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Racing drivers killed at war


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#51 Adam F

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Posted 24 November 2002 - 18:30

Jimmy,

Some updates for this thread from a recent visit to the FRC :-

Teddy Rayson, died 1 November 1939, at Beechingstoke, nr Devizes, Wiltshire, after RAF air crash
Richard Shuttleworth, died 2 August 1940, at Brightwell Baldwin, nr Benson, Oxfordshire, after RAF air crash
Tim Rose-Richards, died 7 October 1940, on HMS Daedalus (at sea)
Richard Bolster, died 28 June 1941, at Klein-Hansdorf, Germany, after RAF air crash
Johnny Wakefield, died 24 April 1942, at Wargrave, Oxfordshire, after air crash. He is shown as a test pilot for Vickers Armstrong, not as an RAF pilot. (His DOB is 5 April 1915, in London)
Norm Wilson, died 18 April 1942, at Charlton, nr Malmesbury, after RAF air crash
Peter Aitken died 4 August 1947, in Stockholm, after boating accident (DOB 22 March 1912, in London)

I have not yet found details of Berry or Maclure.

ADAM

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#52 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 November 2002 - 20:10

Didn't Percy Maclure effectively work himself to death during the war - he was not the victim of enemy action nor of an accident while engaged in military active service.

DCN

#53 Doug Nye

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Posted 24 November 2002 - 20:36

Originally posted by Adam F
Tim Rose-Richards, died 7 October 1940, on HMS Daedalus (at sea)...


I believe HMS Daedalus was actually His Majesty's Shorestation Daedalus, the Naval airfield and base in Hampshire. Eugene Esmonde VC - who led the six Swordfish biplanes in their doomed 'Charge of the Light Brigade' torpedo attack on the battle-cruisers 'Scharnhorst' and 'Gneisenau' during the Channel Dash (Operation Cerberus) escape from Brest back to Germany - is also listed as 'HMS Daedalus'. It was the Fleet Air Arm registration.

DCN

#54 Adam F

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Posted 24 November 2002 - 21:57

Doug,

Oops! :lol:

I have now confirmed that HMS Daedalus was the Fleet Air Arm base at Lee-on-Solent.
Tim Rose-Richards is listed on the Fleet Air Arm Roll of Honour for 1939-40 at the following site:-

http://www.fleetaira...y1_panel-6.html[/URL]

The Navy death record simply lists him (full name Thomas Essery Rose-Richards) as having died "on war service". It says nothing as to how/where he died

Regarding Percy Maclure, that would explain why I couldn't find him in Military war death records.

ADAM

#55 Gerr

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Posted 27 November 2002 - 17:40

Ran across an obit in CP & A (Feb 18, 1967),
"Lakewood, Calif. Jan. 13- Sgt. Jimmy Miller was buried Friday afternoon, following his death from enemy gunfire a week earlier in Vietnam.
The 20-year-old sprint car driving star was voted the co-rookie of the year in 1964 in the CRA where he had competed in the past three years. His best finish in the sprint cars was in 1965 when he ended up ninth in the club's final point standings. In 1966 he was in the army and only made five races, finishing 64th in the final points.
The son of long-time CRA car owner Harold Miller, Jimmy got his start in 1964 when his dad turned his car over to him as a graduation gift.
Miller shared the rookie of the year honors with another up-and -coming young driver, Bruce Walkup. Miller had been rated as a future Indianapolis star by many veterans."

#56 Jim Thurman

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Posted 27 November 2002 - 22:19

Originally posted by Gerr
Ran across an obit in CP & A (Feb 18, 1967),
"Lakewood, Calif. Jan. 13- Sgt. Jimmy Miller was buried Friday afternoon, following his death from enemy gunfire a week earlier in Vietnam.
The 20-year-old sprint car driving star was voted the co-rookie of the year in 1964 in the CRA where he had competed in the past three years. His best finish in the sprint cars was in 1965 when he ended up ninth in the club's final point standings. In 1966 he was in the army and only made five races, finishing 64th in the final points.
The son of long-time CRA car owner Harold Miller, Jimmy got his start in 1964 when his dad turned his car over to him as a graduation gift.
Miller shared the rookie of the year honors with another up-and -coming young driver, Bruce Walkup. Miller had been rated as a future Indianapolis star by many veterans."


Gerr, thanks for mentioning Jimmy Miller. I was going to post about him to this thread. I didn't know if the series was considered important enough for inclusion here, but the various regional Sprint Car series truly were the feeder series for Indy racing at the time.

I remember a CRA race in 1965 where the race reporter noted that Miller was the only driver wearing a fireproof suit. The writer, focusing on safety, thought it interesting that the youngest driver was the one showing the most sense.


Jim Thurman

#57 jarama

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:30

I've just found about another driver killed at the war:

Jack Harrop -'37 & '38 RAC Rally winner- killed during the WW2nd... without any further precission, though.

Carles.

#58 john medley

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 21:20

This one courtesy of Brian Lear:
Hugo Throssell Armstrong 19/6/1916 -- 5/2/43 Battle of Britain 'ace' Royal Australian Air Force Squadron Leader earlier known in Western Australia as ' Jimmy' Armstrong. When he scored two firsts and two seconds at the 1932 opening meeting at Brooklands 1 mile(at West Subiaco, now Perry Lakes Stadium), he was a mere 15 and used the name "Ralph de Palma"

#59 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 21:41

John... I think that's information that's missing from Terry Walker's book, isn't it? I mean the true identity of the inaugural winner at Brooklands?

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#60 David McKinney

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 22:26

No, he's named in the book as Hugo Armstrong, though his age is given as 20. He was a cousin of the famous (in WA) Eric Armstrong but apparently never raced after that one meeting

#61 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 00:24

Maybe his name was Hugo then? And 'Jimmy' was a nickname... or his second name?

#62 john medley

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 00:52

Name as shown above on death certificate and as David says the other details are in Terry Walker's book with the age shown incorrectly as 20. " Jimmy" was a nickname.He was a cousin of Eric Armstrong, '20s-'30s competitor in WA and son of of pioneer WA motorist Percy and Eric was also father of Historic racer Paul Armstrong who with his wife Jill is Turton and Armstrong Publishers. One day someone will write a book about this dynasty, included in the ranks being a WW2 Victoria Cross winner

#63 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 09:23

But who would publish such a tome?

#64 Brian Lear

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 11:21

Just bringing this thread back into view......

BEN TARR - mentioned earlier in this thread was killed in a road accident
at Mona Vale, Sydney on 25th February 1940
Sources - Sydney Morning Herald 26/2/40 and Death Certificate

Brian Lear

#65 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 11:27

John previously listed him as a war death, didn't he Brian?

I mean at least in the Bathurst book... possibly in the AGP book as well? One would have thought that George Reed would have mentioned this to John, especially as George finished up with the body off his car...

#66 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 11:58

Originally posted by Brian Lear
Sources - Sydney Morning Herald 26/2/40 and Death Certificate


How can you obtain a death certificate in Australia ?
Each time my friend Jean-Paul Lajarrige asked for one, they replied they were not allowed to provide it...
What is the legal way to get round this ?

#67 David McKinney

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 14:07

Originally posted by Ray Bell
George finished up with the body off his car...

So did Alec Mildren build a new body for the rest of the car?

#68 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 21:06

You don't have the Bathurst book, do you?

Alec raced the car with that body too, later George used the body with a different nose etc in the creation of the Monoskate...

It's all perfectly clear to me, John explained it.

#69 David McKinney

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 22:14

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You don't have the Bathurst book, do you?

Yes I do - but haven't learned it all by heart yet :lol:
For some inexplicable reason, I thought you must have been referring to an earlier G Reed Special

#70 Adam F

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 18:11

A further update to fill in a few gaps :-

Neil Berry, presumed dead 6 May 1941, Lost at sea on RAF Mission. Flt. Sgt. 21 Sqdn

Luis Fontes, died 12 October 1940, in air crash at Llysworney, Glamorgan (near Llandow), First officer in A.T.A.

Chris Staniland, died 26 june 1942, in air crash at Sindlesham, Berkshire, Chief Test Pilot for Fairey Aviation

and one non-war death :-

Percy Maclure, died 15 December 1944, of Tuberculosis, in a Sanatorium in Hatton Warwickshire.

#71 Richard Neale

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 20:50

John Bolsters brother was Richard, not sure how or when he died.

Was Joe Fry's brother also killed in WW2?

#72 dbw

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Posted 20 August 2003 - 23:17

jimmy;
as i recall, australian death certificates are difficult to get if there is any possibility the deceased could still be alive...while this may sound strange,the government hopes to protect innocents from potential fraud...once the birthdate exceeds 100 years old or so it gets a bit easier....still, for my relatives, i had to supply a form proving my actual relationship to the deseased.....if you really want a d/c for a non-relative there are professional researchers that can,for a fee, help....contact the australian genealogical society in sydney...[even then you have to deal with "copies of original documents" or "transcripts"...that is when a certified researcher can only visually observe the actual document and notes the data requested...it's actually way easier to get info from the mid 1800's than the 1970's!!]

#73 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 08:45

Originally posted by Richard Neale
John Bolsters brother was Richard, not sure how or when he died.

Originally posted earlier in this thread by Jimmy Piget
I found a Richard Vary Campbell Bolster, of the RAF, who died 28 June 1941 aged 29, and was buried at Hamburg.



#74 Richard Neale

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Posted 21 August 2003 - 10:01

:

Yes Tim ~ I missed that as I didn't realise there was a page 2!

I posted when I got to the bottom of page 1 !!!

Silly me ~~~~

I don't think Joe Fry's brother has been mentioned ~ I'll try to find his initials or first name.

#75 robert dick

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Posted 01 February 2004 - 12:53

Coming back to Georges Boillot's day of death :
There is a memorial stone at Montlhéry mentioning the 19th May 1916.
May 1916 is confirmed by
http://perso.wanadoo...esvictoires.htm (mentioning the 20th May 1916)
and
http://www.rootsweb....in/ww1/265a.htm

#76 Wimille

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 15:46

* Racing Drivers Killed at War:


1. WW1:

Georges Boillot 19/5/1916 Shot down in air flight near
Leslie Porter 22/11/1916 Prisionner by the German army, north of St.Omer


2. Spanish Civil War:

Guillermo Oliveras de la Riva, “Vega” Casualty of war, died at Battle Of Ebro


3. WW2:

Robert Benoist 12/9/1944 Member of the Resistance, arrested by Gestapo in Paris, hanged AT Buchenwald camp

Hugo Armstrong 5/2/1943 RAF missón at Battle of Britain

Neville Bakewell 17/8/1942

Neil Berry 6/5/1941 Lost at sea on RAF mission

Ulli Bigalke 12/8/1940 Luftwaffe missión in the Battle Of Britain, Channel shore in France

Richard Bolster 28/6/1941 RAF mission, crashed at Klein-Hansdorf

Gaspare Bona Aircraft testing accident

Russel Bowes 21/5/1943

Andrea Brezzi In action over Greece, plane in flames

Ernst Burgaller 2/2/1940 Luftwaffe mission

David Champeau

Fernand Crespelle 19/7/1944 Died in his house, near Tours, under a bombing on his town

Gilbert Dutrieu Shot by the French Resistance near Avre, perhaps in error

Andre Embiricos 23/5/1941 Off the Crete Island during a naval battle

Alfred Fane 18/7/1942 RAF mission, crashed near Duxford

Luis Fontes 12/10/1940 RAF mission, air crash at Llysworney

Fernand Gabriel 9/9/1943 Died in his house , in the Parisian suburbs, under a bombing on his town

Jack Harrop

Rudi Hasse 12/8/1942 German militar engineer, died at Russian front of a malicious sikness

Roy Hesketh 19/9/1944 Flight instructor during the war, died in a crash

Lotario Rangoni Machiavelli 2/10/1942 Testing a new plane near Pistoia

ionel de Marmier 30/12/1944 Air crash off the Baleares islands, probably due to sabotage or attentate for he was supposed to lift general De Gaulle this day.

Franco Mazzoti Plane accident over the Channel of Sicily

Violette Morris Executed by the French Resistance for she was a Gestapo agent

Teddy Rayson 1/11/1939 RAF mission, crash nearDevizes

Tim Rose-Richards 7/10/1940 Died on the sea at HMS Dedalus, off Lee-on-Solent

Chris Staniland 26/6/1942 Test pilot for Fairey Aviation, air crash at Sindlesham

Dick Shuttleworth 2/8/1940 RAF mission, air crash near Benson

William Thompson 12/2/1945 RAAF mission, crashed in the Marshall Islands

Jean Tremoulet 13/10/1944 Died during a Resistance mission at Sagelat

Johnny Wakefield 24/4/1942 Vickers Armstrong test pilot, crashed at Wargrave

William Grover Williams” 18/3/1945 Member of the Resistance, arrested by Gestapo in Paris, executed by the nazis at Sachshausen camp

Norm Wilson 18/4/1942 RAF mission, crashed at Charlton

Juan Zanelli Died in a camp where he was inmate for his Resistance involvement


4. Vietnam War:

Jimmy Miller Death from an enemy gunfire


5. Civil War in Zimbabwe:

Peter Parnell Executed by the Guerrilla

#77 anjakub

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 19:09

Stanislaw Holuj, one of the best Polish prewar motorbike and car driver, arrested by the Gestapo on 20 April 1940 in Myslenice and 7 days later executed in Krzeslawice near Kraków.

#78 Hieronymus

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 06:18

Originally posted by Wimille


5. Civil War in Zimbabwe:

Peter Parnell Executed by the Guerrilla




...either by savages from ZIPRA (Joshua Nkomo) or ZANLA (Robert Mugabe).

#79 ensign14

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:28

Originally posted by Wimille
Leslie Porter 22/11/1916 Prisionner by the German army, north of St.Omer

Was this an execution? Or a died of wounds?

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#80 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 13:52

Ernst Kotte died during a bomb raid in 1944, at Dresden.
Albert Broschek died during the war I think duríng a Hamburg bomb attack.
Georg Kimpel, a German Mercedes and Bugatti driver ein the late 20, died during the war I think at the eastern front.

#81 KJJ

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 14:52

Originally posted by ensign14

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Wimille
Leslie Porter 22/11/1916 Prisionner by the German army, north of St.Omer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Was this an execution? Or a died of wounds?

"Captain Leslie Porter, R.F.C., who has been missing since October 23rd last, is now reported to have died of wounds in Germany. He was a son of Captain David Porter R.A.M.C., Donegal, and was a pioneer of the motor industry in the North of Ireland, having founded the firm of Leslie Porter (Limited). He was an ardent racing motorist, and took part in the Paris-Madrid race. On that occasion his car was upset, and his companion, Mr Nixon, was killed. Last August Captain Porter flew from London to Belfast and gave several exhibition flights over the city." Source: Times newspaper 22nd January 1917.

#82 ensign14

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 15:39

Thanks KJJ. Glad to hear that, in a funny way, it seemed a bit out of character to execute someone in WW1 for being the enemy.

#83 ReWind

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 17:48

A little bit more about Lionel de Marmier
you can find here and here.

This is BabelFish's translation of the first link:

Alexandre Léonel Pierre, known as Lionel, from Marmier is born with Bellegarde-in-Walk (Hollow), December 4, 1897. He is the junior by François Raynald de Marmier and Adele Picaud who have already two wire and a girl. His/her father, who is useful in the infantry, is the first officer killed with the combat in the Vosges on August 25, 1914. His/her two brothers are useful in aviation. One will have the foot torn off during a combat in 1915, the other will be killed in aerial combat in 1916 in the Sum.
The First World War:
In 1916, it is mobilized, for the 18 years age, and is used as fighter pilot in Aviation. It fights until October 7, 1919. With the end of war 14-18, he is a Lieutenant of reserve, he records 6 approved victories, he is titular Military Cross, military decoration and named Chevalier of the Legion of Honour.
Civil pilot during the inter-war period:
From October 1919, it is test pilot at Nieuport. From August 20, 1921 at February 1, 1923 it is airline pilot to the Free-Rumanian Company of Aerial navigation where it has in load the line Paris/Bucarest (Romania) and Paris/Varsovie (Poland). October 27, 1921, Lionel de Marmier takes off with his/her friend Albert Deullin of Bucharest to open the 1st connection on Constantinople (Istanbul - Turkey). Then test pilot at Potez, it contributes to the development of Potez 28 with which it beats 9 world records of distance with load. He takes part in the adventure of air-mail with Jean Mermoz, Antoine of St Exupéry, Henri Guillaumet.... Lionel de Marmier one is also impassioned of car. Between 1923 and 1927, it contributes for great prices, in France (including 24 hours of Mans), in the United Kingdom, in Belgium, in Spain..... It is named Officer of the Legion of Honour, high 21 February 1930 then with the dignity of Commander of the Legion of Honor on January 20, 1936. It takes share with the War of Spain in 1936, with with dimensions of the young Spanish Republic.
The Second World war:
It is mobilized, as a commander of reserve of the Air Force, August 25, 1939. June 3, 1940, it cuts down two enemy planes above Villacoublay and another above Stamps, which changes to 9 the number of its air victories. It succeeds in gaining Plymouth (England) on June 27, 1940 and becomes thus the first senior officer of the Air to be lined up at the sides of General de Gaulle. Lieutenant Colonel de Marmier is appointed by General de Gaulle, March 22, 1941, to organize the units of hunting and bombardment in the Middle East. To this end, it is named Adjoint - Air of the Catroux General in Cairo (Egypt). General de Gaulle wishing to gather under the French rosettes all the personnel disseminated in the British units, Colonel de Marmier folds up the personnel and the material of the G.R.B.1 in Damas (Syria) on August 13, 1941. He melts then the Group "Lorraine", September 11. At the end of 1941, General de Gaulle entrusts to him the organization of lines of air transport in the Middle East from which it will be named director in 1943. He is named Colonel on March 15, 1942 and in 1943, receives, in Algiers, the congratulations of General de Gaulle. With the Release, Lionel de Marmier lands in France and accompanies General de Gaulle in Paris. At the time of the descent of the Elysées Fields, it is placed on the same row as the Generals. It is named Brigadier general Air on September 25, 1944. From November 24 at December 16, 1944, it controls the mission Paris/Moscow where will be signed the Franco-Russe pact between Stalin and of Gaulle. December 30, 1944, it finds death in full sky, at the 47 years age in a twin-engine aircraft Lockheed which brought back it from Algiers to France. On a purely posthumous basis, it is decorated with the medal of aeronautics on June 25, 1945 and the medal of Resistance on March 31, 1947.
Paid homages:
In Biscarosse (40) the seaplane Latécoère 631 (6 engines) of the transoceanic lines is baptized name of Lionel de Marmier. A private plane of the flying-club of Guéret (23) is called Lionel de Marmier. The municipal stage of Bellegarde Goes (23) door from there the name of Lionel de Marmier. Its name is given to the Military Air Base 101 of Toulouse Francazal (31). Close of aerospace in Blagnac (31) names a "street of the General of Marmier". In Avord (18) a room with the B.A. 702 door the name "Room of Marmier". To the museum of the air and space in Le Bourget (93) a commemorative plate recalls the names of all the Aces of the aviation of the 2 wars, where figure that of Lionel de Marmier. A street bears the name of Lionel de Marmier in Biscarosse beach (40).



#84 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 17:42

Two more to add to any list:

George Mason, d. Bordeaux, 13 September 1918. Ambulance driver for the Red Cross, killed in action.

S.F. Brock d. 1918. Lost at sea, off the coast of South-East England. Naval sinking (not sure whether accident or enemy action)

Both were Indianapolis 500 drivers.

#85 zoff2005

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 17:18

I used to work for Jean Tremoulet's daughter - she told me her father (who won Le Mans in 1938) had been shot in the head by a German sniper when he was riding flat out on a motorbike carrying some message for the resistance. I think he was part of the "Williams"/Benoist section. Incidentally there are MI5 files available at the National Archives in Kew about Benoist - his escapes when he was captured (twice - described in this months Motor Sport) sounded so improbable that he was suspected of being a double-agent when he got back to England!

#86 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 21:49

Originally posted by zoff2005
I used to work for Jean Tremoulet's daughter - she told me her father (who won Le Mans in 1938) had been shot in the head by a German sniper when he was riding flat out on a motorbike carrying some message for the resistance. I think he was part of the "Williams"/Benoist section. Incidentally there are MI5 files available at the National Archives in Kew about Benoist - his escapes when he was captured (twice - described in this months Motor Sport) sounded so improbable that he was suspected of being a double-agent when he got back to England!

SOE debrief files, surely? The story of Benoist's escapes was first told in MRD Foot's "SOE in France", published in 1966. And here.;)

#87 Joe Saward

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 10:19

One of motor racing's greatest mysteries is solved!

There has long been speculation about the fate of the first winner of "W Williams", the winner of the first Monaco Grand Prix in 1929 who went on to become a British secret agent in World War II.
Officially, he was executed at Sachsenhausen concentration camp, near Berlin, on March 19 1945, the last date on which he was seen alive.
There were some who believed that "Williams" did not die and there have even been claims that he worked underground for MI6 in the post-war era and then returned to live with his wife in France, under an assumed name. These stories have never been very credible and in recent months documents have finally emerged from the KGB archives in Moscow which indicate that an SS Sergeant called Kurt Eccarius, who was in command of the special high security prison inside Sachsenhausen, where "Williams" spent his last months, had admitted to the KGB in 1946 or 1947 that he had taken "Williams" and three others, including Francis Suttill, another celebrated British agent known as "Prosper", to their execution on March 23 1945.
It is not clear whether Eccarius actually shot the four men but he certainly had a shocking record of brutality.
Unlike some others, Eccarius paid for his transgressions. He was one of 16 Sachsenhausen officials tried by a Soviet military tribunal at Berlin in October 1947 and was fortunate that at that time the Soviets had suspended the use of the death penalty. He was sentenced to life imprisonment with hard labour in the coal mines on the Polar Sea coast. He survived and in 1955 was released under an amnesty instigated by President Nikita Krushchev. Soon afterwards he was arrested by the West German authorities and was tried by a court in Coburg on charges of shooting six prisoners during a forced march when Sachsenhausen was evacuated in April 1945. He was convicted in November 1962 and jailed for four years. When he was released the German authorities arrested him again and he was charged with having participated in the murders of other Sachsenhausen prisoners, possibly including Josef Stalin's son Yakov. In December 1969 he was convicted and sentenced to eight and a half years imprisonment.
Perhaps the alternative romantic version of the fate of "Williams" is more palatable but if nothing else the mystery has finally been solved.

#88 Joe Saward

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 10:22

I have not found any references to Tremoulet in my researches into Williams, Benoist and Wimille. There are some hints of the involvement of Robert Mazaud and, of course, the unspoken help received from Ettore Bugatti. There is also some involvement from engineer Pierre Leygonie. If anyone knows more about Tremoulet I would love to know.

#89 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 22:42

Mazaud was described to me by Toulo de Graffenried - I believe - as having been very much detested within the racing world of the 1940s for having - reputedly - been an ardent collaborator rather than a resistant. His death in the Maserati was not mourned, I was told. I have NO other evidence to support such a story/charge. But the true story of Mazaud's wartime activities would certainly be of interest.

DCN

#90 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 00:10

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Mazaud was described to me by Toulo de Graffenried - I believe - as having been very much detested within the racing world of the 1940s for having - reputedly - been an ardent collaborator rather than a resistant. His death in the Maserati was not mourned, I was told. I have NO other evidence to support such a story/charge. But the true story of Mazaud's wartime activities would certainly be of interest.

DCN


Hear hear.

I believe that Mazaud had made large amounts of money by supplying transport services to the Germans. But at the same time he was supposedly also aiding the resistance in a similar capacity.

The former being obvious to l'homme dans la rue, the latter less so.

In the immediate postwar period, of course, no-one had been a collabo and everyone had been a résistant. Everyone had hidden a Jew ..... :rolleyes:

#91 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 00:29

And I've mentioned before... Louis Chiron was seemingly ostracised by his family for going to Mercedes in the thirties...

#92 fivestar

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 00:33

Joe, I have always been led to believe that Williams was betrayed by a very close friend [possibly a fellow racing driver]?. Since you seem to have done some research on Williams can you shed any further light on this. 5*

#93 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 00:39

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And I've mentioned before... Louis Chiron was seemingly ostracised by his family for going to Mercedes in the thirties...

It wasn't just his family. There were also calls for him to return his Légion d'Honneur, which he had been awarded after Delage's World Championship in 1927.

#94 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 06:46

Originally posted by Vitesse2

It wasn't just his family. There were also calls for him to return his Légion d'Honneur, which he had been awarded after Delage's World Championship in 1927.

Why did Chiron get an award for that?

#95 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 10:34

Dunno... but I'll bet Dennis never knew he had it...

#96 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 12:15

Originally posted by fivestar
Joe, I have always been led to believe that Williams was betrayed by a very close friend [possibly a fellow racing driver]?. Since you seem to have done some research on Williams ...


Errrr - doesn't this just about take the biscuit for understatement.....?

#97 fivestar

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 22:25

Doug,
Scarcasim noted. Obviously you know something I don't!!! - 5*

#98 Doug Nye

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 22:48

'You seem to have done some research on Williams...' certainly sounds pretty sarcastic if you have read Joe's book. Poor guy has obviously knocked himself out trying to tease out the story...as he is goes to considerable lengths to emphasise.

DCN

#99 fivestar

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 23:41

Being out here in Cebu I have not read nor seen any book from Joe neither seen reference to one on this thread.
Since obviously you are in a position to enlighten me. when was this book published and what is the title?
5*

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#100 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 00:03

The Grand Prix Saboteurs :)