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#51 cabianca

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Posted 04 January 2003 - 00:47

Fines,
I have added dates to the post you quoted as well as some new results.

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#52 cabianca

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Posted 05 January 2003 - 05:04

Regarding 3032, David Seielstad has pointed the following out to me. "The program for Lockbourne Air Force Base (9 Aug 53) has a photo of several entrants for the upcoming event. The caption for the McManus photo says it is the same car that won 1939 and40 Indy and among its recent accomplishments "are a 2nd at Janesville and a 3rd and 4th at Offutt." Entered on #43.

I would guess the Janesville event was 13 June 53. I have no report. Offutt would be 4 July 1953."

I had previously told David that I was at Lockbourne in 1953, but don't remember the car.

There is presently a 1953 Chanute AFB program for sale on ebay. This is a race that McManus contested in 3032.

#53 cabianca

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Posted 06 January 2003 - 03:20

Before “finishing” 3030 and 3031, I have a few comments.

I hope there will be some response to the histories of 3030/3031, especially from Fines, O Volante, McKinney and Gerr, who have contributed so much to this discussion.

I have found, subsequent to our discussion, that no Hulman or George was part of the syndicate, Indianapolis Race Cars.

We have determined that #84 in 1950 was a Miller with a V8RI engine. Which V8RI donated its engine for this car? 4504 supposedly didn’t lose its engine until 1951.

O Volante makes his case according to ownership and articles in Automobile Quarterly from 1996 to 2001. If we believe his various theses, then the Indy records of 3030 and 3031 continue:

1949
3030 #21 Henry Banks DNQ. Entered by R. Cott with Federal Engineering sponsorship. First year at Indy under Cott ownership. Offy engine.
3031 #35 Henry Banks/Sam Hanks DNQ. Entered by R. Cott with Federal Engineering sponsorship. Still with Maserati engine.

1950
3030 #21 Spyder Webb Q14 F20. Entered by R. Cott with Fadely-Anderson sponsorship. With Offy as year before.
3031 #39 Danny Kladis DNQ. Entered by R. Cott with Federal Engineering sponsorship. Still with Maserati engine.

1951
3030 #49 Joe Barzda DNQ. Entered by Joe Barzda. No title sponsor. Fox shows Offy engine.
3031 #51 Bud Sennett DNQ. Entered by Joe Barzda with Auto Accessories sponsorship. Crashed in practice. Picture in Fox clearly shows Maserati engine still in car.


In 1952, 3030 and 3031 are again split between Barzda and Cott, because 3032 is not present. However, this may not be so difficult since one car is Offy powered and one has a Maserati engine. According to O Volanti, Barzda’s 8CTF w/Maserati engine in 1953 was 3031. If that is accurate, then it’s probable that both Cott (3030) and Barzda (3031) used the same cars in both 52 & 53. Subject to correction, I’m putting down:

1952
3030 #23 Carl Foberg DNQ. Entered by Richard Cott with Fadely and Anderson sponsorship. Used Offy engine.
3031 #53 Joe Barzda DNQ. Entered by Joe Barzda with California Speed Equipment sponsorship. Fox shows the car having a Maserati engine.

1953
3030 #89 Spider Webb DNQ. Entered by Richard Cott with Fadely-Anderson Sponsorship. Used Offy engine.
3031 #69 Joe Barzda DNQ. Entered by Joe Barzda with California Speed and Sport sponsorship. Maserati engine.

All comments and corrections are welcomed.

#54 Gerr

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 04:07

This photo link may or may not be of interest. It is from Jon Reynold's web-site and is captioned "Old Maserati at Wilmot Hills Wi...'54?"
http://members.aol.c...ix1/wilmot1.jpg
Janesville is close(ish) to Wilmot. Maybe this has something to do with Cabianca's race results for 3032 at Janesville. It is a very tiny image however.

#55 cabianca

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 04:18

Gerr,
Fascinating image. Jim Simpson's OSCA and a Porsche America. Remember, 3032 in 1953 was white or yellow. Could it have been changed back in 1954 before being sold to Tony Hulman or is this another car. Image too small to discern tipo.

#56 Gerr

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 05:11

It is a shame the image is so small. Hard to tell anything at all, except that the car is dark coloured.
I still am not sure that 3032 was the light-coloured car. I think it could have been 3035. I'm still big on the head-rest theory.

Any guesses on the I.D. of the IMS basement car.....Thank you, Fines for posting the pics.

#57 cabianca

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Posted 08 January 2003 - 19:20

Gerr
I thought we had established that when 3035 had an Offy, it was a blown three liter. Are you saying that 3035 had its Offy removed and a Maserati 8 was reinstalled. Fox's pic of the white #43 McManus car in 1954 shows a single left exhaust pipe, so not an Offy then. Entry also shows Maserati power.

#58 fines

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 16:06

Originally posted by cabianca
21-22 July 51 Thompson (CT) There appear to have been several events. A 1/4 mile sprint, a half mile sprint, a flying half mile, a slalom and several 5 lap handicap races.

Weaver in his V8RI 4501 appears to have been fastest in the 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile sprint and flying 1/2 mile. He does not appear to have entered the slalom. He seems to have won his 5 lap sprint with the fastest time of the day.

Phil Cade also was at this Thompson meet with his V8RI 4504 and the report mentions that his car ran perfectly. However, no results are given.

Posted Image

Here are Weaver and Cade at the start of one of the Thompson events (picture provided by cabianca).

I am sorry that I haven't taken part in the latest discussions, but I'm a bit busy atm. Please keep this thread alive, and I am going to rejoin sometime soon!

Meanwhile, anyone care to comment on the 1946 Schell pictures in post 38, or the 'basement Maser' in the following post? C'mon lads, don't let cabianca and Gerr do all the work alone!

#59 O Volante

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Posted 09 January 2003 - 21:07

Hello folks,
I'm just back from my working duties ... promise to go again through all the stuff tomorrow and comment then ... many thanks for your patience!!!

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#60 Gerr

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 05:45

Cabianca, yes, I am saying that 3035 had an Offy and had a Maserati engine re-installed.

Going back to the head-rest deal. Looking at the photos in the Jack C. Fox book of the Henning, IRC, MRC and McManus entries, which can only be 3032 and 3035:

Looking for a low, narrow head-rest that starts just at the back of the driver's seat and short wide grille, you get:
1946 #12 Horn, red (the pix are B&W, but the car is described as red).
1947 # 1 Horn, black.
1948 # 1 Horn, black.
1949 # 6 Wallard, black. Pic shows #15 (Agabashian's number????entry screw-up, no doubt).
1950 #10 Vukovich, dark....red, black, mahogany? DNQ, no actual colour description.
1951 #12 McDowell, mahogany. With an Offy and if you look closely at the photo, you will see the same exhaust pipe cut-out in the hood as 3032 on the left side.
This is 3032.

Looking for a tall, wide head-rest that starts a few inches behind the driver's seat, a narrower, taller grille, five cooling holes in the front brake drums and a strange, bulbous cover that hangs down from the belly-pan below the cockpit, you get:
1949 #15 Agabashian, black.
1950 #12 Banks, yellow.......With an Offy.
1953 #43 Neuman, A light colour.......With Maserati power.....and the exhaust header (or a duplicate) of 3032. Which is not a real tough trick if you are McManus and own both cars.
This is 3035.

I'm not saying that McManus did not enter SCCA events with the Indy winning, 3032, I think he did. I am saying that the "3032 never had an engine swap" kind-of statements are false. I think that 3032 never lost its engine, the engine was always around the shop somewhere, maybe in 3035 for a time......maybe not.......wasn't there another Henning engine, 3033?

Anyway, I also think that it is more likely (because it's way easier) that mechanics would swap engines and hoods and exhaust headers rather than remodel/repaint bodywork.

I get the impression that people think that 3035 was lost/broken-up etc. I've had some pix posted here (Thanks again, Fines) that show an 8CL at IMS in 1991, (while the only other example ,3034 was in Japan, so we know that it must be 3035)...........and no one has made a comment?


Gerr

#61 O Volante

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 13:18

OK, let's start! As far as I can see, the major result of this discussion in relation to the 8CTF Maseratis and the US 8CL is that they appeared from 1949 DEFINITELY in two pairs - the IRC, MRC, McManus cars 3032 and 3035 vs. the Cott/Brazda cars 3030 and 3031: this point, I would think, has been established when fines came up with the wonderful data from the Indy yearbooks and deducted the car histories based on the individual engine types and sizes, putting flesh on the bare bones of my suspicions!
Since then, and because of that new insights, the thread has focused on four different aspects of the history of single-seater Maseratis in the US:
a) The Cott/Barzda cars. Here the question is simply which car is which - in fact, it seems that I am myself responsible for some uncertainity. Below I will show how and why that happend ...
b) The IRC/MRC/McManus cars. For the doubts concerning them I have no immediate solution, but an idea how to find out ...
c) The other Maseratis.
d) plus additional race appearances for all the cars.

#62 O Volante

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 16:05

a) The Cott/Barzda cars. In view of 3030/3031, it seems the great new find contained in Fines' data is the fact that also one of Cott's cars (possibly besides 3032) never got an Offy engine. The crucial question is which one that is ...

As mentioned above, my original theses owe much to some articles in AQ . The following are relevant extracts from the piece on Russ Snowberger by Spencer Riggs in Vol. 41, No. 2, 2001:

"... just prior to the 1946 Indy 500, Dick Cott made Snowy an offer he couldn't refuse. Cott had just purchased the former Lou Moore 8CTF Maserati, with which Rose had won Indy's pole in 1941 (my italics, WK). ... Russ qualified at a rather sedate 121.593, earning tenth position on the grid. ... However, on race day, Snowy and the maroon and silver screamer surged toward the front. ... But the Speedway had been rendered rough by wartime inactivity, and it was a rather hot day for May. Snowy felt his strength beginning to fail. When he pitted at 225 miles, Duke Nalon took over the Maserati. Checking the leader Robson's lap times, Russ realized he had slowed nearly five mph. Second place Jackson, was having carburetor trouble, and Nalon was gaining on both men. This looked like the year. But at 134 laps, Nalon coasted to a stop with differential failure. Their magnificent effort earned twelfth place. ... Even before the war, Russ had cut back on his driving, concentrating on Indy. But he had a great idea: Acting as Cott's mechanic and team manager, he contacted his old pal Louie Unser, about driving the Maserati. With its road-racing gearbox, the machine seemed a natural for the Peak. Not only did 'the old master' and the screaming Maserati sweep the time trails, but on race day their new record of 15.28.7 won the hill climb and the $5000 bonus for the new mark." (p. 50)

"In 1947 at Indy, Snowberger's effortless qualifying run of 121.331 put Cott's Federal Engineering sponsored Maserati on the outside of the second row. Once again, Russ thought he had an excellent shot at winning the 500. In the early going, he ran with ease in sixth place, watching Rose and Bergere battle it out. But on lap 74, the oil pump quit, stopping him in nineteenth place. No one realized it then, but shortly thereafter, Snowberger announced his retirement from Indy. He would drive at Pikes Peak, and remain Cott's chief mechanic. But his days of racing wheel-to-wheel were over. At Pikes Peak, it seemed many of the drivers had taken a tip from Snowy and Unser's success with the Maserati. Several Grand Prix machines were entered, including a Type 308 Alfa Romeo and a Bugatti. But for the second straight year, Louie Unser drove the Snowberger-wrenched 8CTF to victory. With all the exotic equipment entered, Russ drove to third place in a McDowell-powered car - quite an accomplishment." (p. 50)

"In the '48 'Race to the Clouds', Snowy wheeled the McDowell to fourth place, while Unser and the Maserati failed to finish." (p. 50, nothing here on the '48 Indy 500)

"For 1949, Cott acquired a second Maserati. After much machining work and sweat and blood, Russ converted this machine (my italics, WK) to Offy power. The combination of the Maserati's handling coupled with the four-banger's reliable power should have produced a formidable machine. But Indy proved a huge disappointment. Both Cott entries, wheeled by Sam Hanks and Henry Banks, missed the starting field. At Pikes Peak, Snowy wheeled the Maserati-Offy to ninth place, while Unser brought the conventional 8CTF home second. Louie might have won, but he spun on the last turn before the finish line, crossing the tape in reverse gear throwing a rooster tail of dirt in the wrong direction." (p. 51)

"By 1950, the Maseratis were showing their age. Spider Webb and the Maserati-Offy finished 12 laps off the winner's pace at Indy. At the Peak, Unser had a less than successful run. Driving the Bob Estes Ardun-Mercury racer, Snowy all but went off the road. The incident caused the veteran chaffeur to hang up the helmet and googles for good. (p. 51, later appearances of the 8CTFs at Indy and Pikes Peak not mentioned in the remaining text)

I have added italics at two points - where the first Cott 8CTF is identified as the '41 Rose car and where the second Cott 8CTF is identified as the car that got an Offy engine. Under normal circumstances that should settle the case: Richard Crump for example (in his article quoted above), gives 3030 as the car "finishing its life at Indianapolis in 1951 with an Offenhauser engine" (p. 18), while 3031 is the car that "ascended Pikes Peak in Denver, Colorado driven by the Unser Brothers (sic!), and was then used as a driver-training car. The nose and tail were altered and a locked differential installed, presumably for hill climbs." (p. 18). In other words, the Offy car is 3030, Rose's car 3031 - resulting in the cars' race records as presented above by Cabianca.

However, there is also some evidence pointing in exactly the opposite direction ... As far as I know, 3031 is still with Joel Finn, who had it restored by John Rogers; before it was since the late 1960s with Cameron Millar. 3030 is currently owned by Dean Butler, who took it over from Bob Rubin, and had it restored by Chris Leyden. Leydon Restaurations have a nice homepage, among other topics containing a number of articles written about their work on various prominent and not so prominent cars. And in these articles you can read, apparently based on what Chris Leydon found during restauration, that 3030 was the car heavily crashed by Bud Sennett in qualifying for the Indy 500 in 1951: one has to assume that some traces of the crash were still detectable! The unpleasant thing with that identification is that Sennett's car is according to Fines' (and Phil Harms') lists and the Fox pictures the ex-Cott Maserati-Maserati!!!

What to make out of all that? Please note that with the "restauration experiences" the research is taking a diffent perspective: From contemporary documents, pictures etc. to the investigation of the car itself. If it is true that traces of the Sennett crash have still been detectable on the chassis identified without doubt as 3030, something else has to be wrong. Because I have no reason to have doubts about the results compiled from contemporary sources by Fines and Harms, not to speak about the contemporary pictures, I wonder if the mistake does not originate from the Spencer Riggs article, and before that, from the Richard Crump text ... All known facts fit in place, if one assumes Russ Snowberger did not equip the for 1949 newly acquired 8CTF 3030 with an Offy, but the Cott team's old 8CTF 3031 ...

#63 O Volante

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Posted 10 January 2003 - 18:17

b) To be honest, Gerr's observations make me extremely uncomfortable. Sure, a change of engines could be done, but how much effort would be required? The mention of such a change done on the Cott car as early as 1948 seems to show it was not that complicated ...
But I have trouble with the motivation of such a move happening in 1952 or 1953. As outlined above, having competition at Pikes Peak in mind, Cott's team had good reason to experiment with an engine chance in 1949, or even earlier in 1948. One can also understand why IRC did the same with their 8CL: the new supercharged Offy was surely looking like an improvement from the original Maser engine, which by 1950 probably had become a little long in the tooth. In 1952 and 1953, however, it must have been clear that even an Offy powered Maserati had no longer a chance to achieve a decent result. So, why to invest money and work in an engine change, not to speak about a change back to Maserati power? The only explanation for moving back to a Maser engine I can imaging at the moment is that the replacement Offy broke - does somebody know about such a thing happen?
Anyway, it's evident the discussion on 3032 and 3035 has reached a kind of deadlock: The only way to find DEFINITELY out about the installation of an Offy engine in 3032 is to check its engine compartment, and look for suspicious drillings in the frame - does somebody know how the remains of such an installation should look in detail? Somebody to travel to Indy anyway???
In the meantime, at least one more question for Gerr: Where do you put Jackie Holmes' Maserati, entered for the 1952 Indy 500, in your "headrest" based race record for 3032 and 3035?
Indeed, I too think the car in the IMS basement may well be 8CL 3035 - the gossip from the 1980s having it broken up being exactly that ... However, there is also a very remote chance the pictures show 8CL 3034: As you said, after the late 1970s that car lived in Japan, but I seem to remember it came at least two times to the US for restauration purposes during the 1980 and early 1990s (before Tony Merrick finally got everything right) ... perhaps including a visit to the Indy museum in order to compare some details with its close relative 3032?
c) Sorry, McRonalds, I can't answer your question about the picture. I don't have that issue of AQ; only made a short note about the 1931 (not 1930, as I said earlier, sorry) Miller V16, which was equipped for the 1950 Indy 500 with a Maserati engine. I have not even scribbled down the exact source, but the article was definitely published in 2000 or 2001. Accordingly in 1950 the Ed Shreve owned, Geo Hoster sponsored Miller-Maserati #84 was entered for Mike Burch. Unfortunately he didn't pass the physical tests, and was replaced by Billy Earl - who, of course, did not qualify! Earlier the car had a Ford V8 engine, and was known as the "Robt. Allison Special", run by Thane and Norm Houser. Before that the car had been owned by Joel Thorne.
No, Fines, apparently 4502 was never in the hands of Joe Barzda - in his series of articles on the V8RI, Denis Jenkinson, has the car with the distinctive "cascade" front (a Siata modification dating back from its Scuderia Torino days) passing from Brubaker to Burch and then Phil Cade; in view of the above possibly meaning Burch using only the its engine. Therefore I would think the race appearances of Barzda in 1951/1952 you allocate to that car should rather go to Barzda's 8CTF - whichever it was!
d) Many thanks to all who contributed so far!!! I'm looking forward for more ...

#64 Gerr

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 02:55

Ran across this interesting web-site,
http://www.arielmoto...s.com/ajbio.htm
Mister Lewis was a mechanic on 3032 it seems...

O Volante, I'll try to address your questions, but I really don't know much, I'm just going by poor photos in old books.
The pictures of the basement Maserati were taken May, 1991, the day before the 500. I don't think that this car had ever been restored before. The fuel-tank has a lot of filler down the spine which is probably a repair after the removal of the added on head-rest. It has the five holes in the front drums. It has the narrow and tall grille of an 8CL. I am sure that is 3035.

I have never seen a picture of Jackie Holmes' 1952 car, so I cannot comment on it's place in the head-rest theory.

As far as swapping engines go, these cars have rail frames and all the bodywork (fire-wall forward) is easily removed. I think swapping engines is pretty simple. I'll look closer at chassis pics I have. We have already determined that Snowberger did the Offy back to a Maserati swap pretty quick. I'll keep digging.

#65 bobdar

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 05:10

Thanks for a really fastinating thread. I have some information on the Geo Hoster #84 car, as it was for sale a while back and I was interested. According to "John", the seller, the photo posted by McRonalds is the Burch 1950 car, and it was recently sold to a man in Michigan. John (don't have his last name) from Ohio had the car for years; actually it had been bought by his father who had passed away. According to John, the car started life as a Miller two-seater, and was involved in an incident where both occupants were killed. It sat in a field for some time, and eventually the Miller motor and front axle were removed. Someone else took the chassis and narrowed it for a single seater and installed an aluminum body built by Jerry Foyt. John's research led him to believe that the car attempted to qualify at Indy in 1950 with a Ford flathead motor, not a Maserati. John had met Billy Earl, and Billy verified that the car was fitted with the Maser at one time, but that the 1950 qualifying attempt was with a flathead. I could find John's telephone number if there is any interest in speaking with him.

#66 cabianca

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Posted 11 January 2003 - 19:03

This thread is fantastic!. Don't have time right now to get into the lastest developments, but I can say that the history of 3034 is absolutley documented and there is no time in its history that it could have been in the bowels of the Indy museum. Therefore, what is there is either 3035 or something made with parts from 3035.

#67 cabianca

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 02:10

Gerr,
There's one problem about the conventional wisdom of the 1951 McDowell car being 3032. McDowell's car ran a blown Offy. This would mean one of three things.
1) The blown Offy from the 1950 Banks 8CL 3035 would have had to have been removed from 3035 and put in 3032 for 1952. Possible, but unlikely.
2) One of the other three blown Offys in existence would have had to have been put into 3032. Possible, but I don't think one was available.
3) Was Holmes 1952 entry with blown Offy McDowell's 3032 from the previous year or was it 3035 as I suspect, thus making two Maserati chassis with blown engines, which I doubt very much.

If McDowell's 1951 car was 3032, how do you number the other 1951 Maserati entries

#49 Barzda (Offy engine)
#51 Sennett (Maserati engine)
#55 No Driver Nominated (Maserati engine) DNA

#68 Gerr

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 08:39

Cabianca,
1) I agree, it would seem strange to remove the engine from a chassis and install it in another similar chassis. Maybe 3032 handled better. It certainly had proven itself. Who knows?

2) The blown Offy engine from the 1950 Kurtis-Kraft Inc. (Agabashian's #28) was available. That car is pictured in the 1951 yearbook and the caption reads "did not compete at Indy this year".
I have no reason to believe that this engine was used by IRC/MRC, but it was for sale and it and the car were later bought by Ed Walsh.

3) I haven't seen a picture of Holmes' 1952 Maserati entry, so I couldn't say. If you have a picture, please post it or describe it.

How do I number the other 1951 entries? Gimme a break! I have enough stress with 3032 and 3035!

#69 fines

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Posted 12 January 2003 - 09:08

Originally posted by Gerr
2) The blown Offy engine from the 1950 Kurtis-Kraft Inc. (Agabashian's #28) was available. That car is pictured in the 1951 yearbook and the caption reads "did not compete at Indy this year".
I have no reason to believe that this engine was used by IRC/MRC, but it was for sale and it and the car were later bought by Ed Walsh.

Ed Walsh was a partner of Frank Kurtis in Kurtis-Kraft, so it is somehow questionable if the car ('330-50') was sold (reputedly for $15,000) or merely "handed over". Anyway, it ran in the '51 '500', but with an unsupercharged Offy. The supercharged Offy '111B' went to Hart Fullerton's Kurtis-Kraft KK4000 chassis ('338-51'). Unfortunately, this is the only one of the four s/c Offys that I can trace with any degree of certainty beyond 1950. :(


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#70 Dracula

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Posted 18 January 2003 - 11:19

Michael Schumacher before USA GP 2002 tried the Maserati 8CTF of Wilbur Shaw that he used to win the 1939 Indy 500. Schumacher drove one lap in 8ÑTF on 29th September 2002 just before Ferrari Challenge race. After this test Michael said: “I was surprised at what good shape it was in. It handled very well.”
Also Schumi tested sportcar Maserati Trofeo there. And Ferrari official test driver Luca Badoer drove Maserati Spyder Cambiocorsa.
Posted Image

Also pictures of Schumacher’s test in Maserati 8CTF you can find in LAT archives or in “Autosport” magazine (October 3, 2002).

#71 O Volante

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Posted 31 January 2003 - 13:02

Don't let the topic slip! To keep things going, a little more about Bob McManus. It comes from Simon Moore's 2.3 Alfa Romeo book - McManus was also the owner of an 8C-2300, 2311228, from c. 1952 to 1961!
Moore cites a letter he's got from a Mr. Richard Robb, of San Diego, who remembered a ride in the Alfa c. 1956 with Don Skogmo (!) driving. According to Robb's tale, Skogmo had been given the task to make the car more streetable, as McManus was too busy "with his latest plaything, the 8C Maserati of Indy / Wilbur Shaw". Later the Alfa was sold via a chap called Cliff Brenna ...
Nothing interesting for us - but in adition to Moore's confirmation that Robert McManus was of Minneapolis, Robb writes in his letter that McManus was the 7-Up distributor in St. Paul, and that "the people who might add to the (Alfa's, W.K.) story are gone ... Skogmo died at Road America about 1965, Cliff Brenna in 1987, McManus about the same time ... after being a millionaire, he lost it all - family, business, friends, money - everything to alcohol, and died of sclerosis ... pushing a broom." (Moore, Alfa 2.3, p. 728)

#72 O Volante

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Posted 19 March 2003 - 10:47

I'm still not giving in ...
Has somebody inspected "Auto d'Epoca" for September 2001 (Vol. 18, No. 9)? It may contain interesting pics for this discussion - judging from what you can see here ...

#73 Gerr

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 10:18

O Volante/ Cabianca,

You have both mentioned Hannaway as an owner of 3032. I ran across an article about Frankie Del Roy in "Auto" September 1952 by Fred Horsley.

"We hopped into Frank's car and took a short spin to a little "Gasoline Alley", where each of the several small garages had a racer or a custom sports car. In one of these alley garages, Dick Simonek, the garage owner, and Bob Morgan, an engineering consultant, were tearing down a veteran Maserati straight-eight racer. Morgan had just sold the Maserati to "Red" (Bret Hart) Hannaway. Hannaway, a big red-headed Scot from Glasgow who's now a sports car dealer in Mamoroneck, New York, showed up a moment later to help prepare his racer for the Bridgehampton sports car races. After lowering the compression ratio from 8.5:1 to 6:1 on the powerful 179 cu. in. engine which, before sports car modifications turned up to 450bhp with supercharging at 6800 rpm, Red had a monoposto Grand Prix body added and intended to race his converted Maserati in the unlimited category at Bridgehampton. Due to minor difficulties, however, his car never started.

The Maserati was one of the two racers of that marque imported by Mrs. Louise O'Reilly-Schell for Rene Dreyfus and Rene LeBegue to race at the 1940 Indianapolis. Dreyfus was driving it in tenth spot at the 300-mile mark, when rain forced an official slowdown and a freezing of relative positions. Later Lou Moore bought the racer, which cost $36,000 when it was built in 1938.

That's how Frank Del Roy got in the picture. He tuned the Maserati as well as Moore's four-cylinder Offy special for the 1941 "500". Mauri Rose won the the pole position for the hottest qualifying time. At 175 miles out in the big show, the Maserati's magneto went sour. That comparative showing of a European racer and an American Offy, both of which had been prepared for the same Indianapolis running, built up Frankie's contention that the best foreign racer stands little chance in the long, grueling speed test, even under the hands of a crack American racing star. Although the Maserati was the fastest car at the track, it couldn't stand up to the battering of the winning pace for the full distance. It was still rugged enough on the road, however, to break the records for the Pike's Peak climb with Louis Unser aboard in '46-'47. Unser's mark in the Maserati still stands ,unbeaten to this day."

So this would be 3031 ?

PS; Del Roy and Horsley were in Paterson NJ.

#74 O Volante

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 10:57

Hoooh, Gerr,
what a fine piece you have dragged up here ... :clap:
I'll go again through all the stuff, and come back later ...

#75 doc540

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 16:50

Here's a link to 57 Maserati/Indy images courtesy of the fine people at Artemis Images.

Enjoy!

Maserati Indy



One of Indy's Most Beautiful!

Posted Image

#76 doc540

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 17:11

Hope this link works. If not, visit the Artemis Image site to view a few pics of the Maserati at Pikes Peak.


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#77 O Volante

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Posted 13 May 2003 - 18:45

Where to start?
1) The only fact I'm REALLY sure about is that this story on the Hannaway 8CTF is extremely interesting ... :up:
2) Indeed, the car seems to have been the ex-Cott Maserati-Maserati (as opposed to the ex-Cott Maserati-Offy), for who's identification as 3031 we have found a number of reasons ... except that there are doubts about the consistency of the above designations - I only say headrests and engine changes ... ;)
3) Anyway, the story of Hannaway's purchase of this car in Spring 1952 is shooting our implicite theory that Joe Barzda's entries in the early 1950s 500s were always the same two cars simply to pieces: Remember, in 1951 Indy 500 it had been entered by Barzda for Bud Sennett - and somehow at least I had assumed the car was also owned by Barzda ... How had the car by early 1952 come into the hands (ownership?) of this Bob Morgan?
4) In this year 1952, the mentioned Bridgehampton races were held a week before the Indy 500. Therefore the one Maser entered without driver that did not arrive at Indy must have been Hannaway's - appearing at the brickyard were apparently the 3.0 s/c Offy engined car for Jackie Holmes, plus the two Barzda cars, one with 3.0 s/c Maserati and one with 4.5 u/c Offy engine. So Barzda's Maserati-Maserati must have been 3032, or had 3032 finally - if only temporarily - got an Offy engine ... and 3030 or the 8CL had been changed back to Maser power?
4) If the car absent from the 1953 Indy 500 entry was indeed the 8CL, and the McManus entry was 3032, then the Barzda cars must have been 3030 (with Offy engine) and 3031 (with Maserati engine). Who was the owner of 3031 at that point of time?
PS: Somewhere I read there are the "Hannaway papers" at a certain research center at Watkins Glen ...

#78 Gerr

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Posted 14 May 2003 - 04:06

Regarding this fellow Bob Morgan, "an engineering consultant" , perhaps he has something to do with the 1957 Indy entry No. 72, Maserati 4CLT/48 of Danny Kladis, the Morgan Engineering car, entered by Marguerite Morgan.

?

#79 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 May 2003 - 02:10

For those lucky enough to be at the Speedway on Carb Day, this car will be doing a two laps around the track during a break in the action.

I saw and heard it last year and it is SWEET!

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#80 Walter Zoomie

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 03:34

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Sam Hanks in a Maserati at Indy, 1949. I have no other information on this photo, but I thought I'd contribute something, even thought I'm a year late.;)

#81 O Volante

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Posted 16 May 2003 - 09:37

Thanks, Walter, better late than never ...;)
First I have to correct my post above: in 1952, there were only three 8CTF/8CL cars entered at Indy, indeed, with the fourth missing, because of the Bridgehampton races - and now we know that this was apparently 3031 ... Sorry for confusion!
Thanks, doc540, found the link to Artemis interesting ... :) ,
... made use of it ... and while doing so, sorting out the 8CTF/8CLs, I stumbled about a detail I would like to ask about: As we know, 3032 can be recognized by its single exhaust pipe; all others (3030, 3031 and the 8CL) having two. The front of the 8CL is sightly different, so no problem to sort that one also out - anyway all the "paperwork" at Artemis is as I know, including that the pictures of 3032 and the 8CL at Indy in 1949 show both with race #15 ...
But again comparing the cars in doubt - 3030 and 3031 - I noted on the side panel of what is supposed to be 3031 a small bump, or small hood. It's almost in the middle, just below the single exhaust pipe ... First question: can somebody tell me what it is?
Interestingly, nothing comparable can be seen on the pictures at Artemis supposed to show 3030, but it appears on all picture thought to show 3031 - check yourself:
1941 - #3 - Rose - picture IMSC 3021
1946 - #25 - Snowberger - IMSC 3032
1947 - #25 - Snowberger - IMSC 4044
1948 - #25 - Russo - IMSC 4088
Second question: who has got later pictures of the 8CTFs where this "feature" is visible? The pics I know - or rather the reproductions - are to small to say ...

#82 Walter Zoomie

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Posted 18 May 2003 - 03:13

I took this picture yesterday at Indy. It was sitting underneath the pagoda. Enough to make a guy drool...
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#83 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 May 2003 - 11:16

When the blue car was at Phillip Island last year, I felt exactly the same!

And it was partially dismantled for a repair, I saw under the skin as well... fabulous.

#84 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 May 2003 - 22:39

And to help this along...

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#85 McRonalds

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Posted 19 May 2003 - 10:57

Three cars enter Milliken's Corner during the 1950 Seneca Cup race. In front is George B. Weaver in his Maserati (a V8), followed by Phil Weavers in his Cadillac-Healy Silverstone and Erwin Goldschmidt in his Cadillac-Allard J-2. Walters won the 15-lap, 99-mile race, averaging 67.13 mph.

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Cars line up for the start of the 1948 Junior Prix at Watkins Glen. Numbers drawn from a hat determined starting positions for the four-lap, 26.4-mile race. Look at the car in row 3:

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Anothger view from the same event:

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#86 fines

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Posted 18 June 2003 - 17:25

I found this nice pic from 1953:

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It shows the Cadillac-V8-engined Cal Connell Special, a nice but unsuccessful interloper in the Offy-dominated entry, and itself a bit of a bone of contention, since some claim it to be the old 1950 Cummins Diesel rebuilt.

Be that as it may, the reason I post this here is the car in the background - yes, #69 California Speed Shop Spl., it is Joe Barzda's Maser! And, although you can't see too much of it here, it has all the features that we use to define '3031': the two seperate holes for the exhausts in the bonnet, the strap in the middle of those, and the bulge on the frame rail mentioned by Volante in post #81. In almost every detail it looks the same as the car Mauri Rose put on pole twelve years earlier:

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Now I've spent hours and hours going through this thread again, reading every post carefully, checking all available pictures and facts, thinking "Now I'm going to crack this nut!" - but I still can make no sense of it! I need a break...

#87 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 01:54

Originally posted by McRonalds
Three cars enter Milliken's Corner during the 1950 Seneca Cup race. In front is George B. Weaver in his Maserati (a V8), followed by Phil Weavers in his Cadillac-Healy Silverstone and Erwin Goldschmidt in his Cadillac-Allard J-2. Walters won the 15-lap, 99-mile race, averaging 67.13 mph.

Posted Image

Cars line up for the start of the 1948 Junior Prix at Watkins Glen. Numbers drawn from a hat determined starting positions for the four-lap, 26.4-mile race. Look at the car in row 3:

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Anothger view from the same event:

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It delights me to see those great photos from the early years at Watkins Glen! Thanks, McRonalds, for posting them. A couple of small elucidations however.

In the first photo from the 1950 Seneca Cup that is, of course, Phil Walters (not Weavers) in the Cadillac Healey (but I know you knew that because you got it right in the next sentence). The Healey was from the Briggs Cunningham stable and was a very potent car. The Seneca Cup was the opening race that day. In the Watkins Glen Grand Prix later that day Briggs himself took over the Healey and finished 2nd to Goldschmidt. That was the race in which Sam Collier (driving the Cunningham owned Ferrari 166 SC) died after crashing on the 2nd lap moments after taking the lead.

George Weaver's Maserati V8RI which appears in the lead in that 1950 photo is the same car that appears in the 1948 photos. This car (chassis #4004) has been extensively discussed in other threads on this Forum. Weaver dubbed it "Poison Lil" and it is still affectionately known as such. It is still owned by George's widow Barbara. For many years it was on loan to the Donington Museum and last year Barbara brought it back to America. Barbara is on our board at the Research Center at Watkins Glen and the car was on display there last autumn. We may have it back again for a month or two later this year. It currently is at the museum in Saratoga Springs, New York. Although the car was never particularly successful in the European GP's it was designed for, it raced at the Indy 500 in 1938, 39, and 40 and Mauri Rose drove it in the Vanderbilt Cup in 1937. Weaver bought it in 1947 and when he appeared in it for the first American post war road race at Watkins Glen in '48, the car was very impressive and very fast. Weaver was a very good driver but I think he was an even better engineer by the virtue of managing to make that beast run. It was famously unreliable but when it ran it was something to see. Weaver never achieved his goal of winning the Watkins Glen Grand Prix but won the Seneca Cup in 1949 and again in 1951 in this car.

The two 1948 photos deserve a fuller explanation. Although they were taken the same day they are actually two different races. There were only two races that historic day - the Junior Prix (which the following year was renamed the Seneca Cup) and the feature Grand Prix.

The first photo you show is indeed the Junior Prix, as you say. On the front row are Dud Wilson (# 32) in his 1928 Stutz BB Black Hawk Speedster and Mike Vaughn in his 1938 Lagonda Rapide. Weaver can be seen moving in to his 3rd spot on the grid alongside Charles Addams (the New Yorker cartoonist and creator of the Addams family) in his 1929 Mercedes-Benz S Tourer. On the third row are the cars that finished 1rst and 2nd - on the inside Briggs Cunningham in the BuMerc and the race winner Frank Griswold in his Alfa Romeo 8C 2900.

The last photo is the starting grid for the Grand Prix. This time Cunningham is on pole alongside Vaughn - Weaver is again 3rd and race winner Griswold completes the second row.

Some may wonder why Cameron Argetsinger chose to call this race the Watkins Glen Grand Prix. He deliberately took poetic license with the term because he wanted to emphasize the importance of the event and the ambition for the future of the race. A local booster famously said to him, "We must call it the American Grand Prix!" Argetsinger's reply was, "no, someday we will have a legitimate American Grand Prix here - but we will call this race the Watkins Glen Grand Prix."

#88 Gerr

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 23:38

Ran across an article in R&T, September 1959, page 66, titled "Magnificent Maserati".
These are the interesting bits:



" As a matter of historical fact , the engine shown here----and the car it is installed in----proved to be a winning combination at Indianapolis : in 1939 and 1940, Wilbur Shaw drove this very car to victory at the Brickyard. And the consecutive victories of Shaw's Maserati have not been forgotten. At Indianapolis, if nowhere else, they never forget a winner. In all probability, if someone were to show up with the original Shaw Maserati at the 1960 500-miler, there would be those who would worry.

Though this may be amusing to speculate on, we rather doubt that it will happen. The car which raced under the name of the Boyle Special, has been turned out to pasture and will henceforth be only seen at sports-car races.

It is being redone so that it will qualify as a sports car. If this is handled successfully, there is a better than passing chance that this Maserati may win a few more races after all."

Further down the page:

"In 1938 was announced that Maserati was to make a fresh attack on the Grand Prix category with a new car, the type 8-CTF. This was revealed as an 8-cyl in-line, supercharged model with a 3-liter displacement. It was described then, and is yet, as being pretty and graceful as any racing car ever built. The engine was in effect, two of their 1500 4's placed end to end in a chassis with i.f.s. (with torsion bars) and a rear axle hung on quarter-elliptics. The engine had a bore and stroke of 69 X 100 mm, and there were two superchargers feeding it. These superchargers had entirely separate manifolding, each one feeding a 4 cyl."



The colour photo (by Chuck Daugherty) shows the top of the nose, engine and cowl. The car is red with body damage on the left side of the nose, a pair of flush-mount mirrors, aero windshield, two separate exhaust and the "bulge" on the frame rail cover.



"Huh ?????" I says to myself, "this is NOT 3032 ! I wonder if someone wrote a letter, correcting the mistake (s) ". Maybe there was a Fines or O Volante around in 1959.

No letter in the Oct. or Nov. issues, but Dec. had this.


A carping critic, perhaps, but I am aware of your constant desire for factual copy so I must advise you that somewhere you have been misinformed.

Your article, Magnificent Maserati (September) identifies the subject of your striking color shot as the Mike Boyle/Wilbur Shaw Maserati that won Indianapolis in 1939 and 1940. This simply hain't so.

Later you say the car is being "re-done" and will appear at future sports car meets. Solid fact on this point is that the Shaw car at present is a prize piece in the Museum of Speed attached to owner Tony Hulman's speedway office at Indianapolis. Under the direction of Curator Karl F. Kizer, this 8-CTF was carefully restored in the mid-Fifties to its 1939-40 vintage.

Re further contention on these items, it can be pointed out that the photo clearly shows 2 exhaust headers and pipes. Two heades the Shaw car did have, but only one pipe to the rear. Other differences existed. Your text refers to "entirely separate manifolding (inlet) each one feeding a 4 cyl." The Boyle/Shaw 8-CTF was built later than the one in your view. The inlet manifolds were interconnected (as, indeed was done at some time or other to all engines in the series).

I spent many hours bent over our 8-CTF back when. With the late Cotton Henning and Randall Beinke, it was my privilege to prepare the Shaw car for its Speedway success. Truly a beautiful thing, the 8-CTF, as we used it, was in the same breath a properly effective design for its day at Indianapolis. Within my knowledge, ours was the fourth (and probably last) complete Tipo 8-CTF assembled at Bologna prior to the war.

Hagerstown, Md. R.T. Jackson


So what does all this prove ? Not much, except that it seems everyone who had an 8-CTF, in the 50's thought that they had the Shaw car.

#89 McRonalds

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 14:01

Recently I found that picture in my archive - the only one so far I've seen showing both Milan 4CL at Indy 1946 - I hope you'll like it as much as I do. The guy sitting on the wall behind the second 4CL turing his back to the camera seem like Varzi to me.

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#90 O Volante

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 16:02

Apparently it is time again to try a short preliminary "conclusion" of this very amazing, but also somewhat frustrating enterprise!
Sometimes, when I can't sleep, four-digit numbers, invariably starting with three-o-three, are flashing through my brain ;) : It's really dragging me down that we can't solve the final part of the problem, despite that we are apparently so close ... In that situation, I find it extremely encouraging that still so many TNFers are posting, most notably fines and Gerr, who are still working so hard on the matter. Many, Many thanks :clap: :clap: :clap: !
To describe the work so far: It started with Cabianca's original question, resulting in fines' wonderful deduction, which seemed to solve everything. However, the close look on contemporary pictures rapidly led to the discussion of the "headrest"-question, which threw a lot of our research results in doubt again. In a kind of next round, more textual sources were checked and incorporated but without really suffice results. That led to other round of picture search and an even more detailled inspection of pictures, again without the much desired breakthrough, while Gerr's lecture of contemporary printed material from the US finally seems to have nailed the Hannaway car, but also confirms the doubts about the truthworthy-ness of contemporary claims of origin.
What to do next? Three suggestitions:
1 - The most important thing, I would think, is to continue the search for pictures of the cars at Indy, 1950 to 1953. Since we are now aware of details like the holes for the double exhaust pipes, the strange bulge etc., certain pictures would indeed allow us to come to definte judgements. So, to everybody who is reading this, please check your private archive, your books and journals and so on again, and let us know if something is coming up!
2 - While concentrating on the Indy pictures and reports, and generally the ChampCar activies, the assumed (and by now at least partly documented) racing of the 8CTF/8CLs in SCCA events has taken a backseat. For example, what does it mean when Gerr now finds 1959 reference to a change of a single-seater Maser into a potent sports-car? Remember, there is the so far unidentified fellow from from South Bend, Indian, who is said to have raced the 8CL in sports guise in amateur races ...
3 - With point 3 in mind, I would especially urge everybody with programms, entry lists or contemporary reports of the 1950s/early 1960s Watkins Glen, Bridgehampton and Thompson events to look for Maseratis in the libre races, which were invariably part of the show! For example, for 1956 (just from memory), I have a Baron de Teffé racing a Maserati in the Seneca Cup at Watkins Glen - what machinery was that for the Brazilian visitor? Please help!
That's it from me: who has other useful ideas and suggestions? Help to crack the nut finally - and if it's only that I can sleep better again ;) ...

#91 fines

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 08:45

McRonalds, that's a great picture! I knew there had to be two...

O Volante, somehow "good" to see that someone else is losing sleep as well...;)

#92 McRonalds

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 21:27

Here's another one:
Roaming trough my archive I found that scan; believing the caption it shows at Phil Cade with a Chrysler V8(!) powered Maserati in front of Russ Boss with a -c-type Jaguar at Thompson/Conneticut, October 1955. Sorry that quality of the scan is rather poor - but can anyone identfy this Maserati?

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#93 David McKinney

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Posted 25 June 2003 - 06:05

Maserati V8RI c/no 4501

#94 Gerr

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 04:54

More Maserati trivia, came across a copy of CIRCLE TRACK, June '86, with a nice article on the Joe Barzda California Speed Shop Spl. There is a little blurb about Barzda fitting the supercharger from one of his pair of Indianapolis Maseratis to his V8-60 KK Sprint in 1953. He ran the car this way until 1956 when he pulled the engine in favour of a Chevrolet V8.

#95 McRonalds

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 20:50

I have found some more Maserati pictures racing in the 'unrestricted' class races in the USA. I have no further information or captions but I'm sure some TNF members will find out.

The first shows Phil Cade with the V8Ri Maserati. The front looks much like the Siata-modified Maseratis of the Siena-Team in 1936/1937. I have no idea where the pictures was taken.

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George Weaver with his 4CLT/48 with which he won the 1956 Seneca Cup at Watkins Glen.

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Start of the Seneca Cup race at Watkins Glen. In the front row are the two V8Ri Maserstis drivenm by Phil Cade and George Weaver.

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#96 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 21:58

Originally posted by McRonalds
.....George Weaver with his 4CLT/48 with which he won the 1956 Seneca Cup at Watkins Glen.

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Don't you just love those road tyres on these racing cars?

A sign of hard times, of course... but are those experimental slicks on the rear?

#97 cabianca

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 04:43

Regarding American racing, let's not forget that Louis Unser ran a Maserati 8CTF at Pikes Peak in
1946-7-8-9. Don't know if this was one or two different cars. It had an Offy in 1948. The other years it had a Maserati engine. Twin exhausts. Any ideas on this. Obviously, Snowberger was involved.

#98 Gerr

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 14:03

Odd, somewhat interesting, Maserati bits, found while looking for something else.


From Cutter and Fendell's "Encyclopedia of Auto Racing Greats".......page 57.

"Bergere tried other cars but had no heart for racing after that. He sat out 1949 but seemed ready to make a comeback in 1950 when he aquired the Cotton Henning Maserati driven previously by Wilbur Shaw and Ted Horn. He cut a few hot laps and felt good but then his wife stopped it all. Shirley Bergere had always joked that she felt safer when Cliff was on a race track than when he was flying a plane. But this time she didn't feel good about the race. Cliff always followed her hunches. The next rainy day---when he knew he would get the headlines---he announced he was retired from racing."


From R&T, June 1958, page 63 in the classifieds.

"Maserati, 300hp, 2 stage blown G.P. car, Latest Formula 1 style body by Scaglietti. Ten wheels and tires. $10,000 worth of spares including patterns for all engine castings; 5 axle ratios, quick jacks. Complete rebuild in Italy by OSCA works for methanol or gas. Has not run since. $4000 including trailer. WORLD SPORT Car CENTER, 17333 Liver-nois Ave. Detroit 21, Mich."

Hannaway's car, maybe ?

Hope you are sleeping better, Fines and O Volante.

#99 O Volante

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Posted 10 October 2003 - 23:04

O dear ....
have to think on that ... again ... :confused:

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#100 Aanderson

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Posted 11 October 2003 - 03:46

Originally posted by Gerr
Ran across an article in R&T, September 1959, page 66, titled "Magnificent Maserati".
These are the interesting bits:



" As a matter of historical fact , the engine shown here----and the car it is installed in----proved to be a winning combination at Indianapolis : in 1939 and 1940, Wilbur Shaw drove this very car to victory at the Brickyard. And the consecutive victories of Shaw's Maserati have not been forgotten. At Indianapolis, if nowhere else, they never forget a winner. In all probability, if someone were to show up with the original Shaw Maserati at the 1960 500-miler, there would be those who would worry.

Though this may be amusing to speculate on, we rather doubt that it will happen. The car which raced under the name of the Boyle Special, has been turned out to pasture and will henceforth be only seen at sports-car races.

It is being redone so that it will qualify as a sports car. If this is handled successfully, there is a better than passing chance that this Maserati may win a few more races after all."

Further down the page:

"In 1938 was announced that Maserati was to make a fresh attack on the Grand Prix category with a new car, the type 8-CTF. This was revealed as an 8-cyl in-line, supercharged model with a 3-liter displacement. It was described then, and is yet, as being pretty and graceful as any racing car ever built. The engine was in effect, two of their 1500 4's placed end to end in a chassis with i.f.s. (with torsion bars) and a rear axle hung on quarter-elliptics. The engine had a bore and stroke of 69 X 100 mm, and there were two superchargers feeding it. These superchargers had entirely separate manifolding, each one feeding a 4 cyl."



The colour photo (by Chuck Daugherty) shows the top of the nose, engine and cowl. The car is red with body damage on the left side of the nose, a pair of flush-mount mirrors, aero windshield, two separate exhaust and the "bulge" on the frame rail cover.



"Huh ?????" I says to myself, "this is NOT 3032 ! I wonder if someone wrote a letter, correcting the mistake (s) ". Maybe there was a Fines or O Volante around in 1959.

No letter in the Oct. or Nov. issues, but Dec. had this.


A carping critic, perhaps, but I am aware of your constant desire for factual copy so I must advise you that somewhere you have been misinformed.

Your article, Magnificent Maserati (September) identifies the subject of your striking color shot as the Mike Boyle/Wilbur Shaw Maserati that won Indianapolis in 1939 and 1940. This simply hain't so.

Later you say the car is being "re-done" and will appear at future sports car meets. Solid fact on this point is that the Shaw car at present is a prize piece in the Museum of Speed attached to owner Tony Hulman's speedway office at Indianapolis. Under the direction of Curator Karl F. Kizer, this 8-CTF was carefully restored in the mid-Fifties to its 1939-40 vintage.

Re further contention on these items, it can be pointed out that the photo clearly shows 2 exhaust headers and pipes. Two heades the Shaw car did have, but only one pipe to the rear. Other differences existed. Your text refers to "entirely separate manifolding (inlet) each one feeding a 4 cyl." The Boyle/Shaw 8-CTF was built later than the one in your view. The inlet manifolds were interconnected (as, indeed was done at some time or other to all engines in the series).

I spent many hours bent over our 8-CTF back when. With the late Cotton Henning and Randall Beinke, it was my privilege to prepare the Shaw car for its Speedway success. Truly a beautiful thing, the 8-CTF, as we used it, was in the same breath a properly effective design for its day at Indianapolis. Within my knowledge, ours was the fourth (and probably last) complete Tipo 8-CTF assembled at Bologna prior to the war.

Hagerstown, Md. R.T. Jackson


So what does all this prove ? Not much, except that it seems everyone who had an 8-CTF, in the 50's thought that they had the Shaw car.


One thing that everyone seems to be missing here, in all of this: Wilbur Shaw, while dying in an airplane crash in Northeastern Indiana, about this time in 1954, was very much around at the time Karl Kizer acquired the Maserati 8CTF for the then new Indy Museum, and being President of IMS at the time, would have been in a position to have authenticated the car. Tony Hulman was certainly no stranger to searching out "just the right car", he having been one of the driving forces behind the formation of the Antique Automobile Club of America in 1935, and already having a comprehensive collection of documented historic cars at his Hulman Old Wheels Museum in Terre Haute. Karl Kizer was perhaps the best authority on the Speedway staff at the time, having been deeply involved in the racing scene in Indianapolis since the 1920's, in fact hosting any number of race teams in warehouse space at his Century Tire Company facilities in the 20's and 30's.

Another member of the Speedway's museum staff from its earliest days was the late Barney Wimmer, who had been a racing mechanic since the late 1920's, and still found time to crew-chief a car at Indy, and on the sprint car circuit. Barney knew so many of those cars first-hand, as did many others around the track. Add to this mix such personalities who were still around, some more elderly than others, such as the members of the technical committee of AAA and later the early USAC years, men who knew those cars like their own--I suspect they didn't have to look at any chassis or serial number, they knew the cars first-hand.

In short: At the time many of the really old cars in the Hall of Fame Museum were acquired, there were knowledgeable men around, or on the Speedway payroll, who knew those cars first hand.

On another note, I was privileged to be at the Miller Race Car Reunion in 1995, when Emil Andres was reunited with his Maserati Indy ride. What a neat thing that was, to see Andres at speed (about 90mph) on the Milwaukee mile, for a few laps, turning the clock backward. His comment to me after his run? "If that damned car had run as good when I had it, as it does now, I likely could have won!". I believe the car he drove was the blue Maser shown in pics elsewhere in this thread.

Art Anderson