21 replies to this topic

[Martyj]

A question about Spa...

though somewhat a bit off the racing topic, but something any WW2 buffs at Atlas might know.

The Battle of the Bulge was fought roughly where the old Spa racecourse runs. I'm currently looking at a map detailing the route of Kampfgruppe Peipers advance. It runs through Stavelot. Does anyone know if this advance actually takes place on portions of the Spa racetrack? I see on this map that along the road between Francorchamps and Stavelot was a oil dump that was crucial to Peiper capturing in order to refuel his tanks. Is this road part of the race course. And if so, does anyone know if there exist contemporary photos of the race track as to how it was affected during the battle? Anyone know details of any fighting that took place directly along the track at any point?

I don't expect much response to this post, but anything would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Leif Snellman]

Kampfgruppe Peiper? Oil dumps? Are you playing wargames or what?

-17 Dec. The day of the infamous "Malmedy massacre" in a field by the Baugnez crossroads on the road to Malmedy.

- Peiper reached the river Ambleve at Trois Points but but US engineers blew the bridge. Then Peiper made for Gleize which he captured but US engineers blew the bridge at Habiemont, just outside Gleize trapping Kampfgruppe Peiper.

- 19 Dec: Short of fuel Peiper begins to consolidate his battlegroup only a few miles from the largest US fuel dump in the Ardennes.

- 20 Dec Efforts to open a line of communications to Peiper fails.

- 23/24 Dec Clearing weather finally allowes Allied air power to arrive in strength. Peiper and 800 of his men escape from their pocket on foot.

According to a map I found the front on 20-26 December 1944 went straight through Stavelot but South of Malmedy and that the US 30th div. then counterattacked between Stavelot and Malmedy Southwards towards St. Vith.

[Don Capps]

Once, while we still living in Europe, my Dad once traced his journey from D-Day at Utah Beach in Normandy all the way up to the Czech border -- we had to stop since the Czechs and Soviet Army types were not too keen on Americans prowling around the countryside in those days. Dad remembered being a bit startled to seeing the stands and pits at Spa as they moved through the area. An officer in his battalion had some idea of European racing and told Dad that they were on a racing circuit. Later, the two of them sorted out where the circuit went and drove a few laps in a captured BMW moto with a sidecar, Dad doing the driving. Needless to say, that was later on after the war moved on they were back in that neck of the woods for a brief R&R. My uncle was captured when the 106th Infantry Division was overrun -- everyone in his tank destroyer company was killed or captured, the wounded dying from exposure.

[Arturo Pereira]

http://www.qmfound.com/malmedy.htm

too sad to transcript.

Arturo

[WGD706]

Here's a link to an interesting story of a fighter-bomber mission that took place over Malmedy, Christmas Eve, 1944 and how the story ended in 1995. First Lieutenant Roger Lane was from the 36th Fighter Group, 53rd Fighter Squadron of the 9th USAAF. My father was in the same squadron.
http://www.airspacem...95/ON/home.html
Warren

[MPea3]

the petrol dump was on the road running north out of stavelot to the west of the race course. this map, while way out of scale to in the area toward malmedy, is fairly accurate against mapquest in the area right around stavelot, including the old stavelot hairpin.

http://www.xs4all.nl...ps/stavelot.jpg

[Mozart]

Marty,

If you put "Malmedy Massacre" - "Stavelot" "Battle of Bulge"

into your web browser, there is much information there pertinent to the
Spa Francorchamps circuit....it's no wonder that every time I raced there
I had feelings of death and disaster!

Brian Redman

[Bladrian]

A reply by another hero of Spa - just a later age.

[WGD706]

Mozart
Mr Redman
I was wondering if you've had the opportunity to race on the 'new and improved version' of Spa? I realize that the cars and circuits of 20 and 30 years ago were quite dangerous compared to the current state of affairs, but many are crying about the "emasculation" of race tracks and how they all look the same now....Spa, Hockenheim for starters.
What I'm trying to find out is your opinion on how the circuits have changed..for the better or worse?
Thanks for your time and many thanks for the racing and the memories.
Warren

[CONOSUR]

Originally posted by WGD706
Mozart
Mr Redman
I was wondering if you've had the opportunity to race on the 'new and improved version' of Spa?

...many are crying about the "emasculation" of race tracks...

What I'm trying to find out is your opinion on how the circuits have changed..for the better or worse?

Thanks for your time and many thanks for the racing and the memories.
Warren

I second the question.

In addition, what are your thoughts regarding Hermann Tilke and his track designs?






Oh yes, and welcome to the best boards on the net.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by Don Capps
Once, while we still living in Europe, my Dad once traced his journey from D-Day at Utah Beach in Normandy all the way up to the Czech border.

Don, it sounds like your Dad and my father-in-law had similar experiences. He was luckier, though in that he didn't cross the English Channel until July 9 and then joined Patton's 3rd Army. He did have to spend 18 months in Iceland before going to Northern Ireland to train for D-Day. He wasn't thrilled about that! He was in the 5th Infantry Division and an early draftee. He year was almost finished when Pearl Harbor happened. I was lucky enough to have a month off one time and spent it researching my father-in-law's "travels" in Europe. On our 10th wedding anniversary, we re-traced his journey. It was one of the best trips we've ever taken.

Brian Redman, welcome aboard. I'm a "lurker." I read TNF religiously, but everyone knows so much more than I do, I just try to soak it all in.

[David J Jones]

There is a book in the 'After the Battle - Then and Now' series that is on the Battle of the Bulge.

I do not have a copy but I have seen it in Bookshops.

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by David J Jones
There is a book in the 'After the Battle - Then and Now' series that is on the Battle of the Bulge.

I do not have a copy but I have seen it in Bookshops.

Those After the Battle books are fantastic and would help answer your question as they have maps and photos from today.
Here is the link to the book: http://www.aftertheb...om/bobulge.html
There is also this book: http://www.aftertheb...om/bulgettl.htm

[Martyj]

Thanks to all who took time to answer my non-racing question.

This is just some incidental research I'm doing for my job. I work for a publisher of history magazines, and I am currently working on a story about the Malmedy Masacre.

The "After the Battle" magazine you mention is the very issue I am using for my primary research. In fact, the exact map that Mpea3 linked me to is from that issue.

I'm in charge of deciding which pictures will be part of this story, and I was hoping to find a picture of an identifyable spa racetrack landmark that has any sort of relation to the Battle of the Bulge. As near as I can tell, all major fighting takes place south and east of the course. And in the hills and valleys around. But nothing directly on the race track. Oh well.

[David J Jones]

Martyj

There is an additional book also on the After the Battle website. It is called the Battle of the Bulge through the Lens.

I am studying the one on Villiers-Bocage in Normandy. It is an excellent addition to the D-Day Then and Now.

[Martyj]

David,

My guess is we have that book here at the office.

I'd be surprised if there were many English language books on military history that we don't have in our vast reference library. Many foriegn language, too. Including bound copies of a German periodical from the 30's/40's called "Signaal." Kind of like their verion of "Life." Sometimes I'll come across old racing news articles on the Auto Unions and drivers of the day. Mine is a fun, educational job.

[Buford]

Brian Redman!!! Welcome. Vic Elford has posted recently with us here too. My favorite picture of you was taken I believe at Riverside. I don't know what the deal was but it looks like you were on the podium and were supposed to be tying the back of a girl's top. She was facing the crowd and you were behind her. You were kind enough to lift the top well up under her chin, revealing the joy mellons for the Hooter Historical record. Thanks!

[AdrianM]

Martyj, this could be a long shot but I remember Murray Walker saying that he fought in that area around the track in his tank regiment. It might be worth checking out his autobiography for info. As for pictures I can't think of any other sources other than the After the Battle series.

BTW, David J Jones does the Normandy then and now books have pictures of the memorials and museums in the area?. This is off topic but I am working on a similar project on Normandy. Thanks

[The Runner]

Brian... have you tried Grand Prix Legends yet??
It is nice to see your voice.
All the best
Randall

[David J Jones]

Adrianm

you asked

BTW, David J Jones does the Normandy then and now books have pictures of the memorials and museums in the area?. This is off topic but I am working on a similar project on Normandy. Thanks

Yes

The Pt2 book has details of the museums / memorials / cemetries in the Normandy Area

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by David J Jones
Adrianm

you asked

BTW, David J Jones does the Normandy then and now books have pictures of the memorials and museums in the area?. This is off topic but I am working on a similar project on Normandy. Thanks

Yes

The Pt2 book has details of the museums / memorials / cemetries in the Normandy Area

Excellent
Thanks for the info

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Spa was a historical place also in WW1. The town was Kaiser Wilhelms headquarter.

Stefan