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#1 fines

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 01:12

I have just noticed a picture in Gordon White's excellent "Offenhauser" book, showing Jim McWithey in an IMCA event at the Minnesota State Fairground, driving a "#26 Bob Estes 270 Offy". Now the car looks very much like Estes' Watson/Phillips-built USAC champ car, although not in every detail (different roll-over bar and pick-up points for rear radius rods).

Now I know that sprint cars usually had a shorter wheelbase than champ cars (90" as opposed to 100", iirc), so that you couldn't run a sprint car in a Championship event without lengthening its chassis. There are several examples of when that was done, but there are also examples of champ cars shortened to sprint car size. Now my question: Was there ever a maximum size for sprint car wheelbases, or - wait a minute - I was just able to answer my own question, yet again! :lol: And that after typing all this stuff! : Well, just goes to show that formulating your questions does wonders to jog your brain, I guess :D

Okay, for the record: It appears there was no maximum wheelbase limit for sprint cars, as related in Johnny Rutherford's preface to "Roar from the Sixties" (he mentions the ex-Pat Clancy six-wheeler being shortened to 106" to compete in sprints).

Now, what to do now with this new thread??? :blush: Ignore?? Or maybe try to sample our collective knowledge about sprint cars? For starters, does anybody know how long the IMCA Sprint Car Championship was run? I have a list of champions going onto 1963, and White mentions a 1968 championship. Anyone able to complete my list?

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#2 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 10:21

Michael

Not just Indy cars appeared in sprints, here's a picture of a F5000 Lola from 1973 from the absolutely excellent Retro Rockets site:

Posted Image

I have no idea which Lola it is - the picture isn't good enough to tell much. The full page is here.

Allen

#3 Jim Thurman

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 22:50

Originally posted by fines
Now, what to do now with this new thread??? :blush: Ignore?? Or maybe try to sample our collective knowledge about sprint cars? For starters, does anybody know how long the IMCA Sprint Car Championship was run? I have a list of champions going onto 1963, and White mentions a 1968 championship. Anyone able to complete my list?


Michael,

I have a list of IMCA champions around here somewhere (I have a lead to it's location :D ). IMCA is still around, though it's form changed after it was purchased in the 70's. I believe the last of the original IMCA titles was 1976. IMCA also sanctioned Stock Cars (New Models as they called them) racing and Midgets (which they called Compact Sprints).

Keith Knaack bought the rights to the name and set about making IMCA into a short track racing organization that sanctioned tracks. The concept of the IMCA Modified short track class was introduced and by the late 80's, IMCA had grown from it's Iowa base to sanction short track racing at tracks in Arizona, California, Florida and even Canada. Various touring series and a national point system for the various short track classes of the "new" IMCA were contested. A Sprint Car series was re-started, but on a much more low-key, regional basis than in it's glory days.

IMCA was a major group during the 20's through the 50's. During the Depression era, drivers in IMCA likely made more money than their AAA counterparts (mainly because they got to race more often). But, if an AAA licensed driver ran in a non-AAA race, they risked a lifetime ban. It happened to a few, while others were eventually re-instated.

Several Indy drivers raced in IMCA during the 50's and 60's. Bobby Grim is probably the best known IMCA graduate.

A side note, Ernie Derr won 9 IMCA Stock Car titles, more than either Dale Earnhardt or Richard Petty, and still a record for touring Stock Car series...not that it ever gets reported that way.

Hope this wasn't too long or boring. I'll try to get that posted next week.


Jim Thurman

#4 Jim Thurman

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Posted 30 November 2002 - 23:03

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Michael

Not just Indy cars appeared in sprints, here's a picture of a F5000 Lola from 1973 from the absolutely excellent Retro Rockets site:

I have no idea which Lola it is - the picture isn't good enough to tell much. The full page is here.


Earl Kelley was a pilot for Pan-Am airlines. He also raced Sprint Cars. The Lola was for open competition events, it certainly wasn't legal for the weekly NASCAR sanctioned Super Modified races at the San Jose Speedway. In fact, it might have run only once.

San Jose Speedway once sanctioned a true "open competition" event where any type of car could compete so long as it met safety regulations. I recall one Lola F5000 car made the field. Perhaps this was Kelley.

Road racer Jerry Hansen won IMCA and USAC Sprint Car races at the Minnesota State Fairgrounds with his F5000 Lola. I have a picture of him standing by the car at the Sprint Car races. I'll scan that and send it off to you if you're interested Allen. Unfortunately, I don't believe I have any "action" shots of the car during Sprint Car competition.

Super Modified associations around the country varied as to whether they allowed rear engined cars or not. Some never allowed them, while most eventually banned them (same applies to Sprint Car groups...USAC banning rear engined cars after 1973, CRA after 1977 IIRC). CAMRA in the Northwest always seemed to have rear engined cars. Several former Indy roadsters (Watson style) wound up in Super Modified racing and even a few ex-Indy machines from the rear engined era wound up that way.

"Retro Rockets" is a great site for Super Modified racing. I added some info to one of the photos there. I have to contact Dan and revise it a bit based on what additional info I've uncovered.


Jim Thurman

#5 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 December 2002 - 13:21

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
... San Jose Speedway once sanctioned a true "open competition" event where any type of car could compete so long as it met safety regulations. I recall one Lola F5000 car made the field. Perhaps this was Kelley ...

Jim

Do you know the date of that meeting? Maybe I can dig up the program.

All the sprint and supermodifed stuff confuses this poor Englishman completely. Did all these types of racing overlap or did one evolve out of another? I can't really see how they relate to each other.

Allen

#6 Jim Thurman

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Posted 02 December 2002 - 23:22

IMCA Sprint Car Champions

1925 Fred Horey
1926 Fred Horey
1927 Sig Haugdahl
1928 Sig Haugdahl
1929 Sig Haugdahl
1930 Sig Haugdahl
1931 Sig Haugdahl
1932 Sig Haugdahl
1933 Gus Schrader
1934 Gus Schrader
1935 Gus Schrader
1936 Gus Schrader
1937 Gus Schrader
1938 Emory Collins
1939 Gus Schrader
1940 Gus Schrader
1941 Gus Schrader
1942-45 no racing, World War II
1946 Emory Collins
1947 Emory Collins
1948 Emory Collins
1949 Frank Luptow
1950 Frank Luptow
1951 Frank Luptow
1952 Deb Snyder
1953 Deb Snyder
1954 Bob Slater
1955 Bob Grim
1956 Bob Grim
1957 Bob Grim
1958 Bob Grim
1959 Pete Folse
1960 Pete Folse
1961 Pete Folse
1962 Johnny White
1963 Gordon Woolley
1964 Jerry Richert
1965 Jerry Richert
1966 Jerry Richert
1967 Karl Busson
1968 Jerry Richert
1969 Darl Harrison
1970 Jerry Blundy
1971 Jerry Blundy
1972 Ray Lee Goodwin
1973 Thad Dosher
1974 Bill Utz
1975 Bill Utz
1976 Ralph Parkinson Sr.

#7 Jim Thurman

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:20

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Jim

Do you know the date of that meeting? Maybe I can dig up the program.

All the sprint and supermodifed stuff confuses this poor Englishman completely. Did all these types of racing overlap or did one evolve out of another? I can't really see how they relate to each other.


I don't have the exact date of the San Jose truly open competition race, but I know I have a write-up in a regional racing paper. IIRC, 1973, I believe October. Let me check and I'll get you that date. Also, I'll check the reports and see what is mentioned about any Lolas. I do not recall any photos of any Lola though.

Actually, had I used the site link to Retro Rockets before posting in my excitement at seeing Earl Kelley mentioned here, I would have noticed that the photo of Earl in the Lola was from the 1973 Golden West Classic series, a post-season series of Super Modified/Sprint open competition races held at tracks in Central and Northern California. Something else for the to-do list. I'll see what races Kelley ran the Lola in.

I'll get to explanation for you next post.


Jim Thurman

#8 Buford

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 00:44

In 1979 and 1980 I ran Sprint Cars in the Midwest with NSCA. National Speedway Contest Association. They were based out of Iowa and my understanding was it was the group that previously had been IMCA.

#9 Jim Thurman

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 01:30

Originally posted by Allen Brown
All the sprint and supermodifed stuff confuses this poor Englishman completely. Did all these types of racing overlap or did one evolve out of another? I can't really see how they relate to each other.


Allen,

Now, to explain Super Modified racing...the more I explain, the more confusing it might get :) ...which is perfectly understandable.

Both types of racing had overlap, were concurrent and one part of one evolved into the other and yet both still exist :)

Basically, Super Modifieds evolved out of Stock Cars. As rules were relaxed mandating "stock" parts, the cars became known as Modifieds. Later, when rules were relaxed even more (and to add a cool name), they became Super Modifieds. and both still exist today, although Super Modified racing is far from it's 1960's heyday.

The evolution of Modifieds to Super Modifieds occurred in the late 1950's/early 1960's. Modifieds continued to exist (and still do), especially in the Northeast U.S. and a small pocket in the Carolinas. In fact, the first championship NASCAR ever sanctioned was for Modifieds. Modifieds themselves have evolved, primarily into a division between pavement and dirt (but, that's for another discussion and would only muddy the already cloudy waters here).

Super Modifieds likewise evolved from a driver running the same car on different track surfaces on consecutive nights to a split in ranks amongst pavement and dirt. Super Modified racing on pavement went through a period where it became a wide open affair, sort of like Group 7 Sports Cars on short paved ovals, with a similar amount of experimentation: Ex-Indy roadsters, rear engined cars (both home built and ex-Indy machines), 4WD, supercharging...virtually everything was tried. Pavement Super racing flourished in Central/Northern California, the Pacific Northwest (including the Western provinces of Canada) and around the Great Lakes (including some tracks in Ontario, Canada). There also was some pavement Super racing in Florida and in some places at invidual tracks in cities like Houston (Texas), Salt Lake City (Utah), Denver (Colorado) and even some isolated in the hot bed of Stock Car racing like Jackson (Mississippi) and Birmingham (Alabama). Some tracks did maintain more strict rules than others, which caused problems (see second paragraph below).

Many Super Modified associations would not allow Sprint Cars (generally much lighter) to race with them and vice versa. Though there were exceptions as some tracks did allow Sprints to run with Super Modifieds. And there were large money "open competition" races that combined Sprints and Super Modifieds.

But, as usual with U.S. short track racing, it was highly localized and many times the rules from one track to the next were disparate. This is bad enough in "Stock Cars", let alone something like Super Modifieds. The "open" races were often the only chance to get cars from different areas together and many promoters wouldn't even attempt it because of the headaches of trying to get so many different rules packages together (or because their track ran more rules than others).

Super Modified racing on pavement continues, though usually as a touring series. In the 70's, use of offset chassis became popular and now it is the standard. Pencil thin bodies with the engine sitting outside the frame rails for weight benefits. Super Modifieds rarely ran on tracks larger than 5/8 of a mile, though yearly events on the mile oval at Phoenix International Raceway have run for years (and they've also run the Pike's Peak International Raceway oval near Colorado Springs). At one point, speeds came within 20 or so mph of Champ Cars at Phoenix!

Super Modified racing on dirt was strong in the Plains states, Midwest, the Southwest and Central/Northern California with other pockets as well. Since there were a lot more dirt tracks than paved, I'm sure there was even more Super Modified racing on dirt than pavement. Dirt Super Modifieds primarily stayed in an upright configuration, much like Sprint Cars or Champ cars that ran on dirt. From the late 60's into the 80's, more and more of the tracks running Super Modifieds switched to Sprint Cars. Prior to that, Sprint Cars were much more a touring form of racing than something seen weekly at the local track. There weren't many short tracks that ran Sprints weekly until the late 70's. Of course, by that time, many of these dirt classes were Super Modifieds in name only as many had waived the rule allowing Sprints in with them. There were some hold-outs. To give you an idea, some Super Modified groups required steel box frame rail chassis construction versus tube frame chassis of varying metals allowed by Sprint Car groups. Box frame rail is along the lines of Stock Car chassis construction. Experimentation on dirt didn't last as long (though seeing the occasional Watson roadster on dirt was quite a shock), but was exciting and great competition. There is some Super Modified racing on dirt to this day, though not much and more often than not the class is run as a smaller cid engine stepping stone or as an economy type support class to Sprints.

And wings were a big issue. Some sanctioning bodies and tracks did not allow them, some did. To give you an idea, the use of Sprint type tails was also a major issue. Some Super Modified groups allowed them while others refused on the basis of keeping the appearances different (which if they had already allowed tube frame chassis was beyond me, but I digress).

And as I mentioned in an earlier post, some Sprint Car groups allowed rear engined cars for a period, but eventually legislated them out, as did most of the Super Modified groups.

And, of course, when I say pavement here in the states...that's asphalt, tarmac or macadam to your respective locations :)

I hope this was reasonably succint and not too confusing. This is an area of keen interest to me. It was a fascinating and unique period of short track racing, the fact that this same blueprint evolved differently from town to town and region to region, the experimentation and great variety of cars...with almost every car distinct, only adds to that. That and the fact that some of the first races I saw on TV and in person were Super Modified races as the class was dying out in Southern California probably sealed it for me. Many Super Mod grads from the 60's and early 70's went on to Indy: Joe Leonard, George Snider, Bill Vukovich, Dick Simon, Art Pollard, Jim Malloy, Tom Sneva and Sam Sessions just to name some of them. Sneva had likely never raced a front engined car until he moved to the Midwest!

Sorry about the length...didn't mean to write an essay :lol:, but it's rather complex.

Jim Thurman

#10 Jim Thurman

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 01:38

Originally posted by Buford
In 1979 and 1980 I ran Sprint Cars in the Midwest with NSCA. National Speedway Contest Association. They were based out of Iowa and my understanding was it was the group that previously had been IMCA.


I think you're right about that Buford. I'd have to dig around (and there's no guarantee I have details), but I believe after the rights to the name IMCA was sold to Keith Knaack, either the last guys that ran IMCA or someone related to the earlier IMCA operators formed NSCA.


Jim Thurman

#11 Buford

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 03:37

It was a nice elderly couple. Nicest people I ever met in the rough and tumble Sprint Car world.

#12 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 20:13

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Sorry about the length...didn't mean to write an essay :lol:, but it's rather complex.

Jim

Thanks very much for this. I am beginning to understand. I was under the impression that SuperModified and Sprint cars had a common ancestry so this was a big education for me.

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
... Prior to that, Sprint Cars were much more a touring form of racing than something seen weekly at the local track.

But I don't understand "touring" in this context? To us Brits, "touring" means what I think you call stock cars. :confused:

Allen

#13 Buford

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 20:28

I think he means Sprint Cars raced at different tracks all around the country on a "tour", not weekly at the same track over and over.

#14 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 December 2002 - 22:28

Oh yes - of course - silly me :blush:

#15 Jim Thurman

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 00:49

Allen, "touring" as in what Buford mentioned. A common language separated by an ocean :)

Buford, the elderly couple that ran the NSCA...the Sweeneys? (as in Al Sweeney)

Some odds and ends here...

fines, if you're interested in more on IMCA, former driver Buzz Rose did a book "Show Biz: History of IMCA Big Cars 1915-77" that came out about a year ago. I was disappointed there wasn't a better stats section, but thumbing through it, the text was thorough and the book also featured a wealth of pictures. Better still, no one really had attempted a book on the IMCA.

IMCA records prior to the mid-50's were destroyed in a fire. Led by Allan E. Brown, who has done a tremendous amount of work, racing historians have been re-constructing as much info as possible on pre-1955 IMCA races.

To correct myself, Ernie Derr won 12 IMCA Stock championships. Even a bigger gap to Earnhardt and Petty than I thought!

In listing Super Modified grads who got to Champ Car racing, I left out Billy Foster of British Columbia, Canada. Very promising driver who died in a Stock Car crash at Riverside in January 1967 and raced Indy Cars, Stock Cars and even raced big bore Sports Cars at Nassau and did well in all of them. Foster was beating Jackie Stewart and Graham Hill in the Champ Car exhibition race at Fuji until the car failed.

And for anyone interested in more on Super Modified racing, the following links:

A good site for links on all forms of racing (scroll down to Short Track for the Super Mod links) :
http://www.deepthrot...eel_links.shtml

There you'll find links to the following vintage Super Mod sites by scrolling, but I also included the urls...

Vintage Supermodifieds (this is Retro Rockets, the best site with many photos from around U.S.)
http://www.retrorockets.org/

Racing From The Past (dirt Super Modifieds of Kansas)
http://www.racercity...anpage/vincent/

Northwest Super Modifieds (CAMRA - Canadian American Modified Racing Association)
http://www.srv.net/~kc7esb/

Mike's Open Wheel Nostalgia Page (Oswego, New York Supers)
http://www.miket.freeservers.com/

Super Modifieds of the 70's (San Jose Speedway, San Jose, California)
http://hometown.aol....oo/oldsuprs.htm

List of San Jose champions and tracks around San Jose:
http://www.dcrr.net/sanjose.html


And for a look at current Super Modified racing (pavement) :

ISMA (Northeast U.S.)
http://hometown.aol....matour/car.html

SRL (run by IRL driver Davey Hamilton, competes in Western U.S.)
http://www.supermodifiedracing.com/



Jim Thurman

#16 Buford

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 02:57

I can't remember their names but I think they were in their late 60s or early 70s. They were very concerned when I flipped my car first time out I would not come back and try again. With USAC they would have thrown my ass out forever.

#17 Disco Stu

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 00:06

About the IMCA big cars, I've seen the term "big car" used to describe both sprint cars and champ cars. I've never really been sure which is correct. Did IMCA have a series equivalent to the AAA Champ Car series, or were sprint cars the highest level in IMCA?

#18 Jim Thurman

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 05:03

Originally posted by Disco Stu
About the IMCA big cars, I've seen the term "big car" used to describe both sprint cars and champ cars. I've never really been sure which is correct. Did IMCA have a series equivalent to the AAA Champ Car series, or were sprint cars the highest level in IMCA?


Sprints were the top level in IMCA. The term "Big Cars" has caused a lot of confusion. IMCA kept the name longer than most other organizations. Essentially, "Big Cars" were what we know as Sprints until sometime in the 50's. Exactly when the term "Sprint Cars" was first used is still subject to great debate amongst the most knowledgable of racing historians...and even they haven't come up with anything definitive as far as I'm aware!

This was subject of great debate on the Racing History group a while back.

In research I've done, I didn't see "Sprint Cars" used at all in the early 1950's. And I'm aware of "Big Cars" being the term for the Champ Cars at the same time.

Just to explain a little bit more for those reading the thread unfamiliar with it...IMCA - International Motor Contest Association - was a Midwest U.S. based sanctioning body that operated from the 1910's through 1976 (the name rights were sold and it continues to this day in a different form), racing "Big Cars" (Sprints), Compact Sprints (Midgets) and New Cars/Late Models (Stock Cars). During the Depression era, a driver likely made more money competing with IMCA. IMCA sanctioned the racing at dirt ovals at State and County Fairgrounds from the plains provinces of Canada down through Arkansas and Louisiana. The large grandstands at many of these State Fairgrounds were larger than just about race track outside of Indianapolis Motor Speedway. The fact that IMCA had far more races during the depression than the AAA Champ Cars did also helped. But, the risk of being banned for competing in an "outlaw" race and the biggest prize of all, the Indianapolis 500, kept many drivers in the AAA ranks. A few drivers did run afoul of the AAA for competing with IMCA and were banned, while others simply dropped out of IMCA and joined the AAA, getting an AAA license to try and get to Indy.


Jim Thurman