting until they're done with surgery. A couple people mentioned oil on the track caused both the first spin and probably the second impact.
Manson, I've wondered about the central seating not only for accidents like this but the ones like John Nemecheck died in, when the head is vulnerable in a driver-side/wall impact.
Manson, I've wondered about the central seating not only for accidents like this but the ones like John Nemecheck died in, when the head is vulnerable in a driver-side/wall impact.
#10
Breadmaster
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 14:08
and keith o'dor a few years back in the DTM......
#11
Locai
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 17:16
A central seating position has been discussed by NASCAR at times, but nothing has ever come of it (imagine that). :
#12
Mila
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 18:17
Originally posted by Manson
The same type of accident which killed somebody at Mosport a month back, driver's door impact.
as well as the same type of accident that killed a Trans-Am driver last season at Mosport.
#13
Megatron
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 18:20
Some accidents are brutal, and that was one. A blow right to the driver's door. PLEASE somebody move the driver over just a little.
And not to confuse anyone, ARCA is not NASCAR, exactly. Its sort of an unoffical junior series. Many/most of the cars in ARCA are used Winston Cup machines.
And not to confuse anyone, ARCA is not NASCAR, exactly. Its sort of an unoffical junior series. Many/most of the cars in ARCA are used Winston Cup machines.
#14
StickShift
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 19:57
Originally posted by tifosi
The report I watched last night indicated the spotters may not have warned the second driver, but I do not know if that has been confirmed. Really bad deal, my prayers go out to Eric's family and all the drivers
That doesn't make any sense. For where Martin had stopped on the Charlotte track, Renshaw would've been able to see his car for atleast 4 or 5 seconds. More then enough times to react. I really want to hear Renshaws excuse for A. Not moving offline. B. Going through at full speed.
#15
vapaokie
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Posted 10 October 2002 - 21:53
I have driven that track in the petty school, albeit at slower speed (~145 mph). At that speed it only takes 5-10 sec to go through the 3rd and 4th turns combined. Even less time in an ARCA car, which is typically an older Winston Cup car (capable of lapping that track in the mid to high 180's, her top practice speed was 176). On top of that, Martin was stopped just off of the fourth turn, having hardly entered the first dogleg. He is stopped just past the entrance to pit road. Coming off the bottom of 4, you let the car drift all the way out to the wall (notice the other 2 cars going behind him before he stopped).
From the video Renshaw may very well have not seen Martin until the other two cars had cleared him. Even if she had seen him as they went by, there is not a hell of a lot she could have done if she didn't know about him being there when she entered 3, much less 4. Pretty damn unfair to say she was negligent coming off that turn to not come offline or slow down if she hadn't been told by the spotter or the caution lights hadn't come on yet; you don't have as far a sight line coming off of 4 to where he was stopped as you might think. I don't think she had much of a chance to do anything to avoid him from the time she saw him to when she hit him.
See-
http://www.charlotte...ver/4250271.htm
for comments from Ron Hornady (one of the two cars that went behind Martin) and from a spotter on the truck next to Reshaw's truck- he didn't see where Martin stopped.
My point is let's wait til the facts are in, and someone has a chance to talk to her about the wreck(was in fair condition the last that I heard), before laying the blame on her. To me, looks like just one of those awful situations that our sport sometimes presents.
At 160 mph into the side of the car, moving the seat over probably wouldn't have made that much difference in this particular wreck, although it may very well help at slower speeds. Look at the violence of the Harman wreck at Bristol (~130 mph?) that tore the car in half. Had he been hit in the side, instead of in front (or back?) of the centerline; it is doubtful he would have walked away like he did.
Always a shame when our sport claims another. Who's the poor soul that had to tell the kids, since Mom's at sea on the USS Gettysburg?
From the video Renshaw may very well have not seen Martin until the other two cars had cleared him. Even if she had seen him as they went by, there is not a hell of a lot she could have done if she didn't know about him being there when she entered 3, much less 4. Pretty damn unfair to say she was negligent coming off that turn to not come offline or slow down if she hadn't been told by the spotter or the caution lights hadn't come on yet; you don't have as far a sight line coming off of 4 to where he was stopped as you might think. I don't think she had much of a chance to do anything to avoid him from the time she saw him to when she hit him.
See-
http://www.charlotte...ver/4250271.htm
for comments from Ron Hornady (one of the two cars that went behind Martin) and from a spotter on the truck next to Reshaw's truck- he didn't see where Martin stopped.
My point is let's wait til the facts are in, and someone has a chance to talk to her about the wreck(was in fair condition the last that I heard), before laying the blame on her. To me, looks like just one of those awful situations that our sport sometimes presents.
At 160 mph into the side of the car, moving the seat over probably wouldn't have made that much difference in this particular wreck, although it may very well help at slower speeds. Look at the violence of the Harman wreck at Bristol (~130 mph?) that tore the car in half. Had he been hit in the side, instead of in front (or back?) of the centerline; it is doubtful he would have walked away like he did.
Always a shame when our sport claims another.
Who's the poor soul that had to tell the kids, since Mom's at sea on the USS Gettysburg?
#16
lustigson
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 11:14
It's always tragic to loose a driver to the sport we love.
Guys, who where the other two deaths mentioned? One at Mosport, last month, and one in Trans-Am, last year? I would like to add their names to a small list I keep as sort of an In Memoriam.
Guys, who where the other two deaths mentioned? One at Mosport, last month, and one in Trans-Am, last year? I would like to add their names to a small list I keep as sort of an In Memoriam.
#17
confucius
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 11:39
Very sad, especially when you read that since 1990, just 12 years, 295 people have been killed already. Not to sound morbid, but is there anywhere to view a video of the crash?
#19
Nasty McBastard
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 13:28
295? is this all inclusive? all forms of racing in all countries?
if so, then i think something like this guy getting killed just shows what a tragedy is it.
when you look at all the people involved in racing around the planet, and take it over 12 years, id have to think your chances of being killed are pretty low.
when you see silly stats like 3 people die each year in china playing table tennis, i think racing does well in general.
if 295 is a total in north america, or even worse, a total in nascar and its junior classes, something is chronically wrong..... but im assuming its not.
if so, then i think something like this guy getting killed just shows what a tragedy is it.
when you look at all the people involved in racing around the planet, and take it over 12 years, id have to think your chances of being killed are pretty low.
when you see silly stats like 3 people die each year in china playing table tennis, i think racing does well in general.
if 295 is a total in north america, or even worse, a total in nascar and its junior classes, something is chronically wrong..... but im assuming its not.
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#20
confucius
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 13:30
Unfortunately, that's 295 in the USA alone. Its in the link that vapaokie provided.
#21
confucius
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 13:33
oh geez I just watched that clip. Absolutely horrible.
#22
Lateralus42
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 15:50
The track is saying that the yellow lights were on immediately after the crash. Looks like the blame is going to fall squarely on the other driver.
#23
Chris G.
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 16:08
Sad loss.
That 295 number is puzzling. I would have never thought. It does say "auto"racing too, so I don't think they include bikes (but I don't know). Just very surprising.
That 295 number is puzzling. I would have never thought. It does say "auto"racing too, so I don't think they include bikes (but I don't know). Just very surprising.
#24
Psychoman
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 16:55
saw the video 
It does seem like a long time passed from the initial crash to the "big one" here, or maybe it was just my connection...
It does seem like a long time passed from the initial crash to the "big one" here, or maybe it was just my connection...
#25
Sphinx
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 17:01
Very sad indeed.
The crash looked terrible. Sure doesn't look like a center seating position would have made any difference in this case, though I'm sure it would in other possible crash situations.
How could this happen? Does this level of racing not have yellow lights/flags/radios to inform all drivers of an accident on track?
The crash looked terrible. Sure doesn't look like a center seating position would have made any difference in this case, though I'm sure it would in other possible crash situations.
How could this happen? Does this level of racing not have yellow lights/flags/radios to inform all drivers of an accident on track?
#26
FlatFoot
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 17:12
Originally posted by Psychoman
saw the video
Unfortunately it's not your connection.
#27
Tomecek
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 19:09
Well, everybody are hapy that no driver has died since 1994 in formula one, but poeple are dying in other series
#28
Mila
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Posted 11 October 2002 - 20:09
lustigson, the fellow I referred to was Mike Gagliardo.
#29
Lada Lover
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Posted 12 October 2002 - 00:44
Originally posted by lustigson
It's always tragic to loose a driver to the sport we love.
Guys, who where the other two deaths mentioned? One at Mosport, last month, and one in Trans-Am, last year? I would like to add their names to a small list I keep as sort of an In Memoriam.
295 racing deaths since 1990. This year there have been 25, some as the result of heart-attacks while racing.
http://www.charlotte...rts/4250369.htm
#30
Joe Fan
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Posted 14 October 2002 - 01:39
This Renshaw gal's career has been filled with controversy. The drivers at Nashville Speedway pooled their money in order to help get her disqualified from a race this year. The news at the time was that the other drivers were jealous of her because she was a successful woman driver. However, the article I pasted below, along this recent death in ARCA which seems inexcusable with the time that she had to react along with the fact that the yellow lights always come on when there is a caution on the track, seems to indicate that maybe the guys were on to something.
Day revs up battle of sexes
By LARRY WOODY
Staff Writer
May 7, 2002
Veteran racer Mark Day yesterday continued his stinging criticism of woman driver Deborah Renshaw, after taking a verbal swipe at her following a crash last Saturday night at Fairgrounds Speedway.
''Deborah is so star-struck that she can't focus on racing,'' said Day, a 40-year-old driver from Clarksville. ''She's been getting so much media attention here lately that I guess she feels like she has to live up to it.
''I don't feel safe around her on a racetrack. I won't race beside her anymore. I'll slow down and let her go by before I'll race with her.''
Three weeks ago, Renshaw, a 24-year-old driver from Bowling Green, Ky., made national racing history by becoming the first woman to lead a division in NASCAR's Weekly Racing Series. Since then, she has slipped to fourth in the division.
''It won't happen again,'' Day said of Renshaw's one-time division lead. ''She's a sinking ship. Or a crashing ship.''
After their crash Saturday night, Day told a TV reporter who tried to interview him: ''Go stick that camera in Deborah's face where you've had it the last two weeks.''
''I thought that was kind of tacky,'' Renshaw said yesterday. ''I'm sorry Mark feels that way about me, but I'm not going to let it bother me and I'm certainly not going to let it affect my driving.''
Renshaw admitted she felt a little uncomfortable with the recent swirl of media attention, even though she did not invite it.
''When someone asked for an interview, I would do it,'' she said. ''The way I looked at it, the publicity was good for the track and good for racing in general.''
Renshaw denied Day's charge that she is pressing too hard to live up to expectations.
''That's absolutely not true,'' she said. ''I'm driving hard because I'm trying to win.''
Day claimed that ''Renshaw just ran right into me.''
Renshaw's version: ''I had the faster car, and Mark wouldn't move out of the way. When I tried to go around him, he cut me off and we wrecked. It's like Darrell Waltrip said during the telecast of Sunday's race, if you've got a slower car than the driver behind you, you're supposed to get out of the way.''
Day said he is not convinced that a woman — at least any woman he knows of — can drive a race car.
''I think there is a mystique about woman drivers,'' he said. ''I've got a 17-year-old daughter and I'd never let her race. But I'm not upset at Deborah because she's a woman; I'm upset at her because she's a bad driver. She's trying to overachieve, and that gets her in trouble.''
Told that his comments could cast him in a bad light, Day said: ''I don't care. I'm 40 years old and I know I'm not going anywhere. I'm not afraid to be candid.''
Renshaw said perhaps Day is ''resentful'' because he is resigned to racing on the local level while she has ambitions of moving up the NASCAR ladder.
''I don't know what Mark's problem is, but he's not going to intimidate me. Maybe he just has trouble believing that a woman driver can be successful.''
Day revs up battle of sexes
By LARRY WOODY
Staff Writer
May 7, 2002
Veteran racer Mark Day yesterday continued his stinging criticism of woman driver Deborah Renshaw, after taking a verbal swipe at her following a crash last Saturday night at Fairgrounds Speedway.
''Deborah is so star-struck that she can't focus on racing,'' said Day, a 40-year-old driver from Clarksville. ''She's been getting so much media attention here lately that I guess she feels like she has to live up to it.
''I don't feel safe around her on a racetrack. I won't race beside her anymore. I'll slow down and let her go by before I'll race with her.''
Three weeks ago, Renshaw, a 24-year-old driver from Bowling Green, Ky., made national racing history by becoming the first woman to lead a division in NASCAR's Weekly Racing Series. Since then, she has slipped to fourth in the division.
''It won't happen again,'' Day said of Renshaw's one-time division lead. ''She's a sinking ship. Or a crashing ship.''
After their crash Saturday night, Day told a TV reporter who tried to interview him: ''Go stick that camera in Deborah's face where you've had it the last two weeks.''
''I thought that was kind of tacky,'' Renshaw said yesterday. ''I'm sorry Mark feels that way about me, but I'm not going to let it bother me and I'm certainly not going to let it affect my driving.''
Renshaw admitted she felt a little uncomfortable with the recent swirl of media attention, even though she did not invite it.
''When someone asked for an interview, I would do it,'' she said. ''The way I looked at it, the publicity was good for the track and good for racing in general.''
Renshaw denied Day's charge that she is pressing too hard to live up to expectations.
''That's absolutely not true,'' she said. ''I'm driving hard because I'm trying to win.''
Day claimed that ''Renshaw just ran right into me.''
Renshaw's version: ''I had the faster car, and Mark wouldn't move out of the way. When I tried to go around him, he cut me off and we wrecked. It's like Darrell Waltrip said during the telecast of Sunday's race, if you've got a slower car than the driver behind you, you're supposed to get out of the way.''
Day said he is not convinced that a woman — at least any woman he knows of — can drive a race car.
''I think there is a mystique about woman drivers,'' he said. ''I've got a 17-year-old daughter and I'd never let her race. But I'm not upset at Deborah because she's a woman; I'm upset at her because she's a bad driver. She's trying to overachieve, and that gets her in trouble.''
Told that his comments could cast him in a bad light, Day said: ''I don't care. I'm 40 years old and I know I'm not going anywhere. I'm not afraid to be candid.''
Renshaw said perhaps Day is ''resentful'' because he is resigned to racing on the local level while she has ambitions of moving up the NASCAR ladder.
''I don't know what Mark's problem is, but he's not going to intimidate me. Maybe he just has trouble believing that a woman driver can be successful.''
#31
100cc
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Posted 14 October 2002 - 02:03
The crash was during practice!!
The first thing you do in practice if you see yellow flags is lift off the throttle!!
The first thing you do in practice if you see yellow flags is lift off the throttle!!
#32
Dmitriy_Guller
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Posted 14 October 2002 - 16:42
Originally posted by Joe Fan
This Renshaw gal's career has been filled with controversy. The drivers at Nashville Speedway pooled their money in order to help get her disqualified from a race this year. The news at the time was that the other drivers were jealous of her because she was a successful woman driver. However, the article I pasted below, along this recent death in ARCA which seems inexcusable with the time that she had to react along with the fact that the yellow lights always come on when there is a caution on the track, seems to indicate that maybe the guys were on to something.
Day revs up battle of sexes
By LARRY WOODY
Staff Writer
May 7, 2002
Veteran racer Mark Day yesterday continued his stinging criticism of woman driver Deborah Renshaw, after taking a verbal swipe at her following a crash last Saturday night at Fairgrounds Speedway.
''Deborah is so star-struck that she can't focus on racing,'' said Day, a 40-year-old driver from Clarksville. ''She's been getting so much media attention here lately that I guess she feels like she has to live up to it.
''I don't feel safe around her on a racetrack. I won't race beside her anymore. I'll slow down and let her go by before I'll race with her.''
Three weeks ago, Renshaw, a 24-year-old driver from Bowling Green, Ky., made national racing history by becoming the first woman to lead a division in NASCAR's Weekly Racing Series. Since then, she has slipped to fourth in the division.
''It won't happen again,'' Day said of Renshaw's one-time division lead. ''She's a sinking ship. Or a crashing ship.''
After their crash Saturday night, Day told a TV reporter who tried to interview him: ''Go stick that camera in Deborah's face where you've had it the last two weeks.''
''I thought that was kind of tacky,'' Renshaw said yesterday. ''I'm sorry Mark feels that way about me, but I'm not going to let it bother me and I'm certainly not going to let it affect my driving.''
Renshaw admitted she felt a little uncomfortable with the recent swirl of media attention, even though she did not invite it.
''When someone asked for an interview, I would do it,'' she said. ''The way I looked at it, the publicity was good for the track and good for racing in general.''
Renshaw denied Day's charge that she is pressing too hard to live up to expectations.
''That's absolutely not true,'' she said. ''I'm driving hard because I'm trying to win.''
Day claimed that ''Renshaw just ran right into me.''
Renshaw's version: ''I had the faster car, and Mark wouldn't move out of the way. When I tried to go around him, he cut me off and we wrecked. It's like Darrell Waltrip said during the telecast of Sunday's race, if you've got a slower car than the driver behind you, you're supposed to get out of the way.''
Day said he is not convinced that a woman — at least any woman he knows of — can drive a race car.
''I think there is a mystique about woman drivers,'' he said. ''I've got a 17-year-old daughter and I'd never let her race. But I'm not upset at Deborah because she's a woman; I'm upset at her because she's a bad driver. She's trying to overachieve, and that gets her in trouble.''
Told that his comments could cast him in a bad light, Day said: ''I don't care. I'm 40 years old and I know I'm not going anywhere. I'm not afraid to be candid.''
Renshaw said perhaps Day is ''resentful'' because he is resigned to racing on the local level while she has ambitions of moving up the NASCAR ladder.
''I don't know what Mark's problem is, but he's not going to intimidate me. Maybe he just has trouble believing that a woman driver can be successful.''
I don't they they were up to anything at all, they were just being total idiots. That Day guy sounds like a total jealous moron to me.
#33
Joe Fan
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Posted 14 October 2002 - 16:54
Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
I don't they they were up to anything at all, they were just being total idiots. That Day guy sounds like a total jealous moron to me.
I don't know. All I can say is that I have seen drivers miss t-boning a car driver's side when given a few seconds. She had eights seconds after the car came to a stop. The only way someone could have hit Martin that late, at that speed, is if they weren't paying attention. The yellow lights came on as soon as Martin spun according reports.
#34
Dmitriy_Guller
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Posted 14 October 2002 - 17:13
Originally posted by Joe Fan
I don't know. All I can say is that I have seen drivers miss t-boning a car driver's side when given a few seconds. She had eights seconds after the car came to a stop. The only way someone could have hit Martin that late, at that speed, is if they weren't paying attention. The yellow lights came on as soon as Martin spun according reports.
That doesn't have anything to do with what that jealous old geezer said. We don't even know what went on yet. All those "men" were just sore after the **** hit the fan and they were exposed as sexist pigs to the whole country. He was just spraying accusations like machine gun about her abilities, if they interviewed him longer, he would've said that she always leaves the toilet seat up. He just got lucky with one of the random accusations, or so it appears with things we know today about the accident.
#35
RiverRunner
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 06:33
It's a racing deal,it happens.
It happened when Jacques pegged Hiro,long after Hiro was stopped as well.
It happened to Zanardi
Cars get pegged all the time on the side at every level of racing,this one is tragic as it was direct hit at speed
Horrific crash.
It happened when Jacques pegged Hiro,long after Hiro was stopped as well.
It happened to Zanardi
Cars get pegged all the time on the side at every level of racing,this one is tragic as it was direct hit at speed
Horrific crash.
#36
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 06:38
An Indycar at a buck 80 is a different fish than an accident that had happened 10 seconds previous and you drill the guy.
#37
RiverRunner
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 06:45
Ever see the replay of JV vs Hiro at Phoenix?
Jacques did the same exact thing,I don't think he ever touched the brakes and hiro was at a dead stop.
6 inches farther forward and there would have been no King Hiro
Jacques did the same exact thing,I don't think he ever touched the brakes and hiro was at a dead stop.
6 inches farther forward and there would have been no King Hiro
#38
John B
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 17:25
The JV incident is exactly what I thought of after seeing the tape. There was a long delay between the yellow and the crash there too. I caught the last 100 laps of the NASCAR race Sunday, and when the cars were racing to get their lap back as they approached all those wrecked cars at the last caution it came to mind again.....
In addition to what Joe Fan posted above, there was more controversy with Renshaw at the short track. At the end of their season, the drivers ganged up and paid for someone to enter a race so they could finish behind her, then had that person file a protest over Renshaw's car. I think she did in fact get DQed and that affected the track championship. I'll post the article if/when I find it again.
In addition to what Joe Fan posted above, there was more controversy with Renshaw at the short track. At the end of their season, the drivers ganged up and paid for someone to enter a race so they could finish behind her, then had that person file a protest over Renshaw's car. I think she did in fact get DQed and that affected the track championship. I'll post the article if/when I find it again.
#39
ehagar
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 18:12
Wasn't JVs accident in race conditions? Were there other cars nearby? I have forgotten the particulars of that accident... But I believe they didn't have as advanced warnings back then either...
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#40
StickShift
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 18:16
Also remember back then, Cart teams didn't have spotters at oval tracks, so I don't know if he would've had any advance warning on where on the track Hiro's car was stranded.
#41
Mila
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 18:50
JV did have two cars (not on the same lap, IIRC) on his inside as he took the corner leading to the incident. they may have distracted him. the time elapsed between the yellow and contact was considerable, however. Tracy, having started to climb from his stricken Penske along the wall, was struck by someone's airborne engine.
#42
biercemountain
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 19:23
I had no idea that the ARCA crash occured during practice!!!!!
My first thought was that it was caused by the NASCAR rule about "racing back to the finish line" when a yellow comes out. Perhaps someone understands that rule better than me and can explain how exactly it's used.
Next to Greg Moore's Fontana crash that ARCA crash was the most horrific I've ever seen in the last few years. I hope that Renshaw has some sort of reasonable explaination for her lack of action. If she just wasn't paying attention, she's going to have to live with the consequences for the rest of her life.
My first thought was that it was caused by the NASCAR rule about "racing back to the finish line" when a yellow comes out. Perhaps someone understands that rule better than me and can explain how exactly it's used.
Next to Greg Moore's Fontana crash that ARCA crash was the most horrific I've ever seen in the last few years. I hope that Renshaw has some sort of reasonable explaination for her lack of action. If she just wasn't paying attention, she's going to have to live with the consequences for the rest of her life.
#43
John B
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 20:07
Originally posted by ehagar
Wasn't JVs accident in race conditions? Were there other cars nearby? I have forgotten the particulars of that accident... But I believe they didn't have as advanced warnings back then either...
It was indeed in the middle of the race. Tracy had led up to the accident (2nd year in a row he wrecked while leading) and King H. was 18 laps down for whatever reason....
#44
Joe Fan
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Posted 15 October 2002 - 20:12
The word is that Renshaw's impact was 8 seconds after Martin's car came to a rest up against the outside retaining wall and 18 seconds after he first crashed. He had radioed that he was OK after the initial crash. Driver Shelby Howard, who was in front of Renshaw, said he seen the yellow lights come on and he was able to miss hitting Martin's car. It is speculated that she must have missed at least two yellow caution lights.
Color it anyway you want but it seems to me as if she wasn't paying attention. I have seen quite a few drivers miss hitting a car on the driver's side with much less time to react. But these drivers are experienced and this was only Renshaw's third start on a track a 1.5 mile or larger. The time elapsed makes me wonder if Martin had started undoing his belts. However, if you get hit by any car at the "wrong" angle driver's side at a high speed, the results won't be good. I am not sure how effective a HANS device would be in this type of crash but most of the top Winston Cup drivers have pretty sophiscated seats, head rests and padding on the roll bars to prevent their head from hitting things inside the car. Does anyone know exactly what the cause of death was to Martin?
Color it anyway you want but it seems to me as if she wasn't paying attention. I have seen quite a few drivers miss hitting a car on the driver's side with much less time to react. But these drivers are experienced and this was only Renshaw's third start on a track a 1.5 mile or larger. The time elapsed makes me wonder if Martin had started undoing his belts. However, if you get hit by any car at the "wrong" angle driver's side at a high speed, the results won't be good. I am not sure how effective a HANS device would be in this type of crash but most of the top Winston Cup drivers have pretty sophiscated seats, head rests and padding on the roll bars to prevent their head from hitting things inside the car. Does anyone know exactly what the cause of death was to Martin?
#45
vapaokie
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Posted 16 October 2002 - 18:07
Joe,
If he was the one in front of Renshaw, that means Hornaday was the first of the two cars that went behind Martin. Howard just squeezed behind Martin and the wall. Perhaps she tried to follow?, maybe too far behind to do that? I would still wait until we get her side of the story.
As for the speculation that the drivers in the ARCA series shouldn't be going to the big tracks, just where exactly do they go to learn to race on them? To me, that is part of what this particular series is for. To get experience on the bigger tracks, at faster speeds than you have gone in the past, before trying to go into Busch or Cup rides.
Cause of death described as massive multiple internal injuries. Hit by the side of the roll cage as it was pushed in by Renshaw's nose, my guess. That's what caused Bobby Allison's horrendous injuries at Pocono; severe brain injury as well as thoracic injuries, nearly killed him. In this wreck, both of these drivers were wearing the HANS device. That device would have no bearing on abdominal/thoracic injuries (IMO, is what internal injuries generally refers to). Hit hard enough (with enough decelerative force) even belts being on can cause these. The HANS device may very well have saved Renshaw's life; she had a concussion, without the HANS I think it likely she'd have had much worse head/neck injuries. She hit Martin a ton. He may very well have been undoing the belts, but I really don't think that made much of a difference in this wreck. It just one of those things this sport does every once in a while.
Regarding the JACK***** at Nashville speedway, I really don't think their comments/actions add much to this discussion. Just more of the unnecessary sexism that unfortunately taints this sport at times (refer to the crap, even on this board and from the McLaren mechanic one of our members talked to on a flight, about the size of Sara Fisher's butt; as though that has a thing to do with her ability to drive).
Ross-
"An Indycar at a buck 80 is a different fish than an accident that had happened 10 seconds previous and you drill the guy."
Just how different is the reaction time only 10-15 mph slower in a stock car. Her top practice speed was a "buck 76", meaning she was likely cooking through the turn in the low to mid 160's. Not to mention that the stock car is much less reactive than an Indy car?
Tomecek-
"Well, everybody are hapy that no driver has died since 1994 in formula one, but poeple are dying in other series."
I have responded to this type of statement before on this board, don't be cocky. As safe as the F1 cars are, it is only a matter of time til we lose another. Hopefully, a long time (we did get 12 years after Villeneuve). F1 has many fewer drivers running many fewer total miles. Lift Heidfelds car 6 inches in Austria, no more Sato; put McNish into the Armco foward instead of backwards, he would have caught the top rail right in the top of the helmet and he wouldn't have stood a chance. Unfortunately this sport kills; cars and tracks can not be built for all possible accidents, combined with the human error factor, it will happen again.
If he was the one in front of Renshaw, that means Hornaday was the first of the two cars that went behind Martin. Howard just squeezed behind Martin and the wall. Perhaps she tried to follow?, maybe too far behind to do that? I would still wait until we get her side of the story.
As for the speculation that the drivers in the ARCA series shouldn't be going to the big tracks, just where exactly do they go to learn to race on them? To me, that is part of what this particular series is for. To get experience on the bigger tracks, at faster speeds than you have gone in the past, before trying to go into Busch or Cup rides.
Cause of death described as massive multiple internal injuries. Hit by the side of the roll cage as it was pushed in by Renshaw's nose, my guess. That's what caused Bobby Allison's horrendous injuries at Pocono; severe brain injury as well as thoracic injuries, nearly killed him. In this wreck, both of these drivers were wearing the HANS device. That device would have no bearing on abdominal/thoracic injuries (IMO, is what internal injuries generally refers to). Hit hard enough (with enough decelerative force) even belts being on can cause these. The HANS device may very well have saved Renshaw's life; she had a concussion, without the HANS I think it likely she'd have had much worse head/neck injuries. She hit Martin a ton. He may very well have been undoing the belts, but I really don't think that made much of a difference in this wreck. It just one of those things this sport does every once in a while.
Regarding the JACK***** at Nashville speedway, I really don't think their comments/actions add much to this discussion. Just more of the unnecessary sexism that unfortunately taints this sport at times (refer to the crap, even on this board and from the McLaren mechanic one of our members talked to on a flight, about the size of Sara Fisher's butt; as though that has a thing to do with her ability to drive).
Ross-
"An Indycar at a buck 80 is a different fish than an accident that had happened 10 seconds previous and you drill the guy."
Just how different is the reaction time only 10-15 mph slower in a stock car. Her top practice speed was a "buck 76", meaning she was likely cooking through the turn in the low to mid 160's. Not to mention that the stock car is much less reactive than an Indy car?
Tomecek-
"Well, everybody are hapy that no driver has died since 1994 in formula one, but poeple are dying in other series."
I have responded to this type of statement before on this board, don't be cocky. As safe as the F1 cars are, it is only a matter of time til we lose another. Hopefully, a long time (we did get 12 years after Villeneuve). F1 has many fewer drivers running many fewer total miles. Lift Heidfelds car 6 inches in Austria, no more Sato; put McNish into the Armco foward instead of backwards, he would have caught the top rail right in the top of the helmet and he wouldn't have stood a chance. Unfortunately this sport kills; cars and tracks can not be built for all possible accidents, combined with the human error factor, it will happen again.
#46
LB
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Posted 16 October 2002 - 18:26
vapaokie great post - bit please remember Elio De Angelis.
#47
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 16 October 2002 - 18:33
Thing is JV was doing probably 180mph on what is effectively a flat oval, and Renshaw would have been doing 170ish on a high banked oval. Ie if we put JV and his car in the same situation as Renshaw, he'd have been doing well over 200. JV was going relatively much faster in his situation.
The dumbest part, second to even the length before the incident, was THAT IT HAPPENED IN PRACTICE. **** happens in the fog of racing, but this was a freaking joke.
The dumbest part, second to even the length before the incident, was THAT IT HAPPENED IN PRACTICE. **** happens in the fog of racing, but this was a freaking joke.
#48
vapaokie
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- 490 posts
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Posted 16 October 2002 - 18:39
I thought De Angelis died before Villenueve, my bad. Was not able to watch F1 at that time in the US, at least not on broadcast TV, except for the occasional Wide World of Sports Monaco race. Nor was I old enough to remember much if I could. My first racing memory is Petty's last 500 win, I believe was 1983, maybe 1982. Did not mean to leave DeAngelis out, meant to refer to the time from 1982-1994.
Ross-
The high banked oval also significantly reduces the sight line. If she hadn't been told by the spotter, not much she could have done once she saw him.
Ross-
The high banked oval also significantly reduces the sight line. If she hadn't been told by the spotter, not much she could have done once she saw him.
#49
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 16 October 2002 - 18:46
I disagree. This is the ARCA level. There are spotters, yellow caution lights, flags, and the drivers Mark 1 eyeball. If you cant make use of all of those things, you shouldnt be in the series. This wasnt an accident, it was incompetence.
#50
vapaokie
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Posted 16 October 2002 - 19:02
Ross-
ARCA level is not a top rung series; it is a training level.
Flags- not except at the start finish line, would never have seen one from the time Martin spun til she hit him.
Lights- that's the unknown right now, did she see them? Only she knows, haven't heard anything from her yet.
Spotter- Likely he never saw where Martin was or that he had spun from most reports, but he hasn't commented either.
Mark I eyball- Can't see through the roof of the car. If you don't have a sightline to Martin, please tell me how you are supposed to know he's there, ESP?
Not trying to pick a fight ross, I respect your opinion. My point remains, we don't know enough to assign blame in this. To me is likely she couldn't do much except maybe put the car into a spin. Let's say she saw lights entering 3. At full speed, lifting or worse, jamming on the brakes is likely to rotate the car. If she saw them on the backstretch, she could have slowed enough. We don't know at this point.
Biercemountain-
"If she just wasn't paying attention, she's going to have to live with the consequences for the rest of her life."
I don't think it a matter of her not paying attention. A little compassion here- her fault or not, she has to live with this. Much as JV has to live with the death of the marshall in Australia, even though that wasn't his fault, either. Or Sterling Marlin and Earnhardt's death- not his fault, just a racing accident.
ARCA level is not a top rung series; it is a training level.
Flags- not except at the start finish line, would never have seen one from the time Martin spun til she hit him.
Lights- that's the unknown right now, did she see them? Only she knows, haven't heard anything from her yet.
Spotter- Likely he never saw where Martin was or that he had spun from most reports, but he hasn't commented either.
Mark I eyball- Can't see through the roof of the car. If you don't have a sightline to Martin, please tell me how you are supposed to know he's there, ESP?
Not trying to pick a fight ross, I respect your opinion. My point remains, we don't know enough to assign blame in this. To me is likely she couldn't do much except maybe put the car into a spin. Let's say she saw lights entering 3. At full speed, lifting or worse, jamming on the brakes is likely to rotate the car. If she saw them on the backstretch, she could have slowed enough. We don't know at this point.
Biercemountain-
"If she just wasn't paying attention, she's going to have to live with the consequences for the rest of her life."
I don't think it a matter of her not paying attention. A little compassion here- her fault or not, she has to live with this. Much as JV has to live with the death of the marshall in Australia, even though that wasn't his fault, either. Or Sterling Marlin and Earnhardt's death- not his fault, just a racing accident.
