40 replies to this topic

[swaction]

Does anyone remember / have a copy of the quote Ayrton Senna made with regards to one of his Monte Carlo pole laps? The one where he is in "trance" of sorts?

Cheers
:yawn:

[bira]

You'll find it at the bottom of every post by RedFever, in his signature

"First I was just on pole, then by .5", then 1", and kept going. Suddenly I was nearly 2" seconds faster than anybody else. That's when I realized I was no longer driving the car consciously" Ayrton Senna, qual. Monaco 88

[AD]

I think there's even more than that. He mentions something like being in a tunnel for the whole length of the track

[Sniper]

I have a great mpeg of Senna's '91 pole lap from the onboard camera where he says " On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit, and you can go for this limit and you touch this limit and you think ok this is the limit. As soon as you touch this limit something happens and you......somebody can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well..............you can fly very high.

Not sure if thats the one you were looking for. Is a great clip, really on the edge with lot of opposite lock out of the station and swimming pool. Onboard cameras had a better view in those days. Love the very end too where it shows Prost shaking his head as Senna's laptime comes up.

[RedFever]

Bira was too fast for me as usual................I now what it feels to be like Rubens.......

[bira]

Originally posted by AD
I think there's even more than that. He mentions something like being in a tunnel for the whole length of the track

Well the quote is part of an interview.

Dennis David's website has a bit more:

"Monte Carlo, ’88, the last qualifying session. I was already on pole and I was going faster and faster. One lap after the other, quicker, and quicker, and quicker. I was at one stage just on pole, then by half a second, and then one second…and I kept going. Suddenly, I was nearly two seconds faster than anybody else, including my teammate with the same car. And I suddenly realized that I was no longer driving the car consciously."

"I was kind of driving it by instinct, only I was in a different dimension. It was like I was in a tunnel, not only the tunnel under the hotel, but the whole circuit for me was a tunnel. I was just going, going – more, and more, and more, and more. I was way over the limit, but still able to find even more. Then, suddenly, something just kicked me. I kind of woke up and I realized that I was in a different atmosphere than you normally are. Immediately my reaction was to back off, slow down. I drove slowly to the pits and I didn’t want to go out any more that day."

"It frightened me because I realized I was well beyond my conscious understanding. It happens rarely, but I keep these experiences very much alive in me because it is something that is important for self-preservation."

[swaction]

Thanks guys - just what I was looking for

Later
-M

[SuperSchumi]

Where could i see the video of that lap?

[François Bonaparte]

"I was kind of driving it by instinct, only I was in a different dimension. It was like I was in a tunnel, not only the tunnel under the hotel, but the whole circuit for me was a tunnel."

Tunnel vision and other states of mind are very common for top athletes. It's on they're cutting edge talent, to boldly go, where no conscious mind has gone before.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by SuperSchumi
Where could i see the video of that lap?

http://www.a-senna.c...lery/index.html

Enjoy it...

[Williams]

Comonly referred to as "The Zone", where the subconcious mind takes over an athlete's performance. There's lots of theories about it, but most probably it's a case where the athlete has trained so well that he or she can perform using mainly motor reflexes, which releases the burden on the concious mind and greatly speeds up reaction time.

[A3]

Originally posted by SuperSchumi
Where could i see the video of that lap?

http://www.a-senna.c...ery/mon1988.mpg

Oops, Gemini was faster...

[Dolph]

Well, I don't think i'm no Senna, but when I drive F1 simulations, and I know the track really well, I sometimes sort of wake up from thoughts and notice that I have done some 3-4 very fast laps without any mistakes. And ofcourse then I start srewing up again, when I think about that

I'm not kidding

[Peeko]

Uuuhhh, sorry but I'm pretty sure that mpg lap is from 1991, not 88. Look at the car in the tunnel, it has an airbox.

[Simioni]

There's a lot of confusion as for the year of that lap in the mpg, because when the car goes through the tunnel it shows a TV shot from Senna's Mp4-6 (91 model). But the lap is from 1990, notice the engine sound (V10 rather than 91's V12), and the design of the cockpit. There's no onboard of Senna's lap in 88 as onboard cameras would only come to feature regularly in TV broadcasts the following year.

[A3]

Originally posted by Peeko
Uuuhhh, sorry but I'm pretty sure that mpg lap is from 1991, not 88. Look at the car in the tunnel, it has an airbox.

Dunno, it just provide the link.;)

[Peeko]

Yeah, I always thought it was 1990 because of the windscreen and the winglets before the front tires (I don't think the 91 car had those winglets), and I believe the Brabhams had the cameras around Monaco in 89.

[Peeko]

Originally posted by A3


Dunno, it just provide the link.;)

And yer pretty good at it! I should know!

[bock16]

Never mind the wings, isn't that a number 1 on the front in the tunnel? In that case it can't be 1988.

Also, on the pit board at the end they are showing numbers like 21.0 and 20.5. I don't know to whom they refer but nobody went below 21.3 in qualifying until 1991.

[da Silva]

Originally posted by Simioni
There's a lot of confusion as for the year of that lap in the mpg, because when the car goes through the tunnel it shows a TV shot from Senna's Mp4-6 (91 model). But the lap is from 1990, notice the engine sound (V10 rather than 91's V12), and the design of the cockpit. There's no onboard of Senna's lap in 88 as onboard cameras would only come to feature regularly in TV broadcasts the following year.

The helmet from the in car looks like an -90. Seems that the visor has two metall fixing on each side but with his -91 helmet there is only one.
The mirrors on the MP4-6 seems to by sitting higher than the MP4-5b.
The engine sound is open for discussion but it sounds more like an V10 agree. Here´s an link to Farzads gallery with Senna in Phoenix -91 with V12.


The V12 engine have an carecaristic sound from low and mid rews with this "howl"
And in the qualifing -91 Prost wasn´t exactly an candidate for the poleposition so don´t understand why they zoomed in him. And it´s not an -89 car that´s for sure.

[da Silva]

Originally posted by Gemini


http://www.a-senna.c...lery/index.html

Enjoy it...

The link which includes the Silverstone battle with Senna holding of Prost and Schumacher is an real classic! I havn´t seen it in an while but it´s really superb driving from Senna. He is really playing with Prost. Prost Williams nearly flyes past him on the straight but Senna Brakes very late an retakes the position. It´s an joy to watch.
He is totaly fair but just tough against the others.

http://www.a-senna.c...ry/brit1993.mpg

[wawawa]

Originally posted by da Silva
He is really playing with Prost.

Vicious play. Prost clearly knew what Senna was capable of - that chop about 38 seconds into the clip was particularly nasty but it looks as if Prost had anticipated it. Anyway, a certain Mr. Schumacher had a front-row seat for the "Defensive Driving 101" lecture, eh?

[Dolph]

I thought Piquet's manouvre on Senna was smth to write home about

[Ray Bell]

I know it's a bit late, but the V12 came before the V10...

Hence the later car would not have the V10 sound but the V12 howl.

[doohanOK]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets shivers from reading those quotes from Ayrton....

regards,
doohanOK.

[pRy]

I think this quote is pure Monaco rather than Senna.

Monaco is unique on the F1 calendar as it is perhaps the only circuit that requires you to drive the same line, the same way, using the same number of gear changes, with the same level of gas and brakes, the same levels of steering wheel lock and turn, at the same corners, every single lap.

Why? Firstly Monaco is a street circuit lined by barriers. There is really only enough room for one car in most of the corners. Monaco requires the driver to stick to one line. They can't for example decide to take a certain corner different, because Monaco simply does not allow it. Sadly the circuit changes this year changed that a little. But it's one line. Also the circuit is very much stop.. start. The drivers rarely get the chance to be on the throttle for long before they are braking again. And when you are restricted to one racing line, you have to take each corner the same way each lap, and that means you will be braking the same way each lap and accelerating the same way each lap. And turning the wheel the same way each lap.

It's like if you imagine running around a maze. You can't really move much to the sides and when you get to corners you gotta slow down and turn in pretty much the same way each corner of the maze.

And back in the day of this quote Qualifying was very much out of the pits, lap lap lap lap lap... rather than recently where drivers only really did one flyer and then went back to the pits.

So what Senna is talking about is he simply slipped into a sub concious routine/rhythm where by he got so used to where he had to brake, how he had to turn the wheel, and when he had to apply throttle, that his mind simply became focussed on the job at hand and he got scared. His car was possibly perfectly setup, or just very stable, so his car was reacting just how he expected it to every lap, which allowed him to drive pretty much identical laps. He began to thread the needle perfectly.

But with Monaco, you always improve if you get into a rhythm, because the more into your routine you get, the more you cut away time by perhaps getting closer to certain walls, and getting on the gas sooner each lap simply because your brain is predicting what is required next and has learnt what is required next. Your brain is constantly learning.

It's like the hairpin... down the hill, brake, turn left, full lock, round the hairpin, straight up the wheels, gas, short spurt, brake for the down right hander, short spurt of gas, tight right hander, gas gas gas tunnel. Playing a good F1 sim will give you just the same experience. Anyone who has played Monaco and got into a rhythm will know what it feels like. You suddenly start driving the circuit and you don't really worry about the walls because you are following your racing line so closely and you are getting on the gas and brakes at the same times every single lap. Then suddenly you "wake up" and remember you are inches away from walls and before you know it, you're in the wall because you loose the rhythm.

Anyone can do it. If you have ever had to do a repetative task, like typing in a spread sheet, you always start off slow.. perhaps having to look at the sheet and stop typing... pretty soon you don't need to stop typing to look and by the end you might be so focussed on your job at hand that someone talking to you may have to wait till you finish before you look up at them because you were so much into your routine that you did not want to break away from it.

Senna may have had a gift of being able to focus and concentrate and slip into a sub concious rhythm, but I think Schumacher has the same gift. Consistant, fast, perfect laps, bang bang bang, one after the other. Both drivers have done that.

[JayWay]

Nonsense. If what you say is true, than the notion that Monaco is a drivers circuit is a myth.

I'd prefer to think that the fact that it is so tight (in combination with the fact that it minimizes the advantage of engine power) plays right into the concept that in F1, every driver is top notch. The difference between the good drivers and the truly brilliant drivers is not within the grasp of general terms. It's not within the range of the eye. It is all within tenths, thousandths of a second. Finding that very last bit of grip, time, speed, whatever. It is all subtle, nearly invisible, almost like magic, but it is there.

Hence, to you it looks like a one way street. The course is so tight, it looks so formulaic. However, there inlies the challenge. The true greats can find that nearly invisible patch of road. They can take what looks like nothing and make it something, make it a tenth, make it a thousandth, make it a pole lap.

In an article I posted a few months back discussing this topic with Martin Brundle and Harvey Postlethwaite. Here is a quote:

"Not surprisingly, Brundle gets a lot of his information about
driver's performances from the in-car cameras. "I watch the steering,"
he says. "I don't bother looking down the road. An Fl car is such a
direct-acting machine that you know every input at the steering wheel is
having an immediate reaction at the wheels.

....

Don`t waste time hunting
for minute differences of racing line, advises Palmer, or to pick who's
braking latest. Such differences are so small that you'll be hard
pressed to spot them. Far better, he believes, to listen to the sound of
the engines. "Concentrate on the engine note," he says, "particularly in
the middle third of a long corner, where the braking has finished and
the acceleration can't begin That's where the really great drivers
constantly play the throttle with subtle, sharp nudges..."

This is what I mean.

Also, there can never, in my opinion, be only one way do drive a course. Aside from the layout, there are many more factors. The car you drive determines just as much how you drive. The setup demands a different approach, no matter how subtle. I don't believe you can make changes to your car and drive the exact same way and expect the changes to fall in line with how they attack the corners. It is visa-versa. They adapt to the changes.

Even apart from changes, the very nature of the car you are driving demands a different approach. You can't drive through a cars weaknesses. You have to improvise. What do you do if a car is poor under braking? You certainly wouldn't lean on the brakes or even depend on entry (I suppose) to gain speed. What if your car is poor over the curbing? Do you attack the curbing like you may be used to? These adaptations can be subtle but they can make all the difference, I'd think.

Originally posted by pRy
I think this quote is pure Monaco rather than Senna.

Monaco is unique on the F1 calendar as it is perhaps the only circuit that requires you to drive the same line, the same way, using the same number of gear changes, with the same level of gas and brakes, the same levels of steering wheel lock and turn, at the same corners, every single lap.

Why? Firstly Monaco is a street circuit lined by barriers. There is really only enough room for one car in most of the corners. Monaco requires the driver to stick to one line. They can't for example decide to take a certain corner different, because Monaco simply does not allow it. Sadly the circuit changes this year changed that a little. But it's one line. Also the circuit is very much stop.. start. The drivers rarely get the chance to be on the throttle for long before they are braking again. And when you are restricted to one racing line, you have to take each corner the same way each lap, and that means you will be braking the same way each lap and accelerating the same way each lap. And turning the wheel the same way each lap.

It's like if you imagine running around a maze. You can't really move much to the sides and when you get to corners you gotta slow down and turn in pretty much the same way each corner of the maze.

And back in the day of this quote Qualifying was very much out of the pits, lap lap lap lap lap... rather than recently where drivers only really did one flyer and then went back to the pits.

So what Senna is talking about is he simply slipped into a sub concious routine/rhythm where by he got so used to where he had to brake, how he had to turn the wheel, and when he had to apply throttle, that his mind simply became focussed on the job at hand and he got scared. His car was possibly perfectly setup, or just very stable, so his car was reacting just how he expected it to every lap, which allowed him to drive pretty much identical laps. He began to thread the needle perfectly.

But with Monaco, you always improve if you get into a rhythm, because the more into your routine you get, the more you cut away time by perhaps getting closer to certain walls, and getting on the gas sooner each lap simply because your brain is predicting what is required next and has learnt what is required next. Your brain is constantly learning.

It's like the hairpin... down the hill, brake, turn left, full lock, round the hairpin, straight up the wheels, gas, short spurt, brake for the down right hander, short spurt of gas, tight right hander, gas gas gas tunnel. Playing a good F1 sim will give you just the same experience. Anyone who has played Monaco and got into a rhythm will know what it feels like. You suddenly start driving the circuit and you don't really worry about the walls because you are following your racing line so closely and you are getting on the gas and brakes at the same times every single lap. Then suddenly you "wake up" and remember you are inches away from walls and before you know it, you're in the wall because you loose the rhythm.

Anyone can do it. If you have ever had to do a repetative task, like typing in a spread sheet, you always start off slow.. perhaps having to look at the sheet and stop typing... pretty soon you don't need to stop typing to look and by the end you might be so focussed on your job at hand that someone talking to you may have to wait till you finish before you look up at them because you were so much into your routine that you did not want to break away from it.

Senna may have had a gift of being able to focus and concentrate and slip into a sub concious rhythm, but I think Schumacher has the same gift. Consistant, fast, perfect laps, bang bang bang, one after the other. Both drivers have done that.

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by Sniper
I have a great mpeg of Senna's '91 pole lap from the onboard camera where he says " On a given day, a given circumstance, you think you have a limit, and you can go for this limit and you touch this limit and you think ok this is the limit. As soon as you touch this limit something happens and you......somebody can go a little bit further. With your mind power, your determination, your instinct, and the experience as well..............you can fly very high.

Not sure if thats the one you were looking for. Is a great clip, really on the edge with lot of opposite lock out of the station and swimming pool. Onboard cameras had a better view in those days. Love the very end too where it shows Prost shaking his head as Senna's laptime comes up.

That video is awesome!
I´ve seen it a million times and it´s still great to watch

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by Dolph
Well, I don't think i'm no Senna, but when I drive F1 simulations, and I know the track really well, I sometimes sort of wake up from thoughts and notice that I have done some 3-4 very fast laps without any mistakes. And ofcourse then I start srewing up again, when I think about that

I'm not kidding

No worries Dolph! Exactly the same experience here

[glorius&victorius]

That's what I like about Senna. He knew he was good and he did spent much time thinking about what made him good, where his abilities to do things came from. He dug very deep into himself, to understand himself, why he could do things he did, where others failed. He connected all things in his life together, his upbringing, his family, his experiences to explain why he was where he was.

At some point he must have been confident he found the psychological, emotional and mental truth about himself and wasn't afraid to share it with the world. He was so sure of it that he wasn't afraid to be made the clown of the paddock for this.

I don't really know how much Nuno Cobra's teaching had to do with this. I am reading his book now "A Semente da Vitoria (N.Cobra)" where he explains his methods of mental, physical, emotional training. But Nuno also mentions many of the things that Senna has quoted.

Shame the book is not (yet) available in English.

[BorderReiver]

I don't think that anyone would argue that Ayrton Senna is responsible for giving us the majority of the truely GREAT qualifying laps.

For me the difference between Senna and Schumacher has always been, not so much in their actual talent, but in the way they view it.

Michael has always appeared to me to be very matter of fact about what he does. He'll hammer the rest of the grid into submission get out of the car, and do the metaphorical equivalent of shrugging his shoulders and saying "Well, what did you expect?". He strikes me as a man very at ease with himself. "I drive a racing car in a certain way that is faster than everyone else, that is all I need to know." would appear to be as far as his analysis of his talent goes. Schumacher is somehow beyond everyone else in the world at the moment. It is in his nature to accept this and not question why. Good for him I say. Michael knows his limit, and is happy that, for now at least, that limit is way way beyond anyone elses.

Senna on the other hand always struck me as something of the tortured genius. He always stood a little in awe of his own abilities. Never really able to come to terms with them and desparately trying to. For me this is the reason why Senna pushed himself up to and beyond his own limit so many times, to gain more of an understanding of himself. Added to this was the intensity of his own self analysis and analysis of his rivals. For me it is certain that he appreciated the intangibility of his talent a great deal more than Schumacher, even feared it. He was afraid that because he did not fully understand it, it would somehow slip away from him.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that the difference between the two men is not so much in what they can do in a car, but the way they view what they can do. Two very different psychies with two very similar limits.

Sometimes, with his constant self searching and wish to explore his own talent Senna would rise above his own limit though, and in the process would deliver something mind blowingly awesome.

[RSNS]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
I don't think that anyone would argue that Ayrton Senna is responsible for giving us the majority of the truely GREAT qualifying laps.

For me the difference between Senna and Schumacher has always been, not so much in their actual talent, but in the way they view it.

Michael has always appeared to me to be very matter of fact about what he does. He'll hammer the rest of the grid into submission get out of the car, and do the metaphorical equivalent of shrugging his shoulders and saying "Well, what did you expect?". He strikes me as a man very at ease with himself. "I drive a racing car in a certain way that is faster than everyone else, that is all I need to know." would appear to be as far as his analysis of his talent goes. Schumacher is somehow beyond everyone else in the world at the moment. It is in his nature to accept this and not question why. Good for him I say. Michael knows his limit, and is happy that, for now at least, that limit is way way beyond anyone elses.

Senna on the other hand always struck me as something of the tortured genius. He always stood a little in awe of his own abilities. Never really able to come to terms with them and desparately trying to. For me this is the reason why Senna pushed himself up to and beyond his own limit so many times, to gain more of an understanding of himself. Added to this was the intensity of his own self analysis and analysis of his rivals. For me it is certain that he appreciated the intangibility of his talent a great deal more than Schumacher, even feared it. He was afraid that because he did not fully understand it, it would somehow slip away from him.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that the difference between the two men is not so much in what they can do in a car, but the way they view what they can do. Two very different psychies with two very similar limits.

Sometimes, with his constant self searching and wish to explore his own talent Senna would rise above his own limit though, and in the process would deliver something mind blowingly awesome.

Very pertinent analyses. I think you are right. That is also, in part at least, why Senna tends to be seen as if in a mystic cloud of talent, quite unlike Schumacher.

RSNS

P.S.: The link to Senna's lap is apparentely gone bad. Could someone provide a functional one?

.

[AdrianM]

Originally posted by doohanOK
I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets shivers from reading those quotes from Ayrton....

regards,
doohanOK.

I feel the same way. In the great video A Star Named Ayrton Senna I think it is Patrick Faure who explains how Ayrton felt during those laps and described it to him

[Todd]

Originally posted by bira
"First I was just on pole, then by .5", then 1", and kept going. Suddenly I was nearly 2" seconds faster than anybody else. That's when I realized I was no longer driving the car consciously" Ayrton Senna, qual. Monaco 88

Another reason that single lap qualifying sucks...

[François Bonaparte]

single lap qualifying RULEZ

[Fastcar]

Its not magic or freaky or anything its just Senna actually realising how much depends on the sub-conscious like breathing and many hand movements, I mean if you spin a ball on your finger its done pretty much sub-consciously you just keep an eye on the sporadic gross movement the fine tuning is done by training the minds primative 'older' areas, Senna's experiences allowed him to realise that there is more under the surface of thought than is consciously apparent. Its a wonderful thing being able to identify how your mind works especially under pressure and under great stress its like Snooker in the practice room 100 break every time then for some reason in a tournament the control goes and the more stress the more the control moves to the wrong area of the Brain again the 'new' cognitive area. Learning to evaluate and control these factors is what makes great sportsman. At the end of the day its no surprise though hasn't anyone ever heard someone saying "ahh just don't think about it and you'll do it, your thinking too much !!"

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by RSNS


Very pertinent analyses. I think you are right. That is also, in part at least, why Senna tends to be seen as if in a mystic cloud of talent, quite unlike Schumacher.

RSNS

P.S.: The link to Senna's lap is apparentely gone bad. Could someone provide a functional one?

.

The difference between Senna and Schumacher with regard to them being seen as mystical figures:

Senna tell's the story as if he is an ordinary man, who suddenly transcends into a higher spirit, with superpowers....powers that even scare him....Just like all fictional superhero's, Hulk, Batman they are lonely and live with burden of their superpowers....

Schumacher on the other hand, tell's us that what we've just seen is "normal, nothing special...."
in other words: "please, don't get so excited you hysteric people...."


Which one will be more "mystical"?

[RSNS]

Glorious:

I'm not belittling Senna - or Schumacher, for that matter. Of course Senna's personnality had an aura about it, and his very complexity as a man - ruthless rival, anonimous benefactor - made him a 'special' character. Schumacher is a very matter of fact person - a little like Fangio (but oh, so different: Fangio was a kind, warm, person) - and he is quite 'ordinary' (except while driving!).

So I'd say Senna is both more 'mythical' and 'mystical'. The fact that he died prematurely just increased the legend.

I must say I am not a fan of either. I didn't like Senna's rows with Prost - although I can see he had a point - and I have some difficulty in swallowing Schumacher's accident with Villeneuve (all I can come with is a moment of blind rage, but that's a feeble excuse). But I have perhaps a little more sympathy with the man Senna. In terms of driving they are/were both so phenomenal that I can't possible tell which one is better...

And as I tend to consider F1 drivers solely in terms of skill - my last hero was Gilles Villeneuve - I rate them equaly.

RSNS

[jimm]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I know it's a bit late, but the V12 came before the V10...

Hence the later car would not have the V10 sound but the V12 howl.

This is wrong. 1988:v6 honda, 1989-90: V-10, 1991-92V12.

Honda developed the V12 when it looked like Ferrari's would be a challenge. It's failure pushed them (honda) out of the sport.

[Redneck Ferrari]

Originally posted by SuperSchumi
Where could i see the video of that lap?

My house, I've still got it.

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by glorius&victorius



The difference between Senna and Schumacher with regard to them being seen as mystical figures:

Senna tell's the story as if he is an ordinary man, who suddenly transcends into a higher spirit, with superpowers....powers that even scare him....Just like all fictional superhero's, Hulk, Batman they are lonely and live with burden of their superpowers....

Schumacher on the other hand, tell's us that what we've just seen is "normal, nothing special...."
in other words: "please, don't get so excited you hysteric people...."


Which one will be more "mystical"?

Schumacher = Superman

Senna = Batman