64 replies to this topic

[holiday]

It was a ballsy move. The atmosphere and support of the crowd generated a higher level of confidence for Nigel. With his self-belief, he was able to pull off manoeuvres that would not have been possible under normal circumstances. The crowd expected nothing less than victory.
John Watson about Nigel's move on Piquet at Stowe corner at Silverstone '87



Hi, I am curious about the opinion of British formula1-fans of Nigel Mansell. Before joining this BB, I was always of the impression that he was hugely popular in GB during his time and especially prime. But since then, I stumbled here over more than his fair share of criticism which left me a bit confused. Admittedly, I myself have a rather ambivalent relationship to Mansell. I mean, there all to often seemed to be two of him, the one in the race and the other...afterwards. But f1 is meant to be an entertaining business and nobody could deny that Mansell was mostly entertaining, only one way or the other.

Anyway, I was witnessing from abroad what was on the isle undoubtedly a big hype surrounding him, I think at beginning of the nineties much more than during his first stint with Williams in the eighties. Witnessing some quite harsh comments here for a while now, I now wonder if the Mansellmania was rather a product of 'fleet street' as Roebuck actually was indicating in one of his articles a while ago. So was the Mansell-Mania a media phenomenon rather than the genuine expression of the people?

My other question refers to Mansell's performances at his home Grand Prix. Was he really regularly outperforming there, from start to end of his career, like people like to say. Somehow I am lacking some kind of comprehensive overview there to form an opinion of my own. And to those who were present at some British GP or other, how were people reacting to their local hero, after all the first British World Champion since Jackie Stewart.


Cheers
Holiday

[Vitesse2]

Hmmm .... Noige ..... well .....

There were two views of Nigel. One was that of the purists, who were rather disdainful of the media hype which surrounded "Our Nige". Yes, he was a "ballsy" driver, no doubt about that. But he WHINGED! Nothing was ever his fault - if he went off, somehow it was the car's fault, or the track, or the team, or the tyres, or the weather, or ... or ....

OTOH there was the Sun reader's perspective. "Our Nige" was allegedly the working class hero, Britain's first real GP driver since James Hunt (Hunt was a toff, so he didn't really count) - in the Nige era, F1 became a working class sport and Silverstone was patrolled by blokes in Union Jack shorts. The same people were normally found on football terraces and once Nige retired that is where they returned.

Okay, that's set the scene ....

[jarama]

Originally posted by holiday
[i]

And to those who were present at some British GP or other, how were people reacting to their local hero, after all the first British World Champion since Jackie Stewart.


Cheers
Holiday

holiday,

and what about James Hunt? I pressume you're forgetting him.

Carles.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by jarama


holiday,

and what about James Hunt? I pressume you're forgetting him.

Carles.

I didn't

[Bernd]

I don't think Sir JYS would appreciate being called British either ;)

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Bernd
I don't think Sir JYS would appreciate being called British either ;)

He'd be quite happy to be called British. But not English ....

[LittleChris]

Funny that for a mid 70's working class bloke, he had a house to sell, whereas someone like Geoff Lees had nothing but talent to sell ! Nuff said

[masterhit]

Er.. it was quite distasteful to read the tabloids when Nigel was driving, quite honestly. And I speak as a partriot. I didn't go to Silverstone for two reasons in 1991 - it was so obviously going to be a walkover for Nigel, and the fans were going to invade the track, and that stuff scares me. I'd rather pay my 100 quid on seeing a race, like the year before. No doubt that Mansell was very much a racer, and as Mike Lawrence once said if his balls were asteroids, they would wipe out all life on Earth. But yeah, the nationalism got a bit much, for it had been a long time since we had a British f1 world champion. Nonetheless Mansell would be on my "I know they are stupid anyway" list of great drivers, with drivers I have never witnessed racing such as Ascari and Fangio, Nuvolari right at the "top" but not numbered as we will never know. And a pause for the drivers who never made it but would have shook the world. The tomb of the Unknown Drivers. A pause for the dead, the great, and a pause for Futility, for to name and number is to dilute and to diminish the incredible and indefinable. Anyway, back on topic.. Mansell was VERY popular at British GP's and the hate campaign against Senna particularly distasteful, and stirred up, I'm afraid by The Sun, a British newspaper. In turn, he fed off the crowd in an incredible way, and his race performances at home were always something to marvel at.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by masterhit
Mansell was VERY popular at British GP's and the hate campaign against Senna particularly distasteful, and stirred up, I'm afraid by The Sun, a British newspaper.

Hate campaign against Senna? Hey, I never of that - but then, I'm from the other side of the pond & never looked at a Sun headline since the Falklands war....

[masterhit]

The Sun never directly called it a hate camapign, but pretty much tended to.. dramatise things. And there were banners at Silverstone, not many though, saying bad things about Senna from those who take F1 way too seriously.

[Bernd]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


He'd be quite happy to be called British. But not English ....

Er yes you're right what was I thinking....
I think perhaps it was Clark who didn't like to be called anything but a Scot.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Bernd


I think perhaps it was Clark who didn't like to be called anything but a Scot.

Somewhat understandable, to be honest (and this is an Englishman speaking, by the way)

As the actor Richard Harris said, if you do well its a case of British actor Richard harris nominated for Oscar, but then on the flipside its Irish actor Richard Harris accused of drunken brawl!

Going slightly OT, these are the stages of Man, from an Actor's perspective

This is what casting agents wil say:

1. "Who is Richard Harris?" (young and unknown)

2. "Get me Richard Harris!" (if you make it into their consciousness)

3. "Get me a Richard Harris type !" (you are so popular that they want someone who looks like you, but commnds less salary!)

4. "Get me a young Richard Harris!" (ouch!)

5. "Who is Richard Harris?" (off the consciousness scale again!)

Works just as well for drivers, indeed the rest of us really!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Why is Mansell-Piquet 87 lauded as one of "The Passes" of GP racing when DC's identical move on Rubens Barrichello in 2000, in arguably a more difficult era to pass in, is hardly remembered?

[masterhit]

Hi ross. I can only say that the pass was somewhat overhyped, but I guess it would be the fact that it had the edge of being competition between teammates, in the quickest cars, with absolutely no love lost between them, and generally, even in that era, drivers who raced from that far back tended to run out of fuel, blow their turbo, their tyres would puncture/blister/go off or their brakes would fade at it would reach an anticlimax, so it was a good race for the lead between total opposites in character? Would they crash? That kind of thing. It made for good tv. But I find myself tending to go against the flow somewhat, so if someone says such and such was a great pass I tend to think that there are actually too many good moments in F1 racing over the years to list! Funnily enough, though, despite not being a Mansell fan as such, his move around the outside of Peraltada (spelling?) in the 1990 Mexican GP was very ballsy!!

[Slyder]

Ok, Nige maybe overrated, but it still pisses me off that they even blame him eventhough at times he was dead on right. People really underrated Nigel in his later years when in fact most of the things that happen wasn't his fault.

Sure there was Estoril 1990, Montreal 1992 and other races.

But seriously, his CART and F1 stances put a strain on him in 1994. but HE STILL WON IN ADELAIDE DIDN'T HE?

Just like he did in 1986, Mansell went supremely confident in 1995 after winning Adelaide, and In my opinion, he would've been a challenger for that years title. I can bet a 100 bucks that he would've.

But then the silly thing came that he didn't fit in the McLaren came about. It pisses me off that they blame this on Nigel. If there's anyone to blame is Ron Dennis, since the idiot should've known in the first place of this problem and tell whoever was designing the car to be aware of it and solve the problem in time, but they didn't do that. Nige had to sit out for a whole two months before they could redesign a new cockpit for him, but instead of letting adapt himself to the car, they rushed him into the car, and they were surprised that he didn't do well. Well duh idiots, how is he supposed to do well in a car for Christ sake, if he hasn't even had a decent run in the car, much less hadn't done any mileage yet?

Ron gave him the boot after that. It pissed me off when Ron did that, and Nigel of course whinged about it, and as always, no one believed him. BUT HE WAS RIGHT, Ron was at fault for not overlooking that problem earlier in the first place, and that screwed up Nigels chances of a great if not decent comeback in F1. I would've loved it if he were up there challenging Hill and Schumacher for the title, but thanks to idiot Ron and his designer, that never happened.

I still respect Nigel, though, since he he was able to win the WDC in 1992, and be runner-up 3 times, and then proved himself to everyone in America by beating all the supposed "Indy car stars" by becoming CART champion in 1993 in his rookie season (I admire him for that particulary), eventhough he missed a race due to injury. Hell, he even managed to finish 3rd in the Indy 500, and would've won the race hadn't it been for scraping the wall with 15 laps to go, and had to back down to safeguard his front suspension.

I salute him, he was always fun to watch.

[Slyder]

Originally posted by masterhit
Er.. it was quite distasteful to read the tabloids when Nigel was driving, quite honestly. And I speak as a partriot. I didn't go to Silverstone for two reasons in 1991 - it was so obviously going to be a walkover for Nigel, and the fans were going to invade the track, and that stuff scares me. I'd rather pay my 100 quid on seeing a race, like the year before. No doubt that Mansell was very much a racer, and as Mike Lawrence once said if his balls were asteroids, they would wipe out all life on Earth. But yeah, the nationalism got a bit much, for it had been a long time since we had a British f1 world champion. Nonetheless Mansell would be on my "I know they are stupid anyway" list of great drivers, with drivers I have never witnessed racing such as Ascari and Fangio, Nuvolari right at the "top" but not numbered as we will never know. And a pause for the drivers who never made it but would have shook the world. The tomb of the Unknown Drivers. A pause for the dead, the great, and a pause for Futility, for to name and number is to dilute and to diminish the incredible and indefinable. Anyway, back on topic.. Mansell was VERY popular at British GP's and the hate campaign against Senna particularly distasteful, and stirred up, I'm afraid by The Sun, a British newspaper. In turn, he fed off the crowd in an incredible way, and his race performances at home were always something to marvel at.

i agree that the whole crowd thing was overblown, but if you look at it in another way, it was pretty patriotic.

I mean, seriously, who did they have back then as a contender to challenge Senna?

Mansell was pretty much the only one. Hell Johnny Herbert wasn't even impressing back then.

[911]

I've read this thread at an amazing time because just tonight I watched an old tape of mine. It's called Nigel Mansell's British Grand Prix - 1991. Yes, there was a lot of hype but there were several interesting events that lead up to that race. First, Mansell "retires" at the end of the 1990 season. Then he announces he's driving for Williams in '91. Practically right out of the box, the Williams is very competiive in the first part of the season, and even Senna recognizes this. Mansell "could" have won Brazil & Canada -> especially Canada! Finally, he wins at Magny Cours and breaks Stirling Moss' Grand Prix victories by a British driver. So, he came into Silverstone with a lot of momentum and the media exploited this. Even in this video Nigel referred to a Grand Prix as an entertaining show that the public wants to see. Anyway, Mansell always seemed to do well at his home Grand Prix. Amazingly, in '88 w/ the NA Judd engine he came in 2nd.

Although Senna was/is my favorite driver, I liked Mansell because of his courage (his pass on Berger in Mexico was probably the best pass I've ever seen). There was a post here on Atlas several years ago and it was on the best passes in F1. Mansell's name came up quite a bit.

911

[Darren Galpin]

The 1987 British GP was the first GP I went to. I was 12 at the time, and I was sat on the Hangar Straight and had a full view of the overtaking manouevre. To a child it was a highly impressionable day - you could tell when Mansell was coming around as you could hear the cheer of the crowd before he arrived. There was also the sense of excitement and anticipation of something special - he may have been behind, but you knew he was somehow going to catch up. And to hear the crowd when he pulled off that move....... I don't care what is said, to an impressionable boy who was beginning to understand what F1 was really about, it was a day to remember!

[Gary Davies]

The obvious thing is to contribute to this thread with one's own impression of Nigel/Nige/Our Nige/Noige ... according to one's particular standpoint or prejudice.

But holiday's hypothesis is about "The Mansell-Mania & Nigel British at Mansell GPs" which I choose to take as raising the topic of the sociology around the Mansell phenomenon. Perhaps the kernel of his post was the question: "So was the Mansell-Mania a media phenomenon rather than the genuine expression of the people?"

I assert I am as British as the Ploughman's Lunch, the M25, The Bill, the English batting collapse, but having lived in Oz these last 30 years, I am at last beginning to view my countrymen with perhaps a somewhat objective eye. I have also had the privilege of returning to my homeland perhaps 30 times since 1972 and the Avis Heathrow depot is familar territory. I'm been able to eyeball the place from both sides of the globe.

I was there, somewhere near Club, on July 12 1987 and I must confess the ardour of the crowd was of biblical proportions. The ugliness of it caused me no little dismay - but not surprise. This was an English ambience quite inconsistent with the country I grew up in in the 50's and 60's.

I sensed an anger in the "Union Jack shorted ones", to paraphrase Richard, that spoke of a national frustration. Frustration at the loss of Empire and military and political influence, the loss of industry - motor cycles, motor cars, steel, shipbuilding - and the realisation that really, this was just a small set of islands off the west coast of Europe. Don't shoot the messenger here; see para 3!

Mansell was all about symbolism. The Blitz mentality. Monty at El Alamein. Isaac Newton, Alexander Fleming, Bobby Moore and the '66 World Cup, Horatio Nelson, Sir Malcolm Campbell. Such chest-swelling imagery has been sadly absent in late 20th. century Britain.

Mansell, for his encyclopaedic list of failings (Has a more puke-making book than "Nigel Mansell - My Autobiography ever been written?), was an achiever. A winner, a man with a determination to succeed. You could argue about the merits of his philosophy, but what is undeniable is that it is contrast to that of many British sportspeople.

He lit in the breasts of many of his countrymen a flame that reminded them of their long lost national pride. Sure it was coarse and, at its heart, essentially xenophobic, but they - aided and abetted by the Mile End press who could always recognise a good circulation generator when they stumbled over one - saw the same in Mansell as their fathers and grandfathers saw in The Few during the summer of 1940.

I would argue that the whole thing was media driven, but the media can only fan a flame; they can rarely create a sentiment that is not there in the first place. There was, and is, always a group that is ready for a countryman to stick it up the foreigners.

The other day I had lunch with the CEO of a client organisation, a most cultured Aussie, and we talked briefly about England's
gruesome attempt at cricket at Brisbane. He dismissed the overwhelming manner of Australia's victory by observing that there is more to sport than simply winning.

But the Union Jack shorted ones at Silverstone, the crowds scorning the Poms at cricket grounds across this wide brown land don't appreciate that.

Mansell represented that imbalance that exists in, I suspect, many societies. Evidence, perhaps, that many crave evidence of the essential worthiness of their particular tribe.

For all that, I must say that I just adored Mansell as a driver (watch my lips ... "as a driver"!) He was smart, aggressive, mostly very fair and intelligent. As overall operators within a team, perhaps his main contemporaries Senna and Prost consumately outmanueuvred him but on the track he was the most worthy of competitors. And set against the pantheon of Grand Prix drivers, that must place Mansell high amongst the deity.

[Eric McLoughlin]

People born in the Republic of Ireland can NEVER be termed British (unless they successfully apply for British citizenship/nationality). For example, the following individuals have often been incorrectly termed British:

Richard Harris (as above)
Derek Daly
Terry Wogan
Bob Geldof
Bono (of U2)
Barry McGuigan (born and brought up in Co. Monaghan - Irish Republic)

In fact, Geldof and Bono were recently and erroneously included in the BBC's Top 100 Britons listing. Mrs Thatcher famously, and incorrectly, once referred to Geldof as a "True Brit with True
Grit".

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Vanwall
"So was the Mansell-Mania a media phenomenon rather than the genuine expression of the people?"
.....
I was there, somewhere near Club, on July 12 1987 and I must confess the ardour of the crowd was of biblical proportions. The ugliness of it caused me no little dismay - but not surprise. This was an English ambience quite inconsistent with the country I grew up in in the 50's and 60's.

I sensed an anger in the "Union Jack shorted ones", to paraphrase Richard, that spoke of a national frustration. Frustration at the loss of Empire and military and political influence, the loss of industry - motor cycles, motor cars, steel, shipbuilding - and the realisation that really, this was just a small set of islands off the west coast of Europe. Don't shoot the messenger here; see para 3!

Mansell was all about symbolism. The Blitz mentality. Monty at El Alamein. Isaac Newton, Alexander Fleming, Bobby Moore and the '66 World Cup, Horatio Nelson, Sir Malcolm Campbell. Such chest-swelling imagery has been sadly absent in late 20th. century Britain.

Mansell, for his encyclopaedic list of failings (Has a more puke-making book than "Nigel Mansell - My Autobiography ever been written?), was an achiever. A winner, a man with a determination to succeed. You could argue about the merits of his philosophy, but what is undeniable is that it is contrast to that of many British sportspeople.

He lit in the breasts of many of his countrymen a flame that reminded them of their long lost national pride. Sure it was coarse and, at its heart, essentially xenophobic, but they - aided and abetted by the Mile End press who could always recognise a good circulation generator when they stumbled over one - saw the same in Mansell as their fathers and grandfathers saw in The Few during the summer of 1940.

A very good analysis The point about "end of Empire" is well made and strikes a chord - there was a TV series called precisely that in this period, looking back at the way Britain divested itself of its overseas possessions with almost indecent haste. The Falklands was mentioned earlier in this thread - another major flag-waving exercise, which stirred up enormous media fever, especially in the tabloids. Mansell was emerging at about this time, with a reputation as a supremely unlucky but determined driver - British bulldog spirit etc etc. I think you're going a bit over the top comparing him to The Few though! And ninety-nine out of a hundred of the Union Jack shorted ones would be hard pushed to tell you who Fleming was, let alone what he did! I take your point though. Mansell-mania was born of the same philosophy as "Gotcha" - gratifyingly, even the Sun has toned down its ultra-nationalism these days, although it may return over the Euro ....

Originally posted by Vanwall
For all that, I must say that I just adored Mansell as a driver (watch my lips ... "as a driver"!) He was smart, aggressive, mostly very fair and intelligent. As overall operators within a team, perhaps his main contemporaries Senna and Prost consumately outmanueuvred him but on the track he was the most worthy of competitors. And set against the pantheon of Grand Prix drivers, that must place Mansell high amongst the deity.

As a driver, yes. But I wish he hadn't whinged so much ....

[masterhit]

It's weird, but one finds oneself admiring somebody all the more through chats like this.

I think Vanwall's comments about end of empire, lack of top level heroes in the world pantheon for Englishmen is highly perceptive and not said often enough. There was obviously, on reflection, a quiet growing disbelief and horror. Because, let's not forget, we often had invented or been instrumental in helping revolutionise and popularise such sports as soccer, cricket, rugby, tennis in the first place. Motor Racing was and is, the last sport in which we have a true industry.

By all accounts, this too is crumbling, as the manufacturers -Renault, BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Ferrari, Honda and Toyota are fighting for their commercial interests to be represented.. more directly.

So, to coin a famous Letters page phrase, "Imagine our surprise when..." everybody else turned out to be equally good, and often better!

It is important in this sense to make an absolute distinction between English and British. For while Scotland had been incredibly well represented in having Clark and Stewart, we had the likes of Surtees and Graham Hill, Mike Hawthorn, and the great Stirling Moss, and of course James Hunt, generally speaking us Brits tended to be more poorly represented by virtue of the fact that despite having a larger population than that of Scotland, still Scotland had produced two multiple world champions, and therefore one would reasonably expect that England could and should have produced more champions than it had. But the fact remained while we called them British, rather than Scottish, still, deep down, there must, on reflection have been a quiet desperation and hope for another English driver to stir the heart once more.

And in Mansell, we had someone who despite his failings could take on the very very best driver in the world, and arguably one who deserves in terms of talent to be mentioned in the same breath as the true greats. Equally Mansell was not upper class, so as Vanwall says he had had grass roots level support - the "Union jack shorts" wearing crowd could adopt him as one of their own, for he had served his apprenticeship, it had not come easy. He was not the son of a multi million pound businessman, he had a house worth money admittedly but like Gilles Villeneuve, typically, he put on it all on the line and sold it in order to finance his career. And then, in typically Englsih fashion, there had been hardships once he reached Forumula One. He established a reputation, like Hunt, like Scheckter, like Gilles, like Peterson as a quick driver when the mood took him but way too hard on his machinery. Indeed when he stepped into a Williams, it was hard to believe that he was the same driver! A pause to think what may have happened if Gilles too had driven a Williams....

So yes Mansell was exciting to watch on a charge and despite his charisma free zone outside the car tened to come to life behind the wheel. It really, like Gilles, was like watching two diffferent people. Senna too had that effect, but his articulate speech, incredible poetry and philosophy really enhanced the feeling that he was an artist, that he could have done pretty much anything he choosed and he so happened to be inhabiting our world, whereas with Mansell he seemed..bland outside the car, a shell going through the motions. Yet inside the car he would be possessed by some latent internal force.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
People born in the Republic of Ireland can NEVER be termed British (unless they successfully apply for British citizenship/nationality). For example, the following individuals have often been incorrectly termed British:

Richard Harris (as above)
Derek Daly
Terry Wogan
Bob Geldof
Bono (of U2)
Barry McGuigan (born and brought up in Co. Monaghan - Irish Republic)

In fact, Geldof and Bono were recently and erroneously included in the BBC's Top 100 Britons listing. Mrs Thatcher famously, and incorrectly, once referred to Geldof as a "True Brit with True
Grit".

This is such a good point. U2 are forever described as a British band, and forever win at the Brit awrds, yet are very much Irish born and bred, and yet us English give the impression that they are from Great Britain. Another case of how we tend to label things as our own when it suits us, and a very important consideration in the whole perception of nationalistic identity.

[BRG]

I think you are over-analysing all this a bit. Maybe the British public liked Mansell simply because he was a determined and gritty guy who actually won sometimes. Why is that so strange? No-one questions it when the Aussies cheer for their winning cricket team (but conveniently forget about their LOSING rugby team ). Why is that only the British aren't allowed the luxury of suporting their successful sportsmen? And as for Vanwall's Aussie CEO saying "there is more to sport than simply winning" - sorry, I don't buy that! That is not the Aussie sporting mentality that we know and love! If he tried saying that at an Australian sporting occasion, I think that some other chaps might remonstrate with him a little.

I agree that the Fleet St (and especially the Sun) support for Mansell was tasteless, but what was wrong with cheering your fellow countryman on to victory? No-one criticises the Italians for being Ferrari fanatics, or the Germans for supporting Schumacher and/or Mercedes, or the Japanese lionising the excellent Takuma Sato or the Finns and Brazilians backing their drivers wholeheartedly. So why can't the Brits have their bit of patriotic fervour? Personally, one of the most heartwarming sights of recent years for me was the support that the British rowing eight received in Sydney at the last Olympics. And it worked - against the odds, and despite all the Australian media abuse and the sledging from the home crowd, they took gold.

All this stuff about loss of Empire is all very well, but that was yesterday. Forget it, this is now and Britain is as entitled to cheer for its sporting heroes as as any other country. Maybe Mansell was a pain in the b*m out of the car (maybe? - what am I saying??) but in it, he was a copper-bottomed 100% hero, in the best Boy's Own Paper mould. He won races and a WDC, often against the odds and he was firm but fair on the track. He even took on and beat the mighty Senna. What more do you want from a racer? Why WOULDN'T you cheer on a guy like that?

[The Fazz]

I still think that Mansell is hugely popular - but only as a driver. Many just don't like his whinges. I was a huge Senna fan during his time. But I've always enjoyed watching Mansell. I was studying in England at the time, and it irked me that the press would lionise "Our Nige" - which basically polarised F1 fans in a way that only EPL football fans are. Being a Senna fan, I should have disliked Mansell, but yet he is one of my favourite drivers. He may not be a Prost or a Schumi, but he is one of the few who could pull a very daring manouvre (when it works, it is hall of fame stuff, when it doesn't he is an idiot). To quote somebody "Mansell has the balls the size of planets, but nothing between the ears".

I did a list of best passes long time ago, and managed to name many of Mansell's overtaking moves. Peraltalda was the best. Although, not as good - his game of chicken with Senna at Barcelona at 190mph was memorable. Who else, but Mansell?

[Paul Parker]

I have read the many and varied threads on the subject of Nigel Mansell's personality with growing irritation. Additionally the pseudo psycho-analysis of British (English) characteristics are equally annoying.

Firstly it is true of all humanity that some will be good, some indifferent and some bad. The fact that any given individual is a world beater or very good at their chosen profession has nothing whatsoever to do with their attitude toward others or their moral integrity. Many successful people are single minded, ruthless and ego driven. As for criticising Nigel's attitude out of the car just consider the behaviour of far too many so called professional British football players for instance. Mansell was feted simply because he was an Englishman who could and did win, instead of losing on the big occasion as typified by our tennis players and cricketers (and many others over the years). The inevitable response of apparent patriotism must be seen in this context, and the English should not be made to feel bad about celebrating it. The Scottish, Welsh and Irish and indeed nearly all countries around the globe never fail to sing their own praises when they win.

It is worth remembering that post JYS even the most talented of British drivers had a very bad time in F1. Many never advanced beyond F3/F2, and those that did all too often found themselves in uncompetitive cars that torpedoed their F1 careers. Only Hunt and Watson escaped this situation at the time and later on Mansell only just survived the trials and tribulations at Lotus, post Chapman.

[Evo One]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
People born in the Republic of Ireland can NEVER be termed British (unless they successfully apply for British citizenship/nationality). For example, the following individuals have often been incorrectly termed British:

Richard Harris (as above)
Derek Daly
Terry Wogan
Bob Geldof
Bono (of U2)
Barry McGuigan (born and brought up in Co. Monaghan - Irish Republic)

In fact, Geldof and Bono were recently and erroneously included in the BBC's Top 100 Britons listing. Mrs Thatcher famously, and incorrectly, once referred to Geldof as a "True Brit with True
Grit".

As Eire is part of the British Isles surely there is an argument that it's inhabitants are also 'British' but not English, Scottish, Manx, Welsh or Ulstermen.

[Garagiste]

I think NMs reputation as a whinger is at least partly undeserved. Try saying this in your head: "I hit one of the white lines, it was really slippery and I span off". Sounds like an explaination of what happened. Now try it in a Brummie accent that makes Noddy Holder sound like Mr Chomondely-Warner. Hey presto - we have a whinger!

"Imagine our surprise when..." everybody else turned out to be equally good

Luckily, we both saw the funny side!

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by masterhit


This is such a good point. U2 are forever described as a British band, and forever win at the Brit awrds, yet are very much Irish born and bred, and yet us English give the impression that they are from Great Britain. Another case of how we tend to label things as our own when it suits us, and a very important consideration in the whole perception of nationalistic identity.

Erm, I think U2 win Brit Awards titled "Best International Group" and "Best International Album"...

They did win a lifetime achievement award a few years back, which could be a little confusing but still...I think the Brits is simply a name, in the same way the Oscars are - aside from the awards actually titled "Best British...group, album, newcomer" etc they are open to everyone.

So the name is misleading - kind of opposite to Baseball's WORLD Series, which of course excludes everyone outside North America!

As for Maggie saying about Gedolf "True Grit, True Brit" - when did she actually get anything right?

I know there were issues about giving Bob his knighthood due to his nationality - like Rudolph Guiliani I believe he cannot be referred to as a Sir despite being a knight since he is not British.

I do generally agree about labelling people something when it suits us - think of the BRITISH skiier Alan Baxter after his medal winning run at the 2002 Winter Olympics, and how quickly he became the disgraced SCOTTISH skiier after he failed a drug test!

As for Mansell - James Hunt made an interesting quote comparing fanatical Brits at that time with their Italian counterparts, and how the Brits do it so badly while the Italians do it in a non-threatening, passionate way (I assume James never attended a Lazio-Roma derby!). I will look it up tonight and post back here later.

[masterhit]

I am reading up on the legal definitions Britain and the United Kingdom at the moment, just to make sense of it as it's easy to get these confused - for example, the "Union" Jack has the combined flags of the countries in Britain, but, significantly because Northern Ireland is governed by England, there is nothing in the Union Jack to incorporate Northern Ireland. Southern Ireland is a republic, a separate country not ruled or governed by Britain since 1922.

Its fascinating, for example Ireland was ruled as a separate kingdom in the Middle Ages.

Great Britain (GB)

England, Scotland and Wales.

United Kingdom (UK)

Also known as The Union, Britain.

The (UK) is made up of the countries of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Its full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Legally inhabitants are British.

Britain

Britain is an informal name for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Now I understand why the Union Jack is also called the British Flag.

Ireland

The Island of Ireland is the whole of Ireland. It is split into Northern and Southern Ireland.

This is not the place to get into the complex history of Ireland.

The only people legally Irish are from
Eire , or Southern Ireland , The
Republic of Ireland. In 1922, Southern Ireland withdrew from the union. Southern Ireland is no longer part of the United Kingdom. Inhabitants ar legally Irish.

Northern Ireland
Is the north east of Ireland. It contains the only land border in the UK - 488 km (303 miles) - shared with the Republic of Ireland.

The capital, Belfast, is home to the new Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive.

Its inhabitants are legally British.

There are a number of citizens in Northern Ireland who call themselves Irish as they will not recognise the division of Northern and Southern Ireland, nonetheless legally this is how things stand at present.

The Commonwealth
Previously known as the British Empire. Consists of the following:

Antigua and Barbuda
Australia

Bangladesh
Barbados

Belize
Botswana

Brunei Darussalam
Cameroon

Canada
Cyprus

Dominica
Fiji Islands

Ghana
Grenada

Guyana
India

Jamaica
Kenya

Kiribati
Lesotho

Malawi
Malaysia

Maldives
Malta

Mauritius
Mozambique

Namibia
Nauru

New Zealand
Nigeria

Pakistan
Papua New Guinea

Samoa
Seychelles

Sierra Leone
Singapore

Solomon Islands
South Africa

Sri Lanka
St Kitts and Nevis

St Lucia
St Vincent and the Grenadines

Swaziland
The Bahamas

The Gambia
Tonga

Trinidad and Tobago
Tuvalu

Uganda
United Kingdom

United Republic of Tanzania
Vanuatu

Zambia
Zimbabwe

[Doug Nye]

Ever heard of Eire.....?

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Ever heard of Eire.....?

Sorry Doug, I had been kind of updating the post as I read more. I think it is finally complete now.

[masterhit]

The information on the Commonwealth has been completed as it was previously lacking. Source is http://www.thecommonwealth.org, i.e. the British government's official page.

Thanks for the info on The Brit Awards, Mike. I wasn't aware of that. Reading that, I agree that the term is used loosely, like the Baseball "World" series. It's no wonder that we get confused!

[ensign14]

'Great Britain' is technically a geographical term for that big island off the top left of Europe (or, more accurately, the big island off the south-east of which one finds Europe ). It is a geographical term and does not include Anglesey, the Isle of Wight, &c.

'The British Isles' is lso a geographical term, and includes everything off the top left - including the Irish Republic.

And 'the Union Jack' is only properly so-called when flown from the jackstaff of a ship - at other times it is the Union Flag. If there is a difference between the 2, it is in the proportion - the Flag is twice as long as it is high, whereas the Jack may be 2/3 as high as it is long - I'm not sure. - vexillogical ensign14

[masterhit]

Interesting stuff about the Union Jack, ensign14! I'll update the post to add the British isles, which as you say is a geographical name for the the whole of Ireland, England Wales and Scotland., excluding The Isle of Man.

I am going to make a post to the british government website asking for clarification, particularly regarding Jersey and Guernsey (The Channel Islands) etc, i.e. are these Commonwealth islands? I have read conflicting information on this. If so I don't understand why they are not on the government's official website. Bear with me, if anyone has any more info, please let me know as it is absolutely fascinating! For example I never knew that example, Jersey and Guernsey were under German rule beteen 1941 and 1944.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by masterhit
Interesting stuff about the Union Jack, ensign14! I'll update the post to add the British isles, which as you say is a geographical name for the the whole of Ireland, England Wales and Scotland., excluding The Isle of Man.

I am going to make a post to the british government website asking for clarification, particularly regarding Jersey and Guernsey (The Channel Islands) etc, i.e. are these Commonwealth islands? I have read conflicting information on this. If so I don't understand why they are not on the government's official website. Bear with me, if anyone has any more info, please let me know as it is absolutely fascinating! For example I never knew that example, Jersey and Guernsey were under German rule beteen 1941 and 1944.

German military rule of all the Channel Islands, including Alderney, Sark, Herm and Jethou lasted from June 1940 until May 10th 1945. The islands were heavily fortified by the Germans (a lot of the fortifications still exist) and it was considered easier to isolate them than to try to invade.

The Channel Islands passed to Britain as part of the Dukedom of Normandy when William the Conqueror took the English throne by force in 1066. So, theoretically, the UK is actually subservient to Jersey and Guernsey ....

However, IIRC, they are not technically part of the UK - certainly they make their own laws, run their own economies, issue their own coinage and notes, have independent postal services which issue stamps and have elected parliaments (of a sort) which are independent of Westminster.

[Mila]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Why is Mansell-Piquet 87 lauded as one of "The Passes" of GP racing when DC's identical move on Rubens Barrichello in 2000, in arguably a more difficult era to pass in, is hardly remembered?

I tend to see your point. Stowe, it has to be said, was more of a corner for the bare-chested when Mansell snookered Piquet. in DC's favor, his commitment with RB came much later--closer to the apex of the corner--so I feel that his pass was much more difficult.

in all, for me, Mansell's move on Piquet is somewhat over-rated. yes, the WDC implications were there, and the drama was palpable, but Piquet, on worn tires, was a sitting duck.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Mila


I tend to see your point. Stowe, it has to be said, was more of a corner for the bare-chested when Mansell snookered Piquet. in DC's favor, his commitment with RB came much later--closer to the apex of the corner--so I feel that his pass was much more difficult.

in all, for me, Mansell's move on Piquet is somewhat over-rated. yes, the WDC implications were there, and the drama was palpable, but Piquet, on worn tires, was a sitting duck.

Maybe Piquet had learned from his rivalry with Jones not to push so hard that you don't make the finish. It was no secret that the drivers he most revered were Prost and Lauda, drivers who were highly tactically aware and hardly ever left the road - knowing when to push and when to take it easy. Piquet had also seen those two drivers wrap up the last two titles. It was Lauda's third. Perhaps he thought "these guys have got it right". I dunno. Just a thought. Certainly Piquet's tires were heavily worn, and unlike Mansell, he paid attention to his fuel gauge!

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


German military rule of all the Channel Islands, including Alderney, Sark, Herm and Jethou lasted from June 1940 until May 10th 1945. The islands were heavily fortified by the Germans (a lot of the fortifications still exist) and it was considered easier to isolate them than to try to invade.

The Channel Islands passed to Britain as part of the Dukedom of Normandy when William the Conqueror took the English throne by force in 1066. So, theoretically, the UK is actually subservient to Jersey and Guernsey ....

However, IIRC, they are not technically part of the UK - certainly they make their own laws, run their own economies, issue their own coinage and notes, have independent postal services which issue stamps and have elected parliaments (of a sort) which are independent of Westminster.

Thanks a lot for the information, Vitesse2! Such information really is fascinating!

[ensign14]

And Sark is the last bastion of feudality in Europe, held by the Marchioness of Sark under the Crown in its capacity as Duke of Normandy...

The Isle of Man is similar to the Channel Isles in that it is a Crown dependency but also has its own Parliament (the Tynwald). To get this back onto motor racing, a Manx judge is known as a Deemster (1900s voiturette?), which is not the same as the Demeester.

[Eric McLoughlin]

The Channel Islands are not part of the UK. Therefore, they are also not part of the European Union. The Isle of Man is also excluded from the UK but by concession, IS part of the EU (it only gets more confusing). If Britain does eventually adopt the Euro, the lasy bastion of Sterling may very well be the Channel Islands.

Ireland IS represented in the Union Flag - by the cross of St Patrick. It was incorporated into the flag in 1801 when Ireland was "annexed" into the Union following the failed United Irishmen rebellion of 1798 (which ironically was largely inspired by Ulster Protestants).

"Eire" is very much an unofficial title for the Republic of Ireland. The word is hardly ever referred to as such by the natives (of which I am one) - although they do show it on their postage stamps, probably because of the short form of lettering. The term "Eire" is an abbreviation of the Gaelic language name for the country - Eireann, as in Radio Telefis Eireann ( RTE, the national TV and Radio station).

[Doug Nye]

This particular thread, unexpectedly, has become interesting....

DCN

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


German military rule of all the Channel Islands, including Alderney, Sark, Herm and Jethou lasted from June 1940 until May 10th 1945. The islands were heavily fortified by the Germans (a lot of the fortifications still exist) and it was considered easier to isolate them than to try to invade.

The Channel Islands passed to Britain as part of the Dukedom of Normandy when William the Conqueror took the English throne by force in 1066. So, theoretically, the UK is actually subservient to Jersey and Guernsey ....

However, IIRC, they are not technically part of the UK - certainly they make their own laws, run their own economies, issue their own coinage and notes, have independent postal services which issue stamps and have elected parliaments (of a sort) which are independent of Westminster.

Note that the Channel Islands remained under German occupation until after VE day (8th May).

I grew up in Guernsey, and had a schoolmaster who refused to refer to other parts of the British Isles as anything other than 'the colonies'.

When Britain joined the European Union, The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man negotiated their own terms. As Eric points out, the Channel Islands have links with the EU but are not members of it.

The correct title for the ruler of Sark is 'Seigneur'.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
The Channel Islands are not part of the UK. Therefore, they are also not part of the European Union. The Isle of Man is also excluded from the UK but by concession, IS part of the EU (it only gets more confusing). If Britain does eventually adopt the Euro, the lasy bastion of Sterling may very well be the Channel Islands.

Ireland IS represented in the Union Flag - by the cross of St Patrick. It was incorporated into the flag in 1801 when Ireland was "annexed" into the Union following the failed United Irishmen rebellion of 1798 (which ironically was largely inspired by Ulster Protestants).

"Eire" is very much an unofficial title for the Republic of Ireland. The word is hardly ever referred to as such by the natives (of which I am one) - although they do show it on their postage stamps, probably because of the short form of lettering. The term "Eire" is an abbreviation of the Gaelic language name for the country - Eireann, as in Radio Telefis Eireann ( RTE, the national TV and Radio station).

Thanks Eric and Tim. This is both really getting confusing, and is getting more fascinating all the time! I think I need a lie down!

[Eric McLoughlin]

Right - to add a little more historical egg to the pudding, after "partition" in 1922, the Irish Free State and the newly created province of Northern Ireland both remained part of the British Commonwealth, The Free State as a "Dominion" (like Canada or Australia) and NI as part of the United Kingdom. However, no Free State politiicians would take the Oath of Alegiance to the Monarch (as was and still is required of Dominion MPs) . When World War 2 broke out in 1939, the Free State, although still a Commonwealth member, remained neutral and did not supply any official military assistance to the British Empire Forces. Having said that, thousands of men from the Free State did voluntarily sign up to serve in the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Right - to add a little more historical egg to the pudding, after "partition" in 1922, the Irish Free State and the newly created province of Northern Ireland both remained part of the British Commonwealth, The Free State as a "Dominion" (like Canada or Australia) and NI as part of the United Kingdom. However, no Free State politiicians would take the Oath of Alegiance to the Monarch (as was and still is required of Dominion MPs) . When World War 2 broke out in 1939, the Free State, although still a Commonwealth member, remained neutral and did not supply any official military assistance to the British Empire Forces. Having said that, thousands of men from the Free State did voluntarily sign up to serve in the British Army, RAF and Royal Navy.

Thanks again Eric! I so didn't know that! You can tell I never took history, can't ya?

I would like to point out officially at this stage, that I am not political. I have close relatives in the Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland. My mother is Protestant, my father was Catholic and lived in Northern Ireland before moving to Liverpool. I dislike politics, (being a skeptic, i will never vote as it would only encourage them) but this is interesting, as it is worth knowing so in future I can be less embarrassed by my lack of understanding

[Eric McLoughlin]

I was born and bred in Dublin, ostensibly a Catholic. However, I have always had a healthy disregard for organised religion and had dropped any pretence in Catholic observance by the time I was 18. Although my parents were Catholic, my grandfather was Church of Ireland (Anglican) so I always had a regard for that side of my family history. (My grandfather had changed his religion to Catholic in the 1920s to marry my grandmother. Mixed marriages were not allowed by the Catholic church in those days.) My great great grandfather served in the British Army in India at the end of the 19th century and my great grandmother was actually born in Rangoon, Burmah. As a result of this family background, I have always felt myself a bit of a hybrid, although I know by nature that I am very much Irish. Having said that, for the past sixteen years I have lived in Hampshire and am married to a very lovely English woman - and wouldn't want to live anywhere else now.

I can also take this opportunity to point out that Republic of Ireland citizens HATE the Republic being referred to as "Southern Ireland". The Republic is made up of twenty six counties, as opposed to Northern Ireland's six counties. In actual fact, the most northerly point on the island of Ireland (Malin Head) is actually in County Donegal, which is in the Irish Republic.

[LB]

Originally posted by 911
Finally, he wins at Magny Cours and breaks Stirling Moss' Grand Prix victories by a British driver.

grrr

Stewart 27
Clark 25

**ENGLISH** not British Moss had 16 i think

I think scotland has had 6 GP drivers ( Ireland, Clark, Stewart, Dumfries, Coulthard and McNish) 4 won races 3 in double figures and two won 5 championships between them

[Eric McLoughlin]

Don't forget Northern Ireland - also part of the UK (John Watson and Eddie Irvine, both GP winners).

[LB]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Don't forget Northern Ireland - also part of the UK (John Watson and Eddie Irvine, both GP winners).

yes but neither had more victories than Mansell at the time 911 was refering to.