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#901 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 19:53

Instead of aiming to be the first one to get it right, Richard is just trotting with the crowd. His problem, not mine.

 

I don't want to get between two good friends, but Richard clearly does know that his real name is Orenduff, but the only reason Orenduff is on WATN is because of the 1934 Indy 500, and apparently that incorrectly listed him as Ornduff.  So Richard calls him Ornduff, and then makes the point that his name was actually Orenduff.  Almost every other source simply calls him Ornduff.

 

If he changed to Orenduff, then all the people looking for Ornduff would be unable to find him, and Richard would get emails telling him he'd missed out Ornduff.

I really don't think he's doing anything wrong.  All I could suggest is that instead of just saying "Real name Orenduff", Richard could explain that he's only called Ornduff here because Fox and other Indy 500 sources have mistakenly called him Ornduff over many decades.



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#902 D-Type

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 20:03

As WB once wrote: "Pity the poor historian".

Does the database allow dual entries:  ie under "Ornduff" say "See Orenduff," and explain the anomaly there



#903 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 20:41

I don't want to get between two good friends, but Richard clearly does know that his real name is Orenduff, but the only reason Orenduff is on WATN is because of the 1934 Indy 500, and apparently that incorrectly listed him as Ornduff.  So Richard calls him Ornduff, and then makes the point that his name was actually Orenduff.  Almost every other source simply calls him Ornduff.
 
If he changed to Orenduff, then all the people looking for Ornduff would be unable to find him, and Richard would get emails telling him he'd missed out Ornduff.

I really don't think he's doing anything wrong.  All I could suggest is that instead of just saying "Real name Orenduff", Richard could explain that he's only called Ornduff here because Fox and other Indy 500 sources have mistakenly called him Ornduff over many decades.


Sorry, but that makes about as much sense as including all those fantasy Means/Haresnape/Catlin/Russo championships because, well, "everybody else does". And what about all those people who want to find out about the real person Orenduff, and are unable to find him because somebody sixty years ago carelessly invented a fake Ornduff? It's not like Jack Fox didn't know how to spell Orenduff, he got it right several times in his Illustrated History of Sprint Car Racing. If he were still alive, he'd probably email Richard and tell him he'd missed Orenduff :drunk:

And to reiterate, he was never listed under Ornduff, not at Indy in 1934, not in 1937, and not in any of the over 200 other race meetings he competed in. To believe in just one single book that religiously is simply beyond silly.

#904 ReWind

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 21:08

I'll change Ornduff to Orenduff.

http://winfield.50me...s/8Orenduff.jpg



#905 ensign14

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 21:15

Can't you just call him Rathmann?  That will sort everything out.



#906 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 23:05

I'll need to check with Allen re. naming conventions with web links etc to see if this is possible but one comprise solution is listing him as Vern Orenduff (Ornduff).

To be totally honest before today I doubt that Vern's page had ever been looked at!

#907 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:20

Checking a few of the "usual suspects" (ChampCarStats, MotorSportMagazine, HelenaRacing), they all repeat the "real name" nonsense, so it seems they're all copying off you anyway. Nobody will miss "Ornduff" once it's gone, and your site will gain lots of credibility. To be honest, I only started this inquiry here (and I'm very glad I did) because I didn't like the idea of changing hundreds of Orenduffs into Ornduffs in my notes and data - I was ready to trust your research. You can't expect everyone to click through to the last page for every driver out there, you have to get it right on the main list! Otherwise, it's just misleading.

I'll change Ornduff to Orenduff.
http://winfield.50me...s/8Orenduff.jpg


Reinhard, thank you! That's a good find, and should settle the "argument".


To end on a positive note, I found Frankie Bailey's (Bali) birthday, it's 1914 June 1. It was mentioned when he raced a Midget at Nutley on his 24th birthday. :) :)

Edited by Michael Ferner, 27 February 2018 - 06:36.


#908 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:18

Oh, and lest I forget, here's the man Orenduff himself, in his own words (Harrisburg Telegraph, April 23, 1938, p10):
 

I am very proud to say that while I was born in Virginia, was raised in Detroit and come from Florida, I married a Pennsylvania girl.


The Pennsy girl's first name was Helyn, and the bit about Florida is Tallahassee, where Vern made his home since late 1932 after earlier residing in Bluefield/WV and North Carolina (Raleigh or Charlotte). But, born in Virginia?? Do we have the right person with the birthplace in Texas?? Maybe some of the genealogy experts can check the name of the wife. According to his own words, he started racing in Georgia in 1930, and that tallies well with what I have. His recall was remarkably good, he listed his worst crashes over the years precisely with year and track, and I can verify more than 90 % of that through my records. Two times I have seen his age mentioned, and it leads to a birthyear of 1907/'08, rather than '10.

So, what do we say?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 27 February 2018 - 07:23.


#909 Jim Thurman

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 16:54

So, Vern's name was never misspelled in any newspaper account or results?   ;)



#910 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 17:45

Oh, and lest I forget, here's the man Orenduff himself, in his own words (Harrisburg Telegraph, April 23, 1938, p10):
 

The Pennsy girl's first name was Helyn, and the bit about Florida is Tallahassee, where Vern made his home since late 1932 after earlier residing in Bluefield/WV and North Carolina (Raleigh or Charlotte). But, born in Virginia?? Do we have the right person with the birthplace in Texas?? Maybe some of the genealogy experts can check the name of the wife. According to his own words, he started racing in Georgia in 1930, and that tallies well with what I have. His recall was remarkably good, he listed his worst crashes over the years precisely with year and track, and I can verify more than 90 % of that through my records. Two times I have seen his age mentioned, and it leads to a birthyear of 1907/'08, rather than '10.

So, what do we say?

 

 

He's in the 1940 Census in Mineola, Nassau, New York, aged 33, with an occupation of Builder And Mechanic, and married to Helyn with a baby daughter Verna Jeane.  That has to be our man, yet he gives his place of birth as North Carolina and he's claiming he was born around 1907.  However, in the 1920 Census he was only 9 (then living in Wayne, Michigan), and in the 1930 Census (when he was given as Charles Vernon instead of Vernon Charles and living in Charlotte, Mecklenburg, North Carolina, but with the same parents) he was 19.  So the 1940 Census looks wrong (see "Official Information", passim).

 

The North Carolina, Birth Indexes give his name as Oreduff and his date of birth as 29 Dec 1910 (with the same parents he later lived with), in Lee County, which is quite some way from the Virginia state boundary.  

 

So "in his own words", he appears to be somewhat wrong, and he was wrong when interviewed for the 1940 Census too.  Good thing he could remember his wife's name.


Edited by Allen Brown, 27 February 2018 - 17:46.


#911 Michael Ferner

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 19:34

Great info, Allen! I never pegged you as a genealogy expert, though, but that's some impressive sleuthing. So, between what we knew, his own words and the new info there's some semblance devloping: born in North Carolina, raised at least partly in Michigan, returned to NC as an adolescent/young man, and then moved on to West Virginia and finally Florida. By 1940, he was mechanic and builder for the Mike Caruso Midget team on Long Island, so that fits, too! We also have an explanation for his "doctored" age, since he was competing with the AAA in 1930 already and they wouldn't allow a 19yo in competition.

:clap:

So, Vern's name was never misspelled in any newspaper account or results?   ;)


Yes, you're right there - Richard, it's time for a WATN entry for Will Overhead!! :D :lol:

#912 ensign14

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 19:49


So "in his own words", he appears to be somewhat wrong, and he was wrong when interviewed for the 1940 Census too.  Good thing he could remember his wife's name.

 

Although he couldn't spell his own surname.

 

/ducks



#913 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 20:38

Okay, to fill in some gaps/questions.

 

The Texas is my error - having checked again, the V Orenduff born there (12 days after VCO) is not our V Orenduff, so NC is definitely right. Apologies. I readily admit I DO make mistakes, but sometimes I make them and sometimes I have to go via someone's else mistake.

 

I can probably fill in the Virginia claim. Arthur Pierce Orenduff, Vernon's father, was born in Virginia and indeed died there (31-7-1888 d. 10-9-57). So there is obviously some long-standing family connection which Vern appeared to prefer when spinning his quite obvious fictional life. Mother, Fannie, is North Carolina through and through.

 

Now, I have found the following from The Who's Who in Auto Racing (1937)

 

 

Out of the land of the famous Mint Julep comes Colonel Vern Orenduff of Virginia. Vern's early racing career began in 1927 in the Carolinas, and he continued to operate here for many years. Blah blah blah. Orenduff lived for a time at Tallahassee, Florida but lately has been giving his home address as Paterson, New Jersey.

 

So, this also backs the Carolina birth. No idea why he's calling himself a Colonel as there's no obvious military service at all, publicity blurb or not.

 

Anyway................... after further digging, both Vernon and Arthur were born in the Eastern part of Sanford, Lee, North Carolina.

 

So, no compromise, just total surrender.

 

http://www.oldracing...er/Vern_Ornduff (ignore the page link name - the name is now changed)

 

So let's try again...

 

NEW INFORMATION:

Complete Birth information: Ricci (and WATN)

Complete Death Information: Orenduff (day and change of birthplace), Linn (day and changed death place)

Birth Place: Franca (Birthyear as well), Ahmed

Death Place: Ge. Bugatti

Other: Bellasi (birth year), C Green and B Evans (I) - death year

 

Thanks to everyone for working together to solve this. 


Edited by Richard Jenkins, 27 February 2018 - 20:40.


#914 Jim Thurman

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 18:05

Can't you just call him Rathmann?  That will sort everything out.

 

It didn't for the wire services or the New York Times, which used a photo of (James) Dick Rathmann for the obituary of Royal Richard (James) Rathmann. I couldn't do anything about how it spread via the wires (as a Google will still show), but did manage to get the Times to make a correction and also correct the story that he and his brother swapped identities in the Midwest.



#915 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 18:36

Well done, Richard. Now just lean back, enjoy a glass of red or a cool one, and watch as the "usual suspects" begin to take on the new information... Copying is the sincerest form of flattery, they say! :lol:  ;)

#916 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 21:14

Latest updates for http://www.oldracing...m/drivers/watn/

 

2018 UPDATES:

 

Albacete, Ayari, A Beltoise, Bremer, M Brabham, J Booth, J Camathias, Constantino Jr, Couto, Cuquerella, Collard, de Villota, C Daly, Davison, Del Castello, Danner, J Gene, Gidley, Giammaria, Goss, Gosselin, Giovanardi, Gommendy, N Hattori, J Howard, Hildebrand, Jourdain Jr, Johansson, Larini, Lancieri, Mann, Meira, Marques, Mazzacane, Mehri, Moran Jr, Massa, Nakano, Necchi, Plowman, Policand, Piccini, Rangoni, Ranger, Stevens, Speed, Van Hooydonk, Wilds, Wirdheim, Yoong, Zanardi

 

General WATN UPDATES:

Jo. Andretti  :( , E Brambilla, Bernoldi, Bartels, Belloc, Battistini, Burti, P Chaves, Carroll, Dallest, Dennis, de Ferran, Duno, Elford, Enge, G Evans, Farneti, M Groff, Heger, Hesketh, Haryanto, Hornish, Iida, M Jourdain, Kennedy, Laffite, Lanier, Lucas, Luydenyk Jr, Lohr, Minassian, McGarrity, Melo  :( , Nardozi, J O'connell, Pic, C Robisnon, HJ Stuck, B Simpson, Slater, Sauvage, Stevenson, Ro. and Ri. Sperafico

 

Died:

B Boyer, Miles, R Schmidt, Stiller

 

New:

Ferrucci, Celis Jr

 

New Info: Hodkin - deathplace

 

Changed Info: Ornduff/Orenduff etc as above - H Richards - change of birthdate and place

 

Indy 500 totals updated as well.

 

Thanks to:

 

Guilherme Ribeiro (Dallest), Allen Brown and Michael Ferner (Ornduff/Orenduff), Adriano Brunelli (Richards), Peter Venn (Slater) and Chuck Stevenson Jr. (Stevenson)


Edited by Richard Jenkins, 02 July 2018 - 21:15.


#917 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 21:44

The Where Are They Now? section has not only had a little facelift and streamlining; it's now got two new categories and over 80 more names on the website.

 


Included within the existing North American Racers section of the website, all those who competed in the ARS series (1986-1989).


Also, in another move to balance the focus of drivers, we now have The "World Championship Engine Designers" - a loose term to describe designers, engine directors and powertrain heads of World Championship teams from 1950 to the present day.
A few of them are missing information and a lot of them need photographs, so any assistance would be appreciated.
The website now includes the likes of Paul Radisich, Harald Huysman, Keith Duckworth, Paul Rosche, Enrico Plate and many many more.

Find more out here: http://www.oldracingcars.com/watn/



#918 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 22:45

Latest updates for http://www.oldracing...m/drivers/watn/

 

2018 UPDATES:

Alonso, Bottas, Bouiller, B Bell, Bruni, Bourdais, Castroneves, Chilton, Campos, de Ferran, di Grassi, de Silvestro, Fisichella, Ericsson, C Fittipaldi, Gasly, Giovanazzi, Gutierrez, Hawksworth, Hunter Reay, Hinchcliffe, Hulkenberg, E Jones, Jordan King, Legge, Larini, Lowndes, Lotterer, JM Lopez, Leist, Lamy, Massa, Newgarden, Nasr, Petrov, Pigot, Power, Paffett, Ricciardo, A Rossi, Rahal, B Senna, Shank, Sainz, Sato, Speed, van der Garde, Vergne, Veach,  Wehrlein

 

General WATN UPDATES:

C Andersson, L Brayton, Busslinger, Duesmann, Divila, Dominguez, Dauer, Frison, Fomenko, W Fittipaldi, D Halliday, Koechlin, Lederle, Mieusset, McRae, J MacDonald, C Murphy, Mol, Mallya, Mader, Nakamoto, Pairetti, Preston, Shawe-Taylor, Vento, Wickens, Wendorff, N Wirth

 

Died:

Akagi, Cleberg, D Morgan, Nunn, Pieterse, Robin, Salisbury

 

New:

Norris, G Russell, Rosenqvist, Szafnauer, C Herta, P O’Ward

 

New Info: 

Bellasi – full birthdate (and change of birthplace)

Terbeck – birthplace (and WATN)

Vita - birthyear

 

Changed Info: 

D Drake – change of death day and WATN

Fiedler – spelling and deathplace

Martinelli – change of birthdate

P Morgan – change of birthdate

Prestwich - birthdate

 

2018 GP totals updated as well.

 

Thanks to:

Nino Frison (himself)

Vinicio Salmi (Francesco Vento)

Rewind – Drake, Prestwich, Morgan, Fiedler



#919 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 22:45

Latest updates for http://www.oldracing...m/drivers/watn/

 

2019 UPDATES:

Albacete, Antinucci, Barrichello, Bjork, R Binder, Blundell, A Beltoise, Button, Bouchut, Bleekemolen, Barron, Caffi, Dalziel, C Daly, Davison, de Oliveira, Di Resta, Dumas, Ferrucci, P Fittipaldi, Glock, Guerreri, Gosselin, Gommendy, Gutierrez, Head, Heylen, J Harvey, Haryanto, W Henzler, M Halliday, B Hartley, Karthikeyan, Kubica, Joest, Julian, Jani, C Kimball, Key, Karam, K Kaiser, Jo. King, Konrad, Lazzaro, M Lauda, Luhr, Lohr, C Mears, P Mann, Mazzacane, Matsuura, Maldonado, Y Muller, Montoya, Mc Dowell, Ocon, Plowman, Piccini, Pagenaud, Policand, Perera, Ranger, Reeves, Rostan, Stevens, Sarrazin, Sirotkin, Saavedra, Tung, Tracy, Tyler, Tarquni, J Villeneuve Jr, Vautier, Verdonck, Vandoorne, Wehrlein, A Wirth, Wyss, Yeley, Zonta

 

General WATN UPDATES:

P Adams, Alesi, Bright, P Burgess, Borgudd, B Brack, Bert, Chevrier, Capelli, Dickens, Donnelly, Delle Piane, Goodyear, Gunnarsson, F Giaffone, Heywood, Ireland, Iida, Kreyer, Kiesa, Jourdain jr, Lehto, Lamplough, Moreno, Marazzi, Mazzucco, G Murray, G Morris, Mollekens, C Muller, Nakano, Pesenti-Rossi, D Ryan, Studer, Van der Merwe, Viso, Whiteaway, Zakowski

 

Died:

Dini, Hiss (change of birthplace), J Miller, Lipper, Sterzel, D Thomas, Van Rossem

 

New:

Albon, Hanley, Eggington

 

New Info: 

C Cox, Rocca, JC Romano, Romero - FULL birth details

Fansin - death details and WATN

Gassmann, R Howard - FULL birth and death details & WATN

C Green - FULL death details

Lago, Rader - death day

Siegrist - birthplace

Zava - birthyear, birthplace and WATN

 

Other

Stefano Modena interview https://www.oldracin...Stefano-Modena/

 

Thanks to:

Stefano Modena

Jim Thurman (Thomas)

Gergely Gabris (Brack and Adams)



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#920 ReWind

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 17:29

Most interesting life stories of designer Hans Gassmann and aviator Ray Howard.

Thanks.



#921 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 19:04

You're welcome. It was really nice to not only to solve their life dates but to make them so much more than just a name; something I'm trying to work on over the next few years.