22 replies to this topic

[Viktor]

Im currently reading "Enzo Ferrari" by Richard Williams, a very good book!

Im now iterested to know how good Enzo was as a driver. I have no referenses to the time and in the book thay talk about his results and it sounds pretty good, severel winns and other good places, but how hard was the competition in those races? Was Enzo one of the best driver in Italy at the time or was he just another driver? My feeling now after reading the book is that he was good but not more then that.

/Viktor

[quintin cloud]

I would not go and say he was as good as Tazio Nuvolari and Achille Varzi if anything he was a cut above the average racer, but he was better as the team manager and team owner.

[Alexey Rogachev]

I remember Enzo took 2nd place in Mille Miglia in 1920 (?). But I have no idea about the value of this achievement.

[robert dick]

At first sight Ferrari was an average racing driver. He was not bad. He knew how to handle a racing car. But Ascari and Campari for example were faster.

But Ferrari was always able to find a racing car, despite his average skills, if his skills were average. Who financed his Isotta drive?

He even appeared in Lyon on an Alfa P 2. He did not start, went home, feeling ill. A rather unsatisfactory reason. And a rather interesting enigma.

[dmj]

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
I remember Enzo took 2nd place in Mille Miglia in 1920 (?). But I have no idea about the value of this achievement.

No Mille Miglia before 1927, and Enzo's racing days were mostly over by then... Sorry, Alexey, I believe you're wrong.

[Gary Davies]

The following notes on Ferrari the driver appeared in Brock Yates' book:

"The historian Griffith Borgeson accurately notes that Enzo Ferrari tended to inflate the results of his racing career and says that the official record of the ACI (Automobile Club of Italy) lists 21 events in which he is supposed to have competed, winning nine times.

This fine historian wrote, “Most of the events he took part in were bush-league affairs or hill climbs." But there is more to the story. Valerio Moretti's excellent study of Ferrari's early racing career (Enzo Ferrari, Pilota) credits Ferrari with 38 race entries from 1919 to 1931, including the French Grand Prix at Lyon, which he never started. Moretti gives him ten victories and three second-place finishes, all in relatively minor races and hill climbs within the borders of his homeland. However, Italian journalist Giulio Schmidt, in his 1988 book on the subject (Le Corse Ruggenti. La Storia di Enzo Ferrari Pilota), credits Ferrari with running in, or at least entering, 41 events. Schmidt's study is the most extensive and his data must be respected. But among the 41 events listed Schmidt notes three races - Monza, 1922; Mugello, 1923; Lyon, 1924 - in which he was entered but did not compete. Ferrari's record also includes six hill climbs and five trials, straightaway runs, rallies, etc., none of which can be defined as classic, wheel-to-wheel motor races. Neither Schmidt nor Moretti lists Ferrari's entry in the 1930 Monte Carlo Grand Prix, although during my own interview with René Dreyfus he firmly recalled that Ferrari was listed as a contestant but again did not appear. A number of historians have claimed that Ferrari finished ninth with Giulio Foresti in the 1930 Mille Miglia. Neither Schmidt nor Moretti credits him with such an accomplishment. The confusing element is the presence of at least four other Ferraris, all unrelated, who raced as amateurs during the 1920s and 1930s. They included Giuseppe, Girolamo, Bartolo and Valerio Ferrari, none of whom made an appreciable mark on the sport. It was no doubt one of this foursome who finished ninth in the 1930 Mille Miglia. Whatever the actual number of automobile races to be credited to Ferrari, the central point remains: Enzo Ferrari drove for the most part in minor Italian races. His major accomplishments were his finish in the 1920 Targa Florio and his victory in the 1924 Coppa Acerbo. Aside from those, his efforts were restricted to regional hill climbs, and local road races. Ferrari's only attempt to drive in a major Grand Prix, at Lyon, ended in a withdrawal that was to be the subject of controversy years to come. At best, his record marks him as a semiprofessional sports-car specialist with no more than second-rank credentials."

Vanwall

[Barry Lake]

I felt that this book was consistently desperately grasping for anything that could be deemed negative about Ferrari...

Not that there's nothing negative to be said about old Enzo, of course, but perhaps all the more reason not to have to try so hard to fit them to the theme of the book.

[Alexey Rogachev]

Originally posted by dmj
No Mille Miglia before 1927, and Enzo's racing days were mostly over by then... Sorry, Alexey, I believe you're wrong.

I'm really wrong - I've meant Targa Florio!

[just me again]

I have tried a google search and also searched the TNF but there is nearly nothing on the Targa Florio!.
Is it possible that someone could find an entering list and results for the 1920 Targa Florio so we can get fact´s on maybe Enzo´s finest hour as a racingdriver
Bjørn

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by just me again
I have tried a google search and also searched the TNF but there is nearly nothing on the Targa Florio!.
Is it possible that someone could find an entering list and results for the 1920 Targa Florio so we can get fact´s on maybe Enzo´s finest hour as a racingdriver
Bjørn

Well, at least there is:
http://user.tninet.s...91w/Targa20.htm

Date: October 20, rain
Track Length: 108 km
Fastest Lap: Enzo Ferrari 2:05'39.6"
Attendance: Distance: 4 laps x 108 km = 432 km
Average Speed: 50.924 km/h or 51.34 km/h (6)
Starters: 16

Pos Classific. # Driver, Nationality Entrant Car Enginetype - volume Time Laps Reason Out
1 1 4 Guido Meregalli, I Guido Meregalli Nazzaro GP 8:27'23.8"
2 2 14 Enzo Ferrari, I Alfa Corse Alfa Romeo 40/60 8:35'47.6"
3 3 13 Luigi Lopez, I Luigi Lopez Darracq 9:19'25.4"
4 4 3 Giuseppe Piro, I Fiat SpA Fiat 501 S4 - 1.5 9:22'13.6"
5 5 7 Maravigna, I Fiat 501 S4 - 1.5 9:55'27.0"
6 6 10 Guido Airoldi, I Guido Airoldi Itala 65 9:58'20.4"
7 7 19 Tagliavia, I Itala 35 11:50'10.0" Not classified ? (2)
8 DNF 5 Guido Peyron, I Guido Peyron Diatto 4DC 3
9 DNF 1 Carlo Restelli, I Officine Isola Bella Restelli 3
10 DNF 2 Guiseppe Campari, I Alfa Corse Alfa Romeo 1914 GP 3
11 DNF 12 Maria-Antonietta d'Avanzo, I G. d'Avanzo Buick 2
12 DNF 8 Augusto Tarabusi, I Augusto Tarabusi SCAT 2
13 DNF 17 Giuseppa Baldoni, I Alfa Corse Alfa Romeo 20/30 1
14 DNF 16 Veronesi, I Isotta-Fraschini 1
15 DNF 6 Pietro di Paolo, I Pietro di Paolo Diatto 4DC 1
16 DNF 18 Paolo Tasca, I Paolo Tasca Itala 35 1
17 DNA 9 - SCAT
18 DNA 11 Alberto Lancilloto, I Alberto Lancilloto SCAT
19 DNA 15 - Nazzaro GP

Sources:
(1) Targa Florio, page 152 - W. F. Bradley, 1955
(2) Settant'anni di gare automobilistiche in Italia, page 104 - Emanuele Alberto Carli, 1967
(3) A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Volume 1, page 125 - Paul Sheldon, 1987
(4) Data collected by Alessandro Silva
(5) Data collected by Hans Etzrodt
(6) La Targa Florio - http://www.targaflorio.it/index1.htm
(7) La Targa Florio - http://aldolg.freewe....it/index.htm?p
(8) Automobile Quarterly Volume II No. 4 - Cullen Thomas / David Owen 1973

[just me again]

Thank you very much, how could i miss it!!!!!!.

Bjørn

[scheivlak]

See also:
http://www.fantastic...ferr/0301co.htm

[dretceterini]

One of the books that is REALLY needed is one on the Targa and Giro, with complete entry lists and photos of other than the top few cars....something like Orsini's book on the Mille Miglia..

[just me again]

I have been looking a little bit on the drivers in the 1920 Taga Florio. checking on Hans and Leifs site http://www.kolumbus....ellman/gpw2.htm i found 3 drivers there had won Grand Prix'es between 1919 and 1933. namely Guido Meregalli, Giuseppe Campari and Enzo Ferrari.
I think i found an interesting pattern between the drivers, all 3 have won the majority of there grand prix wins in back to back victorys on the same circuit,

Guido Meregalli in 1922,1923,1924 on the Garda Circuit Salo in a Diatto 20S
http://www.silhouet....racks/garda.jpg

Giuseppe Campari in 1920,1921 on the Mugello Circuit in a Alfa Romeo 40/60
http://www.silhouet....ks/mugelloc.jpg

Enzo Ferrari in 1923,1924 on the Savio Circuit Ravenna in a Alfa Romeo RL and Alfa Romeo RL SS.
( no map on Darren´s site. Does someone have some circuit information!! )

Is it just coinsidense!! or was it easyer to win second time in that period!, the Mugello and Garda Circuits look daunting,surely experience must have counted for a lot.

And

What was the level of competition in the Savio races?

What is a Diatto 20S?.

Bjørn

[robert dick]

Diatto 20 S:

some infos at: http://www.bpmat.it/...df_64/74_64.pdf

[just me again]

Thank you for the link Robert
unfortunately i have never learnt Italian ( though i tried once ) so i had to do with a google translation,
The little i could get from that was this.
1. The engine in Diatto 20 was inspired from a licence Diatto had to build Bugatti 8c engines
2. Maserati started out with modifying Diatto's
maybe someone who can Italian will take time to translate ( shortly ) the interesting parts of the Link!.

After checking more deeply i found out that it look like coincidense with Guido Meregallis, Giuseppe Camparis and Enzo Ferraris back to back wins.
But i found another interisting driver i will start a thread on, namely Emilio Materassi.

Bjørn

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by just me again
What was the level of competition in the Savio races?

Virtually nil. Materassi had his Itala special in the 1924 race but retired. Otherwise none of the big Italian names of the period took part, and Ferrari's 3-litre RLTF Alfa had only 1500s to beat.

[just me again]

Okay. it certenaly is easyer to win with an engine twice as big as the competision.

I found one more Diatto Link
http://www.carsfromi...hers/index.html

Bjørn

[dmj]

Yeah, it seems that license-built Bugattis, like Diattos and Rabags, had its share of race wins, too. And it isn't entirely surprising.

[robert dick]

Diatto 20 S:
In principle the Diatto 20 S was a small scale 1914 GP Fiat. It was designed by Giuseppe Coda who was responsible for the Fiat and worked for Diatto at the beginning of the twenties. The Diatto had an SOHC-2-valve-four-cylinder (79,7/100 mm); wheelbase 265 cm. The Diatto 20 S had nothing to do with the four-cylinder Bugatti built in licence by Diatto.

[dmj]

Sorry, I obviously had wrong impression that Diatto sticked only with licence built Bugattis for longer than they actually did... 1914 FIAT? Good choice to copy!

[just me again]

I can not Italian, and the Google and babelfish translations of this text were not very good, but i think it in the first two lines indicate the Diatto tipo 20 engine was inspired from the Bugatti Avio 8c and FIAT is not mentioned anywhere in the text.
Maybe someone who can Italian can clarify shortly what the text says.

Bjørn

1922-23 - L’ing. Coda progetta e costruisce un motore 8 C in linea con due
blocchi Diatto tipo 20 (79,7x100) ispirandosi al motore Bugatti Avio 8C che
la Diatto aveva prodotto su licenza sotto la sua direzione tecnica. Coda en-tra
in contatto con Alfieri Maserati per una collaborazione con la DIATTO
ed insieme realizzano varie migliorie a quel motore: nuove teste senza inter-posizione
di guarnizione con i blocchi, nuovi carburatori - Zenith da Ø 36 -in
sostituzione dei Feroldi avio modificati da Coda ed altro, si costruisce un
secondo motore a teste fisse e vengono assemblati due prototipi utilizzando
due telai tipo 20 di serie (passo 3.10; carreggiata ant; e post. 1,40). È da no-tare
che l’ing. Coda pensa di costruire anche una vettura di lusso ed uno spi-der
con un motore del genere oltre che una da competizione. Le prove sul
Moncenisio, con una carrozzeria spartana, effettuate da Coda, Maserati e
De Sterlich sono del tutto insoddisfacenti. De Sterlich fa sostituire le gomme
820x120 con altre 820x135 e modificare le balestre posteriori zavorrando il
retrotreno con quattro ruote - non per scorta! - e, cambiate le otto candele,
riprova sullo stesso percorso ma il prototipo prende fuoco - viene spento con
il concorso di alcuni montanari presenti lungo la strada.
1923-24 - Coda e Maserati sviluppano i due motori costruiti ed assemblano
due nuovi prototipi con telai Diatto tipo 20 sport (passo 2650, carreggiata
ant. e post. 1350), ruote Rudge Whitworth Stright side e gomme 820x120. Il
motore a testa fissa viene dotato di due carburatori Zenith da Ø 36 e com-pressore
a palette ideato da Coda collocato al posto del magnete, quindi con
la girante a 90° rispetto all’albero motore, il magnete trasferito in coda al
secondo albero di distribuzione. Le prove su strada, pur soddisfacenti anche
con il motore a teste fisse, evidenziano ancora problemi. Si abbandona defi-nitivamente
l’idea del motore biblocco, quello a teste fisse viene acquistato
da Conelli, l’altro riutilizzato per alcune componenti. Coda e Maserati rea-lizzano
allora un 8C monoblocco in linea (7,9 x100) monoalbero con testa
smontabile senza guarnizione interposta con il blocco. L’alimentazione è a-spirata
con due e poi quattro carburatori Zenith da Ø 36; La lubrificazione è
a carter secco con radiatore dell’olio posto davanti a quello dell’acqua,
pompa “a paletta mobile” (sic! Coda) e serbatoio di recupero collocato sot-to
il cruscotto anteriormente al posto del meccanico. Le prove sono final-mente
molto soddisfacenti.
1924-25 - Coda incarica Maserati per conto della Diatto di sviluppare il
motore 8C monoblocco monoalbero realizzato ma contenendo la cilindrata
a 2000 cc. Maserati progetta allora e costruisce un nuovo motore di 1995 cc
(65,5x74) con la guida dell’ing. G. Coda che chiama il “mio maestro”. È un
8C monoblocco in linea bialbero in alluminio con due carburatori Memini e
compressore tipo Roots costruito dai Maserati. Le altre caratteristiche sono
pressoché simili al precedente quattro litri. Questo motore montato su di un
telaio tipo 20 sport viene provato - senza carrozzeria ma soltanto con un ba-quet
- sulla pista di Monza da Coda, Maserati e De Sterlich. Quest’ultimo
prenota subito alla Diatto un esemplare ed ordina a Schieppati una carroz-zeria.
Ma la Diatto entra in una grave crisi economico-amministrativa.
Maserati utilizza intanto con successo in alcune gare il prototipo da lui co-struito
e carrozzato da Schieppati e lo presenta a Monza il 14 giugno 1925 in
occasione della manifestazione dei sostenitori della Diatto partecipanti alla
fondazione del “Club dei cento all’ora” ed alla “Coppa del Re” in pro-gramma
per quel giorno. Alfieri non partecipa alla gara ma spinto da Coda
ed altri suoi estimatori effettua alcuni giri dimostrativi e raggiunge ben 180
km/h tra il generale plauso.
1925-26 - Alla fine di giugno 1925 Alfieri Maserati consegna alla Diatto il
secondo motore 8C costruito ma, con la mediazione di Coda, trattiene il pro-totipo
a saldo per l’opera svolta negli ultimi tempi senza retribuzione, al pari
dello stesso Coda; Finita questa collaborazione Alfieri ne cerca un’altra ma
non riesce a trovarla. Conelli si offre di contattare Bugatti e per questo fa
montare da Alfieri il motore a teste fisse biblocco da lui acquistato nel 1923
dalla Diatto su di un telaio tipo 20 sport modificato con l’assale tipo B.C.C.
prelevato dalla sua Diatto-Bugatti del 1921. De Sterlich offre la carrozzeria
che aveva commissionato a Schieppati per la Diatto 8C da lui prenotata che
non verrà più prodotta e la vettura così assemblata,v erniciata in azzurro
chiaro viene mostrata da Conelli a Bugatti, in occasione di una sua visita a
Milano, insieme alla rossa Diatto 8C di Alfieri. Ma l’accordo di collabora-zione
Bugatti-Maserati non si fa. De Sterlich rileva allora dalla Diatto una
decina di telai tipo 30 - ch saranno modificati in sport - e li fa consegnare ad
Alfieri convincendolo, insieme ad altri estimatori, anche con varie elargi-zioni,
a mettersi in proprio nella costruzione di auto da corsa. Il battesimo
avviene nella primavera del 1926 suggellato da una bella fotografia di
gruppo intorno alla vettura voluta da Conelli e sulla quale per la prima volta
appare il “tridente” disegnato da Mario Maserati, l’unico dei fratelli non
interessato alle automobili ma alla figurazione artistica.

Text from

http://www.bpmat.it/...df_64/74_64.pdf

[robert dick]

That a Coda-designed 8-cylinder (two coupled Diatto 20 blocks) was influenced by the Bugatti aero engine can be accepted. It means that the coupling was influenced by the Bugatti construction, not in detail but in principle.

But the 2-litre Diatto (79,7/100 mm) itself was definitively not influenced by Bugatti. It followed pure Coda style. Comparing the drawings of the Fiat S 57 (100/143 mm, 4.5 litre, in accordance with the European 4.5 litre formula of 1914) and the S 57 A (104/143 mm, 4.9 litre, in accordance with the American 300 cubic inch formula) with the drawings of the Diatto 20, it is evident that these engines had their origin on the same drawing board.

Coda was a first class engineer, one of the best of his time, on the same level as Ernest Henry from Peugeot, Arthur Michelat from Delage or Eugen Link from Mercedes. He was not in need of copying the engine mystic Bugatti, quite the contrary.