24 replies to this topic

[Yoquai]

hi all,

need some help here...

does anybody knows where to find the information about the rules and regulation of overtaking in a race?

last weekend i have a kart racing session with some folks, and there was an accident where my friend got hit from behind by the guy behind him. the guy said that my friend was too slow, and didn't give him a chance to overtake, so he thought the only way for him to get faster was by getting rid off my friend at the front.

my friend was really pissed off, and told the guy that he can not overtake someone like that. and he thought that he has the right to defend his position and close any door that would allow that guy to overtake him.

until today, we're having a serious argument among us in regards to the overtaking rules, ethics, and stuff, to be applied on our next racing sessions.

so guys, would appreciate any advise on this matter...

thanks and cheers!
Yoq

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Yoquai

I don't think you'll find specific rule about overtaking, even "who has front of his car ahead of competitor's front of car, has also right of racing line" is just unofficial rule ;)

[312 PB]

racing incident
to be settled off track
see senna/irvine/suzuka
way back when for advices

[Bex37]

Your friend will have received a rule book as part of his license training. The rules for overtaking will be in there.

One thing your friend needs to remember is that it is dangerous to block other drivers who have more speed than him. Sure, the rules may say he is allowed to take the corner if he is in front, but it won't do him much good to crash out in every race because other drivers do not expect him to cut across the corner whilst he is going so slow. Better to gradually pick up the pace and leave room for the quick drivers. Once he is within half a second a lap, its then time to start making them work for their passing moves.

[Yoquai]

Bex37,
we don't have that kind of rule book as part of license training here..!

my friend told us that the guy was using his rear as a brake at every corner.. he have to work very hard to keep the kart on the track. that is why he looks more quiker than him. if the guy was surely quicker than him, he should be able to overtake at any lines as there are lots of places where he can overtake... i didnt witness the accident as i was on the front of them , but judging from where the accident was happened (that was right on the corner) i can tell that the guy behind him didn't even brake at all and use my friend's rear as a brake! (do i sound a bit bias here?? )

to settled a racing accident off the track like what senna did to irvine could be put into a consideration, 312 PB..!

anyway, thanks a lot for your comments, gentlemen! though i'm still looking forward to have that kind of rule book and stuff... if they ever exist somewhere...

cheers!
Yoq

[MattC]

I think the true-but-frustrating answer to this is that the rules in most categories are pathetically vague. The FIA rules (i.e. that govern F1) are on the web if you can be bothered to search for them, and I've seen some of the UK rulebooks.
Basically they tend to say that;
- the driver in front has the right to choose his own line,
- if a faster driver comes up behind, you should not block him (I think this is meant to refer to backmarkers, maybe not!),
- no driver should deliberately cause an accident.

It doesn't take much intelligence to see that these are hopelessly vague guidelines, hugely open to interpretation. As far as I can tell, 90% of incidents are resolved based on precedent in that race series.

(If Bex37 can quote her local rules, and they are more informative, I would be delighted to hear them )

Is it any wonder that there are so many "racing incidents"?!?

Matt
p.s. Using the vehicle in front as a brake is generally considered "at fault" - but it can be hard to prove in practice.

[Nasty McBastard]

rules on passing arent all that vague when you use logic, because, really, its pretty simple.

forgitting the being lapped situation.

guy infront can protect his position, but no weaving...pretty simple....

guy behind has to be alongside a certain distance (half way.... to the b pillar.... whatever) to claim the corner....pretty simple.

otherwise, its same as road rules, rear end accidents = bloke behinds fault

[Jeff Henry]

LOL, just ask a MS fan Yoquai

[Liquid]

Karting is a very different sport to F1 etc. Trying to draw a comparrison with F1 is irrelevant.

I have experienced someone 'leaning' on me from behind ie, practically pushing me up the track from behind and then punting me off. Karting isn't supposed to be a contact sport but in practice is does tend to be. The only answer is to drive faster!

[mahelgel]

I'm quite fresh to karting myself (don't do any competition driving, just training and fun), so I use the easy solution... whenever I notice a kart behind me, that has gotten there by driving faster than me, i go to the outside line, and raise my hand letting the faster guy go by

That is because I know the frustration than one gets when you are behind a driver not letting you pass (I do sometimes go faster than the one in front...). It is very, very, very frustrating knowing you can go faster if had a free run. I am quite heavy, so overtaking can be difficult as lighter drivers have an advantage out of the turns and onto the straights, so theres nothing more frustrating than being stuck behind a "slow" driver you can't manage to pass...

[Car no.27]

Speaking of overtaking there is one thing that I've been wanting to know.

In 1995 did'nt the FIA take out a ruling that if a car's front tire is level with the the leading car's back tire, then the leading car has to let the following car through?

I think they removed it then.

[superbird]

last weekend i have a kart racing session with some folks, and there was an accident where my friend got hit from behind by the guy behind him. the guy said that my friend was too slow, and didn't give him a chance to overtake, so he thought the only way for him to get faster was by getting rid off my friend at the front.

Your friend doesn't have to let anyone by unless they are alongside him and he knows they are there. True, it might be better if he let the guy past, tried to stay with him then repass him at another point, but he has no obligation to do this.

You are allowed to move across once to stop someone overtaking you but you are not allowed to move back again as this is generally classified as weaving/blocking. Even if you only move across to get onto the correct line for a corner they often count it as a second move so think about it in advance.

Also if you are testing and someone who is much quicker than you comes up behind you then IMO you should keep to your line and let them drive round you, this lessens the risk of you driving into their path if they don't understand your signals.

I highly reccommend "Bob Bondurant on Race Kart Driving" to any novice karter, you should be able to find it on Amazon

[Jeff Henry]

Originally posted by Jeff Henry
LOL, just ask a MS fan Yoquai

Or just see SPA98 on how not to overtake, and on sociopathic behaviour.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Jeff Henry


Or just see SPA98 on how not to overtake, and on sociopathic behaviour.

Do the words backmarker and raceleader ring a bell? DC, "the most courteous driver ever", was hindering the raceleader which ultimatly culminated in a very heavy accident. It wouldn't be the last time that said backmarker would be hindering the raceleader, in Suzuka 99 Schumacher was slowed down so much by the same backmarker that Rubens made up several seconds and looked set to unlap himself.

[mtl'78]

Originally posted by Yoquai
hi all,

need some help here...

does anybody knows where to find the information about the rules and regulation of overtaking in a race?

last weekend i have a kart racing session with some folks, and there was an accident where my friend got hit from behind by the guy behind him. the guy said that my friend was too slow, and didn't give him a chance to overtake, so he thought the only way for him to get faster was by getting rid off my friend at the front.

Rule #1 in racing is don't punt anyone on purpose. It's just about the worst thing you can do in a race car. Simple as that.

[Jeff Henry]

DC, "the most courteous driver ever", was hindering the raceleader which ultimatly culminated in a very heavy accident.

Foxbat

Did you really post this?, do you really think it made any sense?
Answers--1,Yes, 2, No.

in Suzuka 99 Schumacher was slowed down so much by the same backmarker

Look, keep on indulging in fantasy whilst i correct every paragraph you type.
DC was acting under team orders to slow MS.

Could you provide the name of a recent or current driver who you consider courteous?

[Oho]

Originally posted by Foxbat

in Suzuka 99 Schumacher was slowed down so much by the same backmarker that Rubens made up several seconds and looked set to unlap himself.

Ave !!

Actually I think it was Herbert whom Michael lapped at the end of the previous lap. Coulthard essentilly held Schumacher from the second of the esses to the hairpin and let him through exactly when the rules mandated him to i.e. Coulthard played it by the book, he did not violate any rule, not in letter or in spirit. It wasn't particularly sporting but hey, Michaels not particularly sporting moves are ferquently defended with the "it was legal" argument.

Coulthard cost Michael something aking to three seconds, at the end of the previous lap the gap to Mika was about 6 seconds, it went from about 5 to 6 when Michael lapped Jhonny, at the end of the lap Coulthard held Michael up the gap was about 9 seconds. The arguments that Davids trick cost Michael the race are really not short of ludicrous, especially in light of the fact that Micheal pitted before Mika for the second time.

- Oho -

[guyhancock]

What scares me is that of all the replies in here I think only one of them is concerned with the behavious of the guy behind!

No-one should try and "knock" another car/cart /whatever off the track.

And before you all leap in with the "schumacher did this . . . " or "someoneelse did that . . . " - I DONT CARE, its just plain wrong and dangerous!

guy

[superbird]

What scares me is that of all the replies in here I think only one of them is concerned with the behavious of the guy behind!

No-one should try and "knock" another car/cart /whatever off the track.

And before you all leap in with the "schumacher did this . . . " or "someoneelse did that . . . " - I DONT CARE, its just plain wrong and dangerous!

V. true, it's racing regulations, not common law. you can't establish precedents (god knows I've tried that excuse )

[Mosquito]

Yoquai,

From what I read, I get the impression that this 'other guy' is not part of your group of friends racing. If it just happens to be that he was just practising at the same time that you were, then I can understand why he eventually pushed your friend off the track after leaning on his bumper for some time. I do not say that it is the right thing to do, but I can understand someone getting annoyed by being held up by some stranger who sees every faster kart approaching him as a 'you're not going to get past me buddy!' challenge.

Especially on narrow indoor kart tracks with low powered karts, if the guy in front of you is determined to swerve and block at all costs, it is NOT easy to 'just pass'. And yes, if someone is deliberately blocking me, or I have the feeling he isn't even aware that I am behind him, he does get a little love tap from behind. Not ramming, but just a little nudge can be enough to either awake the guy from his Senna impersonation high, or just to create enough space to get through on the inside.

[Yoquai]

you're right, mosquito
that "other guy" wasn't part of our friends racing (though he is now!) .
i can't say that the track is narrow, i think it's quite wide. lots of corners for you to make your moves, and there are even two specials corners where you can easily overtake someone if you're quicker than them on the straight line -before the corners (ala Sepang). i have proved it my self several times, that i didnt have to punt someone in front of me just to overtake them... that is why, i think in this case, i'm at my friend's side... (though i'm a bit suspicious now about the possibility of him having that "Senna impersonation high" that day...! )

you know guys, what i'm looking for is a formal guidance from somewhere about overtaking and stuff, just to avoid the tiring endless post race argument between friends...!

anyway... thanks a lot for all the comments!

cheers!
Yoq

[Sith]

This is all part learning race ediquet in go karts, by that i mean how it's all not "gentleman like" if you're at a track where there lot's of "hacks" just buzzing around, and show no coutesy to other drivers, then it's a high chance you kart will end up bent at some stage. Remember, you're out there racing, most people have different views on what that exactly means!

[Bex37]

Originally posted by MattC
If Bex37 can quote her local rules, and they are more informative, I would be delighted to hear them

Just to set the record straight, I'm actually a guy. I'm far too ugly to be a girl.

As far as local rules, I just searched for my rule book and realised that I've lent it to someone who hasn't given it back.

Anyway, the person who was constantly hitting the back of your friends kart is not driving properly. A good driver can pass without hitting other karts. I've only driven hire karts a couple of times and I imagine the etiquette is a lot different to race meetings. If you want to get fairer competition, get a racing license, a race kart and go to a race meeting and you will get it. Just remember what I said about allowing the fast guys past until your times are close enough to theirs to justify making things difficult for them.

[Jeff Henry]

The only thing wrong with what he did was that it didn't work."
-Jenson Button
About Michael Schumacher's infamous maneuver at Jerez '97.

Birds of a feather flock together, lucky for us Jenson is near useless, LOL.

[MarkWRX]

I have about 8 years experience in SCCA officiating, as a Flag and Communications worker (Marshall in the UK and EU).

There are several factors and rules that come into play from my perspective. I have seen them all violated to one degree or another and have seen punishment handed out by the Stewards of the Meet.

1. It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to perform the manuever safely. This means no BTCC like taps to the rear bumper to ease the overtaken car out of the way. It also means you can't go into the grass, shortcut a chicane or violate other rules in order to complete the pass.

2. The over taken car must leave racing room. In F1, this is enforced by prohibiting drivers from defensivly changing their line more than one time. It also means that you can't swerve to close the door on someone, etc. If you do, you will be penalized. In the SCCA, the a driver who is weaving or blocking is usually shown a closed black flag which means "you are doing something wrong. Stop it." The driver generally has an idea why they were shown the flag. If they continue, they are given a black flag, which in the SCCA doesn't mean "stop and go" since there are no timed penalty stops, it means "stop and chat" with the Steward in the pits. I have heard of Stewards telling drivers "You might as well turn off the engine, since we are going to be talking for a while, and I don't want to have to shout."

3. Intentional contact between cars is prohibited. You can't bumpdraft and you can't use the bumper of the car in front of you as a brake assist.

If your friend was blocking, shame on him, but it's up to the officials to penalize him and not another driver, on the track. If the other driver intentionally hit him, which seems to be the case, shame on the officials for not dealing with that problem right away.

Mark