82 replies to this topic

[LaurensDeJong]

Could anyone explain to me in detail where the jump at KM 13 on the Nürburgring's Nordschleife was? It should be Kesselchen, but that's still a long stretch of road.

[2F-001]

(Is this Laurens from the Ringers List? - if so, hello - if not, well, hello!)

I saw mention of this last week whilst bookshop-browsing... and couldn't really think where this might be. It was in one of the recent books of motorsport photo's from the fifties and sixties - is it Maurice Rowe or something? can't recall, but it's the one that has a good deal of narrative as well as the pictures. The author described 'working' up near Klostertal/Steilestrecke/Karussel at a major meeting and a fellow tog/scribe mentioned a place such as you describe, which he hadn't seen or heard of before. He then described walking back down Kesselchen toward Bergwerk and could hear in the mid-distance the sound of revs rising as cars went light (presumably 'jumping'). I din't read on, but wish i had now...

If it was at 13km, then I guess that's the location on the old, full NS (measuring from ''T13'' today, 13km would, I estimate, be nearer Hohe Acht). 13km, I reckon, would put us 1000metres or so after the exit of Bergwerk, past the first long curve to the left and then just after the lesser gentle curve to the left. It takes me soooo long to get up Kesselchen I get a bit lost between all the sweeps there, but I think there's a sort of bridge where the pathway goes under the track at that point, and the track notes in Ulrich Thompson book ''Das Nürburgring Fahrer-handbuch'' actually shows a slight crest there. Could that be the spot? Would this be a feature that that was smoothed out in the big 1970 ''refurbishment''?

[Mark Beckman]

Using the reasonbly modelled Nurb in GPL game and Walter Rolhs Porsche in car lap, the 3 humps in that area are at

11.4 kms, (Bergwerk at 10.4 kms) during a series of left handers

13.0 kms, about halfway between Kesselchen and the Karussel just before a RH kink leading up to the righthand hairpin that is before the Karussel.

13.6 kms, halfway between that righthand hairpin and the Karussel.

In the incar video, Rohl gets a little air at these 3 points.

[LaurensDeJong]

Tony,

Yes, this is that Laurens and hello, too.

The book that you quote I think is Track Pass, photographs by Geoff Goddard and text by Doug Nye. It's the same that I mention on the Ringers list. I have it at home, it's just that I won't be home for a while.

KM 13.0 on the old Nordschleife would actually be in Klostertal, such as Euan describes it on the Ringers list. I just don't feel the pictures I've seen from that location match Klostertal.

[2F-001]

I think I've mis-counted my kilometeres... checking the various maps (no two are the same!) and the local Ordnance Survey-equivalent, the bridge I mentioned would be nearer 12k and 13k would be near what the locals call Angstkurve or Mutkurve (?)(the lefthander before Steilestrecke) as Mark deduces from GPL - and just before Klostertal...

Ah! as I write i see you have just posted that, Laurens...

Geoff Goddard! that sounds like the one! From the passage I skipped over gave me an impression of a spot further back towards Bergwerk. Guess I need to buy the book! Thinking it was a different book I had missed the Doug connection...

(My browser has taken umbrage over something and I can't get into Ringers at the moment...)

[Ray Bell]

Hang on... is this the one?



...with apologies to whomever posted it previously and encouraged me to use it as my desktop...

[LaurensDeJong]

Ray, no, that's Brünnchen. Another jump that fell prey to the 1971/1972 rebuild.

This image of Brünnchen pre-1972 was posted on touristenfahrer.de:



and this one, during the rebuild:



Both priceless, but very Brünnchen and not at all KM 13.

[Mark Beckman]

Those pictures are at 16.3 kms

[Mark Beckman]

Sometimes when I see supposably old films of the Nurb, like in the 30's, I see a banked very wide curve.

Can anyone verify this please ?

Please dont reply "The Karussel".

[LaurensDeJong]

Mark,

That sounds like Nordkehre, or perhaps Betonkurve. It looked banked, but the banking wasn't.

See this aerial view:

[BobM]

Hi Guys,

"Track Pass" is the book that mentions this jump. If any of you don't have this book, I
highly recommend it. Very entertaining.

Bob

[LittleChris]

Possibly it's the point at which Herbert Muller lost control in wet during the 1981 1000Kms and crashed into Bobby Rahals abandoned car with fatal results ? This was the right hander before Klostertal and the cars apparently usd to catch air at this point.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Sometimes when I see supposedly old films of the Nurb, like in the 30s, I see a banked very wide curve.

Can anyone verify this please ?

Please dont reply "The Karussell".

Not the Karussell... this appears to be between the left and right hander shown above...



Do those cracks in the concrete look familiar?

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by LaurensDeJong
and this one, during the rebuild:



Both priceless, but very Brünnchen and not at all KM 13.

So they held gravel rallies when the track was being rebuilt!?! Bizarre:)

- MichaelJP

[AutoDelta]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Using the reasonbly modelled Nurb in GPL game and Walter Rolhs Porsche in car lap, the 3 humps in that area are at

11.4 kms, (Bergwerk at 10.4 kms) during a series of left handers

13.0 kms, about halfway between Kesselchen and the Karussel just before a RH kink leading up to the righthand hairpin that is before the Karussel.

13.6 kms, halfway between that righthand hairpin and the Karussel.

In the incar video, Rohl gets a little air at these 3 points.

Mark,

What in-car lap is that? Is it on a VHS video that can be bought from somewhere or did you download it. I'd love to see it.

Thanks,
JS

[Holger Merten]

Here an overview on the ring, You see some sign with "toi, toi, toi" in it, which means hopefully good luck, also at KM 13. It's a map from an security course. And all maps are from TNF Member Darren Galpin and his fantastic database:

http://www.silhouet....t/tracks/nurb.g



Have a look at this detail on KM 13. And KM 13 in which year. The Ring has chnaged his face in the last 75 years.
http://www.silhouet..../tracks/nurb6.g

[Mark Beckman]

Thank you Laurens and Ray, thats the one and its been bugging me for years !

Another problem solved at TNF

Holger, your map is missing the section from the startline passed the pits then feeds back and around and passes behind the pits as in 1967.

[Mark Beckman]

Originally posted by AutoDelta


Mark,

What in-car lap is that? Is it on a VHS video that can be bought from somewhere or did you download it. I'd love to see it.

Thanks,
JS

http://www.geocities...y/Linkspage.htm

look for "lap1" and "lap2"

If you have trouble I can throw it up on a server for you.

[Holger Merten]

Right Mark, I think themap shows the old "Nordschleife" additional and in the right layout with a map of the new GP-course. When I drove fromerly over the ring I always took the old course, without the new section, cause you will change the atmosphere radical.

[Flying Panda]

Correct me if i am wrong, but there was a layout of the Nürburgring that bypassed the Karussel.
It can be seen in the above diagrams.
It is my understanding that this layout was used quite a few times, and was uphill.
Is there any chance that this mysterous jump was part of this bypass?

[Ray Bell]

It was use, yes... by Caracciola if I remember correctly...

To set a magic qualifying time. I wonder what year that was... or was it Nuvolari in 1935 doing some stirring in practice?

At any rate, this wasn't part of the circuit and was only used illicitly by a competitor (or two?) to gain an advantage over his peers.

In the same way, Caratsch drove his car into the ditch lining the inside of the Karussell and found it was okay to use that as a banking, leading to the ditch being concreted and used as a regular part of the circuit.

[tyrrellp34]

One should mention that the kilometres marks at the old Nürburgring are changing all the time. For example if the track is open for the public the “Start” is at Antoniusbuche which is just before the bridge on the main straight. This means that the Kesselchen starts (just for 20,8KM) at KM 11 and ends at KM 13.
Look at this link:

http://www.pro-steil.../kessel1967.htm

here you can see Jim Clark jumping at the Brünnchen.

The jump was just behind the left-hand corner (uphill) and after the jump was the second left-hand corner. After the jumps at Brünnchen and Kesselchen were removed the track was much faster and much more dangerous.

[2F-001]

Strange that the page is headed ''Kesselchen 67'' though, as the top picture is surely at Brunnchen as well...

(Interesting - if you count the kilometres starting at the toll-gates (as you might for a typical public-day Bridge-to-Gantry time, not a wholly wise thing to do in my book - timing your laps - but many do it! ) then from Hatzenbach onwards the km points should be fairly similar to the old full NS. The map above that has km13 near Hohe Acht is for the current NS, starting at the S/F point near the point where the new GP circuit can be linked onto the NS proper.)

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman



http://www.geocities...y/Linkspage.htm

look for "lap1" and "lap2"

If you have trouble I can throw it up on a server for you.

I haven't downloaded them, but aren't they the yellow RUF Porsche laps as driven by well-known sideways expert (lunatic) Stefan something-or-other?

Someone more knowledgeable than me should be able to fill on the details on this famous and very exciting video:)

- MichaelJP

[mikko-ville]

Originally posted by MichaelJP


I haven't downloaded them, but aren't they the yellow RUF Porsche laps as driven by well-known sideways expert (lunatic) Stefan something-or-other

- MichaelJP

Yes, those laps are from video called Faszination on the Nurburgring. Driver is Stefan Roser and car is Porsche 911 RUF CTR "yellow bird"

[MarkWill]

Holy Cojones!!! What a track!! Just watched the video - this must have been the most terrifying track ever invented, especially in the rain! Even more respect for the drivers of the Golden Era. Phew!

[Holger Merten]

Mark, I was sitting as "co-pilot" with Hans Stuck in an Audi S4. We were the security car during the "Eifel Klassik" on the "Nordschleife". I was always near a heartattack. It was raining, and beforr evry curve I used my virtual brakes, but he just used his brakes 200 or 300 m later. Every curve a slide, although it rains, always full power. On the Döttinger Höhe 285 km/h (in the rain). When we stopped in the boxes, we need new brakes and some new tyres. Unfortunetly I don't have the time, but it was unbelievable. Since then, I know I couldn't drive a car.

[MarkWill]

I'm not sure if I would count myself lucky or unlucky to have to co-pilot an ex-F1 driver in the rain at this track. It seems to be very narrow - difficult to overtake?

[Holger Merten]

Mark, it was an Audi quattro, that makes things much easier. And it has always some "mmmh" slides, or better we were sliding through every curve. It was a soft driven round. But my impressions were unbelievable. Ahh, and he drove most of the track singlehanded, talking to me. And I won't forget it.

[Ray Bell]

As we think about the jumps on the Nordschleife, we should keep in mind what's really important...

Or, as John Surtees told me, "I want the rear wheels to come down first so I can get on the power sooner!"

[Barry Lake]

Lucky man, Holger, having a ride around the 'Ring with Hans Stuck. A friend of mine, Murray Taylor from New Zealand, then a journalist with Motoring News, had a ride around there with Stuck in the BMW he'd just used to break the touring car lap record - in the 1970s - and at almost the same speed. A photo of Stuck, over a jump, was published on the cover of Motor Sport at that time. Black car, red (pink?) and blue BMW Racing stripes, from memory.

In the 1980s I arrived at the Nurburgring for one of my many visits to do laps. I watched Stuck testing a BMW M1 for its owner, who was racing in the series they had at that time (in conjunction with F1 GPs, wren't they?)

I saw Stuck just after he'd finished driving, near the old Sport Hotel, and went to introduce myself to him. When he heard I was a motoring writer, he said, "What a shame I didn't know you were here. The testing I was doing wouldn't have been affected by having a passenger. You could have come with me."

Damn! Another one to add to my list of "nearlies".

[Holger Merten]

Yes Barry, it was some of the great moments in beeing a fan of cars at all. And Hans made it perfect, so I'd just have to look smart, but I didn't fell well.

Back to our KM 13 discussion, yesterday I saw an old map from the 30s of the Ring, and there "KM 13" is long before the "KM 13" point of the 70s. Ever thought about it? I have to compare the map with some newer once and bring back the results.

[mat1]

About the bypass

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It was use, yes... by Caracciola if I remember correctly...

To set a magic qualifying time. I wonder what year that was... or was it Nuvolari in 1935 doing some stirring in practice?

At any rate, this wasn't part of the circuit and was only used illicitly by a competitor (or two?) to gain an advantage over his peers.

I believe is it was Stuck sr. Have to look it up though.

As I recall the story, Stuck used it for realizing a very quick qualifying time. he had asked someone to open the gate at the bottom of the Steilstecke. In the qulaifying lap, he went straigt on at Klostertal, and drove up the Steilstrecke. While doing so, he realized he hadn't checked whether the gate at the top of the Steilstrecke was open. Luckily it was.

The part referred to was the socalled Steilstrecke, and it cuts short the part between the Klostertal 180 degree righthander and Hohe Acht. So the Karussell is cut out.

I am told the Steilstrecke (steep track) was included for automobile testing. It is very steep indeed, I think 20% or something.

mat1

[Mozart]

In my day, the left handed "jump" was generally refered to as being at the 13 K mark. This was not one of the "high" jumps, but you had to ease off the throttle as the rear wheels went light.

In 1968 the heavy Ford GT40 left the road 12 times per lap.

In 1970, driving the John Wyer Gulf Porsche 908/3, we had had a slow pit stop and dropped back to 5th place. In coming back up to the front I caught Leo Kinnunen (co-driving with Pedro Rodriguez) driving the sister 908/3.

Although not looking to pass right there, non the less I was less than a car's length behind him
when he clipped the bank on the left - and immediately flew into the air.....I went underneath him!

Such fun!

Brian Redman

[RSNS]

Originally posted by Mozart

Although not looking to pass right there, non the less I was less than a car's length behind him
when he clipped the bank on the left - and immediately flew into the air.....I went underneath him!

Such fun!

Brian Redman

Big round objects!!

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by Mozart
Although not looking to pass right there, non the less I was less than a car's length behind him
when he clipped the bank on the left - and immediately flew into the air.....I went underneath him!

Such fun!
Brian Redman

Brian, I hope you meant that you went underneath him inadvertantly rather than deliberately spotting the opportunity and nipping past!

You've done things for real that most of us have only done in computer games!

- MichaelJP

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by mat1
About the bypass

I believe is it was Stuck sr. Have to look it up though.


mat1

This came up on another thread once. I had thought, for a long time, that it was Louis Chiron who had pulled this stunt, to outwit the two German teams in qualifying. But when I looked up the books, I could find no grid that indicated this was so.

Then again, it might have been an Eifelrennen or something, rather than a German GP.

Of course, the story I read might have been in Neubauer's book, which would explain a lot.

But, if this incident DID occur, I for one would like to know the real story.

Surely among all the interested TNFers we should be able to find it - even the original story, if not the facts to support it.

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by Mozart
In my day, the left handed "jump" was generally refered to as being at the 13 K mark. This was not one of the "high" jumps, but you had to ease off the throttle as the rear wheels went light.

In 1968 the heavy Ford GT40 left the road 12 times per lap.

In 1970, driving the John Wyer Gulf Porsche 908/3, we had had a slow pit stop and dropped back to 5th place. In coming back up to the front I caught Leo Kinnunen (co-driving with Pedro Rodriguez) driving the sister 908/3.

Although not looking to pass right there, non the less I was less than a car's length behind him
when he clipped the bank on the left - and immediately flew into the air.....I went underneath him!

Such fun!

Brian Redman

I've seen, heard, and used "passing left, passing right, passing high ..."

I guess this would qualify as passing low.

Amazing stuff, Brian. When's the book, mate? Or where, if it already exists? I would love to read it.

[Newtown]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
Correct me if i am wrong, but there was a layout of the Nürburgring that bypassed the Karussel.
It can be seen in the above diagrams.
It is my understanding that this layout was used quite a few times, and was uphill.
Is there any chance that this mysterous jump was part of this bypass?

Die Steilstrecke or The Steep Stretch.

It was, if I understand correctly, used as the final section of a hillclimb. It was used as part of the Ring when changes were being made to the Karussell. Anyone who would know better please correct me. BTW, it was a 27% slope...talk about hairy!!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted.....
This came up on another thread once. I had thought, for a long time, that it was Louis Chiron who had pulled this stunt, to outwit the two German teams in qualifying. But when I looked up the books, I could find no grid that indicated this was so.

Then again, it might have been an Eifelrennen or something, rather than a German GP.

Of course, the story I read might have been in Neubauer's book, which would explain a lot.

But, if this incident DID occur, I for one would like to know the real story.

Surely among all the interested TNFers we should be able to find it - even the original story, if not the facts to support it.

I have certainly read it... and I think I've only ever read two German-based biographies (I do think it was written in a first person style...).

The Neubauer book, I am sure, does not have anything about it.

But the other book I no longer have (I think I actually borrowed Mike Kable's copy to read), and that was Caracciola's book.

I may be getting confused with the Karussell issue, however, so the other place I may have read it was in a R & T or SCG article in the sixties. In this case it was Nuvolari for sure.

[LaurensDeJong]

Originally posted by Mozart
In my day, the left handed "jump" was generally refered to as being at the 13 K mark. This was not one of the "high" jumps, but you had to ease off the throttle as the rear wheels went light.

That must be it, though. I'm still confused, however, Brian, what left handed "jump" is this? Coming out of what is sometimes called Mutkurve/Angstkurve?

This is the quote from the Geoff Goddard/Doug Nye book Track Pass that I referred to earlier in this thread:

The 13-kilometre jump. We had heard there was another yump, a different one
from the famous descent at Brünnchen, and it was out somewhere around the
13km post, a brisk walk anti-clockwise against the racing direction, back
from the corner below the Karussel [sic]. So one year we put on our hiking
boots and tramped back along the circuit towards Bergwerk and then we could
hear the *wang* and *kathump* of Formula 1 cars yumping and hey presto we
had found the crest.

These two shots both come from practice there in 1969, showing Jacky Ickx
aviating the Brabham BT26A in which he ultimately beat the previously
unbeatable Jackie Stewart (opposite) in Ken Tyrrell's Matra-Cosworth MS80. I
shot Ickx from the inside of the circuit, and Stewart from the outside. So
long as your hearing was intact there was no problem crossing the track. It
was after all surprisingly narrow. The real problem here was photographic,
in that cars were totally hidden until they leaped into view. We had only
the approaching sound to judge by and within reason there was no telling who
was going to appear in the viewfinder until he was there. The other problem,
of course, was that he wouldn't be there very long. . .

[Uwe]

Concerning the Steilstrecke shortcut: AFAIK it has never been used for racing, only for car tests. It is in fact so steep that in these tests (probably during acceleration testing) a car flipped backwards and landed upside down (at least old stories told so).

The 13 km jump: In GPL there are two around Angstkurve. One in the braking zone for Angstkurve and one directly in the RH corner leading into Klostertal. I would suggest from the old numbers that it had to be the one in the braking zone. Unfortunately I don't know how precise GPL models this part of the Ring.

Isn't there a video from a BBC report from 1967 about the Ring? I have a short part of it showing Hubert Hahne in an F2 car running down from Wehrseifen to Breidscheid, and the video looked as if it was showing the Ring section for section.

[Doug Nye]

I've just asked Geoff Goddard to confirm all this malarkey about the km 13 jump. It was adjacent to the old original Nordschleife's 13th km marker - true - and it was reached on foot by photographers and tagging-along journalists from the foot of the Karussel-bypassing test hill, on foot down through the woods - against the direction of circuit travel. Geoff photgraphed airborne cars at the Flugplatz first - rather unsatisfactory from the photographers' point of view, then at Brunnchen - perhaps the most spectacular of all - then at Km 13, and later very close to the main public road just before the entry to the main straight, beyond the Schwalbenschwanz. He calls this area Pflanzgarten but that's before the Schwalbenschwanz, so I think he's got it screwed up slightly in memory. Ther might well have been another yump there too, however...I can't recall it.

DCN

[LaurensDeJong]

Doug, thanks. The reason I posted here is that I somehow hoped you'd find out from Geoff. And just when I had given up on that and quoted from a book you've (presumably) received royalties from, you re-emerge and satisfy my curiosity.

Now, Steilstrecke. It has been used for racing. For instance, the six-day endurance race for motorcycles in 1930 required motorcycles 300cc and under to climb up the Steilstrecke four times between 12am and 2pm. In the race report I have of that event, it is noted that the distance for regular laps (Nordschleife and Südschleife combined) added up to 28.265 kilometers, and minus the Karussell loop this came to 27,325. In other words, the short cut saved (the possibly apocryphal) Hans Stuck 940 meters.

I've also heard, but have no document, of other pre-war races that included the Steilstrecke, including a 1930s regularity test where marshals with wooden blocks were at the ready to prevent stopped cars from rolling back. And old-timers have told me that up to the 1960s the Steilstrecke was accessible during Touristenfahrten (when the Nürburgring is open to the general public).

Which would make sense, seeing as all of the Nürburgring was made for racing, testing, and tourist driving, and not just one of those three.

[Uwe]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
... and later very close to the main public road just before the entry to the main straight, beyond the Schwalbenschwanz. He calls this area Pflanzgarten but that's before the Schwalbenschwanz, so I think he's got it screwed up slightly in memory. Ther might well have been another yump there too, however...I can't recall it.

Doug,

there are two jumps at Pflanzgarten. One is in the braking zone for the Pflanzgarten right hander and it is in fact very close to the public road. But I am shure he meant the second one, which is also called Pflanzgarten II and really scary. Stefan Bellof wrecked his Porsche there in a big way. Both are still existing today.

[LaurensDeJong]

Oh, and Uwe, that Hubert Hahne film is in part available on the 1967 report of the German GP called The Ringmasters, available from Duke Video. Unfortunately, it doesn't show the entire lap, the 13-km point being among the missing bits. It does show how the car jumps in the first left-hander of Schwalbenschwanz (after the bridge). This yump has been completely flattened out during the rebuild of 1971. Today you don't even realize you're crossing a bridge, and the left-hander that follows it is blind but smooth.

Doug, this may be the other jump Geoff talked about. I know he said "close to the main public road" and "beyond Schwalbenschwanz" but it's the latest possible real jump I can think of before the Döttinger Höhe straight. Any chance of showing a picture he shot from there? I'm just being greedy, you understand.

On the other hand, it could just be Pflanzgarten, which is of course right next to the public road.

[Wolf]

Guys, Hahne video can be downloaded from Seasons F1 Epoca site (together with, in another thread mentioned, onboard footage of Moss' '61 Ring drive and Fangio doing a lap of Modena)...

http://www.seasonf1....ages/Epoca.html

[RSNS]

Originally posted by Wolf
Guys, Hahne video can be downloaded from Seasons F1 Epoca site (together with, in another thread mentioned, onboard footage of Moss' '61 Ring drive and Fangio doing a lap of Modena)...

http://www.seasonf1....ages/Epoca.html

Hi, Wolf:

Thank you for the link, it looks great, but how does one read the files?

Cheers,

RSNS

[2F-001]

Going back to the references to Caracciola's first exploration of the ditch at the Karussell - - on the official maps mounted on display around the track (eg by the 'Grün Hölle' and the Breidscheid toll-gate) said corner is actually labelled ''Caracciola-Karussell''.

[J.J. Laakso]

Hi everyone, my first post here.

First I must say that this is one of the most interesting threads I've ever seen about The Mighty Ring since I'm extremely interested to know what the 'Green Hell' really was like in the golden years of F1.

Almost a year ago I started a thread about the jumps in the RSC GPL-forum . Didn't get much replies/info, but this thread is excellent reading. You can find my RSC thread here

Thank you very much Doug Nye for clearing out the location of 13km jump. My 1960's ring maps show that 13km mark was really where you explained, but it would be great to see what that section looked like back then. In GPL there's no way to get airborne there. I found this pic from the collections of mine and it says it's from the 13km jump, but the 13km section wasn't downhill and the pic looks like it's from Brunnchen (16.3kms)

[ url=http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/jessel/Ring1967/Nurb67.jpg ][ img ]http://sivut.koti.so...Nurb67thumb.jpg [ /img ][ size=1 ]click for larger image[ /size ][ /url ]

Edit: Just read about posting images so here's the changed image. I hope it works...not

:

OK, i tried several different "codes", but that thumbail thing seems to be impossible for me so here is the link to the picture

http://sivut.koti.so...1967/Nurb67.jpg



I've had that Hubert Hahne 1967 video for a long time now and I hate the fact that it doesn't show the full lap. They must have recorded the whole thing and it's sad to think that they must have the whole lap somewhere and we'll never see it