20 replies to this topic

[Vilcornell]

It should challenge the 1972 (?) WSP championship; why it havn't raced? Have JW team made tests with it?

[WGD706]

It appeared at the 1973 Lemans test weekend but never raced. Derek Bell ran a 3'56''5 using the Weslake V12 (3L), while Howden Ganley in a Mirage Cosworth V8 (3L) ran a 3'40''7.
I can't find any reasons as to why it was never raced; perhaps the times were too slow, the motor was too thirsty or unreliable.
Warren

[bobbo]

OK. I'll plead ignorance and ask the obvious question:

Was this engine related to the Gurney-Westlake 3 litre v12 of Eagle fame?

Bobbo

[Ray Bell]

Judging by the name and the fact that it was (by now...) so far behind the Cosworth, and the word 'unreliable' was used without reference to any proving of this feature, I'd say it was the Gurney-Weslake F1 engine.

Not to be confused with the 'Fairlane' based Gurney-Weslake V8s...

There are other threads about Harry Weslake's involvement with V12s in this era, especially the work he did for BRM. You might find more clues there...

[Tim Murray]

Have a look at this thread:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=26874

Apparently the Ford-badged Weslake V12 as tried by Mirage had different bore and stroke to the Gurney-Weslake V12

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Tim Murray
Have a look at this thread:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=26874

Apparently the Ford-badged Weslake V12 as tried by Mirage had different bore and stroke to the Gurney-Weslake V12

Which version of the engine was it that was tried in a Brabham BT39 F2 and also (rather clandestinely) in a BRM P160? (I can't imagine the FORD badged one going into a BRM!)

pete

[Pete Stowe]

Doug explains all in the History of the GP car 1966-85. Weslake first put a proposal together for a 3 litre 48-valve V12 for BRM for 1966. This was rejected by BRM who went with the H16 (The BRM V12 introduced in 1967 was a different project altogether, being designed in-house at BRM by Geoffrey Johnson)
The rejected Weslake proposal then formed the basis of the Eagle-Weslake V12 of 66-68; the designer being Aubrey Woods many parts followed BRM practice.
"The basic design was subsequently revived in 1970 when Harry Weslake discussed a potential long-distance sports car and F1 engine with Stuart Turner and Len Bailey of the Ford Motor Co. The new engine was much modified and revised but in 1972 proved a dreadful flop"
"One engine was installed in a BRM P160 and run at Ricard without impressing while Brabham built a special car for it which was not considered worthy to be raced and the project petered out"

The Gurney Eagle version of 1966 claimed 364 bhp at 9500 rpm. the 1972 version was independently dyno-tested at 464 bhp at 10,750 rpm.

[jmp85]

motorsport from october (the one with fittipaldi on the cover) includes a one-pager (plus photos) on this engine.

[Vilcornell]

..so Ford was looking for a v12 at the same time they were winning with Coswy?
Looking at Ferrari performance in the following year it should has been a good idea; I recently saw a video of 72 nurburgring dice between Stewart and Regazzoni; on the long stright Clay passed JYS very easy..... were this the rules?

[Vilcornell]

oops sorry, it was 71?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vilcornell
..so Ford was looking for a v12 at the same time they were winning with Coswy?
Looking at Ferrari performance in the following year it should has been a good idea; I recently saw a video of 72 nurburgring dice between Stewart and Regazzoni; on the long stright Clay passed JYS very easy..... were this the rules?

The rules simply said '3-litre maximum capacity unsupercharged, 1.5-litres supercharged'

[Yorgos]

There are two pages on the subject ("the dreary 3 year saga of the Weslake V12") in Stuart Turners biography "Twice Lucky".
The idea was to have an engine suitable for WSPR and give it to JWA/Gulf in exclusivity as Keith Duckworth was insisting that the DFV was not suited to endurance racing.
The Weslake V12 never ran properly and had not any power. Weslake were claiming 455bhp but "independent Gulf testing" found only 410 bhp. On top of that, Weslake became uncooperative
and the October 73 energy crisis was the final straw which made Ford to cancel the project
At the end, Weslake offered to sell the engines (6 made over 3 years), tooling and spares to Ford for 40,000 pounds but Ford declined.

Cheers
Yorgos

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Yorgos
There are two pages on the subject ("the dreary 3 year saga of the Weslake V12") in Stuart Turners biography "Twice Lucky".
The idea was to have an engine suitable for WSPR and give it to JWA/Gulf in exclusivity as Keith Duckworth was insisting that the DFV was not suited to endurance racing.
The Weslake V12 never ran properly and had not any power. Weslake were claiming 455bhp but "independent Gulf testing" found only 410 bhp. On top of that, Weslake became uncooperative
and the October 73 energy crisis was the final straw which made Ford to cancel the project
At the end, Weslake offered to sell the engines (6 made over 3 years), tooling and spares to Ford for 40,000 pounds but Ford declined.

Cheers
Yorgos

There's a fascinating letter about the Weslake in this month's Green'Un too - from Guy Black, the ex-MD of Lynx Engineering who actually bought the project from Weslake with the aim of building his own Le Mans car, and later sold the engines on to Aston Martin (!) At one time there was a Lynx D-Type running around with a Weslake V12 in it - a very interesing special or an act of sacrilege, you be the jury! Terry Hoyle later got his hands on that engine, apparently.

(I think that became the basis of the V12 in the BRM sports prototype many years later - which I think finished its days open-topped and with a Nissan V6!)

The irony of DKD's statement about the DFV is that of course it did go on to win Le Mans on multiple occasions (admittedly against fairly thin sports-car opposition)...

pete

[Vilcornell]

Ray,
I think that the minimum weight , and the developing aero downforce were in favour of v12 in '74/'75 rather that 1967.
or I'm wrong

[Ray Bell]

While the rules are clearly not determining the type of engine, what you say is correct...

In all probability, a Cosworth V12 would have become more appropriate when the additional drag of the wings of the later era came into being.

The reason for the V8 in the first place was compactness. This never changed... but that had to be balanced against power availability... the V12 could deliver that. Against the V12 was fuel consumption.

A difficult balance to sort out. But the closeness of it is shown by the fact that Ferrari and the kit cars did race wheel to wheel over the decade of the seventies, and that the Matra and BRM showed their heels to the Cossies on occasions in the early part of the decade.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
While the rules are clearly not determining the type of engine, what you say is correct...


A difficult balance to sort out. But the closeness of it is shown by the fact that Ferrari and the kit cars did race wheel to wheel over the decade of the seventies, and that the Matra and BRM showed their heels to the Cossies on occasions in the early part of the decade.

Just as an aside, did Ferrari at any point in the late 70s consider
turning the flat-12 into a 60-degree V12 (after all, something they
knew a lot about!) in the same way that Alfa did (so it'd be a better
ground-effects engine), or were they entirely focussed on the turbo
solution? Given the number of weird and wonderful abandoned Ferrari
engine projects, I'd be surprised if someone in a back room somewhere
didn't try to scheme a quick-and-dirty V12... might've made a difference
circa 1980!

pete

[Vilcornell]

my opiniom is that turbo absorbed every effort after the disastrous '80 season with T5; after all it had the advantage of compactness and more power than an atmospheric 12.
Don't know if they were thinking also a 4 or 8 cylinder.

[Gerr]

Re: Weslake engines: I ran across an old advert that I had snipped out of a Hemming's Motor News a few years ago for,
"Over 150 Full-Scale Engineering Drawings........CVC V-12.......Engineered by Aubrey Woods, formerly of BRM & Weslake Engineering" There is a photo of an engine on a stand with a grey-haired fellow standing behind it. The engine is painted white with blue cam and cam-belt covers. The cam-belt cover is only a little wider than the inboard cams, so I guess there is a hidden chain or gears to drive the outboard cams. On the front of the cam-belt cover is cast "CUMMINGS" The specs listed are, 60 degree V-12, bore 3.062", stroke 1.828", total displacement 160.4 cubic inches, o/a width 18.5", o/a height 22", o/a length 28.75" and weight 360 lbs. All-alloy DOHC, 4-valve per cylinder, dry sump, wet liner. Says that the bore and stroke can be altered to a swept volume of 212 cubic inches.
The address was CVC Inc. PO Box 864, Hadlock WA. 98339, (206) 385-5843.
Anyone at TNF know anything more about this engine? I think the ad ran 10 or 12 years ago.

[Arjan de Roos]

During these holiday days I am building the new Esdo kit of the Mirage Weslake in 1/43rd scale. Esdo kits are made by Dominique Esparcieux, one of the senior kit makers (of the John Day and FDS era, before Provence or SMTS). Fun of this model is the fact that it was tested with a bare aluminium tail, but the nose in Gulf livery.

I stepped on this site for some great pics and like to share them with you:
http://membres.lycos...ux/histoire.htm
Click on the year and then photos to get them.

Does anyone else have other Mirage V12 pics?

I suppose so, but to confirm, was this a Firestone shod car?
Does it still exist in a museum or collection?

[fausto]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
..............

Does anyone else have other Mirage V12 pics?

I suppose so, but to confirm, was this a Firestone shod car?
Does it still exist in a museum or collection?

If I remember well I saw the coupè car on the net and some books, it was (is?) in the USofA

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos


Does anyone else have other Mirage V12 pics?

I suppose so, but to confirm, was this a Firestone shod car?

Well, here's one: A-Z
The text states "Goodyear" but I did all this a long long time ago, so I'm not sure anymore. I remember there was an article in the German Sport Auto back then.

BTW I hate Lycos sites