43 replies to this topic

[arthurive]

With the current sponsorhip problems at Jordan, I ask the question:
Can Jordan afford Fisichella?
His salary is reported to be in the $6M range and I believe it's coming straight
from the team's pockets.
I am concerned for two reasons:
1) Fisichella is my favourite driver
2) F1 contracts have been often been rendered meaningless.

There is plenty of speculation about the 2nd seat (Sato/Irvine/Massa/Davidson) depending
on title sponsor, but what if EJ simply can't afford Fisichella for 2003?
It could get ugly.

[KenC]

Originally posted by arthurive
With the current sponsorhip problems at Jordan, I ask the question:
Can Jordan afford Fisichella?
His salary is reported to be in the $6M range and I believe it's coming straight
from the team's pockets.
I am concerned for two reasons:
1) Fisichella is my favourite driver
2) F1 contracts have been often been rendered meaningless.

There is plenty of speculation about the 2nd seat (Sato/Irvine/Massa/Davidson) depending
on title sponsor, but what if EJ simply can't afford Fisichella for 2003?
It could get ugly.

Well, he could pull a Walkinshaw on Verstappen move, and just not pay him. Actually, your post brings up an interesting point, why aren't Italian drivers expected to bring along a little sponsorship. An Italian, Ascari, hasn't won a WDC in what, 50 years? Fisi is highly marketable, one would think. You'd think Italian sponsors would love to sponsor Fisi. I'd think Eddie would have an easier time trying to get Italian sponsors to support the team, than Japanese sponsors to support Sato, or British sponsors to support Irvine. Then again, given the recent bankruptcies of Fiorentina and Lazio, maybe there isn't as much money available for sport in Italy right now.

[Jackman]

Originally posted by KenC
An Italian, Ascari, hasn't won a WDC in what, 50 years?

And given that he's dead, it seem reasonably unlikely that he'll win again in the future, either ;)

There are a lot of financial woes in the Italian market these days. The country's largest company (FIAT SpA) seems unlikely to sponsor Jordan, and Olivetti is a competitor of Brother, so that seems unlikely too. Alitalia have little need for sponsorship. Pirelli aren't going to sponsor a team with Bridgestone tyres. The insurance companies and banks are too local to get anything out of it. I guess Bindi cakes could, but I doubt they will.

Italians, of course, look at little other than the red cars. Hence the lack of Italian sponsorship.

And to the original point, if Jordan dropped Fisico they would still have to pay his wage - better to keep him on board and scoring points then to piss him off and pay him to do nothing.

[Frisco]

Fisichella is my favorite driver also but I don't think Eddie will get rid of him for the simple reason that he would probably have to pay out his salary anyway (ala Frentzen) so you may as well have him driving for you as opposed to paying him to drive against you. Now, the real reason Fisi's job should be secure is because he's a hell of a driver, but that's not the way F1 works for the smaller teams unfortunately.

Pulling a 'walkinshaw' (or a 'Jordan' for that matter in the case of Frentzen), isn't the greatest of ideas as recent history has shown. As I'd mentioned in the first paragraph, Eddie still had to pay a large portion of Frentzen's salary for this year, and Jos Verstappen's lawyers I think are still in litigation with walkinshaw (at one point they were trying to wind up the team in an attempt to get his salary back).

As for Fisi's marketability, you just have to read the Gazzetto Dello Sporto to realize that Fisi and Trulli are completely secondary in the minds of most Italians relative to Ferrari. I would love to see Fisi go to Monza and see an audience swathed in a sea of yellow Jordan caps (ala Sato in Japan) but that'll never happen. And unlike Trulli, who's boss is also his manager, Fisi has no real insider connections in F1 (we frequently debate about the job Gianpaolo Matanucci -- Fisi's manager-- has done over at Fisi's website). As a result, although I think a lot of sponsors may like Fisi, they realise that his marketing potential is significantly smaller than some other drivers.

No, if Fisi makes it to the big time someday, it'll be on merit and merit alone, and that will be even more sweet.

Francesco

[SeanValen]

Eddie Jordan a miracle worker, anything is possible, the Jordan factor, he's on the edge of business deals.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by SeanValen
Eddie Jordan a miracle worker, anything is possible, the Jordan factor, he's on the edge of business deals.

A good boost from the "confidence booster" master himself. Thank you.

[EddieJF1]

The team seems to be a mess and driver contracts should be the least of EJ's worries right now. I'd keep Fisi for his contract duration and possibly beyond, but the team needs cash and stability. I would think having Sato would be good to land some Japanese sponsors, and increase the fan base. If Fisi's contract was up, I'd also say that landing Salo would be good for some Japanese marketing and getting more cash into the team for a year or two.

Ah, but what really helps is having the Ferrari formula: Team stability, reliability, and cash

[MortenF1]

Fisi is safe. I think. He must be, 'cause he's one of the strongest assets Jordan have got. But as for the second driver, it won't be long till Pedro de la Rosa is in the running.... (Repsol...?)

[Rene]

Given what EJ did to HHF right before the German GP (Im sure that DHL was thrilled with the move ) I would put nothing past him, if he has to choose the survival of the team, or keeping GF, I have no doubts what he would do. I hope that is not the case mind you...

[taran]

Originally posted by Jackman
And to the original point, if Jordan dropped Fisico they would still have to pay his wage - better to keep him on board and scoring points then to piss him off and pay him to do nothing.

In a perfect world, you'd be right....
But this is F1!

EJ has still not paid Frentzen and the matter is still being negotiated.
If Jordan could find another driver willing to offer $7m and that is what Eddie needs to survive, Fisichella would be (f)axed immediately ;) .

Jordan would then stall payment of Fisichella for as long as possible, earning $7m to use in 2003.

F1 is that simple for unscrupulous Walkinshawites. Unfortunately, Eddie joined those ranks in 2001 when he sacked Frentzen. The loveable rogue has simply become a rogue.

Question is, will Brother walk if Sato is replaced and how much are they contributing anyway? If they are smart they will have built in excape clause if Sato is replaced.

[giddyup409]

With all the pasta I eat, you would think Barilla would be a good Eyetalian sponsor ;)

[Earthling]

Fisichella brings in the money the way it should be....by earning WDC points!

[Daniel Lester]

Fisi and Sato should stay and be paid. Jordan have two drivers they know, are well versed in the way the team works. If money is tight then testing will be limited as will development, thus it'll be important to have two drivers the team trust in order to make the best possible progress on and off the track.

[RedFever]

"An Italian, Ascari, hasn't won a WDC in what, 50 years? Fisi is highly marketable, one would think. You'd think Italian sponsors would love to sponsor Fisi. I'd think Eddie would have an easier time trying to get Italian sponsors to support the team, than Japanese sponsors to support Sato, or British sponsors to support Irvine. Then again, given the recent bankruptcies of Fiorentina and Lazio, maybe there isn't as much money available for sport in Italy right now."

None of the above is related to the real Italian situation, actually.

1) Italian sponsors, like every sponsor, love immediate returns on image. Look at who is winning....

2) In Italy there is a cartain team called Ferrari. This is a team like no other in terms of sponsor power (while many were struggling to make ends meet, Ferrari last season "fired" Ferrero, FedEx and Tommy Hillfiger.....). Most companies interested to get in F1 will sponsor Ferrari (if they are that big, like Ferrero Tic Tac in the past) or will sponsor the drivers (even if German, Schumacher is in fact more famous than Fisichella in Italy. Even Rubens enjoys a lot of "Ferrari Karma", so he drows attention too). That leaves crums available to Italian drivers.

3) Italians are not nationalistic like people in Britain, France, USA, Japan, Brazil, etc. Other than the soccer team and Ferrari, hardly anything brings them together in a sense of nation. Italy was composed by hundreds of principalities from the times of the fall of the Roman Empire to 1868. They are most likely to have fought each other in the past then being related. As a country, it only exists for 134 years, but the common language and artistic and historical heritage keeps it together much more than any sense of nationalism. So, unlike the UK, there is little interest in having an Italian win the WDC. It would be a nice addition to a Ferrari win, but between a Ferrari WDC with a foreign driver and an Italian driver winning a WDC in a foreign car, Italians will always chose the first. Sponsors have noticed..................

4) Lazio and Fiorentina are entirely unrelated to F1 sponsorships. Lazio was floted as a public company on the stock exchange. Companies lose or make money. Fiorentina was suffering from the personal problems of the owner Cecchi Gori (yes, the movie producer). These two soccer teams have no problems attracting sponsorships, their problems were entirely unrelated.

5) The Italian economy is very different from the Japanese or British economy. Although Italy is a rich country with the 6th largest GDP, very close to the UK in fact, the industry is very different. Large multinational corporations like FIAT, Parmalat, Bennetton, Barilla, Pirelli, Ferrero, etc., are only a handful and are currently suffering the aftermath of the economic slowdown of the last recession. In reality, 80% of industrial output is produced by medium/small companies (100 to 500 workers - mostly in the North and Center of Italy) with specialized high-end output (take shoes and leather manufacturers in Tuscany and Lumbardy, for an example or gourmet food all over the country). Even technology or mechanical companies find very specific niches and exploit them (machines that seal tea bags in the US or every coffee machine at Starbucks are made in Italy). While these companies are often highly profitable, hence the wealthy lifestyle in the country, their size is not big enough to require an F1 sponsorship. Also, often their market is not the consumer, but larger foreign corporations.

For all of the above, Eddie needs to find sponsors elsewhere, since it is possible but not likely to find many in Italy. He should shop in the UK if he gets Eddie or Japan if he gets Sato and use Fisichella as the top quality driver bonus.............

[arthurive]

REDFEVER

You may have "hit the nail on the head" regarding something that's been puzzling
me for quite some time.

I've always wondered why there has not been a "great" Italian driver for such a long
period of time. There have been plenty of talented Italians: Bandini/Patrese/Alboreto/deAngelis
and now Fisichella nd possibly Trulli. But we've never seen an Italian manage to get the
World Championship (yes, Asacari and Farina, but I'm talking modern times)
Could it be that there has indeed been an Italian or two that could've done it, but they
simply aren't "driven" psychologically? If what you say is true, that Italy in general really
doesn't care about Italian drivers, then maybe they (Italian drivers) sense the apathy and really
don't have the "fire in the belly", because there is no sense of nationalism in the homeland.

[RedFever]

Not entirely true.

I would consider DeAngelis and Pierluigi Martini as WDC material, no doubt about it. Elio destroyed a certain Mansell and Nigel still today considers Elio a fantastic driver. However, Elio's was a personal situation, He was from the Roman elite, extremely rich, had too many interests apart from F1 (women and piano had top priority). He lacked the dedication of a Senna, driving out of sheer talent and instinct. Ayrton also respected him more than any other teammate he had for his driving.

Martini simply never had the equipment.

I don't think the lack of national support takes anything away from Italian drivers. F1 racing is an international sport and crowds of fans are available everywhere. I doubt Fisichella has any less desire to win then DC and Button, regardless of their fans support. What Italian drivers are suffering from is lack of financial support in a career that requires tons of money. Ferrari absorbs too much interest. Now even the junior Formulas are sinking. Italian F3 was the most competitive after the British F3. Now it's a disaster, the best Italian drivers go abroad in places like Germany (Trulli and Liuzzi, among others).

[KenC]

Originally posted by RedFever
What Italian drivers are suffering from is lack of financial support in a career that requires tons of money. Ferrari absorbs too much interest. Now even the junior Formulas are sinking. Italian F3 was the most competitive after the British F3. Now it's a disaster, the best Italian drivers go abroad in places like Germany (Trulli and Liuzzi, among others).

Doesn't this contradict what you posted above? You point out that Italy is dominated by medium-sized companies, that don't have the resources or need to sponsor a team like Ferrari in an international sport like F1. Why don't these companies sponsor drivers/teams in Italian F3?

[RedFever]

because, as I mentioned above, Italian companies, although medium sized, have most of their revenues coming from abroad. Sponsoring an Italian driver will do little to increase their market share of the Brazilian or US market.

Just look at Parmalat (even if not medium sized, its revenues come mostly from abroad), they heavily supported a mediocre driver like Pedro Diniz, but never considered spending a penny on Fisichella. Now you would agree Fisichella has a little more talent than Pedro, I think even Molive would. That's why UHT milk has a huge market in Latin America and Pedro's dad is a large Parmalat distributor via his supermarket chain......

Companies that instead have a more local/national distribution focus instead heavily on soccer, where there are teams at all levels going from Serie A all the way to Serie C, so about 80 professional teams for all pocket sizes (obviously sponsoring AC Milan costs more than sponsoring Trento, as Milan opens up international markets).

In addition, as far as speed addiction goes, after Ferrari/Formula 1, Italians are a lot more into bike racing than junior car formulas. The same people that watch Schumacher in his Ferrari prefer to watch Valentino Rossi, Melandri, Biaggi, Capirossi, etc fighting it out in World championships than watching developing drivers racing in F3 in Italy. In the past 20 years in fact, Italian drivers have been more and more winning in bikes and less and less present in F1. And clearly the Valentino effect is bringing more people away from car racing to watching MotoGP.

[KenC]

Originally posted by RedFever
1) Italian sponsors, like every sponsor, love immediate returns on image. Look at who is winning....

Yes, "like every sponsor", but that doesn't stop "every sponsor" from other countries from sponsoring teams and drivers, even if they aren't winning immediately.

Originally posted by RedFever
2) In Italy there is a cartain team called Ferrari. This is a team like no other in terms of sponsor power (while many were struggling to make ends meet, Ferrari last season "fired" Ferrero, FedEx and Tommy Hillfiger.....). Most companies interested to get in F1 will sponsor Ferrari (if they are that big, like Ferrero Tic Tac in the past) or will sponsor the drivers (even if German, Schumacher is in fact more famous than Fisichella in Italy. Even Rubens enjoys a lot of "Ferrari Karma", so he drows attention too). That leaves crums available to Italian drivers.

While I know Ferrero, FedEx and Hilfiger parted ways with Ferrari, to say they were "fired", doesn't seem like a good business practice.

Hmmm....given that Ferrari seems to exhibit a black hole effect in terms of sponsorship and attention, perhaps it would be better for F1, if Luca did pull Ferrari out of F1? The other teams would get sponsorship, and the Italian drivers would get some attention, no?

Originally posted by RedFever
3) Italians are not nationalistic like people in Britain, France, USA, Japan, Brazil, etc. Other than the soccer team and Ferrari, hardly anything brings them together in a sense of nation. Italy was composed by hundreds of principalities from the times of the fall of the Roman Empire to 1868. They are most likely to have fought each other in the past then being related. As a country, it only exists for 134 years, but the common language and artistic and historical heritage keeps it together much more than any sense of nationalism. So, unlike the UK, there is little interest in having an Italian win the WDC. It would be a nice addition to a Ferrari win, but between a Ferrari WDC with a foreign driver and an Italian driver winning a WDC in a foreign car, Italians will always chose the first. Sponsors have noticed..................

Yes, we know about the Italian nation-states. How you can conclude that Italy is any less "nationalistic" than any other country is beyond me. You do know that Great Britian is composed of the English, the Scots, the Welsh and some of the Irish? And, they "fought each other in the past", just like the Italian nation-states.

Originally posted by RedFever
4) Lazio and Fiorentina are entirely unrelated to F1 sponsorships. Lazio was floted as a public company on the stock exchange. Companies lose or make money. Fiorentina was suffering from the personal problems of the owner Cecchi Gori (yes, the movie producer). These two soccer teams have no problems attracting sponsorships, their problems were entirely unrelated.

I did NOT say they were "related to F1 sponsorship. I meant to imply the bankruptcies of two of the largest soccer teams in Serie A, are poisoning the atmosphere for sports sponsorship in Italy.

I wonder if you understand business at all!!! If "these two soccer tams have no problems attracting sponsorships", then why are they bankrupt? Clearly, they spend more on wages, transfer fees, and other expenses than they can raise in sponsorships. Do the math.

Originally posted by RedFever
5) The Italian economy is very different from the Japanese or British economy. Although Italy is a rich country with the 6th largest GDP, very close to the UK in fact, the industry is very different. Large multinational corporations like FIAT, Parmalat, Bennetton, Barilla, Pirelli, Ferrero, etc., are only a handful and are currently suffering the aftermath of the economic slowdown of the last recession. In reality, 80% of industrial output is produced by medium/small companies (100 to 500 workers - mostly in the North and Center of Italy) with specialized high-end output (take shoes and leather manufacturers in Tuscany and Lumbardy, for an example or gourmet food all over the country). Even technology or mechanical companies find very specific niches and exploit them (machines that seal tea bags in the US or every coffee machine at Starbucks are made in Italy). While these companies are often highly profitable, hence the wealthy lifestyle in the country, their size is not big enough to require an F1 sponsorship. Also, often their market is not the consumer, but larger foreign corporations.

Yes, the industrial heartland of Italy is centered around the Po Valley.

Originally posted by RedFever
For all of the above, Eddie needs to find sponsors elsewhere, since it is possible but not likely to find many in Italy. He should shop in the UK if he gets Eddie or Japan if he gets Sato and use Fisichella as the top quality driver bonus.............

What, doesn't Irvine have any "Ferrari karma" any more? You did say Italians aren't as nationalistic, didn't you?

[KenC]

Originally posted by RedFever
because, as I mentioned above, Italian companies, although medium sized, have most of their revenues coming from abroad. Sponsoring an Italian driver will do little to increase their market share of the Brazilian or US market.

Just look at Parmalat (even if not medium sized, its revenues come mostly from abroad), they heavily supported a mediocre driver like Pedro Diniz, but never considered spending a penny on Fisichella. Now you would agree Fisichella has a little more talent than Pedro, I think even Molive would. That's why UHT milk has a huge market in Latin America and Pedro's dad is a large Parmalat distributor via his supermarket chain......

Actually, wasn't Diniz's deal a b2b deal? The S. American branch of Parmalat, not the Italian parent company, did a deal with Diniz's dad for Parmalat shelf exposure in S. America?

Originally posted by RedFever
Companies that instead have a more local/national distribution focus instead heavily on soccer, where there are teams at all levels going from Serie A all the way to Serie C, so about 80 professional teams for all pocket sizes (obviously sponsoring AC Milan costs more than sponsoring Trento, as Milan opens up international markets).

Which brings me back to my point that Lazio's and Fiorentina's bankruptcies may be putting a damper on sports sponsorship in Italy.

Originally posted by RedFever
In addition, as far as speed addiction goes, after Ferrari/Formula 1, Italians are a lot more into bike racing than junior car formulas. The same people that watch Schumacher in his Ferrari prefer to watch Valentino Rossi, Melandri, Biaggi, Capirossi, etc fighting it out in World championships than watching developing drivers racing in F3 in Italy. In the past 20 years in fact, Italian drivers have been more and more winning in bikes and less and less present in F1. And clearly the Valentino effect is bringing more people away from car racing to watching MotoGP.

Huh, didn't you say Italians aren't nationalistic, and don't care if Italian drivers/riders are winning? Wouldn't they care more if an italian bike manufacturer won?

And, if "more and more winning", is what is stimulating Italian interest in MotoGP, then doesn't this go back to my point of Ascari? Perhaps, the Italian disaffection with Italian drivers is because they haven't had a WDC in 50 years?

[RedFever]

I am intrigued by your arrogance. I am glad you know Italy so well, however what you write is incorrect. After all, I was born, raised and lived there for 29 years. So, I really think I know a little more about the subject than you. Regarding my understanding of business, well, I have to laugh at your puerile remark on whether I do understand it or not.


If "these two soccer teams have no problems attracting sponsorships", then why are they bankrupt?

Lazio has problems attracting sponsors?????????????? Laughable statement. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

List of Lazio's current sponsors:
Official Sponsor:
Siemens Mobile

Technical Sponsor:
Puma

Institutional Sponsors:
AMD
Capitalia
Corrire dello Sport
Radio Dimensione Suono
Club Vacanze
TIM (by the way, another ex-Ferrari sponsor, I forgot...)

Plus there are 9 Official Providers, including DelMonte, Cirio and Grana Padana.

Plus 12 Official Partners, including ENEL, Gatorade, and Iveco.

I would hardly call this difficulty in "attracting sponsors"......................

Wow, I didn't realize your understanding of how an Italian soccer team earns revenues was so limited. Why do you lecture people about it though, when you clearly are unfamiliar with the subject???? Attracting sponsorships and overspending are entirely not related. Lazio still attracts sponsorships that would be more than enough to launch the careers of many Italian drivers (in fact Italians follow soccer more closely than F1 and DEFINETELY more than F3, so sponsorships are easier to find for soccer teams).


"Clearly, they spend more on wages, transfer fees, and other expenses than they can raise in sponsorships."

Really? and you discovered this all by yourself???? You got some business acumen!!!! the sponsorship of a top soccer team is hardly enough to pay the salary of the team's top 7-8 players for a year!!!! So, your point is ludicrous. Every soccer team in Seria A spends more money, a LOT more money than they can raise with sponsorships. The fact that Lazio has monetary problems for overspending in salaries, etc, has absolutely zero to do with the sponsorship situation. Lazio attracts better sponsorship deals than most teams in Italy (just behind Inter, Milan, Juventus and Roma), being one of the two teams of the capital. Lazio has some of the very best sponsorship deals in Serie A, in factm many times over what Chievo Verona or Udinese get, but those teams are not bankrupt...........

I would have expected that a financial wiz of your caliber would understand that Pirelli's sponsorship at Inter Milan, for example, was not even enough to buy either Vieri or Crespo, let alone the other 30 players of the team, coach, athletic and medical stuff, etc. These teams make money mostly on stadium attendence, TV rights (the bulk of it) and merchandising (teams like Lazio and Fiorentina have limited market, namely Florence and outskirts of Rome. However, they compete with Juventus, Milan and Inter, who have a fan base nationally, therefore capable of larger revenue flows from mechandising). In addition, the team owners often add some of their own resources, like Moratti for Inter Milan. Cecchi Gori used to do so for Fiorentina and Cragnotti for Lazio.

Fiorentina and Lazio's problems are NOT sponsorship problems but rather rmanagement problems. Cecchi Gori had bad personal problems and lost a fortune from his production companies as a result, as a result, while Cragnotti made a fortune (he was already rich, of course) floating the team in the stock market, but gradually limited his involvement. How is this related to sponsorship issues? Lazio still gets more sponsor money than most teams in Serie A!!!


"that doesn't stop "every sponsor" from other countries from sponsoring teams and drivers"

As I mentioned, no other country has Ferrari. If you don't understand the unique relationship between Italian F1 fans and Ferrari (did you actually ever watch Monza?????), you should not have a conversation about sport in Italy. Clearly, you are missing the most blatant and unique aspect of Italians following sport. Any sponsor would get a better return by sponsoring Ferrari's chef than an F3 driver (it is an overstatement, I hope you understand it was made to make apoint..... ). It is that simple (in reality, though, Ferrari's chef has been on Italian TV........Ferrari is THAT big there).


"While I know Ferrero, FedEx and Hilfiger parted ways with Ferrari, to say they were "fired", doesn't seem like a good business practice."

I have no idea where you are trying to get here. Clearly Montezemolo would never say something like that. He thanked the old sponsors publicly and simply introduced "new strategic alliances". But the bottomline is that he fired Tommy, since Fila offered him a 3 year contract for a lot more money. And since Vodafone joined the ranks, FedEx and Tic Tac had to go. So, they got "fired", in the sense that Ferrari made the decision to replace them, they didn't leave Ferrari. The point was very simple, really. Ferrari had more sponsors interested in paying to have their logos on the cars than Ferrari can use. However, the same sponsors (Ferrero for Tic Tac) has absolutely no interest in sponsoring some anonimous kid in Italian F3. However, it wouldn't be surprising if they surface on a soccer team (although Ferrero is probably the wrong example, their international markets might cause them to chose another F1 team in the future. It is a possibility)


"Hmmm....given that Ferrari seems to exhibit a black hole effect in terms of sponsorship and attention, perhaps it would be better for F1, if Luca did pull Ferrari out of F1? The other teams would get sponsorship, and the Italian drivers would get some attention, no?"

For F1? I don't know. It could be the contrary. Ferrari can only use so many sponsors. So, there is still others available for other teams to attract. Obviously, lack of performance (Jordan in the last 2 years hardly deserved new or better sponsors......) and a global recession made it hard for some teams. But i don't see how one can accuse Ferrari for the usual ups and down of the economic cycle....... Would the other teams get the sponsorships if Luca pulled? Maybe, but I have a feeling interest in a F1 without Ferrari would actually be lower. Certainly interest in Italy would become almost non existent and countries like Japan and Malaysia, where almost every fan at the race is dressed in red, well, would suffer too unless Sato becomes a star (Yoong never will......). Italian drivers would still get no attention. If Ferrari leaves, Parmalat still wants Brazilian drivers, not a Roman. Your assumption is therefore incorrect.


"Yes, we know about the Italian nation-states. How you can conclude that Italy is any less "nationalistic" than any other country is beyond me. You do know that Great Britian is composed of the English, the Scots, the Welsh and some of the Irish? And, they "fought each other in the past", just like the Italian nation-states."

cough....cough....cough..... I actually lived in 6 countries and the UK, the US and Brazil are three of them. Therefore, while I cannot compare the level of nationalism between Italy and say Kenya, since I have never been there, I sure had enough time over three years to understand the level of British nationalism, over 10 years the level of US nationalism, and over 12 months the level of Brazilian nationalism (there actually three weeks are enough, just read Molive's posts......). If you visited Italy, you might have noticed how rare it is to see an Italian flag, unless it is a government building. We tend to have the same "pride" sentiments but about being Roman or Florentine or Milanese. Not Italian. Fans of AC Milan will cheer any foreign team playing against Inter Milan or Juventus or Roma. Would Americans cheer a foreign team against any American team? no. And simply walking around, the US and Britain are covered with their flags. Their is strong pride in being American or English and this pride is shown in a predominant fashion. I am quite sure our English and American friends here will have no problem confirming their high levels of nationalism.

Instead, I can confirm that in Italy we hardly give a damn. Romans don't care about anyone. Milan would love to get rid of the South (and there is a party in Italy called Lega which actually wants this to become a reality), nobody considers Sicilians as Italians and Sicilians themselves rarely consider themselves Italian. I find it ridiculous that you come here and give me, an Italian, a lecture about how we in Italy feel about our own nation. Get a grip.

Regarding the Scottish and the Irish......well, it is true, there is still an underlieing friction and maybe there will always be. Of course, the English prefer when the driver is English. They will never love DC or Eddie Irvine the way they loved Damon Hill. And Eddie's pre-Jaguar helmet and DC's St. Andrew's Cross are reminders of the fact that indeed they were from different coutnries. That said, I guess I will correct myself and use the term English instead of British, if it pleases you. Italians are NOT even remotely as nationalist as the English. Considering most F1 teams are English and several sponsors are/have been, there is clearly more interest in English drivers. Regarding the Brazilians, well, I am sure that Molive and Co. can confirm my impression. When I lived in Brazil, the TV would bombard you with messages such as "Siempre na frente Brazil" (sorry for the spelling, it was a while ago), which means always in front Brazil. You would never hear any propaganda of this kind in Italy, nobody cares. The only time people remeber they are Italian is when the Azzurri play, Ferrari is racing or foreign women are around. When people ask me where I am from, I never say Italy. I simply say Rome. A Roman has as much in common with a Sicilian as he has with a Parisian (actually, he has more in common with a Parisian!!!!!).


"Yes, the industrial heartland of Italy is centered around the Po Valley."

Tuscany is not part of the Po Valley. Large industrial groups are mostly in the Po valley. Medium companies are also very active in Tuscany (clothing, leather, shoes, wine, olive oil) and obviously Lazio (technology, etc).



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RedFever
For all of the above, Eddie needs to find sponsors elsewhere, since it is possible but not likely to find many in Italy. He should shop in the UK if he gets Eddie or Japan if he gets Sato and use Fisichella as the top quality driver bonus.............
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What, doesn't Irvine have any "Ferrari karma" any more? You did say Italians aren't as nationalistic, didn't you?"


Actually, you missed the point altogether. Ferrari's karma works miracles while you are racing "for" Ferrari. So, Italians, since they are not nationalistic, don't care whether the driver is Finnish, German or Japanese. That is why Barichello can find any kind of sponsors right now!!!! a Brazilian from Sao Paolo is more marketable than an Italian like Trulli or Fisichella. Get it??? If anyone remembers the infamous Imola Gp of 1983, will understand what I am saying. A French driver who lucked into a Ferrari because the horrible crashes of Villeneuve and Pironi in 82, is leading the race but quickly losing ground of the Paduan Riccardo Patrese. He is Italian and clearly a much better driver than Patrick Tambay. Yet, the Imola fans were getting more and more worried. Finally, Riccardo reaches and passes Tambay with few laps left. A few corners later, coming out of the Acque Minerali, his front tire is maybe one inch to out and steps on the heavy debris that accumulated all day causing many spins (Arnoux, Ceccotto, Alboreto, etc) in the same spot. The car just goes straight out into the tire wall. The entirely Italian crowd at the Acque Minerali explodes in delirium, cheering Patrick Tambay regaining the lead and eventually winning the GP. Patrese was Italian, Tambay French. The crowd didn't care. They only see Ferrari. Now, please, don't give me another lecture on how, as an Italian, I feel or see my country.

[RedFever]

BTW, althought they moved it to the PC section, I'd be interested in your comments on the last posts to the KFC thread........

[arthurive]

Well, I'll jump back in here and thank REDFEVER for is information about Italy.
It does explain a lot to me, regarding the plight that Italian drivers have.
You're correct to say that Fisichella certainly does have as much desire to be WC
as DC or Button. I never understood that Italy is so fragmented in it's approach.
So what you've described does not bode well for some of the other promising Italians
does it? Pantano, Liuzzi, Toccacelo, Montin, Piccolo, Bruni etc.
If any of these guys have exceptional talent, they'll also need more luck than most to
get a real chance at the big time.

[flyer72]

It all depends on if Jordan can attract a new title sponsor to replace the Deutsche Post-Danzas-DHL deal...


Oh - Diniz was sponsored by Parmalat because big daddy'o Diniz had some pull with the company. I'm not so sure if it was done by choice!

[BRG]

Originally posted by RedFever
And simply walking around, the US and Britain are covered with their flags. Their is strong pride in being American or English and this pride is shown in a predominant fashion. I am quite sure our English and American friends here will have no problem confirming their high levels of nationalism.

I will leave the US for its citizens to comment on, but as for Britain - you claim to have lived here, but I think you were actually in some other country with a similar name - maybe it was Brittany (did everyone speak French? - that might be a clue).

Britain is probably the one country in the whole world where you WON'T see the national flag everywhere. It is not flown routinely on government or public buildings (only on special occasions like our Queen's birthday), nor do ordinary citizens routinely fly it on their homes. People who do are usually regarded as nutters or extreme right-wingers (much the same really!). Do not judge us by sporting events, especially football. In our everyday life, flag-waving does not feature. That does not mean that we aren't patriotic because we are. But as for nationalistic, we don't come anywhere near the Italians. In my visits to Italy, I have seen the tricolore everywhere, either as a flag or as decorative stripes. And do you really believe that Italians would give a flying **** for Ferrari if it wasn't an Italian company?

[RedFever]

"Pantano, Liuzzi, Toccacelo, Montin, Piccolo, Bruni etc.
If any of these guys have exceptional talent, they'll also need more luck than most to
get a real chance at the big time."

Liuzzi in fact was in the German F3 this past season..........

"Britain is probably the one country in the whole world where you WON'T see the national flag everywhere."

Maybe, I beg to differ when it comes to London. I have to admit, my experience of England is mostly London (99% of the time) with excursions to the usual places worth visiting.

"It is not flown routinely on government or public buildings (only on special occasions like our Queen's birthday), nor do ordinary citizens routinely fly it on their homes."

It is flwon regularly in many buildings in London and no, I never stated people fly it in their backyards.

"Do not judge us by sporting events, especially football. In our everyday life, flag-waving does not feature. That does not mean that we aren't patriotic because we are."

Either you are confused about my post, or my imperfect Englished caused you too be confused, in which case I am sorry. I didn't mean anything negative nor offensive when I said nationalistic. In fact, if patriotic is what best describes the English attachement to their country, then the English are very patriotic. I meant it in a positive way,as people that have a strong sense of their nation. In which case, you are very wrong about Italians, because they don't have a very strong sense of their nation. We are in fact very divided, so much so that we had at least two parties that had as their major agenda seccession of parts of Italy.

"And do you really believe that Italians would give a flying **** for Ferrari if it wasn't an Italian company?"

No, they wouldn't, but as I explained, Ferrari has trascended local differences. Only Ferrari and the Azzurri in sport have that power. In every othe aspect of daily life, we are no united. By simply visiting Italy for vacation without speaking the language, you can't understand that.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by BRG

Britain is probably the one country in the whole world where you WON'T see the national flag everywhere. It is not flown routinely on government or public buildings (only on special occasions like our Queen's birthday), nor do ordinary citizens routinely fly it on their homes. People who do are usually regarded as nutters

Finland is the same, and I think many other countries too, so I wouldn't say that Britain is "probably the one country in the whole world where you won't see the national flag everywhere." There are many.

[sensible]

Originally posted by BRG
I will leave the US for its citizens to comment on, but as for Britain - you claim to have lived here, but I think you were actually in some other country with a similar name - maybe it was Brittany (did everyone speak French? - that might be a clue).

Britain is probably the one country in the whole world where you WON'T see the national flag everywhere. It is not flown routinely on government or public buildings (only on special occasions like our Queen's birthday), nor do ordinary citizens routinely fly it on their homes. People who do are usually regarded as nutters or extreme right-wingers (much the same really!). Do not judge us by sporting events, especially football. In our everyday life, flag-waving does not feature. That does not mean that we aren't patriotic because we are. But as for nationalistic, we don't come anywhere near the Italians. In my visits to Italy, I have seen the tricolore everywhere, either as a flag or as decorative stripes. And do you really believe that Italians would give a flying **** for Ferrari if it wasn't an Italian company?

I guess it depends what part of Britain. I can look out of my window right now and see at least a couple of flags. My street still has a fair few st georges crosses left over from the world cup or jubilee. I think Britain is fairly nationalistic even if the nationalism is focussed as scottish english or welsh rather than britain specifically. I think ten or so years ago what you say might have been true, but it certainly isnt now.

(Also isnt it ironic that you're saying we arent nationalistic (or patriotic or whatev er you want to call it)given your moniker ;) )

[BRG]

sensible

I am in the middle of London - I can see Buckingham Palace (the Queen's official residence) from my window. It is not displaying a national flag. Nor are any of the public buildings around about my office. Maybe you live in a more fervent part of the country! Certainly where I live, in sunny Elmbridge in Surrey, you don't see a Union flag except on high days or holidays.

My "BRG" moniker was just chosen as a historic reference to the great days of racing's past when I first started posting on the Nostalgia Forum. It was/is not a nationalist statement, although many seem to take it as such. Maybe they don't remember those days as well as I do!

From RedFever's comment, it looks as if he was doing the tourist trail - there always tends to be more flags about (in any country) on tourist sites.

[sensible]

Yeah but she has to be there for the flag to be up at buck house - or something like that I thought.

As it happens, I too am in London - near St Pauls and live in surrey (epsom). Go figure.

as to your moniker, I guessed why you chose it, I was just kidding around

[RedFever]

BRG, let's face it, you got all bent out of shape because you thought I was offending the English for being somehow obsessed nationalist. I instead intended it in a positive and constructive way, as people who are united by a sense of belonging to the same country. It's that simple.

I didn't intend to bring England into this at all. In fact, I was simply explaining that the vision someone here had of Italy was far removed from reality. I found it peculiar that someone from abroad would tell me how Italians feel.

Regarding my English experience.....I lived in London between 1979 and 1982. So things might have changed a lot since - am I not talking real estate, of course. Regarding the Queen's residence, well, the flag is up where she is. She might be elsewhere at this time.

I used to live in Richmond for quite sometime, and the Union Jack flew happily in many places, including schools, some churches, etc. But more that actual flags, the use of the Union Jack was pretty pervasive. Even punks would occasionally have it sawn on their leather jackets or torn jeans. True, when I moved to Holland Park, there weren't much of it, being a very upper class area. In any case, while not as common as in the US, where both flag and eagle are quite common symbols, I found the English to be more patriotic of Italians. Maybe things have changed since I lived there. After all, I used to go to Carnabie Street to buy original Beatles records, any Clash bootleg I could find, or absurdly tight leather pants, and the entire street was a living and breathing Union Jack (with a lot of leather, spikes, fishnet stockings, makeup and bold heads too....). Now it looks like the perfect location for The Gap. So, maybe that why you feel the english don't care as much (althoug Sensible seems to be in a more middle position).

Anyhow, hope I didn't offend you, that was not the idea behind my post.

Cheers

[KenC]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
I am intrigued by your arrogance. I am glad you know Italy so well, however what you write is incorrect. After all, I was born, raised and lived there for 29 years. So, I really think I know a little more about the subject than you. Regarding my understanding of business, well, I have to laugh at your puerile remark on whether I do understand it or not. [/QUOTE]
Sure, intriguing arrogance...I am so flattered

While it is hoped that a native Italian would know his own country, it is not a given.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Lazio has problems attracting sponsors?????????????? Laughable statement. You have no idea of what you are talking about.

List of Lazio's current sponsors:
Official Sponsor:
Siemens Mobile

Technical Sponsor:
Puma

6 Institutional Sponsors:

Plus there are 9 Official Providers, including DelMonte, Cirio and Grana Padana.
Plus 12 Official Partners, including ENEL, Gatorade, and Iveco.
I would hardly call this difficulty in "attracting sponsors"...................... [/QUOTE]
You really misunderstand things, don't you. It's not HOW MANY sponsors. The bottom line is that impressive list of sponsors is not giving Lazio enough sponsorship to pay its bills! Read it again, and then read it again. How SIMPLE do I have to say it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Wow, I didn't realize your understanding of how an Italian soccer team earns revenues was so limited. Why do you lecture people about it though, when you clearly are unfamiliar with the subject???? Attracting sponsorships and overspending are entirely not related. Lazio still attracts sponsorships that would be more than enough to launch the careers of many Italian drivers (in fact Italians follow soccer more closely than F1 and DEFINETELY more than F3, so sponsorships are easier to find for soccer teams). [/QUOTE]
This is totally a non-sequitur. I did not say soccer and F1 are related, I said twice that Lazio and Fiorentina's bankruptcies are possibly poisoning the sponsorship atmosphere amongst Italian companies.

If Lazio can easily attract sponsorship, then the simple answer to their financial woes is to attract some MORE! The very fact that they can't attract enough to cover all their bills shows that sponsorship is NOT that easy to attract, or they'd have done it.

And yes, I know that Italians follow soccer more than F1, one only needs to look at La Gazzetta dello Sport to see that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Really? and you discovered this all by yourself???? You got some business acumen!!!! the sponsorship of a top soccer team is hardly enough to pay the salary of the team's top 7-8 players for a year!!!! So, your point is ludicrous. Every soccer team in Seria A spends more money, a LOT more money than they can raise with sponsorships. The fact that Lazio has monetary problems for overspending in salaries, etc, has absolutely zero to do with the sponsorship situation. Lazio attracts better sponsorship deals than most teams in Italy (just behind Inter, Milan, Juventus and Roma), being one of the two teams of the capital. Lazio has some of the very best sponsorship deals in Serie A, in factm many times over what Chievo Verona or Udinese get, but those teams are not bankrupt........... [/QUOTE]
You have lost it. I never said sponsorship covers a team's total expenses. That would ignore tv revs, t-shirt sales, tickets, etc. I assumed you knew enough to know that revenues from those sources tend to be predictable, thus the area where a team can increase revs is thru sponsorship. That is, if a team has financial problems, it isn't going to solve this thru selling more tickets, when ticket sales are already high. The only area to significantly raise revenues to solve financial difficulties is thru sponsorship. If you have other ideas, then Lazio and Fiorentina would love to hear from you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
I would have expected that a financial wiz of your caliber would understand that Pirelli's sponsorship at Inter Milan, for example, was not even enough to buy either Vieri or Crespo, let alone the other 30 players of the team, coach, athletic and medical stuff, etc. These teams make money mostly on stadium attendence, TV rights (the bulk of it) and merchandising (teams like Lazio and Fiorentina have limited market, namely Florence and outskirts of Rome. However, they compete with Juventus, Milan and Inter, who have a fan base nationally, therefore capable of larger revenue flows from mechandising). In addition, the team owners often add some of their own resources, like Moratti for Inter Milan. Cecchi Gori used to do so for Fiorentina and Cragnotti for Lazio.[/QUOTE]
Where did I say anything about the ridiculous transfer fees of a Vieri or Crespo? You need to read my answer above.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Fiorentina and Lazio's problems are NOT sponsorship problems but rather rmanagement problems. Cecchi Gori had bad personal problems and lost a fortune from his production companies as a result, as a result, while Cragnotti made a fortune (he was already rich, of course) floating the team in the stock market, but gradually limited his involvement. How is this related to sponsorship issues? Lazio still gets more sponsor money than most teams in Serie A!!![/QUOTE]
Where do teams get money from, where does it go, and if ticket sales are high, tv revenue is good, t-shirt sales are good, then the only other source of money they can tap to keep the team afloat has got to be increased sponsorship, no?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
As I mentioned, no other country has Ferrari. If you don't understand the unique relationship between Italian F1 fans and Ferrari (did you actually ever watch Monza?????), you should not have a conversation about sport in Italy. Clearly, you are missing the most blatant and unique aspect of Italians following sport. Any sponsor would get a better return by sponsoring Ferrari's chef than an F3 driver (it is an overstatement, I hope you understand it was made to make apoint..... ). It is that simple (in reality, though, Ferrari's chef has been on Italian TV........Ferrari is THAT big there).[/QUOTE]
Gee, you mean the tifosi? Nope, never heard of em.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
I have no idea where you are trying to get here. Clearly Montezemolo would never say something like that. He thanked the old sponsors publicly and simply introduced "new strategic alliances". But the bottomline is that he fired Tommy, since Fila offered him a 3 year contract for a lot more money. And since Vodafone joined the ranks, FedEx and Tic Tac had to go. So, they got "fired", in the sense that Ferrari made the decision to replace them, they didn't leave Ferrari. The point was very simple, really. Ferrari had more sponsors interested in paying to have their logos on the cars than Ferrari can use. However, the same sponsors (Ferrero for Tic Tac) has absolutely no interest in sponsoring some anonimous kid in Italian F3. However, it wouldn't be surprising if they surface on a soccer team (although Ferrero is probably the wrong example, their international markets might cause them to chose another F1 team in the future. It is a possibility)[/QUOTE]
Well, if Luca "thanked" the old sponsors, then why did you say fired? Firing a sponsor would not be a good business practice. Clearly, something was lost in translation.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
For F1? I don't know. It could be the contrary. Ferrari can only use so many sponsors. So, there is still others available for other teams to attract. Obviously, lack of performance (Jordan in the last 2 years hardly deserved new or better sponsors......) and a global recession made it hard for some teams. But i don't see how one can accuse Ferrari for the usual ups and down of the economic cycle....... Would the other teams get the sponsorships if Luca pulled? Maybe, but I have a feeling interest in a F1 without Ferrari would actually be lower. Certainly interest in Italy would become almost non existent and countries like Japan and Malaysia, where almost every fan at the race is dressed in red, well, would suffer too unless Sato becomes a star (Yoong never will......). Italian drivers would still get no attention. If Ferrari leaves, Parmalat still wants Brazilian drivers, not a Roman. Your assumption is therefore incorrect. [/QUOTE]
Seeing as you have said, "maybe", how can you conclude I am "incorrect". Is that "arrogance"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
cough....cough....cough..... I actually lived in 6 countries and the UK, the US and Brazil are three of them. Therefore, while I cannot compare the level of nationalism between Italy and say Kenya, since I have never been there, I sure had enough time over three years to understand the level of British nationalism, over 10 years the level of US nationalism, and over 12 months the level of Brazilian nationalism (there actually three weeks are enough, just read Molive's posts......). If you visited Italy, you might have noticed how rare it is to see an Italian flag, unless it is a government building. We tend to have the same "pride" sentiments but about being Roman or Florentine or Milanese. Not Italian. Fans of AC Milan will cheer any foreign team playing against Inter Milan or Juventus or Roma. Would Americans cheer a foreign team against any American team? no. And simply walking around, the US and Britain are covered with their flags. Their is strong pride in being American or English and this pride is shown in a predominant fashion. I am quite sure our English and American friends here will have no problem confirming their high levels of nationalism. [/QUOTE]
Oh, right you are the arbiter of all things related to the UK, the US, Brazil and Italy just because you've lived there. I'm sure we can find some people from the UK, the US, Brazil and Italy who would be glad to disagree with all of your assessments. This sort of I lived there, makes me an expert, is a silly argument.

I have worked in Italy with many of the companies you have cited, and yet, I don't ever state that gives me an expert's opinion, like you do. What "arrogance"!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Instead, I can confirm that in Italy we hardly give a damn. Romans don't care about anyone. Milan would love to get rid of the South (and there is a party in Italy called Lega which actually wants this to become a reality), nobody considers Sicilians as Italians and Sicilians themselves rarely consider themselves Italian. I find it ridiculous that you come here and give me, an Italian, a lecture about how we in Italy feel about our own nation. Get a grip. [/QUOTE]
This is true in virtually every country. I never gave you any "lecture about how we in Italy feel about our own nation". Where's your QUOTABLE EVIDENCE? You are making false arguments.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Regarding the Scottish and the Irish......well, it is true, there is still an underlieing friction and maybe there will always be. Of course, the English prefer when the driver is English. They will never love DC or Eddie Irvine the way they loved Damon Hill. And Eddie's pre-Jaguar helmet and DC's St. Andrew's Cross are reminders of the fact that indeed they were from different coutnries. That said, I guess I will correct myself and use the term English instead of British, if it pleases you. Italians are NOT even remotely as nationalist as the English. Considering most F1 teams are English and several sponsors are/have been, there is clearly more interest in English drivers. Regarding the Brazilians, well, I am sure that Molive and Co. can confirm my impression. When I lived in Brazil, the TV would bombard you with messages such as "Siempre na frente Brazil" (sorry for the spelling, it was a while ago), which means always in front Brazil. You would never hear any propaganda of this kind in Italy, nobody cares. The only time people remeber they are Italian is when the Azzurri play, Ferrari is racing or foreign women are around. When people ask me where I am from, I never say Italy. I simply say Rome. A Roman has as much in common with a Sicilian as he has with a Parisian (actually, he has more in common with a Parisian!!!!!). [/QUOTE]
Yes, and that's why B&H is interested in an Irish driver. It's because they're so "nationalist"! You argue since I'm not Italian I can't have any knowledge of the Italian social situation, and yet, you're not British, and you are the expert on Britain's social situation. La de da.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Tuscany is not part of the Po Valley. Large industrial groups are mostly in the Po valley. Medium companies are also very active in Tuscany (clothing, leather, shoes, wine, olive oil) and obviously Lazio (technology, etc). [/QUOTE]
Where did I say Tuscany is in the Po Valley.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedFever
Actually, you missed the point altogether. Ferrari's karma works miracles while you are racing "for" Ferrari. So, Italians, since they are not nationalistic, don't care whether the driver is Finnish, German or Japanese. That is why Barichello can find any kind of sponsors right now!!!! a Brazilian from Sao Paolo is more marketable than an Italian like Trulli or Fisichella. Get it??? If anyone remembers the infamous Imola Gp of 1983, will understand what I am saying. A French driver who lucked into a Ferrari because the horrible crashes of Villeneuve and Pironi in 82, is leading the race but quickly losing ground of the Paduan Riccardo Patrese. He is Italian and clearly a much better driver than Patrick Tambay. Yet, the Imola fans were getting more and more worried. Finally, Riccardo reaches and passes Tambay with few laps left. A few corners later, coming out of the Acque Minerali, his front tire is maybe one inch to out and steps on the heavy debris that accumulated all day causing many spins (Arnoux, Ceccotto, Alboreto, etc) in the same spot. The car just goes straight out into the tire wall. The entirely Italian crowd at the Acque Minerali explodes in delirium, cheering Patrick Tambay regaining the lead and eventually winning the GP. Patrese was Italian, Tambay French. The crowd didn't care. They only see Ferrari. Now, please, don't give me another lecture on how, as an Italian, I feel or see my country. [/QUOTE]
So, Ferrari "karma" only works in close proximity to Ferrari. Not very karmic if you ask me.

Don't bother to answer, as I don't really plan to read any more of your long-winded nonsense, seeing as it's rather pointless, due to the fact you don't understand what you read. And, what's the point, only people who have lived in Italy can be experts on Italy, as far as you're concerned.

[RedFever]

"The bottom line is that impressive list of sponsors is not giving Lazio enough sponsorship to pay its bills! Read it again, and then read it again. How SIMPLE do I have to say it?"

Lazio has the 5yh highest sponsorship deals out of 18 teams. That proves sponsorship is unrelated with a team's ability to avoid bankruptcy. Hence you claim about my business understanding is another example of stupidity.


"then the simple answer to their financial woes is to attract some MORE! The very fact that they can't attract enough to cover all their bills shows that sponsorship is NOT that easy to attract, or they'd have done it."

AGain, you don't undertand how a soccer team operates in Serie A. Sponsorships are not meant to cover a teams total costs. Even in the event Lazio would have the same deal of Juventus, it would have still faced the same financial troubles. I find it hilarious that a conaultant (!) doesn't understand that cost cutting is often more important then revenue increase. Lazio's situation didn't depend on sponsorships. That's all there is to it, no matter how you slice it. Sorry.


"thus the area where a team can increase revs is thru sponsorship."

Again, you don't understand Serie A. No, Lazio cannot increase its sponsorship deals, not by a significant amount. First, last year they were not competiting at the top. Hence, why should sponsors be willing to pay more???? second, Lazio is a regional team, with less appeal then the Big 3. Third, Lazio's problems were Lazio's problems. Fourth, Fiorentina's problems were Fiorentina's problems (Cecchi Gori's, actually). They had nothing to do with the other teams and have NOT poluted the sponsorship environment, as you suggest with zero evidence. Besides, your point is in any case totally irrelevant. Lazio and Fiorentina had problems NOW. Italian sponsors stopped supporting young drivers actively already a decade ago. Yo umust have failed to notice that already Jarno raced in German F3.......the last serious F3 seasons were the ones when Fisichella and Villeneuve raced. Italian F3 today is in disarrey, well BEFORE Lazio's problems. Get it??????

"Where did I say anything about the ridiculous transfer fees of a Vieri or Crespo? You need to read my answer above."

It was an example of show how sponsorship money is indeed peanuts in a team's budget......are you expecting I only talk about what you you want me to??? you already seem to know how I should feel and behave as an Italian, can at least say what I want....


"Gee, you mean the tifosi? Nope, never heard of em. "

Apart your pathetic attempts at sarcasm......you might have noticed them, but obviously not understood them. Try again.

"Well, if Luca "thanked" the old sponsors, then why did you say fired? Firing a sponsor would not be a good business practice. Clearly, something was lost in translation."

You just proved you are entirely ignorant about Italy and Italians. Unlike other countries (like the US), where words are picked one by one for their literal meaning, Italians speak a lot by analogies, comparisons, inferences, coloring their conversations. If you knew 10% of what you claim you know about Italians, you would have picked on it. Only an idiot would actually think that Montezemolo called the CEO of FedEx and fired them as sponsors. It was obvious to a 6th grader that by fired it was meant that Ferrari had so many better offers that was in the priviledged position to pick and chose its commercial partners and decline to renew older contracts with previos sponsors. How tha? simple enough for you to follow??????

"Seeing as you have said, "maybe", how can you conclude I am "incorrect". Is that "arrogance"?"

No, just your inability to get over your hangups. I said maybe other teams will get more sponsors. I said no, Italian drivers will NOT get more. So, your theory regarding Italian drivers is incorrect. Get it? your theory regarding other F1 teams is ...as I said..maybe right, maybe wrong, I am not in a position to judge. Unlike you, I don't expect to have answers for thing I know nothing about. Arrogance? I am an amateur compared to you, come on now.......

"How you can conclude that Italy is any less "nationalistic" than any other country is beyond me."
I live in the US and quite frankly everyone here is pretty proud and patriotic. In italy people aren't. It is that simple at times. Simple observation.

"You argue since I'm not Italian I can't have any knowledge of the Italian social situation,"

Well, the other day you argued I couldn't have any particular knowledge of American society unless I had facts to support it. Has this changed because you are the one making statements? please, inform me if there are special rules that apply to your caae, because I wasn't aware of it....

"Where did I say Tuscany is in the Po Valley"

Actually I was talking about Tuscany. You replied industry was in the Po Basin. I simply clarified not only there. Since you introduced the Po Basin while I was discussing a generic north but also Emilia, Tuscany and Lazio, you should ask that question yourself. I don't know what goes on in your brain, you should have a better clue.

"So, Ferrari "karma" only works in close proximity to Ferrari. Not very karmic if you ask me."
I forgot you are incapacitated when it comes to perform elementary inferences (you know..if a is equal to b and b is equal to c, then one can assume c is equal to a. I understand that in your case one has to keep repeating a is b is c is c, even if they are all equal, still a is a, b is b, c is c. Apology, I was under the impression I was talking to a normal person).

It is truly an elementary concept. National origin of driver, while at Ferrari, doesn't matter to the fans. I doubt I can make it any easier even for you to understand. Irvine, unfortunately, is NOT a Ferrari driver..........

"Don't bother to answer, as I don't really plan to read any more of your long-winded nonsense, seeing as it's rather pointless, due to the fact you don't understand what you read."

You are the example of short replies, I see............. Actually, I never had problems understanding my readings. You on theother side seem incapacitaed to infer elementary concepts unless they are explained in basic words. If one uses the word fired to imply a situation, you get bent out of shape, your brain titlts and are unable to reboot for a week.

"And, what's the point, only people who have lived in Italy can be experts on Italy, as far as you're concerned."

No, not true necessarily. But you sure have a long way to go to even know basic facts about it. That is for sure!!!!!

Anyhow, I figured you wouldn't reply anymore. Just like in the food thread, once evidence against you was brought forward, you suddenly desappeared. Maybe you shoud focus less n speling and more on facts.......

[RedFever]

"The bottom line is that impressive list of sponsors is not giving Lazio enough sponsorship to pay its bills! Read it again, and then read it again. How SIMPLE do I have to say it?"

Lazio has the 5th highest sponsorship deals out of 18 teams. That proves sponsorship is unrelated with a team's ability to avoid bankruptcy. As anyone ever explained to you that the bottomlineis affected BOTH by revenues AND expenses???? you are one-sided as usual. Lazio's revenues are fine (among the best in Italian soccer), its their costs that are out of control. Hence, the problem is with management, NOT with sponsors. I am sorry your bubble about the sponsorship environment in Italy is just that, a bubble of your imagination.

"then the simple answer to their financial woes is to attract some MORE! The very fact that they can't attract enough to cover all their bills shows that sponsorship is NOT that easy to attract, or they'd have done it."

Again, you don't undertand how a soccer team operates in Serie A. Sponsorships are not meant to cover a teams total costs. Even in the event Lazio would have the same deal of Juventus, it would have still faced the same financial troubles. I find it hilarious that a consultant (!) doesn't understand that cost cutting is often more important then revenue increase. Lazio's situation didn't depend on sponsorships. That's all there is to it, no matter how you slice it. Sorry.


"thus the area where a team can increase revs is thru sponsorship."

Again, you don't understand Serie A. No, Lazio cannot increase its sponsorship deals, not by a significant amount. First, last year they were not competiting at the top. Hence, why should sponsors be willing to pay more???? second, Lazio is a regional team, with less appeal then the Big 3. Third, Lazio's problems were Lazio's internal problems. Fourth, Fiorentina's problems were Fiorentina's internal problems (Cecchi Gori's, actually). They had nothing to do with the other teams and have NOT poluted the sponsorship environment, as you suggest with zero evidence.

Besides, your point is in any case totally irrelevant. Lazio and Fiorentina had problems this year. Italian sponsors stopped supporting young drivers actively already a decade ago. You must have failed to notice that already Jarno Trulli raced in German F3. Do you know how many years ago that was????? how is that related to Lazio in 2002. Please, explain, freaking genius!!!! The last serious F3 seasons were the ones when Fisichella and Villeneuve raced. Italian F3 today is in disarrey, well BEFORE Lazio's problems. Get it??????

"Where did I say anything about the ridiculous transfer fees of a Vieri or Crespo? You need to read my answer above."

It was an example to show how sponsorship money is indeed peanuts in a team's budget......are you expecting that I only talk about what you you want me to??? you already seem to know how I should feel and behave as an Italian, can at least say what I want....


"Gee, you mean the tifosi? Nope, never heard of em. "

Apart from your pathetic attempts at sarcasm......you might have noticed the fans, but obviously not understood them. Try again.


"Well, if Luca "thanked" the old sponsors, then why did you say fired? Firing a sponsor would not be a good business practice. Clearly, something was lost in translation."

You just proved you are entirely ignorant about Italy and Italians. Unlike other countries (like the US), where words are picked one by one for their literal meaning, Italians speak a lot by analogies, comparisons, inferences, coloring their conversations. If you knew 10% of what you claim you know about Italians, you would have picked on it. Only an idiot would actually think that Montezemolo called the CEO of FedEx and fired them as sponsors. It was obvious to a 6th grader that by fired it was meant that Ferrari had so many better offers that was in the priviledged position to pick and chose its commercial partners and decline to renew older contracts with previous sponsors. How is that? simple enough for you to follow??????

"Seeing as you have said, "maybe", how can you conclude I am "incorrect". Is that "arrogance"?"

No, just your inability to get over your hangups and understand there were two separate points. I said maybe other teams will get more sponsors (point 1). I said no, Italian drivers will NOT get more support (point 2). So, your theory regarding Italian drivers is incorrect. Get it? your theory regarding other F1 teams is ......maybe right, maybe wrong (my posts with other people before of your intrusion were about Italian drivers, not other teams..... sorry if the conversation doesn't always go where you want to......), I am not in a position to judge. Unlike you, I don't expect to have answers for something I don't have enough information to judge. Arrogance? I am an amateur compared to you, come on now.......


"How you can conclude that Italy is any less "nationalistic" than any other country is beyond me."
I live in the US and quite frankly everyone here is pretty proud and patriotic. In italy people aren't. It is that simple at times. Simple observation. Now if one country (the US) is more nationalistic than Italy, I can safely conclude Italy is "less "nationalistic" than any other country". One country was all I needed to prove your point wrong. And Americans who are familiar with both countries will have no problem confirming this. In fact, they make no apologies for feeling patriotic.


"You argue since I'm not Italian I can't have any knowledge of the Italian social situation,"

Well, the other day you argued I couldn't have any particular knowledge of American society unless I had hard facts to support it. Has this changed because you are the one making statements? please, inform me if there are special rules that apply to your caae, because I wasn't aware of it.... SInce you only speculated but had no facts, I simply find your claims ludicrous. As an Italian I am in a position to say that unless yo ucan bring hard evidence that my statements about Italy are wrong. I am waiting.......


"Where did I say Tuscany is in the Po Valley"

Actually I was talking about Tuscany. You replied industry was in the Po Basin. I simply clarified not only there. Since you introduced the Po Basin while I was discussing a "generic" north but also Tuscany and Lazio, you should ask that question to yourself. I don't know what goes on in your brain, you should have a better clue. At least, I hope so.


"So, Ferrari "karma" only works in close proximity to Ferrari. Not very karmic if you ask me."
I forgot you are incapacitated when it comes to perform elementary inferences (you know..if a is equal to b and b is equal to c, then one can assume c is equal to a. I understand that in your case one has to keep repeating if a is a, b is b, c is c, even if they are all equal, still a is a, b is b, c is c. Apology, I was under the impression I was talking to a normal person).

I don't recall specifying the amount of karma or its intensity. Did I? in any case, it is truly an elementary concept and I will now attempt to explain it for those who like you are quite slow. National origin of a driver, while at Ferrari, doesn't matter to the fans. I doubt I can make it any easier even for you to understand. Irvine, unfortunately, is NOT a Ferrari driver..........Get it???


"Don't bother to answer, as I don't really plan to read any more of your long-winded nonsense, seeing as it's rather pointless, due to the fact you don't understand what you read."

You are the example of short replies, I see.............

Actually, I never had problems understanding readings. You on the other side seem incapacitated to infer elementary concepts unless they are explained in basic words. If one uses the word fired to dramatize a favorable situation, you get bent out of shape, your brain tilts and are unable to reboot for a week. I cannot be responsible for your brain's rigidity. I assumed (incorrectly) that you were capable of basic lateral thinking.

Also, I find it a little idiotic that you are willing to spend 15 minutes to reply, as you have just done, to someone you claim is writing long-winded nonsense". What does this say about you??? I write nonsense and you get all bent out of shape to answer it? wow, you are even less intelligent than I initially assumed!!!! Actually, you have been looking for my posts to continue to pick on me after the other day you were left with your wiener in your hand..... (by the way, did you read Harvard just trashed your revered food pyramid because built on shaky scientific grounds???? ).


"And, what's the point, only people who have lived in Italy can be experts on Italy, as far as you're concerned."

No, not true necessarily, I never said ONLY people who lived in Italy. But you sure have a long way to go to even know basic facts about Italy. That is for sure!!!!! therefore, anyone simply born and raised in Italy would know more than you about it.

Anyhow, I figured you wouldn't reply anymore. Just like in the food thread, were once evidence against you was brought forward, you suddenly desappeared. You remind me a lot of those kids I met in my childhood, who unless everyone told them they were always right, would get all upset and leave. I see some people never outgrow that habit.............

(besides, you have read this last post too, regardless of your claim...it's human nature... )

[RedFever]

From AtalasF1 News.......

"The TAG McLaren Group have signed a partnership agreement with Faram to become the Furniture Solutions Partner to their Technology Center, the team announced today."


It looks like Lazio and Fiorentina's problems have not soured (!!!) at all the sponsorship environment in Italy (Duh!!!!). Here we find an Italian company more than willing to fork money to be associated with one of F1's top team. As I tried to explain all along, Italian companies simply have little interest in sponsoring local F3 drivers because they need a more international exposure. Too bad this is such a hard concept to understand for wannabe know-it-all consultants.........

[LuckyStrike1]

EJ could just do to Fisi what he did to Frentzen. Ignore paying him, sacking him and then try and reach a settlement out of court where they both go halfways .... I can see it happens.

[RedFever]

LS1, I don't doubt EJ can't do that, but honestly, if he fires Fisichella what does he have left to sell to sponsors???? the only top level element in that team right now is Giancarlo and maybe, I stress maybe, the new engines. It would be kinda of suicidal to fire Fisi and have a rent a drive pilot replace him.

[Ghostrider]

Fisi saved Jordan last year, just as he saved Benetton in 98,99, 2000. Jordan will go under if they loose Fisi, however maybe they will do that either way.

The question is, can Fisi's career afford Jordan?? Maybe not.

[RedFever]

"The question is, can Fisi's career afford Jordan?? Maybe not."

you are right, one more season with mediocre results might end his career, regardless of his talent

[KenC]

Originally posted by RedFever
From AtalasF1 News.......

"The TAG McLaren Group have signed a partnership agreement with Faram to become the Furniture Solutions Partner to their Technology Center, the team announced today."

It looks like Lazio and Fiorentina's problems have not soured (!!!) at all the sponsorship environment in Italy (Duh!!!!). Here we find an Italian company more than willing to fork money to be associated with one of F1's top team. As I tried to explain all along, Italian companies simply have little interest in sponsoring local F3 drivers because they need a more international exposure. Too bad this is such a hard concept to understand for wannabe know-it-all consultants.........

Geez, some people can't get over it. If you read the newsblurb, you'd see Faram is partnering Paragon, McLaren's Tech Center, not the actual team. In other words, it's a TINY deal, probably on the financial scale of sponsoring a "local F3 driver". Remember 7-Up sponsoring Williams last off-season? Some people were getting excited that the car's livery was going to be sporting green and red in addition to the blue and white, but of course, the fine print was the sponsorship was so small as to be only visible on the team transporters.

Your petty insults are laughable because they're so juvenile. Just get over it. Rather than insult me at every opportunity, you ought to be pleased that a foreigner would be so interested in Italy. I've spent lots of time in Italy both working and for pleasure, and I'm glad to say that my time there wasn't spoiled by Italians with your arrogant attitude.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Is there even an Italian Formula 3 series anymore? I know there's Italian Formula Renault with very strong grids, but I have no idea who they are running supports for.

[RedFever]

"In other words, it's a TINY deal, probably on the financial scale of sponsoring a "local F3 driver".

Exactly my point, dude. They still chose to be a TINY sponsor for the headquarter of a top F1 team as compared to being the MAIN sponsor for a young emerging Italian driver. A foreign association is preferred to sponsoring a local driver makes it opens foreign markets. I thought I expressed that point about 5 times. You seem to be the only one with difficulties to understand it. Ah, no wait, I forgot, you know all things Italian, so it can't be true.the people at FARAM must have lost their mind....they should have listened to a super-know-it-all-consultant like you instead...

"you ought to be pleased that a foreigner would be so interested in Italy. I've spent lots of time in Italy both working and for pleasure, and I'm glad to say that my time there wasn't spoiled by Italians with your arrogant attitude."

Actually, I find this laughable. I just showed a practical example of my argument, as opposed to your unfounded theories of soured sponsorship environment in Italy ( ). You simply won't accept that I know the Italian economic reality (my university thesis was mostly based on Italian mid-size companies conquering foreign markets) better than you, who occasionally visited my country. I am the arrogant one?

"Don't bother to answer, as I don't really plan to read any more of your long-winded nonsense"

Yeah......right......

[KenC]

Originally posted by RedFever
"In other words, it's a TINY deal, probably on the financial scale of sponsoring a "local F3 driver".

Exactly my point, dude. They still chose to be a TINY sponsor for the headquarter of a top F1 team as compared to being the MAIN sponsor for a young emerging Italian driver. A foreign association is preferred to sponsoring a local driver makes it opens foreign markets. I thought I expressed that point about 5 times. You seem to be the only one with difficulties to understand it. Ah, no wait, I forgot, you know all things Italian, so it can't be true.the people at FARAM must have lost their mind....they should have listened to a super-know-it-all-consultant like you instead...

"you ought to be pleased that a foreigner would be so interested in Italy. I've spent lots of time in Italy both working and for pleasure, and I'm glad to say that my time there wasn't spoiled by Italians with your arrogant attitude."

Actually, I find this laughable. I just showed a practical example of my argument, as opposed to your unfounded theories of soured sponsorship environment in Italy ( ). You simply won't accept that I know the Italian economic reality (my university thesis was mostly based on Italian mid-size companies conquering foreign markets) better than you, who occasionally visited my country. I am the arrogant one?

"Don't bother to answer, as I don't really plan to read any more of your long-winded nonsense"

Yeah......right......

If you go back to my original post, you'll see I didn't say that the sponsorship environment was "soured", I was asking if it had been "soured" due to the well-publicized financial problems at Lazio and Fiorentina. I'm not at all surprised that you have misinterpreted, repeatedly, what I have said.

I never said I was an expert on Italy, just that you should be pleased that someone is so interested in Italy that you shouldn't be insulting them. I haven't just "occasionally visited" your former country, but have worked there and consulted with many Italian companies, including many involved in F1, as well as many "mid-size companies". I have done actual work with "Italian mid-size companies", and not just written a "university thesis". Nevertheless, the "arrogant one", is the one who says he knows things "better than you". That was you wasn't it?

As for not reading your nonsense, that was so long ago, I forgot I wrote that!

[RedFever]

actually, after the thesis I worked full time (not on occasional consulting trips) for 8 years. That in addition to having studied 16 semesters of Italian history, 8 of Italian social history, 8 of Italian economics.............having served in the military for 12 months, plus simply having lived there 29 years..... so, yes, I have no problem stating I know the Italian situation better than you. I studied, worked and lived with Italian historians, economists, politicians, businessmen and....people... 24 hours a day for years. Germany? I know superficially. France? so and so. Portugal? nothing at all. I would be arrogant if I thought I knew everything. I am simply saying I know one thing better than you and that was apparent from the wrong assumptions you made about my country. That simple, really. You might know 1000 things better than me. Italian economics ain't one of them. That's all.


"I didn't say that the sponsorship environment was "soured",

Right, you said:
"I meant to imply the bankruptcies of two of the largest soccer teams in Serie A, are poisoning the atmosphere for sports sponsorship in Italy."

Sorry, I recalled "sour" instead you used "poisoning". That's a hell of a difference....


"just that you should be pleased that someone is so interested in Italy that you shouldn't be insulting them"

The fact you are interested in Italy shouldn't affect me in pointing out that you wrongly imply and infer many things about Italy. You implied that Fiorentina/Lazio could have had a role in young Italian drivers not getting money. I simply wanted to point out that this phenomenon has been going on for 10 years now (Trulli had to go to Germany), well before your implied (because based on suppositions, not facts) "poisoning".

I corrected you, you went balistic. If you worked for so many Italian companies, you should have realized by now that most mid-sized Italian companies look at foreign markets for their growth. Italian young drivers aren't going to open those markets. Elementary marketing concept, really. By the way, Liuzzi, the guy who defeated Schumacher on karts last year...guess what...is racing F3 in....Germany. And again, he went there before Lazio and Fiorentina's problems.


"Nevertheless, the "arrogant one", is the one who says he knows things "better than you". That was you wasn't it?"

No, the "arrogant one" is the one that believes he is never wrong, while others always somehow seem to "missunderstand" everything. That wasn't you, was it?

(in case you need evidence of you being wrong - yes, believe it or not, it happens more often than you would believe - apart from the obvious Lazio/Fiorentina misleading assumption of a phenomenon a decade old, Harvard Univeristy stated on their website that the food pyramid is based on flawed scientific assumptions. You stated everyone in America was exposed to proper nutrition because they have studied the pyramid..... Try again.)