174 replies to this topic

[bradbury west]

Looking at the Wiki link for the Titan cars, it still makes me think that Roy Thomas may have been the designer of the inclined engines in the Ausper FJ cars. Do we know where he was based with his facilities, dynos being rare birds in other than large garages.
Any thoughts?
For those not familiar with the Ausper marque, there is an excellent history of the marque on the internet written by Dick Willis , of this parish detailing the inclined engines.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 21 September 2018 - 00:32.

[Lee Nicolle]

Just looking at some of these pics and posts. Preferring 3 main blocks for less friction?  The poor old crank would be flexing all over the place increasing drag. Yet still running production style rockers, which are perfectly fine for a road car but drag a whole lot of power and actually lose lift in comparison to a roller rocker. I feel, even from the big tuners monkey see monkey do!!

[Rupertlt1]

Just read this thread. For the record:

 

First Formula Ford Race: July 2, 1967, Brands Hatch

Won by Ray Allen, in pre-crossflow Lotus 51.

 

http://www.brdc.co.uk/Ray-Allen

 

To quote Max Boyce: "I know because I was there!"

 

RGDS RLT

[Peter Morley]

Just looking at some of these pics and posts. Preferring 3 main blocks for less friction?  The poor old crank would be flexing all over the place increasing drag. Yet still running production style rockers, which are perfectly fine for a road car but drag a whole lot of power and actually lose lift in comparison to a roller rocker. I feel, even from the big tuners monkey see monkey do!!

 

The 1100cc version only has a 48mm stroke so the crank doesn't flex very much, especially when made of steel.

[Peter Morley]

Looking at the Wiki link for the Titan cars, it still makes me think that Roy Thomas may have been the designer of the inclined engines in the Ausper FJ cars. Do we know where he was based with his facilities, dynos being rare birds in other than large garages.
Any thoughts?
For those not familiar with the Ausper marque, there is an excellent history of the marque on the internet written by Dick Willis , of this parish detailing the inclined engines.
Roger Lund

 

Some people used Chrysler's dyno at Kew, no idea if that helps!

[bradbury west]

Thanks, Peter. I know a couple of people who used Kew, as did Emery with the Godiva I believe. I know Don Sim had one, but that would have been later, post Yimkin. It is just the concept of the Ausper engine and the extent of work involved for such a low volume venture.
Talking to Mike Costin over the years, he has denied any involvement at Cosworth.
Just curious.
Roger Lund

[Bloggsworth]

Thanks, Peter. I know a couple of people who used Kew, as did Emery with the Godiva I believe. I know Don Sim had one, but that would have been later, post Yimkin. It is just the concept of the Ausper engine and the extent of work involved for such a low volume venture.
Talking to Mike Costin over the years, he has denied any involvement at Cosworth.
Just curious.
Roger Lund

 

The dyno at Diva was severely stressed at 100BHP. Ken Marshall ran the dyno while I was there and Don let us use it to extract the last ounce from Paul Rendle's A Series used in his F3 Cooper. IIRC he extracted over 100BHP using an SU carb (I went outside, it sounded like grievous bodily harm to an engine, I couldn't listen) - I doubt it would have handled an MAE at full chat.

[David Birchall]

Bloggsworth: What do you remember about that particular engine-presumably it was an XSP unit?

[bradbury west]

Mentioning which, there was an XSP engined Cooper at the Revival this year.
Thanks for the Diva info, Bloggsworth, it fits in with my own sources.
Roger Lund

[Bloggsworth]

Bloggsworth: What do you remember about that particular engine-presumably it was an XSP unit?

 

Hmmm, doubtful, I think Paul had it rebuilt after he bought the car from Roy Lane up Manchester way. I remember one evening we drove down to the Tolworth area, from Bishops Stortford, where he bought a camshaft and I had beef in oyster sauce in a nearby restaurant (strange what irrelevant detail lodges itself in the inner recesses of the mind, only to pop up 55 years later). In one of those strange what goes around moments, a few races later, the engine threw a rod when a clinch-bolt broke. Subsequently, Paul sold the crankshaft to Richards Groombridge, who had been the fibre-glazier at Diva, and who drove what I believe was a Yimkin (or similar) clubman's car.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 25 September 2018 - 08:07.

[David Birchall]

I was under the impression that cars built by Cooper for FJ and F3 were always fitted with an XSP unit.  Perhaps the car Bloggsworth mentions had already 'used up' the XSP?  Although if the crank was worth saving it must have been something special.

 

I think it is remarkable that the BMC unit was able to compete at all with the MAE engine.

[Bloggsworth]

Paul's Cooper was a T59 Formula Junior (I think) so probably had a different engine from the original.

[BRG]

First Formula Ford Race: July 2, 1967, Brands Hatch

Won by Ray Allen, in pre-crossflow Lotus 51.

Was Lord Charles doing the spanner work?

[GTMRacer]

I was under the impression that cars built by Cooper for FJ and F3 were always fitted with an XSP unit.  Perhaps the car Bloggsworth mentions had already 'used up' the XSP?  Although if the crank was worth saving it must have been something special.

 

I think it is remarkable that the BMC unit was able to compete at all with the MAE engine.

 

Remember, Jackie Stewart was pretty successful in F3 with the T72 Cooper in 1964, more info here on the XSP: http://www.sebringsp...xspengines.html

They were pretty heavily modified engines in the works Coopers, with a imp gearbox I think?

[Rupertlt1]

A topic of interest to historic racers is when did the Ford engine first appear in a Cooper FJ?

Did Robert Dusinberre race one at Sebring 1961?

 

RGDS RLT

[GTMRacer]

I may check tonight if I get a minute, any excuse to get out Doug Nye's excellent Cooper Cars book out again.

[David Birchall]

Thanks GTMRacer:  somewhere I have the offficial BMC XSP parts book.  What the site you have linked to doesn't mention is that the blocks were special too, with provision for dry-sumping.  This was carried over into the Cooper S blocks and the later 1275 block.

The need for a stronger crank I can personally attest to after I scattered an original FJ engine in my Gemini.  The engine was not XSP!

[Bloggsworth]

Remember, Jackie Stewart was pretty successful in F3 with the T72 Cooper in 1964, more info here on the XSP: http://www.sebringsp...xspengines.html

They were pretty heavily modified engines in the works Coopers, with a imp gearbox I think?

 

I remember rebuilding the Jack Knight Imp gearbox in John Kendall's F3 Cooper in the paddock at Brands. Can't remember how I fixed it, but it worked after I put it back together - The mechanical equivalent of turning it off and turning it back on again perhaps...

Edited by Bloggsworth, 26 September 2018 - 15:43.

[GTMRacer]

Thanks GTMRacer:  somewhere I have the offficial BMC XSP parts book.  What the site you have linked to doesn't mention is that the blocks were special too, with provision for dry-sumping.  This was carried over into the Cooper S blocks and the later 1275 block.

The need for a stronger crank I can personally attest to after I scattered an original FJ engine in my Gemini.  The engine was not XSP!

 

I am building my race 1275 from one of these later Cooper S/1275GT blocks as the 2 lugs that were used for the dry sump are very handy for diverting the oil off to the filter and back in before it gets to the oil pump, you simply tap the oil way and plug the gap.

The XSP had this area already blocked in the casting.

[GTMRacer]

This is more detailed

 

http://www.sebringsp...han9-r-237.html

[Peter Morley]

XSP 222432 showing the dry sump pump (and the signs of a minor repair).

 

Edited by Peter Morley, 26 September 2018 - 17:37.

[David Birchall]

Ouch!

It also shows the two extra head bolts-one front and one rear that were also used on later engines--Who said racing doesn't improve the breed?  My XSP block still said "948" on the side-does this one?

 

(It is possible to install these head studs/bolts in earlier blocks but you have to remove the thermostat housing to access the front one!)

Edited by David Birchall, 26 September 2018 - 19:06.

[Peter Morley]

Ouch!

It also shows the two extra head bolts-one front and one rear that were also used on later engines--Who said racing doesn't improve the breed?  My XSP block still said "948" on the side-does this one?

 

(It is possible to install these head studs/bolts in earlier blocks but you have to remove the thermostat housing to access the front one!)

 

I've only got photos since I no longer have the engine but it doesn't appear to have 948 (950?) cast into the side and seems to have an extra lug cast in the spot where it would be (just behind the upper oil feed on the pump?).

[SJ Lambert]

[JtP2]

The fact that the XSP (the BMC equivalent to patch?) engine has the cast lug behind the oil pump instead of a cast in number, would suggest this is a Cooper S derived block. The chicken and egg argument is which came first? The Cooper S engine or the FJ .I personally reckon the might have started as different projects that very quickly dove tailed into one.