40 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

We're chasing information about what stuff was available for Dodges that raced in the sixties...

There were NASCAR options, I believe, and more... where can we find these on the net?

And does anyone know exactly what NASCAR brakes were for a '63 Dodge?

[12.9:1]

I think in those years it was just - Stock Car Racing.

The hot MOPAR action then was a little different, check it out !

http://www.1962to196...om/welcome.html

.

[Ray Bell]

Good stuff, 12.9:1... that's a big help... especially knowing the T10 came in that year.

Though we're still in the dark about what 'NASCAR brakes' means...

[12.9:1]

Ray

It seems to me that the factory 'hot-rods' of MOPAR where created by installing components
from the (truly) big Chysler's, on "light weight" Dodge's and Plymouth's

.

[Ray Bell]

I was hoping that would be the case...

Like stubs, hubs and brakes from Imperials in the Darts, I guess you mean?

[desmo]

I'm not old enough to have any first hand knowledge, but wouldn't Imperial brakes of the period be four wheel discs?

[Ray Bell]

Four wheel discs? Not a chance...

In fact, front discs would be more than just unlikely. Even as an option, I'd say you'd be looking at 1965 for that...

Who pinched all my Motor Trends?

[12.9:1]

You havent seen Imperial brake drums ?
They where-
HUGEwith lots of big fins

[Viss1]

I looked around a bit, and was surprised to find how little information exists about Dodge/Plymouth NASCAR brakes of that era. I do know that most components were interchangable between body lines, so I would suspect that you are correct in assuming that the largest-available factory drums, probably with some sort of metallic linings, were used in oval racing.

AFAIK, the term "NASCAR brakes" is used to describe this type of application (later applications would obviously indicate discs rather than drums).

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 12.9:1
You havent seen Imperial brake drums ?
They where-
HUGEwith lots of big fins

Hmm... very promising...

Now, who in America can locate some and economically send them to Australia?

I would imagine that it would be a swap complete from ball joint to ball joint... ie, the upright/spindle/stub axle and all would be changed over?

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
We're chasing information about what stuff was available for Dodges that raced in the sixties...

I know your looking for parts but you might also like to take a look at:

http://www.asheville...ar_news_22.html

Also Dodge (Chrysler) Hemi's were used in all kinds of cars in Drag Racing in the sixties. Even today's Fuel (T/F & F/C) cars use an engine which was derived from the original hemi. In the past few years Dodge has brought the Hemi back to Pro Stock Drag Racing, fielding two teams next year.

You might look at some of the Drag Racing auto supply companies like Jegs, Summit, CarQuest and etc.

[desmo]

A little web searching on Google has me semi-convinced that Chrysler had offered 4 wheel discs at least as an option on both the Imperial and Newport models prior to '63. Whether these were legal for NASCAR or ever used for NASCAR is even less clear though.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Top Fuel F1
.....Dodge (Chrysler) Hemi's were used in all kinds of cars in Drag Racing in the sixties. Even today's Fuel (T/F & F/C) cars use an engine which was derived from the original hemi. In the past few years Dodge has brought the Hemi back to Pro Stock Drag Racing, fielding two teams next year.

You might look at some of the Drag Racing auto supply companies like Jegs, Summit, CarQuest and etc.

Engines are not an issue here... it was all about transmissions and brakes.

The only engine choice is the 318, for which plenty of information is about, parts aren't a problem etc. The lad wants to be able to stop it... it's a road racing venture... and he wasn't sure what gearboxes were available. Thanks to the site given by 12.9:1 we've got all the gearbox info we need...

But the actual details of the brakes aren't forthcoming at all. I would say that the Imperial units from ball joint to ball joint would be the go, but proof will be important when it comes to building the car.

There was a car ran 'NASCAR brakes' here in the era... I might be able to find the owner.

des... no discs... maybe they were available as an option on some cars, but I really doubt it.

[12.9:1]

Ray

Do you want to Guess why I'd still be familiar with such an arcane auto part ? .............................

Give up ? OK a good frend drove one of these old bombs until ten years ago
Every thing on it had ben rebuilt two or three times, He would do about enything to keep it goin.
He was forced to put Her down (we where silently pleased) wen he no longer could find brake drums

Though I dont know the details He said it would be very difficult to adapt other brakes to the old Girl, (Marge) . .
.

[desmo]

All these pages could be wrong I suppose:

www.automuseum.com/chtl.html

www.geocities.com/chryslercars/hci.html

www.ifrance.com/c-i-f/ghialimo_us.htm

www.ifrance.com/c-i-f/55imp_us.htm

www.histomobile.com/histomob/presmark.asp?ID=35&lan=2

www.allpar.com/history/chron4.html

teamchicago.com/imperial/prdphaet.htm

my.net-link.net/~dcline/limopres.htm

Please forgive any dead links, I hand typed these.


I think the critical question may be whether this

www.dte.net/57imperial/50Saga/Jun01_06.JPG

Lambert "disc" brake is actually a disc brake. I'll do some more research on what exactly this brake is if anyone is interested. They were called disc brakes at any rate.

[Top Fuel F1]

Re:

http://www.allpar.com/fix.html

Ray:

Take a look at this (Re:)

[12.9:1]

Very Cool - 1950 ! . Non-Rotating Internal Expanding Friction DISCS

Lambert Disc Brake
.

[Ray Bell]

Some weird stuff, but I don't find anything about discs being available in 1963...

Not that this is an issue, as we know that the 'NASCAR brakes' offered on 63 Darts were drums.

12.9:1... in the strange world in which I live, living knowledge of things so 'arcane' is normal... hence I wasn't wondering at all.

[Ray Bell]

I found a site the other week that had links and lists that were very helpful... now I can't find it!

But it seems that my nephew might now go for the 1964 model for his project, and this opens up another can of worms...

Were there discs as an option on the '64 Polaras etc?

We know that Chrysler came out with their own 4-speed box that year to replace the T10 that was apparently marginal in the '63s...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Top Fuel F1
Re:

http://www.allpar.com/fix.html

Ray:

Take a look at this (Re:)

Wonder what happened here...

I'm still in the dark about these brakes. Anyone who can help is most welcome so to do.

[hawkeracer]

In 1962, I owned a '62 Plymouth Savoy, with the Golden Commando 413 race engine.

The car was a factory drag race car (The Jolly Roger, raced in the Northeast, USA), and it could usually beat anything legal from either GM or Ford.

The exciting part of this car was not neccessarily the 12.60 ET or the 108-111 MPH, through the quarter mile... but the absolutely frightening braking power available to stop the thing.

The brakes on the drag race cars were almost non-exsitent.

[Ray Bell]

That I expected... in fact, in a Motor Trend I picked up with a feature on a Barracuda I searched hard and found not comment about the brakes at all...

Somebody, however, must know about these things. Now the plan seems to have been revised to use a 1964 model, it seems to me that there might have been discs introduced as an option during that model year?

Or are we still trying to find out exactly what NASCAR brakes were?

[DOHC]

Dodge, Dodge, Dodge...

I once owned a 1976 Dodge Aspen. Not much help, I suppose.

[Ray Bell]

You guessed it...

Not much to do with a 1964 model at all...

[Ray Bell]

Anyone got any clues about this issue now?

Especially details about discs on the 1964 Polaras... or were they Darts?

[gmw]

Ray,

I may be able to help you on the “NASCAR Brakes”, since I was there at the time. I was at Chrysler Engineering from 1953 to 1971 and was involved part time in the race programs form 1964 to 1968 and full time from 1969 to1971. I did not do much work directly on brakes, but I was aware of what was going on.

There was no Engineering involvement previous to 1964. Before that time the race programs were managed by the separate divisions (Dodge and Plymouth).The divisions contracted with the race teams and the teams did their own development on components such as brakes. The divisions would release parts as requested by the race teams, since at that time NASCAR still required the cars to be fairly close to stock. What would have been released as “NASCAR Brakes would have been the larger brakes from the “C” body cars, Dodge Polera etc, modified as necessary to fit the “B” body suspension. The brakes would then be modified by the race teams. They would install some brand of metallic lining and would modify the backing plates to allow more air flow into the brakes.

The internal expanding disk brakes mentioned above were out of production by 1963. They had been tried on some Chrysler New Yorkers in the Mexican Road Race, and, as I recall, were no improvement over the stock drum brakes.

Starting in 1964 there was much more involvement of Engineering in the NASCAR program. Initially Engineering was only asked to develop the new Hemi head engine and to make the new A833 Chrysler four speed transmission suitable for road racing. Later, when the racers found that more engine power was not enough to win races Engineering involvement was also requested for a variety of chassis areas. Suspension and chassis rigidity were the major areas, but brake development for road racing was also included. The January Motor Trend 500 at Riverside was considered the second most important race of the season from a publicity point of view. The Daytona 500 was and still is head and shoulders above any other NASCAR race from a corporate PR point of view.

The starting point were the 11 x 3-1/2 front brakes and 11 x 3 rear brakes that were already in use. 12” brakes were tried, but they never worked out, all serious development was on 11” Bendix Duo-Servo brakes. Various types of aluminum drums were tried, but they could not handle the heat load. The bonding between the iron liner and the aluminum drum would fail in as few as eight laps at Riverside. After that the iron drums had more fins added, both for cooling and reinforcement. Different metallic and cera-metallic brake linings were tried, and a sintered iron lining was the best. These linings were welded to the brake shoes. Then the brake shoes began to distort, requiring gussets be welded between center flange and the face of the shoe. Eventually new, reinforced stainless steel shoes were made, that lived very well.

At the same time the stainless steel shoes were introduced, the Bendix style backing plates, which also supported the shoes, was eliminated. A new system, called the delta brake because of its triangular shape, was introduced. The three points of the triangle were the cylinder and anchor at the top and two shoe supports lower down. These supports we based on the older Chrysler Center Plane brakes of the 1950’s.This final package was probably the ultimate drum brake for a 4000 lb car, which had to decelerate from 170 mph to about 50 mph once per lap at Riverside.

Disk brakes were tried, but the thick ventilated disks were not developed until about 1974 when Frank Airheart made the first successful disk brakes for a Winston cup car. After that drum brakes got a well deserved retirement.

I hope that this helps.

gmw

[BRIAN GLOVER]

Far out, GMV, I was 7 years old in '53. Tell us more about the greatest period in NASCAR.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gmw
[B]Ray,

I may be able to help you on the “NASCAR Brakes”, since I was there at the time. I was at Chrysler Engineering from 1953 to 1971 and was involved part time in the race programs form 1964 to 1968 and full time from 1969 to1971. I did not do much work directly on brakes, but I was aware of what was going on.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks for that information, gmw... I'm not sure that it nails things down well enough but it's a start.

[Ray Bell]

This project is about to come to life...

The 1964 Dodge Phoenix (Australian name for the 440) has been purchased and will be picked up in a few weeks.

But we're still not totally satisfied with information on disc brakes, which the lad would prefer to run when he starts racing. We did find some reference to them being an option, but I don't remember where.

Any clues? Remember it's only valid if it's a factory-based source of information...

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
But we're still not totally satisfied with information on disc brakes, which the lad would prefer to run when he starts racing. We did find some reference to them being an option, but I don't remember where.

Any clues? Remember it's only valid if it's a factory-based source of information...

Dodge intermediates did not get disc brakes until 1967, and they were pure shite: Bendix four-piston calipers (leakmasters) with two-piece unvented rotors ( ! ) only .875" thick as I recall. They would warp if you looked at them sideways. Front only; rears were drums of course. These brakes are absolutely NFG for any racing application, or any application I can imagine for that matter, except perhaps an authentic restoration of a trailer queen. Parts for this setup are now extremely rare AND expensive, and as a bonus they are essentially junk right out of the box.

In point of fact nobody's disc brakes were very good on Detroit iron at the time (except for Corvette/Camaro Z28 and a few others) which is why the NASCAR guys held on to their giant custom-made drum brakes until 1973...when Mark Donahue showed up at Riverside with his AMC Matador equipped with 4-wheel discs and blew eveyone away (Girling calipers from Penske's Lola long-distance racer, with Lincoln rotors -- there's a chapter about the Matador in Donahue's fantastic book, The Unfair Advantage). So anyway, no disc brakes of any kind would be truly authentic on a NASCAR-type racer until that date.

That said, if ultimate authenticity is not an issue, the '73-on (?) Dodge-Plymouth floating single-piston calipers and one-piece cast-iron vented rotors will fall right on, almost. Basically you hang those uprights on your control arms. It would look "stock," sort of, if rather anachronistic.

But If ultimate authenticity is the goal, everything the esteemed Mr. gmw says in his post about Dodge drum brakes sounds absolutely 100% spot on to me. There's nothing like first-hand information from one who was there on the inside.

Another possible solution: I have been led to believe from looking at various cars, and also according to The Anatomy and Development of the Stock Car, by John Craft (decent book if not very detailed) that from the mid-to-late 60s or thereabouts until they were obsoleted by disc brakes, many NASCAR privateers regardless of make ran Holman Moody brakes, which were loosely based on Lincoln/Ford truck components and used 11"x3.5" shoes and drums. These deals were something to behold, with great thick blocks of metallic lining arc-welded to massively girdered shoes, no backing plates. This system was apparently very popular as it could be purchased right off HM's shelf ready to work, but I have no idea if any of this stuff is still around at a reasonable price. A place to start might be with one of the several restorers in the southeastern USA which specialize in restoring NASCAR racers -- Gene Felton or Ernie and Dan Elliott.

[Ray Bell]

As I understand the rules, the only things that have to remain standard are the type of brakes (ie. internal expanding drum, external contracting drum or disc...) and the swept area.

This means we can use later model discs of the same dimension if we can prove there was a disc brake available for the model. I've seen mention on a website that they had discs available, and I can well understand why they might not have been used in racing, particularly NASCAR, but I can't find that website again!

gmw was good enough to send me a copy of a paper detailing all the testing done in the era by Chrysler, which is going to be handy if we go the drum brake route. But given that discs can be had that are capable of standing the test, if they're legal we'd like to run them.

Now, next issue... is anyone in America capable of locating and shipping a fairly close ratio Dodge 'New Process box to us? We'd also need a flywheel for the 318 and a clutch assembly, but we could probably adapt a local clutch if we had to.

If anyone would like to privately add any information they think might help, please e.mail bensimpson@racingphoenix.com and Ben would be very grateful to you.

Thanks for your comments, McGuire

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
This project is about to come to life...The 1964 Dodge Phoenix (Australian name for the 440) has been purchased and will be picked up in a few weeks.

But we're still not totally satisfied with information on disc brakes, which the lad would prefer to run when he starts racing. We did find some reference to them being an option, but I don't remember where.

Any clues? Remember it's only valid if it's a factory-based source of information...

Hold on a sec! Did I hear road-racing and Dodge Phoenix in the same thread!!

I don't think there is a track wide enough in Australia where you could hang the massive finned tail out on that land yacht ! :

[12.9:1]

Ray,

Looks like there may be a set of those big drums not far from you! Have a look at old #5

[12.9:1]

Ray,

I'm getting the feeling that with enough $$ you'll be in business

Gene Felton Restorations

And Jack Sears driving the 1963 Galaxie at Silverstone

I really liked the Search for Wendell Scott site, and the Pictures of the Cyclone

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Hold on a sec! Did I hear road-racing and Dodge Phoenix in the same thread!!

I don't think there is a track wide enough in Australia where you could hang the massive finned tail out on that land yacht !

As 12.9:1 points out, it's been done before. And you know that well...

It's actually smaller than the Hopwood Chev and the Galaxies mentioned by 12.9:1.

Shame there are some inconsistencies in that site, 12.9... no mention of Baillie at Longford, and the car certainly wasn't 'campaigned across Australia' as he says. Also, Beechey was the regular driver of the Lukey car for a while, it was even painted in Beechey's team colours, and from memory it won the Qld Touring Car Championship at Lowood.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As 12.9:1 points out, it's been done before. And you know that well...

It's actually smaller than the Hopwood Chev and the Galaxies mentioned by 12.9:1.

Hmmmm Ray, no ...why would I know that well?......my interest in Motorsport started at the Sydney Showground Speedway as a young lad and blossomed when living at East Hills and Liverpool at Liverpool and Parra Speedways and then more so when Oran Park opened, later found Bathurst, Amaroo, Catalina Park, Castlereagh Drags, Silverdale Hillclimb etc

I was not trying to be unkind, just overstating the blindingly obvious!!!

I was at Eastern Creek last weekend and thoroughly enjoyed the atmosphere, sights and sounds. One thing that came to my notice however was the number of "clones" creeping into Historics. The thing that has always attracted me to Historics is that:

a. most of the cars were raced new when I was younger (the halcyon days influence...), and
b. the body and suspension angles
c. passing and passing again!!
d. variety!!

But what am I starting to see? One make classes!!! The Nc race could have been the Torana Cup in places!!

It will be great to see the Phoenix rise Ray - keep us informed of progress!!

[Ray Bell]

You never saw the Hopwood Impala or one of the Galaxies?

I'm surprised... by that I mean that you'd think the car too big to race.

Latest is that he might race it initially with the automatic transmission!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You never saw the Hopwood Impala or one of the Galaxies?

I'm surprised... by that I mean that you'd think the car too big to race.

Latest is that he might race it initially with the automatic transmission!

1. possibly, I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have at times!! I also tended to watch and barrack for my favourites like anyone in Minis or Escorts, Big Pete, Foley, Leffler, Ross Bond, Alan Barrow etc

2. I'm surprised that you don't think the car is big!! (not too big to race though - it was all tongue in cheek)

3. a slush box don't seem to slow the Tilley Valiant too much!!

BTW is it going to be painted that factory Salmon Pink!!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
1. possibly, I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have at times!! I also tended to watch and barrack for my favourites like anyone in Minis or Escorts, Big Pete, Foley, Leffler, Ross Bond, Alan Barrow etc

2. I'm surprised that you don't think the car is big!! (not too big to race though - it was all tongue in cheek)

3. a slush box don't seem to slow the Tilley Valiant too much!!

BTW is it going to be painted that factory Salmon Pink!!

1. All of those except for Barrow were gone before Peter started racing, and then the Impala was late in his career. Well... fairly late... well maybe not so late, he was still to do his aviating at Amaroo I guess. But it was in the 'Appendix J' days... Group N.

2. It's big, but not as big as the Galaxie and Impala.

3. You can get some mighty tricky torque converters and shifting mechanisms, apparently.

BTW. No, salmon pink is not on the cards. I'll have pics of the car 'in the rough' in a week or so. It may well remain the original ivory with grey flash.

[Ray Bell]

I've downloaded the pdf file covering the brakes in the 1964 Dodge Service Manual... which gives the specs for the 'Police Special' brakes (wasn't this option also referred to as 'Police and Taxi'?) as 11" x 3" drums.

Earlier, I believe, someone mentioned 3.5" wide shoes in 11" drums... we cannot go bigger in swept area than the specs in the book, which means 3". Are these the same as the light truck Dodge of the era, perchance?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As 12.9:1 points out, it's been done before. And you know that well...

It's actually smaller than the Hopwood Chev and the Galaxies mentioned by 12.9:1.

Shame there are some inconsistencies in that site, 12.9... no mention of Baillie at Longford, and the car certainly wasn't 'campaigned across Australia' as he says. Also, Beechey was the regular driver of the Lukey car for a while, it was even painted in Beechey's team colours, and from memory it won the Qld Touring Car Championship at Lowood.

Calling Ray Bell, will I see the Phoenix at Eastern Creek in a couple of weeks??

You have been very quiet so you must have been burning the midnight oil on the Dodge!!

Cheers, Mick ;)