74 replies to this topic

[Jordi #99]

Of course, we all know that Wolfgang "Taffy" von Trips tragically died along with 13 spectators.
What I'd like to know, without getting into "gory" details, is what exactly happened. I've always heard of Jim Clark and von Trips making contact, but how exactly? It was at curva Parabolica, but where did the car go? left, right? at what speed?

Jordi

[DNQ]

There is video footage on the internet availabe, its not gory thankfully, but it does show what happened. Approaching the Parabolica, the two cars touched (I think von Trips had made a poor start and was coming through the field...not sure on this though), both drivers were ejected. The Ferrari went up the bank on the left, rolled over into the crowd and tragically cut through the crowd...there was only a rope protecting the crowd from the cars.

Clark was OK, but had to flee Italy pretty quickly...

[Barry Boor]

From memory.... although von Trips did not make a great start, he was not far back in the field. It is assumed that he knew Jim Clark was behind him but thought that the superior power of the Sharknose would have left Clark well behind as the cars approached the Parabolica.

Again, assuming that there was a space behind him, he moved out in order to position the car for the upcoming turn. However, Clark had slipstreamed the Ferrari and was still just behind and as von Trips moved left, his left rear wheel made contact with Jimmy's right front and the accident became inevitable.

Anyone with more accurate knowledge, and books to refer to is more than welcome to contradict this old man's memory!

[Barry Lake]

I think you will find that the spectators were behind a wire mesh fence.

Michael Ferner might be able to help with this. He frequents the von Trips Museum where they have a lot of material on it, including photos and a recreation of the lead up to the crash with model cars.

I imagine it would have been done accurately. When I was there I had so much to see, so little time, I didn't have a chance to examine it closely.

Some of the von Trips books have gone into it quite thoroughly as well.

But I also would be interested to see footage of how it all occurred.

Too often people bend the truth a bit to try to protect the reputations of people involved.

I believe it basically came down to one of the drivers making a passing move, the other not having seen him, moving across on him. A racing 'incident', in other words.

Over to someone who has studied it more closely.

[Barry Boor]

Barry, I thought the fence was just wooden stakes held together with wire.

[Barry Lake]

You could be right, Barry B. In my memory it looks rather flimsy, but I remember it as being taller than the spectators and some type of mesh - a sort of 'chicken wire' perhaps?

Your previous post overlapped mine, beating me into the thread. What you have said is close to the way I remember it being described, but I didn't trust my memory enough to spell it out.

I seem to remember this having been discussed, along with some photos, on a previous thread.

[Wolf]

I think Barry is correct here (although I cannot be positive, since the photo I have of Gurney passing the wrecked Ferrari has blurry backgound)... And I have seen a photo of entry to Parabolica in '62 with chicken-wire fence, too (and a TV camera in the spot it was year before). Interesting thing is that Daley in his 'Cruel Sport' goes on to claim that 'The television camera shown in that photograph shot everything, but the cars were moving so fast that every frame is blurred and it is impossible to know exactly what happened.' A small nagging thing, at least to me, is that camera is positioned on extension of the straight coming from Ascari bend, and hence in the position to have the least 'inteference' from cars' speed (cars coming head-on)...

[Eric McLoughlin]

I have never seen any "video" (ie TV) footage of this incident. Although I'm sure Italian TV covered the event live, it looks like no video recording was made or retained - as was the norm in those days (video tape was expensive). However, there is some film newsreel footage, from two camera positions. One camera seems to be positioned just as the cars start the turn into the Parabolica. From this viewpoint, all that can be seen is a group of cars flashing past follwed by a cloud of dust as the Ferrari and Lotus go off. The footage is blurred too so nothing of significance can be seen. A clearer view can be seen from the second camera position. This camera is in what is now the traditional location for the TV camera, at the end of the long straight that leads down to the Parabolica looking back up the road towards what is now the Ascari chicane. This camera captures the incident just after the cars touch and shows the Ferrari flying through the air, rotating and in an inverted position. I'm pretty sure it was these gyrations that would have flung Von Tripps out of the cockpit. The car crashes down heavily, upside down, onto the centre of the race track. Clark's Lotus seems to just run along the grass bank (no Armco in those days) eventually slowing to a halt. I'm pretty sure Clark remained in the car and was not thrown out. Mercifully, because of the dust and dirt thrown up by the accident, its awful effects on the spectators near the fence is completely hidden.

[DNQ]

I have some footage on the computer that I found at a website a while back. It's not pleasent to watch, but thankfully it's not gory. I'll try and get it up in the next few days, It might shed some light on what happened and put it into perspective for those who havent seen it.

Regarding the fence, I had always assumed it was just rope/wire loosely keeping the spectators out...but look at this



Not sure how accurate that is, but nonetheless, its certainly more than rope. But it wouldnt do anything to stop a rolling Ferrari

Such a terrible accident.

[Wolf]

DNQ, if You don't have the webspace to do so, mail it to me ( wolf@email.atlasf1.com ) and I'll post it this evening...

BTW, the pic of Gurney I have shows the Ferrari standing at the verge of the track... If it ploughed through the fence, what would be the point in moving it back where it would put other drivers in danger?

[Eric McLoughlin]

The car rotated along the fence but flew back towards the centre of the road. Its final resting position was right in the middle of the track. Von Tripps' body ended up half on the grass verge and half on the road. The spectators killed had been pressing forward against the fence to get a better view of the cars coming down towards the Parabolica. If the footage I've seen ends up being posted it should be obvious from the images what happened although, as I previously said, the view of the car running along the fence is obscured by dust and debris.

[cheesy poofs]

IIRC, wasn't Clark also thrown from his Lotus ?

[jaybie]

Hi all.

I am new here.

Just reading this post remimded me that there is some very short amateur footage of this crash from the crowd side.

You can get to see von tripps car rolling towards the camera. It really is quite dramatic...Im sure someone else around has seen it?

I cant quite remember, but I dont think there was a fence in the foreground....

[Barry Lake]

Re the pic posted by DNQ. I don't think this is very accurate. The grass verge from track to spectators was far wider than this. I think the bank was higher, and my memory of the fence is that it was something like this, but taller than the people and with larger openings in the mesh.

From memory only, however.

In the pics posted on the other thread, there was an object on the side of the road (right hand side relative to direction of travel, lh side of screen) that I asked about, but didn't get an answer.

I had forgotten about Clark also being thrown from his car. Perhaps my mystery object is Clark.

At some time I have seen footage of this crash and Eric's description is as I remember it. Trips' car cartwheeled along the fence, then back down the bank to the grass verge, near the road.

[Jordi #99]

I have only seen pictures, and the distance between the track and the fence seems to be much wider...

[Wielki Wódz]

There are two pictures from von Trips/Clark accident: java script:OpenNewWindow('makabrk/porcja3/WvonTMonza61.htm','600','350')
(click third thumbnail on the top row; to see 2nd picture click an arrow below the text)
The second picture shows de Beaufort's Porsche avoiding accident's aftermath - there is an object visible on the right hand side of the road, but I don't know what (who?) it is.

[cheesy poofs]

That's the body of von Trips lying there. It is not Clark because the scostman had a dark helmet whereas von Trips one was light gray.

[Barry Lake]

Isn't that von Trips on the other side of the road?

[fines]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
From memory.... although von Trips did not make a great start, he was not far back in the field. It is assumed that he knew Jim Clark was behind him but thought that the superior power of the Sharknose would have left Clark well behind as the cars approached the Parabolica.

Again, assuming that there was a space behind him, he moved out in order to position the car for the upcoming turn. However, Clark had slipstreamed the Ferrari and was still just behind and as von Trips moved left, his left rear wheel made contact with Jimmy's right front and the accident became inevitable.

Anyone with more accurate knowledge, and books to refer to is more than welcome to contradict this old man's memory!

It is my understanding that this explanation is pretty much spot on. It may have been that Trips was already braking while moving left, when Clark's lighter Lotus would be able to brake later, which could have contributed to the accident. One would think that an experienced driver like Trips would've checked in his mirrors before braking and changing lane, perhaps he was just underestimating the ability of the Lotus to dive deep into the corners?

My recollection of the spectator area also says "wire mesh", but I could be wrong. I'm planning one more trip to the Trips museum (pun unintended) this year, weather permitting, will check on this.

[Barry Lake]

That fence isn't as tall as I remembered it, nor is it as far from the track as I had thought.

Ridiculously dangerous situation when you know what we know today. But I have stood in worse spots. In fact I can remember walking down the right hand side of the main straight at Monza, on the track side of what little armco was there, and with my back to the GP traffic, on my way to the first chicane, with a pass that allowed me to do so. Even then, I was wondering about the sanity of such an action. But it was my first visit to Manza, after all. When in Rome and all that.

By the way, nice to see you back in action fines. Wish I could go to the museum with you again on your next visit. Weather permitting? Is it snowing there? We have heatwaves and massive bushfires here.

[fines]

It's about 20°F right now, but beautiful all day with clear skies and sunshine. But if it starts snowing I'm a bit in trouble, cause I never use winter tyres. I'm okay with that, but my insurance company will not in case of trouble. Last year I went there through a snow storm, and perhaps I was just lucky, while many cars and a big heavy truck were stranded on the Autobahn, one BMW heavily crushed. I resolved not to try my luck like that again...

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Wielki Wódz
There are two pictures from von Trips/Clark accident: java script:OpenNewWindow('makabrk/porcja3/WvonTMonza61.htm','600','350')
(click third thumbnail on the top row; to see 2nd picture click an arrow below the text)
The second picture shows de Beaufort's Porsche avoiding accident's aftermath - there is an object visible on the right hand side of the road, but I don't know what (who?) it is.

We all know that **** happens in motor racing...but what sort of enthusiast wants to make a website based on this sort of photo?

[McRonalds]

I found two foto sequences of that - but none of them shows the beginning the crash. The first one is from Jörg-Thomas Födisch/Reinold Louis 'Graf Berghe von Trips'. It starts when both cars (Clark, Trips) leaf the road. In the later pictures you can see Jim Clark walking over to Trips' wrecked Ferrari and taking a look at it. He's still near by when the wreck was pushed off the road later.
The second one is from an italian newspaper from that time. The Ferrari turned over when it ran up the hill and Trips was thrown out. The last picture was taken moments before the wreck crashed into the spectators.

http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_01.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_02.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_03.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_04.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_05.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_06.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_07.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_08.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_09.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_10.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_11.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_12.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_13.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_14.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_15.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_16.jpg

http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_25.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_26.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_27.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_28.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_29.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_30.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_31.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_32.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_33.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_34.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_35.jpg
http://www.totaaal-e...i_61_ita_36.jpg

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David Beard


We all know that **** happens in motor racing...but what sort of enthusiast wants to make a website based on this sort of photo?

Well said David

[Wielki Wódz]

David and Roger, our website doesn't base 'on this sort of photo'. This is a small part only (one of twenty or so sections), and not most important.
I know, there are diverse opinions about publishing 'this sort' of documents. Our 'editorial board' discussed this and decided to continue this section, as a part of racing history, not for other reasons. We're trying succesfully to make the best racing website in Poland, although have started only year ago. Obviously, you must take my word for it, if you don't read Polish.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Wielki Wódz
Obviously, you must take my word for it, if you don't read Polish.

I was in Warsaw 2 weeks ago..didn't enjoy pierogi much, either.

[Doug Nye]

Jim Clark: "I managed to get a good start...and first Richie, then Phil, Jack and Ricardo went past me between the first and second laps. My engine was going really well that day, and though Taffy passed me on the Lesmo curves I managed to keep up with him round the back, down the dip...and round the Vialone curve. I was still on his tail slipstreaming round the Vialone to keep up as we came down at full speed to the braking point for the (Parabolica)... By this time I was preparing to overtake him, and my front wheel was almost level with his back wheel as he started to brake. Suddenly he began to pull over towards me and he ran right into the side of me. There was no other car involved....

I honestly feel that Taffy never realised that I was up with him. I am sure that when he passed me further back he had decided that as he had passed the Lotus, and was in the faster car, I would be left behind. I think he completely discounted me, and it was so early in the race he was determined to catch up the field.

...we touched wheels and oddly enough I had a split second to think about the accident before it actually happened. I thought: 'God, he can't do this'. I remember mentally trying to shout at him to look in his mirror and see me. I had the brakes on hard by now and I just couldn't do anything, for he was braking hard too...

...as he came across I just couldn't get out of the way. There was a tremndous blur, and the Lotus began to spin round and round, along the grass, coming to rest at the side of the circuit. Taffy's car shot off the road and into a fence which the crowd were leaning on before bouncing back on to the circuit, leaving the driver lying on the grass.

I remember jumping out...and running over with a marshal and trying to drag Taffy's car back off the track...an automatic reaction, but even then I realised I could do nothing for Taffy, and I didn't really want to go over to where he lay..."

Crucially Jimmy did not define which side Trips moved across from, left or right. IT would appear that he was in fact to Jimmy's right and moved across - apparently inadvertently - and squeezed Jimmy onto the left-side grass grass, the Lotus's right front wheel clipping the Ferrari's left side rear and turning the Ferrari to the left in consequence. Once onto the grass the situation proved to be irrecoverable.

Jimmy was literally smuggled out from Milan that evening in Jack Brabham's private 'plane, having been hidden in its cabin earlier after access 'airside' on a pretext. Colin Chapman was the instigator, fearing that Jimmy might be held for questioning since the Ferrari had killed so many spectators in addition to its driver.

It's clear from the pictures that Jimmy's recollection was substantially accurate. The pix do not demonstrate how the incident actually began with the cars already braking - they braked way back before the corner in those days. The spectator area behind that fence was on top of a raised bank, the top of which was not terribly wide. In one of the late pix you can see spectators looking to their rear, in fact at spectators who had been struck by the rolling, pin-wheeling car, and thrown off the back of the bank down onto the broad walkway and picnic area there.

Note that the object lying on the left side of the track in the head-on pix is a body panel, not a driver's body. Also that the Ferrari's tall unbraced roll-over bar folded flat upon inverted impact, the car having landed on poor Trips then threw his body clear on the next roll as it bounced on its way.

A very, very unhappy day - news of which I recall vividly, and sadly.

DCN

[Jordi #99]

Clark's comments give a great explanation...

The second series of pictures is frightening. Seeing the last photo...

[scheivlak]

Doug, again your knowledge, insight and resources are invaluable.....

[Wielki Wódz]

Originally posted by scheivlak
Doug, again your knowledge, insight and resources are invaluable.....

Indeed, it was worth to run the risk of sarcastic comments from David...

[DNQ]

Here we go, I've found the two videos I've got, and uploaded them.

Both are pretty small, one or two megabytes each, so even us dialup users won't have a problem getting them. They'll both play in Windows Media Player, so you don't have to fiddle around with codecs etc.

The first video shows Von Trips car spinning back down after bouncing off the crowd, from a camera stationed at the end of the Parabolica. This is a black and white camera.

There is a second camera angle in this video, obviously filmed from an amatuer camera man in the crowd, who was standing right at the point of the hit with the crowd. The video shows the car barrel rolling up the bank into the crowd. It's quite a harrowing video, and I hold concerns over what happened to the camera man...anyway, just realised, its just the same as the pictures posted by McRonalds.

http://cfm.globalf1....61_Accident.mpg

The second video is basically just a race synopsis, covering Hills championship, the race start, and of course the accident. There is no extra footage, its just the same B&W camera from the first clip, but there is some extra commentary that tells us a bit more on what happened. It also shows once again the type of fences on the track side - wire mesh seems to some it up nicely.

http://cfm.globalf1...._Highlights.mpg

I hope these videos put it all into perspective - it doesnt actually show anything that hasnt been covered with pictures, but it does put it into moving footage...

[DNQ]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Note that the object lying on the left side of the track in the head-on pix is a body panel, not a driver's body. Also that the Ferrari's tall unbraced roll-over bar folded flat upon inverted impact, the car having landed on poor Trips then threw his body clear on the next roll as it bounced on its way.

Thanks Doug..the video I have is low quality, and I had always assumed it to be Clark. I also recall reading he was thrown out, but obviously that wanst the case. In any event, he was unhurt.

[William Hunt]

Thanks Doug, for that excellent feedback. It's always a pleasure reading your posts.

As for that Polish GP site, I think it's sick to publish those pictures.

[Wielki Wódz]

what sort of enthusiast wants to make a website based on this sort of photo?
it's sick to publish those pictures

Gentlemen, you imply that I'm a kind of pervert... Why? There were hundreds of accidents discussed on this forum. There are threads dedicated to accidents only - like this one. There are pictures and movies on accidents published. All those events have really happened and we're trying to find their detailed circumstances out. I'm still learning of racing history, thanks to experts who know and share their knowledge with me.
So, publishing 'this sort' of pictures in books, magazines etc., with professional commentary, is a contribution to historical searchings. Publishing the same at a website, as a small part of its contents, is not? Sorry, I don't understand. Can you explain me, what the problem is?

[anjakub]

Oryginally posted by Wieki Wódz
We're trying succesfully to make the best racing website in Poland

...with this macabre page.
The joke or the self-admiration?

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Wielki Wódz

Gentlemen, you imply that I'm a kind of pervert... Why?...............

........... Publishing the same at a website, as a small part of its contents, is not? Sorry, I don't understand. Can you explain me, what the problem is?

There are many here who can comment better than I, but I think the answer lies in the second paragraph of Jordi's first post, when he says - "without getting into "gory" details"
The part of your site which upsets quite a few of us us consists of nothing but "gory" details.
End of story.

[cheesy poofs]

Thanks Doug for your insightful knowledge.

Obviously, one thing is very clear for me. Clark was never thrown from his car. I had always heard that he had been.

[Wolf]

Kpy, for example I have a book 'Cruel sport' by, I believe, respected photographer Robert Daley, whose whole chapter consists of such photos...

I took a quick, and rather superficial, glance at the site in question (knowing next to nothing Polish, but recognizing some words), and I've seen history section with rather large article on Spa and another on H.P. Müller, technical section with few articles, inluding one on engines, results section (and few other sections regarding current F1 affairs, like press conferences and stuff)...

I do admit to be rather uncomfortable with the 'dark side' of the Sport, but I do not consider that site in question crossed the line that much to warrant such outraged response. Especialy, since we had pictures of a dear hit by Stedfan Johansson posted here recently, not to mention morbid curiosity that has been on quite a few occasions shown for Tom Pryce incident and footage thereof; just to name few instances...

[jaybie]

I have looked at these photos and cannot see where the fence was damaged in any of them??
Did he go through/along the fence behind the last tree we see in the photographs?

There is an umbrella in both the video and the pictures which seems to be at the point of impact, but I cant make out if it is the same one.

There doesnt seem to be any activity alont the fence from the crowd, even after the marshalls and clark had time to get to the accident scene and walk around..

does anyone know if he went into the fence behind these trees?

[Barry Lake]

Pretending these things didn't happen doesn't bring anyone back to life.

And it is all part of history - which has its tragedy as well as glory.

I saw nothing "gory" on that Polish web site, nor have I seen anything gory on The Nostalgia Forum - with the exception of the hapless deer. But I don't object to that, either. It is all a part of understanding these things.

Where would we be if the people who have become doctors and nurses and the like had never wanted to see anything "gory" in their lives? Who would look after us when we are sick or injured? Or if these people, having made it into those vocations, "freaked out" at the sight of anything unpleasant?

I find it strange that people can not face up to something that actually happened, but can sit and watch the crime, violence, destruction and mayhem that is dished up every day in movies and on TV. I find these movies offensive. And they portray real life situations in totally artificial ways, thus failing to teach people how to cope with such events should they happen in real life.

Give me reality any day. There are things to be learned from that.

[Wolf]

Barry, God forbid I was implying TNF was gory; I was arguing that the 'gore' of photos posted on Polish site isn't worse than some posted in here... Anyways, in both cases, content was duly announced (in dear pic by warning, in Polish site by name of the section, understandable even to most non-Polish speakers*).

* one cannot click on a link named 'makabryczny kacik' (I venture to guess it means 'macabre corner', and not expect something macabre...

[Barry Lake]

Wolf

I thought I was agreeing with you!

And you are right. No one is being forced to look at these things.

But, over the years, reading race reports that have glossed over the sadder events in motor sport have left many unanswered questions in my mind. Now, thanks to the www, some of those questions are being answered.

I thank the people who put in the effort to make this information available.

There's a lot to be learned about human psychology in all of this, also. As jaybie notes, looking along the fence there is no obvious sign that spectators have been killed. It seems that as the bodies have been thrown back by the impact (as Doug Nye noted), others have moved into the spots they vacated, to look at the scene on the track.

Another interesting thing is the lack of any sign of spectators taking evading action of any kind as the cars rush towards them. I know it happens very quickly, but I think there is an element of disbelief there also. They are thinking it;s not really happening.

The lack of damage to the fence can be understood when you see the footage I have seen somewhere, some time. The Ferrari, as the pics show, sort of rolled along the fence, rather than going through it. If it was even a metre further back they might have been OK.

[Jordi #99]

I don't think Wielki's site is gory. I think that as long as there's a warning message, it's fine. I have been to the site and nothing happened. It's life, we have to cope with it, like it or not.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Wielki Wódz

Indeed, it was worth to run the risk of sarcastic comments from David...

I have learnt very recently that, because for many here English is the second language, things can get lost in translation. Sarcasm was not my intention, and I was trying to joke about the pierogis (tasted only in a Warsaw factory canteen!)
I just don't like photos of fatal accidents...I know they happen, they can't be shovelled under the carpet....but there used to seem to be an unwritten rule in motor sport magazines that the worst details weren't shown. I always thought that this was the correct approach, anything more being left to those who didn't really care about the sport. Call me old fashioned...

[Wolf]

Bary, regarding the fence, it doesn't look strong enough to stop a wheelbarrow, let alone GP car. I presume the steep earth bank forced the car into the roll (like aeronautical manoevre), rather than to slide into the fence, in which case it would pass through it... Lack of security awareness, even in the mayhem of the accident is also made visible by the fact that the accident area remained filled with spectators for the remainder of the race... Maybe authorities hoped the lightning doesn't strike twice in the same spot (as a matter of curiosity, two people I know of, one even being a relative, were twice stricken by it), but it seems too nonchalant...

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by DNQ
I have some footage on the computer that I found at a website a while back. It's not pleasent to watch, but thankfully it's not gory. I'll try and get it up in the next few days, It might shed some light on what happened and put it into perspective for those who havent seen it.

Regarding the fence, I had always assumed it was just rope/wire loosely keeping the spectators out...but look at this



Not sure how accurate that is, but nonetheless, its certainly more than rope. But it wouldnt do anything to stop a rolling Ferrari

Such a terrible accident.

Isn't this a model diorama ?

[Bladrian]

I have experienced Clark's accident several times ...... and there is absolutely nothing he could have done to avoid it. Coming up to the Parabolica it is common to find a driver in the middle of the track, 'protecting' his line into the corner. If that driver then moves left in order to gain the maximum braking space, and you are already there, having slipstreamed him up to the Parabolica - there will be a collision. And, from that point on, both drivers become passengers in the resulting accident. And as long as the driver in front at the 'Bolica does not watch his mirrors like a hawk, this particular accident will keep on happening. Von Trip's mistake, I'm afraid.

When was the last time I had this happen to me? Ah, just a while ago - as I was driving Grand Prix Legends at Monza! (Yes, we GPL'ers DO experience sounds and sights the non-converted cannot ..... )

[Bladrian]

Originally posted by David Beard


I have learnt very recently that, because for many here English is the second language, things can get lost in translation. Sarcasm was not my intention, and I was trying to joke about the pierogis (tasted only in a Warsaw factory canteen!)
I just don't like photos of fatal accidents...I know they happen, they can't be shovelled under the carpet....but there used to seem to be an unwritten rule in motor sport magazines that the worst details weren't shown. I always thought that this was the correct approach, anything more being left to those who didn't really care about the sport. Call me old fashioned...

Couldn't agree more. I refuse to look at accident pictures - having been unwilling witness on race tracks, I don't need to seek out gory reminders.

You're old fashioned, David - as am I. Has nobody ever told you that being old fashioned is a GOOD thing?

[Wielki Wódz]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Give me reality any day. There are things to be learned from that.

Thanks for your support given, Barry, Wolf and Jordi. There's nothing to add from me. I didn't want to change opponents mind, I wanted to hear arguments...

David - sorry for misunderstanding. Remember, there is a significant difference between pierogi in a factory canteen and genuine pierogi

[Don Capps]

I think the issue of "gore" is one which we often duck for many good and varied reasons; however, the reality is that the past of motor racing is littered with those paid the price for their own errors, the errors of others, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In the past, most specialist and mass circulation publications avoided carrying pictures of fatal accidents as a matter of policy as well as principle. Naturally there have been exceptions at time and in most places (the aftermath of the Tommy Spychiger accident at the 1965 Monza 1000kms being a notable exception along with poor Lorenzo Bandini at Monte Carlo in 1967).

Like many, I choose to avoid such photographs whenever possible. I also recognize their existence and that it is not always a matter of "blood lust" which caused the images to be captured, but often simply an inbred journalistic reaction to something happening in front of them. It is usually the purpose for which such photographs are used that makes the difference. As a historian, I think that I can usually get a good sense as to whether the photographs are serving a legitimate purpose or simply there for the "effect." A good example is the selection of photographs used in the analysis of the Bill Vukovich accident. The which "showed anything" were appropriate to the task at hand and not dwelled upon or presented in an exploitive manner.

The event at hand, Monza 1961, has folks saying things that I literally was unaware of as far as the accident went. I was not aware that so many thought that Clark had been thrown from his car. The discussion over the spectator site also was something that puzzled me, in part since I was familiar with the area first hand.

That it was an accident which can be contributed to perhaps a nonoseconds lapse of situational awareness and the corresponding decision to change position on the track to take a more advantageous line through the corner is faint comfort to those who died. However, such is the nature of life. We are so prone to attach guilt or blame to literally every action on the track these days that it is often overlooked that the machines simple respond to the commands of those who guide them -- men who are extremely talented, but still falliable.