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Wilbur Shaw's Maserati


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#1 cabianca

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 19:36

Maserati 8CTF 3032 established an exceptional record at the Indianapolis 500. It won in 1939-40, was leading in 1941 when it broke a wire wheel, finished third in 46-47, raced in 49 and attempted to qualify in 1950. Does anyone know the whereabouts of this car between that last qualification attempt and when the Indianapolis Museum bought the car. In 1953, a Robert McManus was racing an 8CTF in SCCA racing, claiming it was 3032.

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#2 MoMurray

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 19:55

It is in my office...at least a beautiful painting of it hangs behind my desk. My younger brother painted it for me a few years ago as a xmas present and it is really quite good. Unfortunately, I am a moron where computers are concerned and so do not know how to post a digital picture of the painting. If someone can advise I would be happy to.

Mo.

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 04 December 2002 - 20:45

I have seen somewhere that McManus sold the car to Tony Hulman in 1954
I think it was entered by Maserati Race Cars at Indianapolis in 1951 or 1952

#4 cabianca

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 00:40

David,
Many thanks. Here's my history of 3032.

39-40-41 Shaw
46-47-48 Horne
49 Wallard
50 Vukovitch DNQ
51 #12 McDowell DNQ

After this point, I can't make a positive ID of 3032 at Indy

In 52, I have these unidentified (to me) Maseratis on the property. I may have notes I haven't put into my database yet, but I can't lay my hands on them.
#23 Forberg
#41 Holmes
#53 Barzda
Don't know whether these were 8CLTs or V8RIs.

Barzda was back in 53, so if McManus owned the car it couldn't be the same one. If you are correct that Hulman bought it as early as 54, there aren't that many years to fill in.

#5 Gerr

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Posted 05 December 2002 - 04:29

The Clymer yearbook for '49 has Wallard's car (#6) described as the '39 and '40 Shaw winner. It was entered by "Indianapolis Race Cars" (IRC) as it was for Vukovich in 1950 as #10.
IIRC, the entrant, IRC was owned by a Hulman, the daughter, I think. Seems odd that the Hulmans would sell the car and buy it back a year or so later.

McDowell made the race in '51 (not a DNQ) in a Maserati-Offy, #12, starting 26th, finishing 32nd.

I went to the IMS museum in 1991 and 3032 was on display, of course, but in the corner of the lower basement there was another Maserati. It was stripped of paint and was engineless.
Anyone know which car this may be?

#6 gmw

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Posted 07 December 2002 - 23:29

I was in Indianapolis this week for the SAE Motorsports Conference and the PRI show and took some time to visit the Speedway Museum. As of Thursday afternoon this week the Boyle Special is on display next to the streamlined W-196 Mercedes. It has the excellent finish and condition that you would expect in the Speedway Museum.

There were pictures on several web sites, including Atlas F1 i believe, of Michael Schumacher driving the car at the US GP. (Maseratti is now owned by Ferrari).

GMW

#7 Bladrian

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Posted 08 December 2002 - 06:09

Originally posted by MoMurray
It is in my office...at least a beautiful painting of it hangs behind my desk. My younger brother painted it for me a few years ago as a xmas present and it is really quite good. Unfortunately, I am a moron where computers are concerned and so do not know how to post a digital picture of the painting. If someone can advise I would be happy to.

Mo.


Somebody! Please! Advise the man ...... :love:

#8 fines

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Posted 08 December 2002 - 13:22

Originally posted by Gerr
IIRC, the entrant, IRC was owned by a Hulman, the daughter, I think. Seems odd that the Hulmans would sell the car and buy it back a year or so later.

I never heard of any involvement of the Hulmans in IRC - I think for once you're wrong here. I've seen IRC described as "a consortium of Indianapolis sportsmen", and I know that Bill Ansted and Roger Wolcott were members.

Originally posted by Gerr
I went to the IMS museum in 1991 and 3032 was on display, of course, but in the corner of the lower basement there was another Maserati. It was stripped of paint and was engineless.
Anyone know which car this may be?

Unfortunately not, but I sure would like to know! Any more info? Maybe even a pic?

#9 O Volante

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Posted 08 December 2002 - 14:06

Perhaps the ex-Scuderia Milano, Fred Agabashian etc. 8CL 3035 - not broken up, as I thought (and still think)?

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 08 December 2002 - 18:28

Do we even know what model Maserati this second Museum car is?

#11 Gerr

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Posted 09 December 2002 - 04:06

Hey fines, thanks, I'm often wrong (just ask my wife), but I seem to recall something about the Hulmans and IRC.


Dug up some pics I took of the stripped basement Maserati and I'll work out how to post them. It looks the same as 3032. The engine cover was newly made and hadn't any louvres or exhaust outlet cut in it at the time. There was maroon paint on the gas tank strap. The only difference to the Shaw car, that I noticed was the front brake drums had five evenly spaced cooling holes visible through the wheel spokes.

#12 Gerr

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Posted 09 December 2002 - 21:02

cabianca, the Jack Fox Indy book has a pic of a Maserati #43 captioned "1953 Roy Neuman". Fox's DNQ list has: No.: 43, Driver: Roy Neuman, Car: Maserati, Entrant: Robert J. McManus, Engine: Maserati (supercharged). The pic shows a light coloured Maserati with "QED special" lettered on the cowl and a single exhaust. Wasn't 3032 the only 8CTF with a single pipe?
R&T, June'86 has a salon on 3032and says that it was the only 8CTF that never had a Offy fitted. If so, that would mean McDowall's #12 in '51 could not have been 3032.

#13 David M. Kane

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Posted 11 December 2002 - 00:07

They did a demonstration run in this car at the USGP this year. It looked great and it sounded even greater!

#14 O Volante

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 12:56

Again, other commitments kept me away to answer earlier.

The troubles to determinate the individual fates of the 8CTFs in the early 1950s are caused, I would think, by - a - a general ignorance towards their racing activities besides the Indianapolis 500, starting at the time and leading later to the impression there were none, plus - b - one serious identification error concerning the McDowell car in 1951. In fact, the idea the cars appeared only once per year at Indy seems to have kept researchers away from a thorough look on the original sources for a long time. As a result, many publications only repeated the older believes time and again, thereby giving them even more credibility. The orthodoxy was left without a serious challenge, and so the identification error remained almost undetected, only to blurr the picture to this very day.

Before I will set out what I have found out, a short note on my sources. Due to my location outside the US, I could not do what I find necessary - to go back to the contemporay material in the magazines. Instead I relied on serious secondary sources: serious - as opposed to the casual features on the individual cars, usually with a number of modern pictures etc. etc.

Among the serious stuff, including the well known books on Maseratis, the most detailled piece on the individual history of the 8CTF Maseratis, and their close relatives 8CL and 8CLT-50 is still Richard Crump's article "Maserati's Seven Eights" in Veteran & Vintage, September 1975. The "seven eights" are, of course, Maserati's seven later 3.0 s/c cars - 8CTFs 3030, 3031, 3032, 8CLs 3034, 3035 plus 8CLT-50 3036 and 3037.

Of these five were raced at Indianapolis, the three 8CTF and the two 8CL, and there were other Maser at the Brickyard: these Indy Maseratis were featured by Denis Jenkinson (MotorSport, April 1968), Martyn Flower (Classic & Sportscar, May 1986) and at least one more author (Veteran & Vintage, June 1972 - I have only a note that there was an article on the topic ...) To seperate the 3.0 s/c from other Maseratis at Indy, Denis Jenkinson's article on the V8RI in MotorSport, January - March 1990, was also useful.

Another serious source were the more modern Indy 500 histories, including the official photos of the starters, and equally important, also of non-qualifiers! Phil Harm's result sheets, as published in the net, were also used. Finally three more recent features on famous Indy drivers by L Spencer Riggs in Automobile Quarterly helped a lot: on Henry Banks (35,4 - 1996), Ted Horn (39,4 - 1999) and Russ Snowberger (41,2 - 2001).

More a little later ...

#15 O Volante

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 15:14

That something may be wrong with the identification of McDowell's car occured to me for the first time when I saw the pictures in the Banks article. Here one could see how the 8CL - which has to be considered as well to understand the story of the 8CTFs - was looking when an Offy was installed for the 1950 Indy 500. Furthermore, it was specified in the article that the engine was a 3.0 s/c - a fact I was not sure about before. Comparison with the well-known pictures of McDowell's 1951 mount convinced me on the spot that McDowell must have had the 8CL 3035 - the whole appearance, including a "headrest" matched Banks' car from the year before.

However, this conclusion did not fit together with the ownership background of the 8CTFs and the 8CL 3035 as it was - and is - generally given. When I got hold of the Phil Harms results, which added even more entries of the 3.0 s/c Maseratis at Indy to the telly than I had known before, my troubles were rather increased ... Which "Special" was which chassis? The rescue finally came in form of the Snowberger article. The man is well known as the driver of one 8CTF at Indy in 1947, Richard Cott's 3031. What I did not know was that he later joined the enterprise of his entrant, to mix racing his cars with work as his chief engineer. According to the article, it was Snowberger who suggested to add a second 8CTF to the team's 3031, and in order to run it also at Pikes Peak, to equip it with a 4.5 u/c Offy engine! That's how 3030 came into the possession of Cott, and how it got an Offy engine in late 1948/early 1949.

At the Indy 500 in 1949, the two Cott cars 8CTF 3030 (with 4.5 u/c Offy) and 8CTF 3031 (with 3.0 s/c Maserati) met two other 3.0 s/c Maseratis: these were 8CTF 3032 and 8CL 3035, both with their original engines, both entered and owned by a syndicate called "Indianapolis Race Cars": 3032, of course, had in the years before been owned by Cotton Henning and had been raced by Ted Horn for him, only to be sold after the tragic death of both men in late 1948. 3035 had been purchased in Europe from Scuderia Milano, who had raced the car, among other occasions, at Indy in 1946. (Just to make it plain clear - the other 8CL, 3034 was at that time in the Argentine, only to come back to the US in the 1970s for a restauration, and recently to be added to the collection of a certain Mr. Walton. Like the two 8CLT-50s, which were entered for the 1950 Indy 500, but DNA, it's not part of this story of the later years of the 3.0 s/c Masers in the US ...)

Because this ownership situation in 1949 is undisputed, and we knew from the Snowberger article that the first 8CTF-Offy was Cott's 3030 with an unsupercharged engine, it's now possible to put the known facts for 1950 together: Of the IRC cars, Vukovich was entered with 3032, while Banks had 8CL 3035, now with the 3.0 s/c Offy engine. Spider Webb had the Cott Maserati-Offy, with the 4.5 u/c Offy engine; the other car, still Maserati powered, was with Danny Kladis.

Assuming McDowell had the 8CL in 1951, the reported change in ownership of at least one of the two pairs of cars that took place in late 1950/early 1951 simply meant that another (?) syndicate, "Maserati Race Cars" took over the two IRC cars, and Joe Barzda bought, or loaned the two Cott cars. All the four cars were apparently entered: 8CL 3035, with 3.0 s/c Offy, for McDowell, 8CTF 3032, with originally Maserati power without driver, for MRC. Bud Sennett crashed 8CL 3031, with Maserati engine, during qualifying, while his team boss Joe Barzda was a DNQ after he spun off during qualifying with the 4.5 u/c Offy 8CTF 3030.

For 1952 I have the 3.0 s/c Offy 8CL 3035 with Jackie Holmes, 8CTF 3032 apparently not entered, and both the Barzda cars now with 4.5 u/c Offies. In 1953, 3032 was possibly back, now driven by Roy Neumann, and entered by Robert McManus. Other sources claim, however, that Neumann's mount was the 8CL, back with an s/c Maserati engine! The only sure thing seems to be that one of the ex-IRC, ex-MRC cars took a break! The Brazda cars were both back in 1953, one (3031) apparently again with a Maserati engine. The ownership of the cars in that period has still to be determinated. Definitely clear, we learn from Richard Crump, is that the two ex-IRC, ex-MRC cars (3032 and 3035) were sold together by McManus to Tony Hulman in December 1954. Less clear is the question of ownership regarding the cars entered by Barzda: at least 3030 (with 4.5 u/c Offy), which was raced at the Indy 500 in 1953 by Spider Webb, I would think, has later again been owned by Richard Cott's team - for instance, the Cott-Sewell entered "Maserati-Offy" driven by Al Rogers at Pikes Peak in 1954 to 8th seems to have been this car ...

With this mention of Pikes Peak, we are (again) approaching the point of extra- Indy racing activities of the 8CTFs and the 8CL in the US: Apart from Pikes Peak, and a few appearances of Brazda also in other ChampCar races (see Phil Harms' results!), I would like to draw special attention to the May 1952 SCCA Bridgehampton and September 1952 SCCA Watkins Glen races, where Brete Hannaway seems to have been entered with 3032 - for a nice shot of the car see Dufechaux' Glen history. I have the "ex-Shaw" car also mentioned as 5th in an SCCA race at Chanute Air Force base, in June 1953, driver not mentioned... And looking through the contemporary reports on the all-comers or single-seater races run before or after the featured Sports-car events at the SCCA meeting, will surely yield more ... what about Thompson and other Eastern circuits? Who has detailled results of the Seneca Cup races at Watkins Glen in the mid and later 1950s?

And finally we come to the fate of the Maser found in the basement of the Indy museum: According to Crump, the Hulman's collection did not have the money to restore both cars purchased in 1954. Therefore, they concentrated on 3032, anyway the more successful and more original car (never had an Offy!!!), which lives since then a glorious live on display and demonstration at the museum and historical meeting. Poor 3035, on the contrary, was sold again, to a "man from South Bend, Indiana", who installed a Chevy engine and raced in Sports-car races. (Who, where, when? ... what do the contemporary sources say?) Later, Hulman purchased it again, only to do nothing with it. In 1986, I seem to remember, Denis Jenkinson reported it was finally broken up ... but if it is still there ....

Hope these info helps a little!

#16 fines

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Posted 15 December 2002 - 16:24

I have extricated all appearances of Maserati-chassised cars in Indycar racing from my (as of yet very incomplete) database. Hope it helps!

Date   Event			   #  Car Name (Entrant)				Engine		  SP   FP   Driver						Laps  Time/Speed/Out	   Points

[u]1930[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   26  Maserati						  Maserati		28   37   Baconin Borzachini/Jimmy Rossi   7  Magneto

5/30   Indianapolis 500   42  Maserati (Cucinotta)			  Maserati		30   12   Letterio Cucinotta			 185  Flagged

[u]1936[/u]

10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 12  Maserati						  Maserati		30	6   Frederick McEvoy/Carlo Trossi   75  4:57'24.82"   60.518	 50

10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 24  Maserati (Étancelin)			  Maserati		32	9   Philippe Étancelin			  75  4:59'43.11"   60.182	 60

10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 29  Maserati (Raph)				   Maserati		16   42   Georges Raph					 9  Disqualified (push start)

10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 48  Maserati (Rayson)				 Maserati		36   18   Teddy Rayson					74  Flagged

[u]1937[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   15  Topping						   Maserati Sc	 31   31   Babe Stapp					  36  Clutch

7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	  1  Maserati (Martin)				 Maserati		16   15   Mauri Rose					  85  Axle, universal joint

7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	 21  Topping						   Maserati		11   27   Babe Stapp					   8  Piston

7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	 45  Maserati (Fiermonte)			  Maserati		24	9   Wilbur Shaw					 90  4:04'03.42"   73.753	135

[u]1938[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   27  IBEW (Boyle)					  Maserati Sc	  9   13   Mauri Rose					 165  Supercharger

5/30   Indianapolis 500   49  Kirkham Maserati (Cheesman)	   Maserati Sc	 Did not appear

[u]1939[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500	2  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  3	1   Wilbur Shaw					200  4:20'47.49"  115.035  1,000

5/30   Indianapolis 500   28  Deacon Litz					   Maserati		DNS	   George Robson					   Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   39  Cheesman Maserati				 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 Crankshaft

5/30   Indianapolis 500   53  Maserati (Wharton)				Maserati Sc	 31   33   Deacon Litz					  7  Valve trouble

9/10   Syracuse 100	   28  Litz							  Maserati		DNS	   Deacon Litz						 DNS, too slow

[u]1940[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500	1  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  2	1   Wilbur Shaw					200  4:22'31.17"  114.277  1,000

5/30   Indianapolis 500   22  Lucy O'Reilly Schell			  Maserati Sc	 DNS	   René Dreyfus						DNS, too slow

5/30   Indianapolis 500   29  Maserati (Riganti)				Maserati Sc	 24   33   Raul Riganti					24  Wrecked SE

5/30   Indianapolis 500   39  Cheesman Maserati				 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   49  Lucy O'Reilly Schell			  Maserati Sc	 31   10   René LeBegue/René Dreyfus	  192  Flagged - rain		   91

[u]1941[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500	2  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  3   18   Wilbur Shaw					151  Wrecked SW

5/30   Indianapolis 500	3  Elgin Piston Pin (Moore)		  Maserati Sc	  1   26   Mauri Rose					  60  Spark plugs

5/30   Indianapolis 500   17  Elgin Piston Pin				  Maserati Sc	 30   15   Duke Nalon					 173  Flagged

[u]1946[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   18  Elgin Piston Pin (Brisko)		 Maserati Sc	 11	4   Emil Andres					200  4:35'28.65"  108.902	600

5/30   Indianapolis 500   25  Jim Hussey (Cott)				 Maserati Sc	 10   12   Russ Snowberger/Duke Nalon	 134  Differential trouble	 39

5/30   Indianapolis 500   29  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  7	3   Ted Horn					   200  4:33'19.60"  109.819	700

5/30   Indianapolis 500   34  Maserati (Marion)				 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Tom Hinnershitz					 Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   36  Maserati Schell				   Maserati		DNS	   Louis Gérard						Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   46  Maserati (Schell)				 Maserati		DNS	   Harry Schell						Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   52  Maserati (Filippini)			  Maserati Sc	 28	7   Gigi Villoresi				 200  4:57'40.23"  100.783	300

5/30   Indianapolis 500   53  Maserati (Filippini)			  Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Achille Varzi					   Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   54  Maserati (Filippini)			  Maserati Sc	 32   22   Duke Nalon					  45  Universal joint

5/30   Indianapolis 500   68  Maserati (Brubaker)			   Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

[u]1947[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500	1  Bennett Brothers (Henning)		Maserati Sc	  1	3   Ted Horn					   200  4:20'52.55"  114.997	700

5/30   Indianapolis 500   25  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	  6   19   Russ Snowberger				 74  Oil pump

5/30   Indianapolis 500   58  Kennedy Tank (Anderson)		   Offenhauser	  7   11   Les Anderson				   131  Flagged				 100

5/30   Indianapolis 500   86  Jack Maurer (Brubaker)			Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

6/8	Milwaukee 100	  58  Kennedy Tank (Anderson)		   Offenhauser	  2   11   Les Anderson					79  Out					  20

8/24   Pikes Peak		 25  Maserati (Cott)				   Maserati		 ?	1   Louis Unser					  1  16'34.77"	 44.947	200

[u]1948[/u]

5/31   Indianapolis 500	1  Bennett Brothers (Henning)		Maserati Sc	  5	4   Ted Horn					   200  4:14'30.47"  117.844	600

5/31   Indianapolis 500   14  Maserati (Brubaker)			   Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

5/31   Indianapolis 500   25  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	 25   32   Paul Russo					   7  Oil leak

5/31   Indianapolis 500   65  Lynch Motors (Brisko)			 Maserati Sc	 26   33   Harry McQuinn					1  Supercharger

5/31   Indianapolis 500   69  Werner-Grancor (Granatelli)	   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Walt Brown						  Did not qualify

6/6	Milwaukee 100	  69  Werher-Grancor (Granatelli)	   Offenhauser	  6   18   Paul Russo					   2  Throttle

* photograph exists showing #69 at Indy was a KK2000/Offy with Parsons at the wheel!!! Granatelli had three more entries...

9/6	Pikes Peak		 25  Maserati-Offy (Cott)			  Offenhauser	  2	7   Louis Unser					  1  18'10.45"	 41.003	 60

[u]1949[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500	6  Maserati (IRC)					Maserati Sc	 20   23   Lee Wallard					 55  Gear trouble

5/30   Indianapolis 500   15  Maserati (IRC)					Maserati Sc	 30   27   Freddie Agabashian			  38  Overheated

5/30   Indianapolis 500   35  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Sam Hanks/Henry Banks			   DNS, too slow

5/30   Indianapolis 500   79  Brubaker						  Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

9/5	Pikes Peak		 35  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati		 ?	2   Louis Unser					  1  16'06.22"	 46.275	160

[u]1950[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   10  IRC							   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Bill Vukovich					   Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   12  IRC							   Offenhauser Sc  21   25   Henry Banks/Freddie Agabashian 112  Supercharger oil line

5/30   Indianapolis 500   21  Fadely-Anderson (Cott)			Offenhauser	 14   20   Spider Webb					126  Flagged - rain

5/30   Indianapolis 500   39  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Danny Kladis						Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   46  Maserati						  Maserati Sc	 DNA	   Giuseppe Farina

5/30   Indianapolis 500   48  Maserati						  Maserati Sc	 DNA	   Franco Rol

5/30   Indianapolis 500   84  George Hoster, Inc (Shreve)	   Maserati		DNS	   Mike Burch						  Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   85  Coast Grain (Weinberg)			Offenhauser	 DNS	   Jim Rigsby/Manuel Ayulo			 DNS, too slow

[u]1951[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   12  W & J (IRC)					   Offenhauser	 26   32   Johnny McDowell				 15  Broken fuel tank

5/30   Indianapolis 500   49  Barzda							Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Spun qualifying

5/30   Indianapolis 500   51  Auto Accessories (Barzda)		 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Bud Sennett						 Wrecked qualifying SW

5/30   Indianapolis 500   55  Maserati (IRC)					Maserati Sc	 DNA	   -

6/24   Langhorne 100	  49  Barzda							Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  DNS, too slow

7/4	Darlington		 49  California Speed Shop (Barzda)	?			   DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Engine practice

[u]1952[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   23  Fadely & Anderson (Cott)		  Offenhauser	 DNS	   Carl Forberg						Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   41  Speed							 Offenhauser Sc  DNS	   Jackie Holmes					   Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   53  Calif. Speed Equipment (Barzda)   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Did not qualify

7/27   Williams Grove	 52  Barzda							Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  DNS, too slow

8/30   Detroit 100		23  R A Cott						  Offenhauser	 DNS	   Carl Forberg						Spun qualifying

9/6	Syracuse 100	   53  Calif. Speed Equipment (Barzda)   Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Did not qualify

[u]1953[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   43  Maserati (McManus)				Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Roy Neuman						  Did not qualify

5/30   Indianapolis 500   69  California Speed & Sport (Barzda) Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  DNS, too slow

5/30   Indianapolis 500   89  Fadley-Anderson (Cott)			Offenhauser	 DNS	   Spider Webb						 Did not qualify

[u]1954[/u]

9/6	Pikes Peak		 91  Cott-Jewell					   Offenhauser	  9	8   Al Rogers						1  15'21.9"	  48.500	 50

[u]1957[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   72  (Marguerite) Morgan Engineering   Maserati		DNS	   Danny Kladis						DNS, too slow

6/2	Langhorne 100	  72  (Marguerite) Morgan Engineering   Maserati		DNS	   Charlie Musselman				   Spun qualifying

6/9	Milwaukee 100	  72  (Marguerite) Morgan Engineering   Maserati		DNS	   Danny Kladis						Wrecked practice T3

6/29   Monza 500		   8  Maserati						  Maserati		DNS	   Jean Behra						  Did not start

[u]1958[/u]

6/29   Monza 500		  10  Eldorado-Italia				   Maserati		 7   11   Stirling Moss				  164  Wrecked turn 3

[u]1959[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   12  (Scuderia) El Dorado Italia	   Maserati		DNS	   Ralph Liguori					   DNS, too slow


#17 fines

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Posted 19 December 2002 - 23:28

Add to the above the following:

[u]1946[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   74  Maserati (Schell)				 Maserati		DNS	   ?								   Did not qualify/appear?

[u]1949[/u]

5/30   Indianapolis 500   21  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Offenhauser	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 DNS, too slow

9/5	Pikes Peak		 21  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Offenhauser	  ?	9   Russ Snowberger				  1  17'26.28"	 42.734	 40

9/11   Detroit 100		21  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Offenhauser	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 DNS, too slow

Taking another approach, I looked up the entry engine info from 1950 to 1953 (I don't have earlier info, somebody chime in?). It shows:

1950
#10 - 8 cyl. - 2.718 * 4 in - 179.2 ci
#12 - 4 cyl. - 3.906 * 3.75 in - 179.7 ci
#21 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.625 in - 270 ci
#39 - 8 cyl. - 2.667 * 3.937 in - 179 ci
#46 - 8 cyl. - 3.0625 * 3.0625 in - 182.032 ci
#48 - 8 cyl. - 3.0625 * 3.0625 in - 182.032 ci
#84 - 8 cyl. - 3.3 * 4 in - 273.59 ci
#85 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.625 in - 270 ci
1951
#12 - 4 cyl. - 3.906 * 3.75 in - 179.7 ci
#49 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.625 in - 270 ci
#51 - 8 cyl. - 2.729 * 3.937 in - 180.79 ci
#55 - 8 cyl. - 2.718 * 4 in - 179.2 ci
1952
#23 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.5 in - 263 ci
#41 - 4 cyl. - 3.906 * 3.75 in - 180 ci
#53 - 8 cyl. - 2.729 * 3.937 in - 180 ci
1953
#43 - 8 cyl. - 2.72 * 4 in - 183 ci
#69 - 8 cyl. - 2.719 * 3.9 in - 180.3 ci
#89 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.5 in - 263 ci

... which can be grouped as follows:

1950 - #10 - 8 cyl. - 2.718 * 4 in - 179.2 ci - Vukovich
1951 - #55 - 8 cyl. - 2.718 * 4 in - 179.2 ci - DNA
1953 - #43 - 8 cyl. - 2.72 * 4 in - 183 ci - Neuman

This has to be '3032', still with its original engine.

1950 - #12 - 4 cyl. - 3.906 * 3.75 in - 179.7 ci - Banks/Agabashian
1951 - #12 - 4 cyl. - 3.906 * 3.75 in - 179.7 ci - McDowell
1952 - #41 - 4 cyl. - 3.906 * 3.75 in - 180 ci - Holmes

According to the 1950 Indy yearbook, the ex-Villoresi car, i.e. '3035'. In March 1950, IRC (Inc.) bought the first s/c "big" Offy from Meyer-Drake, s/n '105B', according to Gordon White. It was the only Maserati to be fitted with a s/c Offy.

1950 - #21 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.625 in - 270 ci - Webb
1952 - #23 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.5 in - 263 ci - Forberg
1953 - #89 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.5 in - 263 ci - Webb

According to the 1950 Indy yearbook, the ex-Rose car, i.e. '3031' ('3030' ?). It was acquired by Richard Cott in 1946. Cott also bought s/n '72', apparently the first Offy 270 built by Meyer-Drake, in January 1947 which, it seems, was initially fitted to an old front-drive Miller-Ford chassis. In 1948 the engine was dropped into the Maserati chassis, to be driven by Louis Unser at Pikes Peak (7th). The following year, Henry Banks and Russ Snowberger used the hybrid.

1951 - #49 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.625 in - 270 ci - Barzda

Possibly '3031' on loan from Cott, or else the ex-Weinberg car???

1950 - #39 - 8 cyl. - 2.667 * 3.937 in - 179 ci - Kladis
1951 - #51 - 8 cyl. - 2.729 * 3.937 in - 180.79 ci - Sennett
1952 - #53 - 8 cyl. - 2.729 * 3.937 in - 180 ci - Barzda
1953 - #69 - 8 cyl. - 2.719 * 3.9 in - 180.3 ci - Barzda

The other Cott car, '3030' ('3031' ?). Still with the 8CTF engine, it appears to have been the ex-Brisko car (Nalon, Andres, McQuinn).

1950 - #46 - 8 cyl. - 3.0625 * 3.0625 in - 182.032 ci - Farina DNA
1950 - #48 - 8 cyl. - 3.0625 * 3.0625 in - 182.032 ci - Rol DNA

The two 8CLs that DNA in 1950.

1950 - #84 - 8 cyl. - 3.3 * 4 in - 273.59 ci - Burch

Clearly a V8RI, with the supercharger removed. Possibly the ex-Brubaker car?

1950 - #85 - 4 cyl. - 4.3125 * 4.625 in - 270 ci - Rigsby/Ayulo

Another V8RI, fitted with an Offy??? Possibly the ex-Anderson car?

#18 cabianca

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 06:12

Fines, this is an impressive piece of sleuthing. Some notes:

1950 #85 V8Ri w/Offy Chassis 4502

You've got 3032 nailed. The Neuman entry in 53 was made by Robert McManus. McManus sold 3032 to Tony Hulman the next year.

Rose car was 3031 because we know where 3032 and 3030 were.

Late here. Will try to comment more tomorrow.

#19 fines

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 13:50

Okay, I think I've got it sussed:

Maserati V4 '4001'

Date		Event			   #  Car Name (Entrant)				Engine		  SP   FP   Driver						Laps  Time/Speed/Out	   Points

1930/5/30   Indianapolis 500   26  Maserati						  Maserati		28   37   Baconin Borzachini/Jimmy Rossi   7  Magneto
Maserati 26B '18'??? (offhand I know of no other 2-litre Tipo 26B, other than Pedrazzini's '2010' and Nenzioni's '31', which was in Rome the weekend before)

1930/5/30   Indianapolis 500   42  Maserati (Cucinotta)			  Maserati		30   12   Letterio Cucinotta			 185  Flagged
Maserati 8CM '3010'

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   46  Maserati (Schell)				 Maserati		DNS	   Harry Schell						Did not qualify
Maserati 8CM '3022'

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   36  Maserati Schell				   Maserati		DNS	   Louis Gérard						Did not qualify
Maserati 4CM '1521'

1936/10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 48  Maserati (Rayson)				 Maserati Sc	 36   18   Teddy Rayson					74  Flagged
Maserati 4CM '1528'

1936/10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 12  Maserati						  Maserati Sc	 30	6   Frederick McEvoy/Carlo Trossi   75  4:57'24.82"   60.518	 50
Maserati V8RI '4501'

1937/7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	  8  Maserati (Malmacaan)			  Maserati Sc	 DNA	   Deacon Litz

1939/5/30   Indianapolis 500   28  Deacon Litz					   Maserati		DNS	   George Robson					   Did not qualify

1939/9/10   Syracuse 100	   28  Litz							  Maserati		DNS	   Deacon Litz						 DNS, too slow

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   68  Maserati (Brubaker)			   Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

1947/5/30   Indianapolis 500   86  Jack Maurer (Brubaker)			Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

1948/5/31   Indianapolis 500   14  Maserati (Brubaker)			   Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

1949/5/30   Indianapolis 500   79  Brubaker						  Maserati		DNS	   Jim Brubaker						Did not qualify

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   84  George Hoster, Inc (Shreve)	   Maserati		DNS	   Mike Burch						  Did not qualify
Maserati V8RI '4502'

1937/7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	 45  Maserati (Fiermonte)			  Maserati		24	9   Wilbur Shaw					 90  4:04'03.42"   73.753	135

1939/5/30   Indianapolis 500   53  Maserati (Wharton)				Maserati Sc	 31   33   Deacon Litz					  7  Valve trouble

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   34  Maserati (Marion)				 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Tom Hinnershitz					 Did not qualify

1948/5/31   Indianapolis 500   69  Werner-Grancor (Granatelli)	   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Walt Brown						  Did not qualify

1948/6/6	Milwaukee 100	  69  Werner-Grancor (Granatelli)	   Offenhauser	  6   18   Paul Russo					   2  Throttle

* photograph exists showing #69 at Indy was a KK2000/Offy with Parsons at the wheel!!! Granatelli had three more entries...

1949/5/30   Indianapolis 500   63  Grancor (Rathmann)				Offenhauser	 DNS	   Jim Rathmann						Did not qualify

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   85  Coast Grain (Weinberg)			Offenhauser	 DNS	   Jim Rigsby/Manuel Ayulo			 DNS, too slow

1951/5/30   Indianapolis 500   49  Barzda							Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Spun qualifying

1951/6/24   Langhorne 100	  49  Barzda							Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  DNS, too slow

1951/7/4	Darlington		 49  California Speed Shop (Barzda)	Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Engine practice

1952/7/27   Williams Grove	 52  Barzda							Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  DNS, too slow

1952/9/6	Syracuse 100	   53  Calif. Speed Equipment (Barzda)   Offenhauser	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Did not qualify

* possibly #52???
Maserati V8RI '4503'

1936/10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 24  Maserati (Étancelin)			  Maserati Sc	 32	9   Philippe Étancelin			  75  4:59'43.11"   60.182	 60

1937/5/30   Indianapolis 500   15  Topping						   Maserati Sc	 31   31   Babe Stapp					  36  Clutch

1937/7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	 21  Topping						   Maserati Sc	 11   27   Babe Stapp					   8  Piston
Maserati V8RI '4504'

1936/10/12  Vanderbilt Cup	 29  Maserati (Raph)				   Maserati Sc	 16   42   Georges Raph					 9  Disqualified (push start)

1937/7/5	Vanderbilt Cup	  1  Maserati (Martin)				 Maserati Sc	 16   15   Mauri Rose					  85  Axle, universal joint

1938/5/30   Indianapolis 500   49  Kirkham Maserati (Cheesman)	   Maserati Sc	 Did not appear

1939/5/30   Indianapolis 500   39  Cheesman Maserati				 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 Crankshaft

1940/5/30   Indianapolis 500   39  Cheesman Maserati				 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 Did not qualify
Maserati 6CM '1552'

1938/5/30   Indianapolis 500   27  IBEW (Boyle)					  Maserati Sc	  9   13   Mauri Rose					 165  Supercharger

* Doug Nye has the purchase date of the car as 1939/12/21 (History of the GP car), but I believe that's a typo and should read 1937!
Maserati 8CTF '3030'

1940/5/30   Indianapolis 500   49  Lucy O'Reilly Schell			  Maserati Sc	 31   10   René LeBegue/René Dreyfus	  192  Flagged - rain		   91

1941/5/30   Indianapolis 500   17  Elgin Piston Pin				  Maserati Sc	 30   15   Duke Nalon					 173  Flagged

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   18  Elgin Piston Pin (Brisko)		 Maserati Sc	 11	4   Emil Andres					200  4:35'28.65"  108.902	600

1948/5/31   Indianapolis 500   65  Lynch Motors (Brisko)			 Maserati Sc	 26   33   Harry McQuinn					1  Supercharger

1949/5/30   Indianapolis 500   35  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Sam Hanks/Henry Banks			   DNS, too slow

1949/9/5	Pikes Peak		 35  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati		 ?	2   Louis Unser					  1  16'06.22"	 46.275	160

* possibly with the supercharger removed???

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   39  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Danny Kladis						Did not qualify

1951/5/30   Indianapolis 500   51  Auto Accessories (Barzda)		 Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Bud Sennett						 Wrecked qualifying SW

1952/5/30   Indianapolis 500   53  Calif. Speed Equipment (Barzda)   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  Did not qualify

1953/5/30   Indianapolis 500   69  California Speed & Sport (Barzda) Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Joe Barzda						  DNS, too slow
Maserati 8CTF '3031'

1940/5/30   Indianapolis 500   22  Lucy O'Reilly Schell			  Maserati Sc	 DNS	   René Dreyfus						DNS, too slow

1941/5/30   Indianapolis 500	3  Elgin Piston Pin (Moore)		  Maserati Sc	  1   26   Mauri Rose					  60  Spark plugs

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   25  Jim Hussey (Cott)				 Maserati Sc	 10   12   Russ Snowberger/Duke Nalon	 134  Differential trouble	 39

1947/5/30   Indianapolis 500   25  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	  6   19   Russ Snowberger				 74  Oil pump

1947/8/24   Pikes Peak		 25  Maserati (Cott)				   Maserati		 ?	1   Louis Unser					  1  16'34.77"	 44.947	200

* possibly with the supercharger removed???

1948/5/31   Indianapolis 500   25  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Maserati Sc	 25   32   Paul Russo					   7  Oil leak

1948/9/6	Pikes Peak		 25  Maserati-Offy (Cott)			  Offenhauser	  2	7   Louis Unser					  1  18'10.45"	 41.003	 60

1949/5/30   Indianapolis 500   21  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Offenhauser	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 DNS, too slow

1949/9/5	Pikes Peak		 21  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Offenhauser	  ?	9   Russ Snowberger				  1  17'26.28"	 42.734	 40

1949/9/11   Detroit 100		21  Federal Engineering (Cott)		Offenhauser	 DNS	   Henry Banks						 DNS, too slow

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   21  Fadely-Anderson (Cott)			Offenhauser	 14   20   Spider Webb					126  Flagged - rain

1952/5/30   Indianapolis 500   23  Fadely & Anderson (Cott)		  Offenhauser	 DNS	   Carl Forberg						Did not qualify

1952/8/30   Detroit 100		23  R A Cott						  Offenhauser	 DNS	   Carl Forberg						Spun qualifying

1953/5/30   Indianapolis 500   89  Fadley-Anderson (Cott)			Offenhauser	 DNS	   Spider Webb						 Did not qualify

1954/9/6	Pikes Peak		 91  Cott-Jewell					   Offenhauser	  9	8   Al Rogers						1  15'21.9"	  48.500	 50
Maserati 8CTF '3032'

1939/5/30   Indianapolis 500	2  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  3	1   Wilbur Shaw					200  4:20'47.49"  115.035  1,000

1940/5/30   Indianapolis 500	1  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  2	1   Wilbur Shaw					200  4:22'31.17"  114.277  1,000

1941/5/30   Indianapolis 500	2  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  3   18   Wilbur Shaw					151  Wrecked SW

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   29  Boyle							 Maserati Sc	  7	3   Ted Horn					   200  4:33'19.60"  109.819	700

1947/5/30   Indianapolis 500	1  Bennett Brothers (Henning)		Maserati Sc	  1	3   Ted Horn					   200  4:20'52.55"  114.997	700

1948/5/31   Indianapolis 500	1  Bennett Brothers (Henning)		Maserati Sc	  5	4   Ted Horn					   200  4:14'30.47"  117.844	600

1949/5/30   Indianapolis 500	6  Maserati (IRC)					Maserati Sc	 20   23   Lee Wallard					 55  Gear trouble

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   10  IRC							   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Bill Vukovich					   Did not qualify

1951/5/30   Indianapolis 500   55  Maserati (IRC)					Maserati Sc	 DNA	   -

1953/5/30   Indianapolis 500   43  Maserati (McManus)				Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Roy Neuman						  Did not qualify
Maserati 8CL '3034'

1940/5/30   Indianapolis 500   29  Maserati (Riganti)				Maserati Sc	 24   33   Raul Riganti					24  Wrecked SE
Maserati 8CL '3035'

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   52  Maserati (Filippini)			  Maserati Sc	 28	7   Gigi Villoresi				 200  4:57'40.23"  100.783	300

1949/5/30   Indianapolis 500   15  Maserati (IRC)					Maserati Sc	 30   27   Freddie Agabashian			  38  Overheated

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   12  IRC							   Offenhauser Sc  21   25   Henry Banks/Freddie Agabashian 112  Supercharger oil line

1951/5/30   Indianapolis 500   12  W & J (IRC)					   Offenhauser Sc  26   32   Johnny McDowell				 15  Broken fuel tank

1952/5/30   Indianapolis 500   41  Speed							 Offenhauser Sc  DNS	   Jackie Holmes					   Did not qualify
Maserati 4CL '1573'???

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   53  Maserati (Filippini)			  Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Achille Varzi					   Did not qualify
Maserati 4CL '1579'???

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   54  Maserati (Filippini)			  Maserati Sc	 32   22   Duke Nalon					  45  Universal joint
Maserati 8CLT/50 '3036'

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   46  Maserati						  Maserati Sc	 DNA	   Giuseppe Farina
Maserati 8CLT/50 '3037'

1950/5/30   Indianapolis 500   48  Maserati						  Maserati Sc	 DNA	   Franco Rol
Maserati 4CLT/48 '1604' (according to David McKinney - other opinions?)

1957/5/30   Indianapolis 500   72  (Marguerite) Morgan Engineering   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Danny Kladis						DNS, too slow

1957/6/2	Langhorne 100	  72  (Marguerite) Morgan Engineering   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Charlie Musselman				   Spun qualifying

1957/6/9	Milwaukee 100	  72  (Marguerite) Morgan Engineering   Maserati Sc	 DNS	   Danny Kladis						Wrecked practice T3
Maserati 250F '2531'

1957/6/29   Monza 500		   8  Maserati						  Maserati		DNS	   Jean Behra						  Did not start
Maserati 420M/58 '4203'

1958/6/29   Monza 500		  10  Eldorado-Italia				   Maserati		 7   11   Stirling Moss				  164  Wrecked turn 3

1959/5/30   Indianapolis 500   12  (Scuderia) El Dorado Italia	   Maserati		DNS	   Ralph Liguori					   DNS, too slow
... which only leaves:

1946/5/30   Indianapolis 500   74  Maserati (Schell)				 Maserati		DNS	   ?								   Did not qualify/appear?
This car was not supercharged, so it can't possibly have been a 1500! David and Alessandro once (in another thread) discussed about the possibilty of a 6C-34, which chassis could that have been?

1947/5/30   Indianapolis 500   58  Kennedy Tank (Anderson)		   Offenhauser	  7   11   Les Anderson				   131  Flagged				 100

1947/6/8	Milwaukee 100	  58  Kennedy Tank (Anderson)		   Offenhauser	  2   11   Les Anderson					79  Out					  20
I don't think this was a Maserati at all, even if Phil Harms and Spencer Riggs describe it like that - the picture in the Popely book shows an upright dirt track chassis!

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#20 Steve L

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 14:12

I have only had a little time in my lunch break to read the most recent posts, but could someone tell me why the 8CLTs never started at Indianapolis?

#21 fines

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 14:31

Lack of time, interest and... money, perhaps!;)

Also, Farina was engaged with Alfa Romeo by then, and Rol hardly the driver expected to bring the silver ware, I reckon.

#22 Don Capps

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 14:57

Wow! I'm impressed! This could straighten out a few twists and turns which have puzzled me for some time now. Excellent work, Michael!

#23 Gerr

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 19:10

Great work, Fines! Thank you!

A couple of pix in the Jack Fox book and O Volante comments about the cars with headrests cause some confusion....I'll try and explain what I'm on about.
All the qualifing photos of 3032, 1946 to 1950, show the car with a short headrest/fairing moulded into the fuel tank.
3035 in 1949 and 1950 has a similar, but taller and wider headrest. Set further back than the headrest on 3032.
McDowell's Offy-powered car in 1951 (which should be 3035) has the same (short) headrest as 3032. Which the 1951 Clymer yearbook refers to as "the rejuvenated Shaw-Maserati, greatest money winner in the history of the Speedway".
The McManus/Neuman car of 1953 (which should be 3032) has the same (taller and set-back) headrest of 3035. It is also painted a light colour (white? yellow?) in the B&W photo. 3035 was yellow in 1950, when Banks drove it.

Something doesn't quite add up on the 3032/3035 deal. The Clymer yearbook could be wrong, but if you go by the headrest designs, 3032 was Offy powered in 1951 and the McManus car of 1953 was likely 3035.

Not trying to stir things up. I'm just confused.

#24 cabianca

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Posted 20 December 2002 - 21:50

Gerr,
It seems highly unlikely that once a Maserati had its engine changed to an Offy, that the Maserati engine would be put back in until later years, when a car was restored.

Several articles have been written that say 3032 (Shaw car) nver lost its Maserati engine. When McManus was running his car in SCCA events, he said it was the Shaw car. It wouldn't be the first time that someone lied about the provenance of their car, but the pictures of the McManus car at Indy in 53 definitely show it has a Maserati engine, since the exhaust comes out the left side of the car - Offy exhaust is on right side. Not only that, but it has a single exhaust pipe. 3032 was the only 8CTF to have such a pipe. The others had 2 pipes. When you add this to the fact that Hulman bought the car from McManus, I think you're there. Of course, there's the off chance that the McManus car is the car in the basement of the Museum, but I doubt that very much.

#25 Gerr

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Posted 21 December 2002 - 05:38

Cabianca, I am not arguing. I'm just speculating. Based on what you (and O Volante) have told us McManus owned both 3032 and 3035 at the same time. He purchased both cars from IRC. Perhaps, IRC did not sell him the cars with the Offy (valuable, newish, state-of-the-art) engines installed and removed them and included the Maserati (oldish, out-moded) engine(s) in the sale of the cars. Maybe 3032's engine and exhaust system was installed in 3035 for the 1953 500 because it was the best combination of the parts he had.........maybe 3032 was used in SCCA events with the original engine.
As you said many publications have said 3032 never lost it's Maserati engine. For instance, Road & Track. That is contradicted by the 1951 Clymer yearbook.
I wish we had photos of the car(s) when they ran SCCA or even a pic of the Jackie Holmes car in 1952 to compare.

#26 fines

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Posted 21 December 2002 - 08:49

Just to remind everyone that this all here remains for the best part pure speculation about the subject, but...

You have to keep in mind, that at the time of the purchase of the two Maserati chassis (and I'm not even sure if McManus wasn't a member of IRC), there were only four supercharged Offys in existence, serial numbers '105B', '107B', '110B' and '111B'. It is interesting to note, if maybe not of too much consequence, that the other three enignes, owned by Sampson, Belanger and Kurtis-Kraft, were of a slightly different size (3.875 * 3.75 in) compared with the IRC engine (3.906 * 3.75 in), according to the info from the entry forms, as displayed on the entry list in the 1950 Yearbook!

At present, I'm not able to say with certainty where the other three engines were in 1953, but I bet it would've been easier to change the bodywork on the cars than to exchange the engines! Also, there's absolutely nothing unusual for a car owner to "modify" the provenance of one of his cars, especially if he's safe in the knowledge that nobody can detect this insincerity because the real deal is also in his own backyard!

#27 O Volante

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Posted 22 December 2002 - 14:12

A few points I would have prefered to add earlier, but these other commitments, you know ...
1) Compliments, and many, many thanks to Fines for his explanations! This was more than I had hoped for :clap:
2) As said before, and so admirably shown by Fines, looking for the engine modifications seems to be the right strategy - and I'm also convinced that an (ex-) change of bodywork is more likely than another engine change.
3) No problem to accept 3031 never got an Offy, or that 3030 and 3031 were confused during the Cott/Brazda ownership.
3) While looking at the pictures of 3032 and 3035, I had at times the same feelings like Gerr: at the end my (possibly premature) conclusion was that the small differences where due to different perspectives of the photos etc. or small "real" changes at the cars ...
4) Speaking of pictures brings me back to the one in the Defecheraux history of the early Watkins Glen races, c. page 160. It's a colour shot, showing the 8CTF raced by Brete Harte Hannaway in the 1952 Seneca Cup. You see the car from half back right (4 hours!) : it's very dark blue, there is a small "headrest" and the exhaust pipe is on the (invisible) left hand side - sorry, I do not have the book with me and no scanner, either ...
As far as I can remember the story of the car in that race was that it retired on the pratice lap: because the Glen GP was held at public roads, track time was very short. So there was no practice as such for the runners in the Seneca Cup; instead they got just one introduction, i.e. "practice" lap before the start of their four lap or so race - and on that Hannaway spun off ...
5) This appearance of 3032 in 1952 SCCA racing fits perfectly with its non-entry at the 1952 Indy 500 found by Fines.
6) We know both 3032 and 3035 were at Indy in 1951 with MRC, and sold in December 1954 to Hulman by McManus.
6a) My suspicion is that MRC was simply a new name for IRC, possibly also taking count of changes among the shareholders.
6b) No, according to Crump, McManus was not from Indianapolis, but from Minneapolis!
6c) Question remains: did McManus buy both cars directly from MRC?
6d) Hannaway seems to be still alive (Long time ago I looked his name up in one of the registers available on the net ... can't remember where he was said to live now, originally from one Mount Vernon, not sure which ...)
6e) There are the Hannaway papers at the Watkins Glen research center ...
7) Don't let the cars off the hook again after their Indy story seems to have been straightend out: Please also look out for 3032's SCCA and 3035's "sportscar" career!!!
7a) Some bibliographical info to kick off research on 3032's SCCA record ...
Watkins Glen 1952:
Road & Track , November 1952, p. 2
Road & Track , December 1952, pp. 27, 48
Bridgehampton 1952:
Road & Track , August 1952, pp. 20-21
Chanute Air Force Base 1953:
Road & Track , September 1953, pp. 28-29
What do other magazines say about theses races? Additions from other events?
7b) As I mentioned before, 3035 is said to have been sold to a man from "South Bend, Indiana", got a Chevy engine and to have been used in sports-car races in the mid-late 1950s... Anybody???
The only race driver with a connection to South Bend I know about is Doc Shanebrook - but he in sports-car races? Surely somebody else ...
8) Two fellows with unidentified Maseratis in later editions of the Seneca Cup are
in 1956 "Baron Deteffe" - surely Brazilian racer and diplomat Baron Manuel de Teffé von Hoonholtz, but what car had he? A Maser, the other Watkins Glen history says (what was the title; book also not on hand here) - sports, on loan from an American, or a single-seater, brought over from Brazil ???
in 1958 a Howard Brown - with what? Any ideas???
9) The Cott/Barzda cars' lifes after racing, according to Richard Crump
3030 - various owners, with Geoffrey Neiley, Massachusetts in 1975 (I have seen this name also as Kneiley)
3031 - after hill climbing, used as a driver-training car, in 1961 to Stephen Pitcairn, Pennsylvainia, via Ed Jurist to Cameron Millar, who had it in 1975.
10) The Burch car in the 1950 Indy had no Maserati chassis: according to a story in Automobil Quarterly a short time ago (not on hand here ...), it was a 1930 Miller V16, fitted with a Maserati engine - indeed, probably the one from the Brubaker car ... not that it matters much for the outcome of the whole enterprise ...

Ah yes, merry christmas, and a good new year to everybody!

#28 McRonalds

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Posted 22 December 2002 - 21:25

Originally posted by O Volante
10) The Burch car in the 1950 Indy had no Maserati chassis: according to a story in Automobil Quarterly a short time ago (not on hand here ...), it was a 1930 Miller V16, fitted with a Maserati engine - indeed, probably the one from the Brubaker car ... not that it matters much for the outcome of the whole enterprise...


Interesting aspect. I found an undated picture in my archive showing a Geo. Hoster car carrying #84. Maybe it's the car we're talking about?

Posted Image

#29 cabianca

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Posted 23 December 2002 - 01:06

To pick a nit, McManus posted his entries at Indy and in the SCCA events in 3032 as from St. Paul, Minnesota. Of course, Minneapolis and St. Paul are next to each other.

#30 Buford

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Posted 23 December 2002 - 03:22

My father just mentioned that the other day. The car was owned my Mike Boyle, who was a Syndicate connected Chicago building contractor. I don't know how my parents knew him, they didn't become racers themselves until the 1950s. But anyway, they sat in the front row of Mike Boyles personal box in turn one. They have 3 or 4 black and white photos from that race they took with some kind of box camera. The cars are all elongated. I am sorry they didn't take lots more, even though they are weird.

Just last week we were talking about how cool Indy used to be and he mentioned the 1939 race and lamented he didn't take the camera to the victory party in downtown Indy after the race. I guess it was a pretty wild event.

#31 Barrie Hobkirk

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Posted 24 December 2002 - 21:51

Wonderful list 'fines'.
I'll add my expertise. The 250F that Behra ran at the June 1957 'Monza 500' was not 2531 but old 1956 chassis fitted with a 3.5L V-12. Chassis 2531 first public appearance was two weeks later at the Reims GP.
Cheers,
Barrie Hobkirk

#32 fines

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Posted 25 December 2002 - 14:23

Thanks, Barrie, that means something to me! :)

As for Behra's Maser, if it wasn't '2531', which one was it? '2525' or '2526'?

#33 David McKinney

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Posted 25 December 2002 - 17:35

Originally posted by fines
As for Behra's Maser, if it wasn't '2531', which one was it? '2525' or '2526'?

Neither, I believe. It was one of the several cars numbered 2523, actually the one that had started life as 2522 and which then became the development F1 V12

#34 Barrie Hobkirk

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Posted 26 December 2002 - 02:29

Thanks David,
Beat me to it, and spot-on, as usual.
The disadvantages of being 8 hours further around the globe.
Cheers,
Barrie

#35 fines

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Posted 26 December 2002 - 18:09

:confused:

I can't really say why atm, but I was always under the impression that it was a "fuoricentro" car!!!?

#36 cabianca

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 20:01

Although we have worked around the edges of the identification of Maseratis (and other Italians) at Indianapolis in previous threads, I feel we have made major progress this time. However, we are hardly all the way there. I hope we can continue to work on this together. O Volanti and Fines have done marvelous work, but their conclusions are in opposition to each other. Please allow me to add some things I've learned since we began and to point out work yet to be done.

The Headrest Question:

A quick spin thru Jack Fox's Indy book while flying cross country to my in-laws and returning reveals the following.

Pictures show the following 8CTF/8CL headreasts:
1946 #29 Horne 3032
1947 #1 Horne 3032
1948 #1 Horne 3032
1949 #6 Wallard 3032
1949 #15 Agabashian 3035
1950 #12 Banks 3035 w/Offy
1951 #12 McDowell 3035 w/Offy
1953 #43 Newman 3032 (Pic shows single exhaust, a feature not shared by other 8CTF/8CLs)

This would seem to confirm that 3032 and 3035 were the cars with the headrests. The tie breaker to award 3032 to Newman in 1953 is the single exhaust. Orsi/Zagari's Maserati book, which is not without its faults, assigns 3035 to Agabashian in 1949.

It should be noted here that the Butler Brothers based their identifications of their 3030 on the number of louvers in the lower body panels, but the Fox pics do not show enough detail. The louvers/vents on the rear part of the hood/cockpit surrounds also differ and I have to analyze that. I do not agree with the Butler Brothers conclusions in some cases.

The above would seem to indicate that we have solved the 8CL 3035 question and O Volante and Fines are in agreement on this car. 3034 is easy because it only ran once at Indy, didn't do any further AAA/US races and its history is fairly straightforward since then.

If we can accept that Newman in 1953 used 3032, we are almost complete on that car. That leaves 3030 and 3031. Just for drill, I also noted which 8CLTs were WITHOUT headrests in Fox:
CARS WITH NO HEADRESTS
1939 #2 Shaw 3032
1940 #1 Shaw 3032
1940 #49 LeBeque 3030 (This presents a problem, because I've never been clear on why 3030 is attached to the LeBeque car since the Schell team brought two 8CTFs from France. What source determins which was which? On the other hand, I have no proof one way or another and am not inclined to another conclusion.)
1941 #3 Rose 3031
1941 #17 Nalon 3030
1941 #47 Shaw 3032
1946 #18 Andres 3030
1946 #25 Snowberger 3031
1946 # 52 Villoresi 3035
1947 #25 Snowberger 3031
1948 #25 Russo 3031
1948 #65 McQuinn 3030
1950 #21 Webb 3030 (Offy - Pic shows no exhaust on left)
1951 #49 Barzda (Offy - pic shows no exhaust on left) Fines has this as V8RI 4502, but pic clearly shows an 8CTF. I go with O Volanti's assignment of 3030 because of the Offy.
1951 #51 Sennett 3031 (still with Maserati)
1953 #53 Barzda (Maserati - pic shows two exhusts on left). Now we are into the problem of did 3131 still retain its Maserati engine in 1953 or did 3030 have the its Offy switched back to a Maserati.

We can now leave the headrest issue and, feeling comfortable with our work on 3032, 3034 and 3035, proceed to try to separate the Indianapolis entries of 3030 and 3031. O Volanti and Fines are in agreement from the first appearances of 3030 and 3031 at Indianapolis in 1940, through 1948, i.e.,

3030
1940 #49 LeBeque Q31 F10
1941 #17 Nalon Q30 F15
1946 #18 Andres Q11 F4
1947 Absent
1948 #65 McQuinn Q26 F33

3031
1940 #29 Dreyfus DNQ
1941 #3 Rose Q1 F26
1946 #25 Snowberger Q10 F12
1947 #25 Snowberger Q6 F19
1948 #25 Russo Q26 F33

Since Mrs. Lynch has indicated that she wishes to be taken somewhere for lunch that involves a top-down drive along the San Diego County Pacific coastline, you will understand why I must leave now. In my next installment, I will continue to try and separate 3030 and 3031 from 1949 on where O Volanti and Fines diverge in opinion.


P.S. Re Kladis in #72 in 1957; 4 CLT 48 1604 was originally sold to Enrico Plante in 1948. What is McKinney's history of the car between then and showing up at Indy in 1957, looking remarkably good, I might add. I can provide a pic if someone wants to post it.

#37 David McKinney

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Posted 28 December 2002 - 21:02

My records have 1604 being supplied new to Franco Rol in 1949, and raced by him that year and the next (and loaned to the ACA team for Albi).
Whatever, I don't know any more about it till it turned up at the Brickyard

#38 fines

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 00:44

On another note, here's the pictures of the two 1946 Schell Maserati from the Fox book, courtesy of cabianca:

Posted Image

#39 fines

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 13:40

Sorry Gerr, I simply forgot! :blush:

Here's Gerr's pictures taken of the "basement Maser" at the IMS museum:

Posted Image

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#40 fines

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 13:46

BTW, in the background you can see Lindsey Hopkins 1959 Eddie Kuzma-built dirt car, the "Dowgard Special". I don't think it ever ran at the Speedway.

#41 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 29 December 2002 - 22:27

May I correct 2 typos on drivers name ?

1940 : René Le Bègue (not Lebeque)
1946 : Louis Gérard (not Girard) — incidentally the only driver of high level being known as a centenarian

both having driven Masserrattis at the Spidwey of Indiannapolliss.

Jimmy

#42 Gerr

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 00:51

Cabianca, your statement " It seems highly unlikely that once a Maserati had it's engine changed to an Offy, that the Maserati engine would be put back in until later years, when a car was restored." doesn't hold up. A least one Maserati had an Offy and then had Maserati engine re-fitted, prior to restoration.

The "Autocar" June 11, 1948, page 562, "The Dick Cott (Detroit) equipe worked frantically to dismantle the substitute 4 1/2-litre Offenhauser installed in their 8CTF Maserati Federal Engineering Special, and reinstall the works engine. Russ Snowberger succeeded in the nick of time, and the car handled by Paul Russo, duly qualified at over 122 m.p.h. "

This was also noted in a 1948 Clymer yearbook report ,"Russ Snowberger arrived with a Meyer-Drake Offenhauser in Dick Cott's Maserati chassis. After extensive testing, however, the original Maserati engine was put back in the car, and it ran as as a complete Maserati unit."

Seems like changing an 8CTF from Offy power back to a Maserati engine wasn't to difficult.

#43 cabianca

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 03:20

Gerr,
Many thanks. This is the type of information I am trying to unearth. I think when I do the post-1949 3030/3031 saga, we may run up against this again, i.e., an Offy-engined Maserati being refitted with a Maserati 8C. My statement was not based so much on the ease or difficulty of swapping the engines as it was on the comparative expense of maintenance/rebuild cost of the Offy vs the Maserati. Does anyone know how the various teams running the Maseratis got their parts. Did they get spares from Maserati or just machine them?

#44 Gerr

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Posted 30 December 2002 - 04:00

cabianca, replacing a Maserati engine with the Offy probably was very costly, but having an Offy gave many advantages, fuel economy being the most important.
If you have Gordon White's "Offenhauser" book refer to page 127, " The Offys continued to win. They were reliable and easy to service. By contrast, the prewar Maseratis, Mercedes and Alfas were difficult and expensive to overhaul. Ironically, when no one else was able, Meyer & Drake overhauled Maserati engines on at least two occasions, replacing bearings and making special parts. In 1949 at the Drake machine shop on Wilcox Avenue in Bell, Meyer & Drake pulled the engine out of of one of the Harry Schell 8CTF chassis and installed a 270 Offy. Danny Kladis tried unsuccessfully to qualify it at Indy for R.A.Cott in 1950. Although five of the Maseratis kept coming back, ultimately repowered with either 270 or blown Offys, they finished far back and after 1951, were never able to qualify."

#45 cabianca

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Posted 31 December 2002 - 02:46

Gerr,
My point was that the Offy was so much easier to maintain, why put a Maserati engine back in when the cost of the rebuild had to be astronomical. It was obviously done, but I wonder why. As someone pointed out, perhaps an Offy was removed at time of sale, since the selling owner of a Maserati/Offy might want the Drake engine for another car.

We have been discussing 4CLT 1601. Here's a history. It definitely was in the US at the right time to be at the Speedway with Kladis in 1957.


* Chassis #1604.
* Engine #1601.
* Maserati Factory works Team car.
* Color exterior: Red.
* Color interior: Black.
* Build date: June 9, 1949
* Ownership history: Maserati Factory Team car/Then in 1949/50 to
Franco Rol (Turin, Italy)/Luigi Chinetti (USA)/Then in 1952 to Fred
Bross (USA)/Then in 1965 to Anthony Bamford (UK)/Then in 1976 To
Danny Marguiles (UK)/Then in 1978 to Mr. Hewison (Australia)/Then to
Danny Marguiles (UK) in 1978/ Then to David Cohen (s. Africa) in
1982/To Danny Marguiles in 1990/Then to Jose Albuquerque in early
1996.

* 1949 Factory works car (possible ex-fangio) aren't they all
* 1949/50 raced by Franco Rol (Italy). very good race history.

#46 fines

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Posted 31 December 2002 - 13:55

Originally posted by cabianca
* 1949 Factory works car (possible ex-fangio) aren't they all

No, Fangio never drove a works 4CLT. In fact, there was never a "real" works 4CLT...

Originally posted by cabianca
* 1949/50 raced by Franco Rol (Italy). very good race history.

... but in 1950, Louis Chiron and Franco Rol raced theirs under the works banner, for whatever reason. I can come up with a pretty complete race record for the Rol car when time permits, but not before next year...

#47 cabianca

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Posted 02 January 2003 - 21:19

I will post the 3030/3031 results after 1948 later. In the meantime, O Volante asked about SCCA results for Maserati single seaters. Here are some, all Watkins Glen.

2 Oct 1948 Seneca Cup, Geo Weaver Ret. V8RI (4501)
17 Sept 1949 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 1st V8RI
23 Sept 1950 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
15 Sept 1951 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 1st V8RI
15 Sept 1951 Seneca Cup, Phil Cade DNS V8RI Car expired on grid
20 Sept 1952 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
20 Sept 1952 Seneca Cup, Phil Cade Ret. V8RI 4504
20 Sept 1952 Seneca Cup, Bret Hannaway DNS 8CTF 3032? spun in practice
19 Sept 1953 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
18 Sept 54 Seneca Cup Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
15 Sept 1955 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
15 Sept 1956 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 1st 4CLT (?)
21 Sept 1957 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 3rd V8RI
20 Sept 1958 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
20 Sept 1958 Seneca Cup, Phil Cade 1st V8RI (4504)
26 Sept 1959 Seneca Cup, Phil Cade Ret. V8RI
24 Sept 1960 Glen Region Open, Geo. Weaver 1st V8RI
23 Sept 1961 Glen Region Open, Phil Cade 3rd 250F
23 Sept 1961 Glen Region Open, Geo. Weaver 4th Report says "4CLT Poison Lil". Can't be both, since his V8RI was Poison Lil.

Regarding the McManus 3032 8CTF, the July/August 1953 issue of Sports Car, the SCCA mag, has the following in the race report for Chanute Air Force Base (Rantoul IL) on 14 June 1953. "An interesting entry was Bob McManus' Maserati which once won Indianapolis under the foot of Wilbur Shaw."

#48 O Volante

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Posted 03 January 2003 - 09:54

Many, many thanks, Cabianca! :clap: However, even if it sounds rather impertinent, that info should only be the start ... if we want to make the list of Maserati single-seater race appearances in the US complete ... :)
Re Chanute AFB: I have the ex-Shaw car finishing 5th - but no info about the particular race, or its driver ... Can we understand the reference to McManus' interesting entry in the sense he did drive himself?
Re 4CLT-48 1604: Also reading the current thread on 1600, I wonder if it's not time for a thorough discussion on 1500 s/c Maseratis and their fates. Or, for a start, the 4CLTs ... Any interest?
In eager antecipation of part two of the 3030/3031 story ....

#49 cabianca

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Posted 03 January 2003 - 18:30

Additonal USA Maserati Monoposto results

21-22 July 51 Thompson (CT) There appear to have been several events. A 1/4 mile sprint, a half mile sprint, a flying half mile, a slalom and several 5 lap handicap races.

Weaver in his V8RI 4501 appears to have been fastest in the 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile sprint and flying 1/2 mile. He does not appear to have entered the slalom. He seems to have won his 5 lap sprint with the fastest time of the day.

Phil Cade also was at this Thompson meet with his V8RI 4504 and the report mentions that his car ran perfectly. However, no results are given.

19 Aug 51 Ascutney Hill Climb (VT) Weaver V8RI 1st 4501
19 Aug 51 Ascutney Hill Climb (VT) Cade V8RI 9th 4504

28 Oct 51 Mt. Equinox Hill Climb (VT) Weaver V8RI FTD 4501

More to come.

#50 fines

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Posted 03 January 2003 - 20:24

Originally posted by cabianca
1948 Seneca Cup, Geo Weaver Ret. V8RI (4501)
1949 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 1st V8RI
1950 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
1951 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 1st V8RI
1952 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
1953 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
1955 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
1956 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 1st 4CLT (?)
1957 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver 3rd V8RI
1958 Seneca Cup, Geo. Weaver Ret. V8RI
1958 Seneca Cup, Phil Cade 1st V8RI (4504)
1960 Glen Region Open, Geo. Weaver 1st V8RI

I dunno if this was possibly posted before, but do we have the exact dates of these Glen meets?