29 replies to this topic

[mike_w]

A quick question.......

When the German GP was held at the old Nurburgring, did they complete a warm up lap? I mean.....14 odd miles is some warm-up, right?!

[LittleChris]

IIRC they just used the club circuit ie Down to the South curve, up the straight behind the pits, turn left at the North curve then immediately right to rejoin the start finish straight at Hohenrain.

This was used frequently during practice whilst the drivers built up their nerves to embark on a full lap of the Nordschleife

[Vitesse2]

No, they didn't do the full lap - there was a short loop circuit used for testing and warmups, which cut off before Hatzenbach and returned to the pits:

[mike_w]

Thanks for that guys! Actually, looking at the map, I guess that the warm-up loop may have some passing resemblance with what they actually raced the German GP on this year.

Times change, I guess!

[robert dick]

To warm up, the formula 1 field used the club circuit described above. In German it was called “Betonschleife” = concrete loop.
In 1965 there was a “warm up lap for the spectators”: Stirling Moss and Hermann Lang (both on board) completed one 22 km lap with a Lola sports racer.

[Frank de Jong]

The start-ziel schleife itself was used for racing too. Some DRM races were held on this circuit. IIRC touring cars lapped in about 50-55 seconds.

[fines]

Don't forget that warm-up laps as such weren't done at all before the early seventies in Grand Prix Racing. I don't think the Betonschleife saw more than three or four examples of this practice.

[Liam]

They would have used it a lot in the practise sessions as they had no tyre warmers, and it was a usefull enough bit of track to check out any changes you made before setting off on a proper lap. The last thing you wanted on such a long lap was to find your setup was wrong, or something was broken on the car.

[TODave2]

What's that bit going down to Bocksberg then in the bottom left of the map? It looks like some sort of extension to the circuit...?

[robert dick]

...the bit going down to Boxberg:
the “Südschleife” = south loop. Used for a formula 2 German GP, parts of it for a hillclimb, and the Nord- and Südschleife together for a lot of 18 lap regularity runs... (not mentioning the prewar events).

[Barry Boor]

If

the bit going down to Boxberg

were used for the German Grand Prix nowadays, it would instantly become the BEST circuit in the world!

[2F-001]

I'm always frustrated by the extent to which circuit maps vary - and those of the 'Ring are no exception.
The one posted above by Vitesse2 (whilst clearly not pretending to be more than a sketch map) quotes the gradient of the Steilstrecke at 27%. One I have here quotes it as 33%. Is that 6% a big difference? What do those figures represent in ratios? I could then try to work out a figure from the Land Survey map.

[Lotus23]

In the Scuderia Hanseat 4-day school at the 'ring in Sep 61, we raced one or two laps around the Betonschleife, using a LeMans start (i.e., sprinting across the track, then jumping into the car). I was 23 then, and wish I could run half as fast today!

We spent a morning on the Sudschleife -- 41 years later, I recall it as being similar in character to the North Course.

And I can't recall the exact slope of the Steilstrecke; we never drove up it, but it was the steepest piece of paved road I had ever seen!

[2F-001]

I'm sure you know that the Scuderia Hanseat is still going... I spoke recently with someone, who has done the course many times, who said that on occasion they drive down the hill for access (part of the training involves doing the circuit section-by-section). Going down must be fairly unnerving. Steilstrecke is often open as part of the hiking and mountain-bike trail around the track - but I guess one would need to be uncommonly fit...

I've never quite understood gradients as a percentage... e.g: 33% of what? Of vertical (surely not)? Of 1-in-1 ?

[jk]

The way they do gradient as percents in cycling, is like this: A 27% climb means that you have raised 27 metres laterally when you have done 100 metres vertically.
27% is VERY much. The toughes mountains in Tour de France have something like 8-9% in average, with something like 22% in the worst parts.

[David Shaw]

Yes, 27% means that for every 100 metres horizontally, you rise 27 vertically.

[Roger Clark]

Strictly, I thought it was 100 metres on the road, rather than horizontally (the sine of the angle rather than the tangent), purely because of the difficulty in measuring horizontal distance. For those used to a more old-fashioned way of expressing these things, 27% is a little steeper than 1 in 4.

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Steilstrecke is often open as part of the hiking and mountain-bike trail around the track - but I guess one would need to be uncommonly fit...

I have taken the following photos at the "Steilstrecke" about 6 weeks ago at the "Eifel-Klassik" Meeting. (Bira will add them in this place soon).

As you can see the surface is not real tarmac but sort of rippled bricks (see close up picture), still original as far as I know from the days when the Nürburgring was built.

There is hardly anything left from the Südschleife, just a few meters of overgrown tarmac hidden in the forest to the side of the road now leading from Müllenbach up to Start&Finish.

As Michael said, the Start&Finish loop (Betonschleife) was not very often used as a warm-up lap for the Grand Prix, but quite often for the 1000 KMs and 500 KMs from 1969 onward.

[Udo K.]

So I'm afraid Bira can't help here (posting the pics), understandable.

If somebody is interested to see how the place looks like today, please contact me via e-mail.

[LaurensDeJong]

In the meantime, here's the altitude profile of the Steilstrecke, from a 1927 magazine "Der Nürburg-Ring" (note the hyphenated spelling, later dropped):

[fines]

Surprise!

Not only did I find out that the first warm-up lap 'round the Betonschleife was already done in 1971, but it appears they did a full 14-point-sumfin-mile warm-up lap in 1973! Now that must have taken a little eternity to be completed!

[Holger Merten]

Thank you fines.

But wasn't it necessary to warm-up the engines before.

And what's about the 30s? Auto Union and Merceds Benz. As we know, they used different spark plugs, so some for the warm-up and some others for the race.

But did they warm up the engines in the pits or on the track?

[Holger Merten]

I found some interesting pic from the steilstrecke:




First one: preparations to built the "Steilstrecke" from 1926:


Second one: the "Steilstrecke", evrything is readyy in 1926:


Second and third one from 1946:
On the second one, you can see the "Karussell" in the background:




And a last one also from 1946:

[Barry Boor]

Rather than start another thread, I have a Nurburgring question.

While reading 'Racing the Silver Arrows', again, a sentence from the Autocar report of the 1935 German Grand Prix has me really puzzled. The report tells of the start of the race, wherein the cars roar off to the South Turn (described as a hairpin!), then back up behind the pits, again in full view of the grandstand. Then comes the sentence I find puzzling. I quote:

"Then we see them again, dropping with incredible rapidity down the winding valley that leads into the Eifel mountains."

This puzzles me because although I have been to the Ring I saw virtually nothing of it, but what film I have seen gives the impression that once the cars take the second left-hander behind the pits, they would immediately be lost from sight. Is it simply that the Hatzenbach forest was no more than a copse of baby trees in 1935?

What is the truth of the matter?

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Rather than start another thread, I have a Nurburgring question.

While reading 'Racing the Silver Arrows', again, a sentence from the Autocar report of the 1935 German Grand Prix has me really puzzled. The report tells of the start of the race, wherein the cars roar off to the South Turn (described as a hairpin!), then back up behind the pits, again in full view of the grandstand. Then comes the sentence I find puzzling. I quote:

"Then we see them again, dropping with incredible rapidity down the winding valley that leads into the Eifel mountains."

This puzzles me because although I have been to the Ring I saw virtually nothing of it, but what film I have seen gives the impression that once the cars take the second left-hander behind the pits, they would immediately be lost from sight. Is it simply that the Hatzenbach forest was no more than a copse of baby trees in 1935?

What is the truth of the matter?

Could well be. If you were sitting on the right hand part of the main grandstand you might have been able to see the cars going through the first Hatzenbach curves. Nowadays the trees are mostly gone and you can see this section as well.

[Barry Boor]

Nowadays the trees are mostly gone

What's this! Sounds like a serious breach of conservation issues. Who has removed the trees and why?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
What's this! Sounds like a serious breach of conservation issues. Who has removed the trees and why?

Note that the trees weren't there in 1935...

Hence, they are not subject to any conservation orders, it's quite clear.

In fact, having been planted under the Nazi regime, they should have been slated for removal some time ago. But clearer heads figured that their worth in building materials would increase if left a little longer...

[Holger Merten]

Barrym you are right. It's puzzling.

The ring has changed his face, so 77 years ago there was the "Südkehre", and the driver came paralell to the start-lane, before going onto the "Nordschleife".

And the Hatzenbach question may is answered in the pics I posted. Look how the landmark changed. The Ring opened in 1927, they had their bulldozers there. So in 1935 the trees had 7 years to grow.

Have a look on this

They started from the infield between "Start und Ziel" in direction to the "A", down to the "Südkehre" than to "1" back to pass all the visitors once again, going on the real "Nordschleife" at "2". An than follows Hatzenbach.

[LaurensDeJong]

Barry, I have seen so many pictures the last few days, both on line and in my files, that I really can't summit the strength to go through them again to show you one or two of the first few kilometers of the Nordschleife. So you'll have to do with mere words, sorry.

I concur wit what Udo said, that from the grandstand you should be able to peer over the very short straight between Nordkehre and Hatzenbach (the highest point on the Nürburgring, higher than Hohe Acht) and see the cars turn left and down, then right and finally right again, into Hatzenbach proper. There was an earth bank to the left of the road in the early days, and not many trees. In fact, I don't think there were many trees on that side of the track at all. From the Mercedes Tribüne, you can still see the cars going into Hatzenbach today. But not very convincingly. I'd say that it's more a matter of dramatic writing than historical accuracy to say that you could see them "with incredible rapidity down the winding valley."

The Hatzenbach trees were always as dense as the pictures you know from the 1950s and 1960s. Of course, it was all thinned out considerably after 1970, and again more recently.

All of the woods around the Nürburgring are commercial, so you'd expect them to be logged from time to time. In general, though, there is more trees now than at any time before. Most staggeringly because there's not enough drivers complaining that they cannot see exactly the track ahead of them. [I'm going off at a tangent here.] Although trees close to the track were all cut down in 1970/1971 for greater visibility, there are many places nowadays that you cannot see very much at all because of the trees. All of Fuchsröhre, for example (to the left); and between Pflanzgarten and Schwalbenschwanz (to the right).

The Ring is fabulously everchanging, and studying photographs of different eras is forever rewarding.

[Holger Merten]

Thanks to Udo K. for the picture and Brun for hosting it, we can have a look on the Steilstrecke today:



Seems to be a small track and a good example, how the Ring had changed over the years, if you compare this picture to the older ones I posted in this thread. So it's time to use the old "Nordschleife" much more. Otherwise nature took it away.