11 replies to this topic

[marion5drsn]

Altho the V-10 had a very shaky start for reasons I have no opinion about, it appears that Maybach built the first successful engines, a company that had shaky starts on V-12s in WW-2. The V-10s were used in the first models of the German Leopard tanks. After the first F-1 engines were used the V-10s were off to a roaring start after incorporating the gas valve springs. Which gave them a huge advantage over other engines types that did not have the gas springs. The lack of Secondary Shake in the 72-degree models gave them an advantage over the 180-degree crankshaft models of the V-8s and still retained most of the good exhaust tuning characteristics of the 180-degree V-8 types.
The V-10s also had an advantage over V-12s in the overall length department.
After seeing the advertising advantage in the use of V-10s Dodge and Ford got on the bandwagon and in their trucks and Vipers were off to a roaring start. History will never be the same again. M.L. Anderson



V-10 FIRINGS PATTERNS AND CONROD LAYOUTS

Sketches are lost?

[Ray Bell]

The truth is, I guess, that it couldn't have been done without modern computers?

At least in passenger car use, I mean.

Ford was said to have built a 5-cyl engine around 1940 that gave better results than the 6s and 8s they were testing in their R & D department... but couldn't balance it.

Know anything about this?

[marion5drsn]

Computers were not yet much in use when Maybach designed the V-10. I did the same thing with a paper crankshaft and a paper Vee. It is dedication and sticking to the job and not giving up. Also staying away from people who say it can't be done. If there was a "secret" to the job it was putting in the proper amount of counterweights. M.L. Andeson

[Ray Bell]

Dare I ask how fast the tank engines turned?

And no knowledge of the Ford inline five?

[marion5drsn]

The Leopard tank engine of the 1960's
http://www.fas.org/m...ow/leopard1.htm

MTU MOTOREN-UND TURBINEN-UNION FRIEDRICHSHAFEN GMB
engine: MTU MB 838 Ca M500 multi-fuel, V-10, 4 valves/cyl, 820 hp (380 DIN) at 2200

marion5drsn The V-10 of MTU-MB 838 90-degree diesel of the Leo [...] 13-Feb-02 16:59 21

The V-10 of MTU-MB 838 90-degree diesel of the Leopard tank is listed back as far as 1969 in the Leopard tank. 2283 cubic inches, 1400 to 1500 Horsepower. And has also has the words Renk applied in one case, meaning unknown.
Friedrichshafen: Motoren- und Turbinen-Union Friedrichshafen GmbH, or MTU for short. (This is the same company as Maybach.)
Type MTU MB 838 Ca-M500, 10-cylinder, 37.4 litre, four-stroke, multi-fuel.
Power 830 hp at 2,200 rpm. Used in German Leopard 1 Tank and other military vehicles..
This engine is now revised to MTU MB 838 10V @ 90 degree 1400HP diesel 6.496"(165mm) x 6.890175mm) 2283.5 cubic inches (37.4 Liter)
This means that the Renault case for the invention of the V-10 engine is not valid. They may have been the first to use this configuration in F-1 but to state that Renault Invented the V-10 is not applicable. It is even possible that MTU-MB did not invent it. Which is also possible, as they don’t claim to even be the first to use this configuration of cylinder arrangement. So the mystery continues!
EDIT. A message confirms the engines are much the same. But MTU does not claim to have developed the V-10 engine and did not reveal who did. M.L. Anderson

Edit 02-18-2002 After much searching this is what I found out about the Porsche of 1939 ,only three seemed to have been built by V W. It does not state that the car had a V-10 engine but seems to have been adapted to a flat four cyl. The V-10 was designed but the war interferred.

It comprised a pair of Porsche Type 101/1 engines of V10 configuration, each rated at 320hp. This is from the description of a German Tiger Tank of W W-2. Confirming Karlcars statement of the Porsche's V-10 engine around 1940-45. The two original Porsche Typ 101/1 engines were replaced with proven Maybach HL 120 engines. Some appear to have been converted to the Elephant type antitank AFVs. Not a successful type. Just how many V-10s were produced is not known but it must not have been many as they were replaced by Mayback HL210 P30s or 230,P45s not a very successful engine were the V-10s. But as Karlcars states they made progress in the V-10 and they may have sown the seed for later engineers.

http://www.tiger-tan...re/history2.htm

http://www.mtu-fried...eset/f_prdi.htm


Engine model MB 838
No. of cylinders 10V
Cylinder arrangement 90°V
Bore/stroke mm 165 / 175
Max. output kW (mHP) 625 (850) 809 (1100) 1030 (1400)
Max. speed 1/min 2400



Edit DEC. 11 -2002 Notice that these engines were made a 90 degrees block angle! Also notice that 2400 rpm equals 2755 feet per minute piston speed.

[Bladrian]

The Leopard series are great tanks. One of the things that just has to be really useful is the fact that, in the field, you can swap the Leopard's complete engine and gearbox in rather less than half an hour ...... now why don't they design cars the same way?

[Ray Bell]

Volkswagen used to change engines in their beetles at Motor Shows... about ten to twelve minutes, I think it used to take the well-experienced mechanics.

[hawkeracer]

Here is a car (Formula Vee) that I designed in 1970, that was designed to use a very quick-disconnect system to remove the engine-gearbox and the rear suspension, very quickly.

We routinely had three engine-gearbox sets at races because of the restrictive FV rules that required no internal changes to gearboxes (or is the gearboxae?).

The quickest we did the change-out (and was ready to return to the track) was six minutes, 20 seconds.

We had Audi Racing covered, by thirty years….

http://community.web...ser/hawkeracer1

Ref: The Hawker Race Cars section.

[Ray Bell]

Well said, Marion...

I couldn't have put it better myself...

[marion5drsn]

One can find the most unpredictable stuff on the net if one just runs into it accidentally.

http://www.derbysulzers.com/usa.html

A new entry into who made the first successful V-10.
I will have to make some more searches into this! M.L. Anderson

[Henk]

Originally posted by marion5drsn in another (archived) V-10 thread

Previously it was my belief that Ford in the early forties was the V-10 forerunner, but no information could I find on this.

In 1943 Henry Ford filed a US patent for a 144-degree V-10 (aero) engine.

You can view/download the patent (#2434038 - 3 separate text-pages, 2 separate drawing sheets) as:

-- tiff-images
http://patft.uspto.g...8&RS=PN/2434038
[click on "images", then use sections]

-- pdf-files
http://l2.espacenet....gb&LG=en&DB=EPD
[click on requested patent number; then click on “biblio” for text]

[marion5drsn]

Henk: I think that solves the stories about the Ford V-10 & 5 Cylinders stories altho it was after the Sulzer engine listed at:

http://www.derbysulzers.com/usa.html

A 1936 2,000hp Busch-Sulzer demonstrator (?), ICRR 9201, powered by a two-stroke ten cylinder V engine . Maximum speed was 60mph, maximum tractive effort was 85,500lb, weight in working order was 154.5 tons.

M.L. Anderson