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#1 Dennis David

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 03:03

Was there ever a book about or by Lord Howe?

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#2 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 05:47

MOTOR RACING by The Right Hon. The Earl Howe, P.C., C.B.E. (Editor), a book published 1939 in London and part of The Lonsdale Library series of sports in the world.

#3 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 07:38

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
MOTOR RACING by The Right Hon. The Earl Howe, P.C., C.B.E. (Editor), a book published 1939 in London and part of The Lonsdale Library series of sports in the world.


Lord Howe's contribution to the book is a chapter on Continental Circuits.

#4 Paul Parker

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Posted 19 November 2002 - 08:39

Somewhere in the deeper recesses of my mind I thought that the Earl Howe had put his name to a book in the early/mid fifties, but perhaps I am mistaken.

Nevertheless there is a good summary of Howe's origins and career in David Venable's 1984 book The Racing Fifteen-Hundreds, Transport Bookman 1984. There is also a brief potted biography in the George Monkhouse/Roland King-Farlow 'GRAND PRIX RACING FACTS & FIGURES FOULIS in the three editions of this book, plus his exploits with the Delage and others in John Dugdale's super 1977 tome 'GREAT MOTOR SPORT of the Thirties, Wilton House Gentry. Inevitably he features in the various Bira books written by Chula and reprinted after WW2 by Foulis whilst the various classic car mags must have featured him at least once over the last 20-25 years.

I hope this helps.

#5 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 09:53

Dennis - Automobile Quarterly Volume 38, Number 3, also contains a short 2-page article about Lord Howe on page 104-105.

#6 Dennis David

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 13:37

Thanks

#7 Steve L

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 15:14

I know of three magazine articles on Earl Howe if these are any help: -

Thoroughbred & Classic Cars, April 1974, "Men & Machines - Earl Howe"
Old Motor (New Series), September 1981, "Earl Howe"
Motor Sport, June 1998, "Earl Howe - The Grand Old Man of Motor Racing"

Rivers Fletcher also mentions him a lot in his book "Mostly Motor Racing".

#8 VAR1016

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 15:25

Since the day I saw a picture of Lord Howe (sitting in his straight-eight Delage) I have never been able to wear my cap straight on my head!

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#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 17:46

If one believes contemporary motor racing directories etc Lord Howe was "Edward Richard Assheton, Viscount Curzon, better known as Earl Howe, born in 1884 ...".

I have never stirred myself to double-check through Burke's Peerage, but if he was indeed "Edward Richard Assheton", why was he always - as in always - addressed by his chums as 'Francis', and is today remembered by the survivors as 'Francis' Howe????

Just another of those irritating questions one means to ask but never gets round to tidying away... But that was before Leif Snellmann - with whom I will get even one day - introduced me to the magic of TNF.

DCN

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 19:04

Interesting
I have his given names as Francis Richard Henry Penn, which I think - though can't now be sure - came from Burke's
I wonder if one of us is a generation out?

#11 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 20:23

Dave - I think you've just solved the problem - see 'Motor Racing Directory' (I think this is right) 1956 which has offers the names I noticed....or perhaps it was a 1950s Guild of Motoring Writers lists - one or t'other, anyway...

DCN

#12 Udo K.

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 20:47

Georgano in his encyclopaedia also gives Edward, Richard Assheton etc.

It's often quite puzzling with British Lords, Earls and Viscounts. For me he is Francis Howe, which, of course, would better fit into David's information. Doug, can you maybe explain why he called himself Lord "Howe"?

#13 VAR1016

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 21:09

Originally posted by Udo K.
Georgano in his encyclopaedia also gives Edward, Richard Assheton etc.

It's often quite puzzling with British Lords, Earls and Viscounts. For me he is Francis Howe, which, of course, would better fit into David's information. Doug, can you maybe explain why he called himself Lord "Howe"?


Peers of the Realm are always referred to as "Lord", with the exception of Dukes (both Royal and otherwise) who are always referred to as "The Duke of XXX".

No-one is actually a "Lord" any more than he is a "Sir" (A knight or baronet).

Similarly, a brother of an hereditary peer's son (if the peer be the rank of Viscount or above) would be known as "Lord (e.g.) Peter Wimsey" - addressed as "Lord Peter" and not "Lord Wimsey". This is known as a courtesy title; his younger siblings would be addressed as "The Honourable xxx xxx"

Usually, a senior peer's eldest son, will have a title by virtue of his position: e.g. The Duke of Marlborough's son is known as The Marquis of Blandford. (To complicate things further, usually, but not always, a Marquis is the son of a duke, whilst a Marquess is a peer in his own right).

Finally, the ranks in ascending order are: Baron, Viscount, Earl, Marquess, Duke, Royal Duke. All Life Peers are Barons.

Earl Howe was not Francis Howe - Howe was not his "surname; this was Assheton; he was Lord Howe! (a.k.a., formally, as Earl Howe). Simnilarly the Duke of Norfolk's surname is Fitzalan-Howard; however, sometimes peers with names of counties (like Norfolk) might be refferred to as e.g. ~"John Norfolk"!!

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#14 VAR1016

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 21:22

Udo,

further to my previous posting, I should add that there is also a constitutional aspect to this point.

As an hereditary peer, Lord Howe, was entitled to sit in the House of Lords, which apart from being our upper house of parliament, is also the highest court in the land.

His rank was Earl, but he was entitled to sit in the Lords (where actually ranks of the peerage do not count).

Sadly this splendid 800-year-old institution, latterly always moderate in its judgements, has been destroyed by our philistine prime minister.

PdeRL

#15 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 November 2002 - 22:39

Just as further perspective from the land in which we drive on the left in order to meet the oncoming with our sword hands free, my friend Charles March at Goodwood - aka Lord March - was born as Lord Settrington, aka at school as Charles Settrington.

His father was the Earl of March, his grandfather the Duke of Richmond and Gordon.

When his grandfather died and his father inherited the title of Duke of Richmond and Gordon, Charles - the former Lord Settrington - became the Earl of March.

When Charles's first son was born, the little boy became Lord Settrington.

Oh yes, and the family name - short of the titles - is Gordon-Lennox.

As Charles Gordon-Lennox/Settrington/March-etc-etc-Ptang-Ptang-Oh-lay-Biscuit-Barrel admitted to me one day - "...for the first 30 or 40 years it is quite confusing...you wake up sometimes wondering just who the hell you are today...".

Which is why us common soldiery, wiv christian and surname demanding only seven letters, have quite a simple time, really... and why explaining 'the system' to non-Brits is rather like trying to explain the laws and ethos of cricket...

DCN

#16 Bernd

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Posted 27 November 2002 - 01:27

How did the Lord get an Australian Island named after him?

#17 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 November 2002 - 10:38

We used to be darned good sailors - if rather iffy navigators - and anything we bumped into, we grabbed. Like that really big island now known as Australia?

Having seen HMS Nottingham on her heavy-lift lighter about to be sent home in disgrace from Sydney Harbour - it's difficult to break the habit of bumping into things...

Admiral Lord Howe - 'Black Dick' to his men - gave Frenchie a bloody nose at Quiberon Bay 1759 and captured six of their ships and sank a couple more in the sea battle known as The Glorious First of June in 1794. He was already 68 years old at that time. In those splendidly politically incorrect days he was a personality to celebrate. Hurrah!

DCN

#18 VAR1016

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Posted 27 November 2002 - 10:44

Originally posted by Doug Nye
. In those splendidly politically incorrect days he was a personality to celebrate. Hurrah!

DCN

Amen.


So would I be right in inferring that someone like John Prescott or Ken Livingstone would be less likely to qualify?
:mad:

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#19 Udo K.

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Posted 27 November 2002 - 13:38

Thanks VAR1016 and Doug.. Amazing. Learned a lot

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 10:47

Getting back to DD's original question:-
I have just learned that a book in in preparation as we speak

It also seems there are not one but two Wimille books in the pipeline, both in French, and one covering Trintignant as well

#21 Barry Lake

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 12:23

Originally posted by David McKinney
It also seems there are not one but two Wimille books in the pipeline, both in French, and one covering Trintignant as well


In French only?

Bummer! We don't even have the Robert Benoist book translated into English yet.

I can read French a bit, but it's a struggle. Should have paid more attention when at school.

#22 Dennis David

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 16:30

Barons, Viscounts, Earls, Marquises, Dukes, Royal Dukes ... keeping track of chassis numbers seem simple in comparison!

#23 VAR1016

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 17:08

Originally posted by Dennis David
Barons, Viscounts, Earls, Marquises, Dukes, Royal Dukes ... keeping track of chassis numbers seem simple in comparison!


:wave: Yes indeed! :smoking:

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#24 paulhooft

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 18:32

I am afraid I have one car less...

Paul

#25 Bladrian

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 18:42

I have a friend called Duke Carver - hails from Pietermaritzburg, known colloquially as Sleepy Hollow. If he ever became a peer of the realm, would he then be known as Duke Duke, or Lord Duke? ;)

#26 VAR1016

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 19:18

Originally posted by Bladrian
I have a friend called Duke Carver - hails from Pietermaritzburg, known colloquially as Sleepy Hollow. If he ever became a peer of the realm, would he then be known as Duke Duke, or Lord Duke? ;)


:)

Well, were he to be granted a dukedom, then he could probably choose his title; he might be known as Duke Carver, The Duke of Sleepy Hollow!

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#27 ensign14

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 19:42

Originally posted by VAR1016
Earl Howe was not Francis Howe - Howe was not his "surname; this was Assheton; he was Lord Howe! (a.k.a., formally, as Earl Howe). Simnilarly the Duke of Norfolk's surname is Fitzalan-Howard; however, sometimes peers with names of counties (like Norfolk) might be refferred to as e.g. ~"John Norfolk"!!

PdeRL

And bishops, who are still entitled to sit with the Lords (the Lords Spiritual = bishops; Lords Temporal = Tony's cronies, the way it's going), take their Latinized episcopal sees as their surname. Hence the look of consternation on a receptionist's face when the Archbishop of York, dressed in full regalia, signed into a hotel with a woman as 'David Ebor & Mrs Hope'.

#28 Bladrian

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 20:05

"Tony's cronies " ........ :rotfl:

#29 917

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 20:35

Is Lord Howe (The Right Hon. The Earl Howe, P.C., C.B.E) the same title as Lord Howe (The Rt. Hon The Lord Howe of Aberavon, PC, QC)? Why have some Lords their surname in their title (Lord Howe of Aberavon, formerly Geoffrey Howe) and others not (Lord Nuffield, formerly William Morris)?

Kind regards
Michael

#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 20:37

Quite an entertaining example of mere commoners - like me - becoming confused by titled toffs is when Freddie, the Duke of Richmond & Gordon, once made a rare overseas trip to New York. Accommodation had been booked in a fairly sensible hotel there and when he ambled in on his own, carrying his own suitcase - as was his wont - he found the staff assembled to greet him, and a suite of rooms plus one single placed at his disposal - the suite for himself, the Duke of Richmond, and the single provided by the thoughtful hotel manager for '...your friend Gordon'...

DCN

#31 VAR1016

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 23:20

Originally posted by 917
Is Lord Howe (The Right Hon. The Earl Howe, P.C., C.B.E) the same title as Lord Howe (The Rt. Hon The Lord Howe of Aberavon, PC, QC)? Why have some Lords their surname in their title (Lord Howe of Aberavon, formerly Geoffrey Howe) and others not (Lord Nuffield, formerly William Morris)?

Kind regards
Michael


Yes, this is where it gets tricky.

The erstwhile SirGeoffrey Howe, a minister in Mrs Thatcher's government, was raised to the peerage (i.e. "kicked upstairs") and became a life peer - Lord Howe of Aberavon. It is possible that he and Earl Howe are related. I once had a TERRIBLE girlfriend named Sharon Howe; I sincerely hope that she was not related to Earl Howe!

A life peer is really not the same thing at all. And indeed it used to be said that there is a difference between peers whose titles originated before the restoration (1660) and those from afterwards. Pre-restoration peerages include the Dukes of Norfolk and Northumberland.

Lastly, I suppose I should add that although traditionally, peerages are passed through the male line, there are exceptions. I believe that the Countess of Mar (Countess is the female equivalent of Earl) is the premier peeress; her title dates from 1216 and may be passed through the female line.

[Edit] To answer your question, in William Morris's time, a peerage was an hereditary peerage, and so Morris chose the title of Lord Nuffield - I cannot recall what his rank was - i.e. whether he was a Baron or Viscount; I am sure that he was not as grand as an Earl, a title reserved in those times for retiring Prime Ministers. Incidentally, at the end of the war, Churchill was offered the title of Duke of Dover, but he declined. And Harold Macmillan, Prime Minister in the 1950s and early '60s was offered an Earldom but declined on the grounds that he had "No desire to join the ranks of those who had oppressed his ancestors". Later he changed his mind and became Earl of Stockton, a title that was inherited by his son.
PdeRL

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#32 VAR1016

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 23:50

And a few lines on the Aristocracy from Hilaire Beloc:

"L was a lady advancing in Age,
Who drove in a carriage and six,
With a couple of Footmen, a Coachman and Page,
who were all of them regular bricks.
If the coach ran away or was smashed by a Dray,
Or got into collisions and blocks,
The Page with a courtesy rare for his years,
Would leap to the ground with inspiriting cheers,
While the Footman allayed her legitimate fears,
And the Coachman sat tight on his box.
At night as they met round an excellent meal,
They would take it in turns to observe:
"What a Lady indeed!... what a presence to
feel!..."
"What a woman to worship and serve!..."
But perhaps, the most poignant of all their delights
Was to stand in a rapturous dream,
When she spoke to them kindly on Saturday nights
And said "They deserved her esteem."

MORAL

Now observe the Reward of these dutiful lives:
At the end of their loyal career
They each had a lodge at the end of the drives,
And she left them a hundred a year.
Remember from this to be properly vexed
When the newspaper editors say
That "The type of society shown in the Text
Is rapidly passing away."

From "A moral alphabet" - Hilaire Belloc.

PdeRL

#33 Ian McKean

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:01

Originally posted by VAR1016
...Sadly this splendid 800-year-old institution, latterly always moderate in its judgements, has been destroyed by our philistine prime minister.

PdeRL


True!

#34 VAR1016

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:03

Originally posted by Ian McKean


True!



:up: :up: :up:

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#35 Roger Clark

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:31

Originally posted by Ian McKean


True!


Presumably Mr McKean and Mr VAR1016 think the rot started with the 1832 Reform Bill.

Or as Queen victoria said much later "The queen thinks that if this act is passed we shall all go sliding down into Democaracy" (quoted by Pomeroy to keep it on topic.)


#36 VAR1016

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:37

Originally posted by Roger Clark


Presumably Mr McKean and Mr VAR1016 think the rot started with the 1832 Reform Bill.

Or as Queen victoria said much later "The queen thinks that if this act is passed we shall all go sliding down into Democaracy" (quoted by Pomeroy to keep it on topic.)


No, that's not what I wrote; my principal problem is with BLAIR. However I would agree that the rot started with the Parliament acts of 1910/11; they did not help my cause.

As for Democracy, I'm not really a fan; I simply am unable to accept that a football ("kickball") hooligan's vote should count the same as mine.

So convince me otherwise...

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#37 ensign14

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 07:18

The problem with the changes in the House of Lords is not so much that changes are being made, it's that the changes are so cack-handed as to be totally pointless. The Lords used to include people who were brought up KNOWING they'd be part of Parliament and educated accordingly, or experts in particular fields, so legislation would get expert scrutiny (which is really all the Lords could do anyway). Now it's just political sycophants and donors. -political rant mode off

#38 Dennis David

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 07:41

...your friend Gordon



That's hysterical Doug, must have though that Gordon was your friend's butt brother so to speak ... :lol:

#39 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 09:58

There has been an extremely common-sensical attitude to our House of Lords for decades which held that its majority selection by birth - i.e. including a broad cross-section of bright people, dumb people, really stupid people, folk with detailed specialist interests (from brain surgery to Chairmanship of the Flat Earth Society), eccentrics, loonies, caring people, sadists, masochists, almost every hue and brew bar communists - actually provided a better chance of sensible Government than our elected House of Commons.

The latter - by definition - included as many good people as it did total dross, but the one thing they all had in common was the deception and self-projection inseparable from political ambition...producing a majority who have been inherently untrustworthy to the core.

Born peers might range from the gifted and capable to the utterly witless and plumb certifiable - but they certainly offered a better cross-section of humanity. This has all changed now with the proliferation of elevated former politicos....who have been kicked upstairs..

'Our' Earl Howe was a Naval officer who did more than his bit for his nation and for his people - and who certainly did more than his bit for his chosen sport. He was an impressive figure - and a popular one. He was a very accident prone driver - particularly on the public road - but he is properly recalled with respect...

DCN

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#40 Ian McKean

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 18:13

I think most people now accept that heredity is 4 times more important than environment (or thereabouts - I am not a whatever-it-is-ologist) when determining intelligence/talent, call it what you will. You wouldn't try breeding a racehorse from a carthorse.

Since the ancestors of the aristocracy were able to struggle to the top of the pile the chances are that their descendants have inherited some of that talent. And they have all had a good education, the best that money can buy.

And as has been pointed out, the bulk of them have accumulated experience in different fields, particularly law, that cannot be matched by the elected members of the Commons

This is why the standard of debate in the Lords is generally acknowledged to be higher than in the Commons.

If any further proof is needed it is surely provided by the results of the Lords vs Commons races in identical Ford Mexicos at Brands (do they still hold these events?).

I must add that I am not an aristocrat. I merely feel that my interests (and the interests of all who support the democratic process and the freedoms that most of us aspire to) are more likely to be secured by a strong House of Lords.

PS
I should add that the bloodline of the English aristocracy was enriched in the last century by the practice of marrying rich American heiresses. Again, a pool of talent, as their ancestors had been unusually successful in business.

#41 Bladrian

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 19:33

Originally posted by Doug Nye
There has been an extremely common-sensical attitude to our House of Lords for decades which held that its majority selection by birth - i.e. including a broad cross-section of bright people, dumb people, really stupid people, folk with detailed specialist interests (from brain surgery to Chairmanship of the Flat Earth Society), eccentrics, loonies, caring people, sadists, masochists, almost every hue and brew bar communists - actually provided a better chance of sensible Government than our elected House of Commons.

The latter - by definition - included as many good people as it did total dross, but the one thing they all had in common was the deception and self-projection inseparable from political ambition...producing a majority who have been inherently untrustworthy to the core.

Born peers might range from the gifted and capable to the utterly witless and plumb certifiable - but they certainly offered a better cross-section of humanity. This has all changed now with the proliferation of elevated former politicos....who have been kicked upstairs..

'Our' Earl Howe was a Naval officer who did more than his bit for his nation and for his people - and who certainly did more than his bit for his chosen sport. He was an impressive figure - and a popular one. He was a very accident prone driver - particularly on the public road - but he is properly recalled with respect...

DCN


A better cross-section of humanity .... yep, that sums it up. Periodically, there have been very good examples of this principle in action - every time there is a war. The quality of the conscripted armies have, historically, been considerably better than the standing, volunteer forces. Fact of life. Thus - the lords would be the conscriptees, having been drafted into political duty whether they wanted to be there or not, and the politicians are in government by choice. There's a lesson there, somewhere ......

#42 ensign14

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 20:56

Originally posted by Ian McKean
PS
I should add that the bloodline of the English aristocracy was enriched in the last century by the practice of marrying rich American heiresses. Again, a pool of talent, as their ancestors had been unusually successful in business.

Including the parents of a certain chap called Churchill.

#43 Roger Clark

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 21:02

It is the best thing in fiction the English have ever done. (Wilde)

#44 David J Jones

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 22:26

Too much nonsense in this thread about the House of Lords - should have dumped them in 45.

Too many appeasers there - the aristos certainly did not support WSC. Thank the Lord he prevailed with the help of Lib/Lab.

#45 VAR1016

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 23:16

Originally posted by David J Jones
Too many appeasers there - the aristos certainly did not support WSC. Thank the Lord he prevailed with the help of Lib/Lab.


A bit of a generalisation I think.

Lord Lovat springs to mind...

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#46 Ian McKean

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 23:42

Originally posted by David J Jones
Too many appeasers there - the aristos certainly did not support WSC. Thank the Lord he prevailed with the help of Lib/Lab.



You're not thinking of Lord Hawhaw are you?

#47 VAR1016

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 00:15

Originally posted by Ian McKean



You're not thinking of Lord Hawhaw are you?


:rotfl:

And many of the Long-Range Desert Group and Commandos were aristocrats too

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#48 O Volante

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 14:25

Again, due to other commitments I was not able to have a look in this matter earlier!

The man known in racing circles as "Lord Howe" was ...

'FRANCIS RICHARD HENRY PENN, 5th Earl Howe , P.C., C.B.E., V.D., educ. Eton, and Ch. Ch. Oxford, Cdre. R.N.V.R., a junior Lord of the Treasury (unpaid) 1924-29, a Trustee of Imperial War Museum from 1925, Pres. R.N.V.R. Club and British Racing Drivers' Club, Chm. Royal Nat. Life Boat Instn., Vice-Pres. Commn. Sportif Internationale Competitions Cttee., R.A.C., Assist. Gunnery Officer, H.M.S. Queen Elizabeth 1914-19, Senior Inspector Degaussing in World War II, M.P. for S. Div. of Battersea 1918-29, A.D.C. (R.N.V.R.) to H.M. KING GEORGE V 1925-28, sworn of the Privy Council of Great Britain 5 July, 1929, b. 1 May, 1884, m. 1stly, 28 Oct. 1907 (m. diss. by div. 1937), Mary (d. 1 Sept. 1962), only dau. of Col. Hon. Montagu Curzon, son of 1st Earl Howe, and had issue,

1. EDWARD RICHARD ASSHETON PENN, 6th and present Earl.

...

His Lordship d. 26 July, 1964, and was s. by his only son.'

(Burke's Peerage, 105th ed., 1970 - which just happens to be available here in our local library - p. 1389.)

Apparently father and son were confused at times!

PS: The 5th Earl's second child, Georgiana Mary, married in 1935 a man not unknown in racing circles pre-war: 'Lieut. Home Ronald Archibald Kidston, R.N., yr. son of late Capt. Archibald Glen Kidston. J.P.' - a sometimes Bugatti and Mercedes racer, I would think; his older brother was, of course, Bentley boy Glen Kidston ...

#49 David McKinney

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 17:09

Home Kidston did a bit of racing in New Zealand in the '30s
His son Simon Kidston is well known in the historic-car auction business: he is president of Bonhams (Europe) SA

#50 David J Jones

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 21:51

Ian McKean

You stated 'You're not thinking of Lord Hawhaw are you?' I can answer most certainly not. The facts of the period between May'40 and September'42 are beginning to come to the surface. I believe you will be shocked in future years as they become known.

As shocked as I was in the mid '70s when we learned about how much we knew of German military plans from 1940 onwards (WSC's Golden Goose)