11 replies to this topic

[Egon Thurner]

Digging a bit in Bignan-matters I found the following, by Michael Sedgwick:

For 1922 the company (Bignan) fitted a Causan-designed 2-litre unit with desmodromic valve gear, from which 70 bhp was extracted; this car retired in the GP de Tourisme, though (Paul) Gros took 3rd place (and the class honours) in the Belgian Grand Prix. De Marne also drove a Bignan into 4th place in the Bol d'Or. (That was 1922, for sure) ....

(And then going on: ) The desmodromique had gone by 1923, replaced by ..... This was the most successful of the competition Bignans and in the first Le Mans 24-Hour Race Gros and de Tornaco (BTW: is there any connection to Max?) finished f3rd (And that happened 1923, for sure) .....

So, mentioning the 'Belgian Grand Prix', he is clearly speaking of 1922, isn't he ? What the hell does he mean? Even if he is referring to the 24-Hours race of Spa (that often is called 'Belgian Touring Car Grand Prix'), he is two years too early - it started in 1924 (and Gros never finished third there!).

Any idea?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Egon - on August 12, 1922 the Belgians held a 603.200 km touring car grand prix at Francorchamps, "Le Grand Prix pour voitures de tourisme". A few other races were held, incl. hill climbs. Marc -our expert on Belgian matters- should have better information.

[David McKinney]

The 1922 race in question was over forty laps of a 9.3-mile (15km) ancestor of the Spa-Francorchamps circuit beloved to us all. The 3-litre Chenard-Walckers set the pace, but it was one of the Impéria-Abadal entries, driven by Baron Raymond de Tornaco and Barthélémy, which won, with the Lagache/Robert Chenard-Walcker second. The 2-litre Gros/Dumont desmodromic Bignan was the only other finisher.

I'm not sure about your reference to Max, Egon, but Raymond de Tornaco was the father of Baron Charles de Tornaco, one of the best-known Belgian drivers in the early '50s.

[Egon Thurner]

David, Charles de Tornaco was the one I had in my mind - must have switches names between him an Max de Terra.

And about the "Le Grand Prix pour voitures de tourisme" - I really never heard of it, and thought always, my racelist is nearly complete ...

Thank you both, and now waiting for Marc ...

[Egon Thurner]

David,

Robert (second driver in the Chenard&Walcker) probably was Robert Glaszmann, am I right ?

And Gros' codriver Dumont was Maurice Dumont ?

[Marcor]

Yes It's my speciality. I've detailed reports of the race, even a lap-by-lap. But all in French so here's a quick sump up.

The race was the GP du RACB for touring cars but with some special regulations: a 4-stroke engine was required and there were 2 classes, 2 or 3 Litre.

The date was August 12, 1922. The 600 km race (40 laps) started at 9 o'clock, two by two at 30 seconds intervals. The weather was nice, the day was sunny.

The entries
3-Litre class
#1: Christian Dauvergne, rider-mechanic = Alvaro Sala, Chenard & Walcker
#2: Leon Derny, r-m = De Cerf (Decerf), Imperia-Abadal
#3: "Elgy" (Jacques Ledure), r-m Paul Pecault, Auto Métallurgique
#4: André Lagache, r-m = Robert, Chenard & Walcker
#5: Baron Raymond de Tornaco, r-m = Barthélemy Bruyère, Imperia-Abadal
#6: F. Gheude, r-m = Gustave Leys, Auto Métallurgique
#7: Etienne Grua, r-m = Arnotte, Imperia-Abadal
#8: G. Cheville, r-m Léon Queune, Auto Métallurgique

2-Litre class
#9 Gros, r-m = Dumont, Bignan
#10: Arthur Duray, Franville, Miesse
#11 Jean Martin, r-m = Goury, Bignan
#12: Edmond Miesse, Charles Crabbe, Miesse
#15: X (Nougué ?), withdrawn

DNA: Delage, with possible drivers René Thomas, Madame Agnez and X
DNA: Somea.

Auto-Metallurgique, Imperia-Abadal, Miesse and Somea were Belgian car manufacturers.
Chenard & Walcker, Bignan and Delage represented the French Industry.

Starting orders
9 H: Lagache and Derny
9 H 30": "Elgy" and Dauvergne
9 H 01': de Tornaco and Gheude
9 H 01' 30": Grua and Cheville
9 h 02': Gros and Miesse
9 H 02' 30": Martin and Duray.

There were lot's of retirements in the beginning of the race. After 10 laps Elgy, Gheude, Cheville, d'Auvergne and Grua had already left the race. Two cars were fighting for the leadership: Lagache and de Tornaco. On lap 23 the race was decided, Lagache having to stop and lost many times because of valve problems. Only 3 cars finished the race: de Tornaco, Lagache and Gros. At 5 PM, the road was reopened to the public traffic. Duray and Miesse had then run 35 and 30 laps.

Results:
3-litre
1- Baron Raymond de Tornaco (Imperia Abadal) 6h 44m 38s, 88.924 km/h
2- André Lagache (Chenard & Walcker) 7h 17m 16s

DNF- Christian Dauvergne (Chenard & Walcker)
DNF- F. Gheude (Auto Métallurgique)
DNF- G. Cheville (Auto Métallurgique)
DNF- Etienne Grua (Imperia Abadal)
DNF- "Elgy" (Auto Métallurgique)
DNF- Leon Derny (Imperia Abadal)

2-litre
1- Gros (Bignan) 7h 42m 21s

NC (flagged)- Edmond Miesse (Miesse)
NC (flagged)- Arthur Duray (Miesse)

DNF- Jean Martin (Bignan)

Tragic conclusion after the GP
Edmond Miesse, son of the constructor, had a heavy road accident three days after the race in the Ardennes. The driver of the car, Charles Crabbe, the riding-mechanic of the GP, was killed instantly, he was 20 year-old. A woman passenger was also seriously hurt.

The race meetings in belgium during 1922
1)- April 9th: Coupe Flamand at Oostmalle organised by the Antwerp Motor Club (1 flying km), the race was postponed !

2)- May 7th: Mont-Theux hillclimb, organised by the Union Motocycliste Liégeoise, motorbike events but cars were allowed to compete

3)- June 11th: Grand Prix motocycliste de Spa, Malchamps, organised by le Moto Club Verviétois. Motorbike meetings for the FMB members, including cyclecars (1 or 2-seater up to 1100 cc)

4)- June 24, 25 and 26: Meeting de Spa organised by the Royal Automobile Club de Spa (12th Coupe de la Meuse), including the Malchamps hillclimb.

5)- First days of July: Rallye d'Ostende, including a 500-meters sprint (July 8th)

6)- July 10th: meeting d'Ostende, flying km sprint

7)- August 12th: GP du RACB at the circuit Francorchamps-Malmédy-Stavelot

8)- September 9, 10 and 11: Meeting de Dinant, including the Falmignoul hillclimb and the 1-km sprint at Gozin

9)- September 24th: Coupe Flamand at Oostmalle organised by the Antwerp Motor Club (1 flying km), the race was again postponed !

10)- October 1st: Coupe Flamand at Oostmalle organised by the Antwerp Motor Club (1 flying km), the race was cancelled !

11)- October 15th: "Thiers des Crichtons" (Crickions) hillclimb, organised by the Motor Union de Liège, motorbike meeting including cyclecars (banned to FMB and RACB members).

12)- October 22th, Journée des Records du RACB at Oostmalle, 1 km sprint, record attempts organised by the RACB. Winner was René Thomas (Delage).

[Egon Thurner]

Marcor, thank you very much. That's more, than I could expect. Great service!

[David McKinney]

Great stuff, Marc
But two questions
Were the second men in each car really riding mechanics, or were they second drivers? It was a long race, after all - though perhaps not so much by 1922 standards
Secondly, was de Tornaco's associate the same as the person with whom de Tornaco raced Bignans at Le Mans and Spa in 1924, and who later raced Sénéchal, FASTO, Bugatti and Chrysler cars in long-distance events, and whose name I thought was François Barthélémy?

[Marcor]

1- They were "only" riding mechanics.

2- No. Barthélemy Bruyère and Francis Barthélemy were not the same men.
Barthélemy is a first name, so the confusion !!!

A driver called Francis Barthélemy raced a 4 cylinders 2 L 16-valves Bignan at Le Mans and Spa in 1924 with Baron de Tornaco. As you said, he later raced Sénéchal, FASTO, Bugatti and Chrysler cars in long-distance events. Here some of his results.
1926: GP de Belgique des 24 H: DNF (with Thellusson), Sénéchal 750 cc
1927: GP de Belgique des 24 H: 4th in 2-litre class (with Gros), FASTO A3S
1927: 24 H de Paris: 4th overall (with Gros), FASTO A3S
1928: GP de Belgique des 24 H: 2nd in 1500 cc class (with Evrard), Bugatti 37
1929: GP de Belgique des 24 H: 4th in 3 L class (with Porta), Bugatti 44
1930: GP de Belgique des 24 H: DNF (with Renard), Chrysler.

In 1925 Barthélemy Bruyère raced an 4 cylinder 1096 cc Impéria 8/12 HP with John Duff at Spa, 4th in 1100 cc class.

I think it's 2 different men.

And don't mistake for Barthélemy Lecomte, who raced a FN car in 1925 and 1926 (Fracorchamps and Spa meeting) and was a development FN factory worker.

[Marc Ceulemans]

A driver called Francis Barthélemy raced a 4 cylinders 2 L 16-valves Bignan at Le Mans and Spa in 1924 with Baron de Tornaco. As you said, he later raced Sénéchal, FASTO, Bugatti and Chrysler cars in long-distance events. Here some of his results. 1926: GP de Belgique des 24 H: DNF (with Thellusson), Sénéchal 750 cc 1927: GP de Belgique des 24 H: 4th in 2-litre class (with Gros), FASTO A3S 1927: 24 H de Paris: 4th overall (with Gros), FASTO A3S 1928: GP de Belgique des 24 H: 2nd in 1500 cc class (with Evrard), Bugatti 37 1929: GP de Belgique des 24 H: 4th in 3 L class (with Porta), Bugatti 44 1930: GP de Belgique des 24 H: DNF (with Renard), Chrysler.

Great stuff, Marc
But two questions
Were the second men in each car really riding mechanics, or were they second drivers? It was a long race, after all - though perhaps not so much by 1922 standards
Secondly, was de Tornaco's associate the same as the person with whom de Tornaco raced Bignans at Le Mans and Spa in 1924, and who later raced Sénéchal, FASTO, Bugatti and Chrysler cars in long-distance events, and whose name I thought was François Barthélémy?

I've just read this old topic and I must admit we were wrong about our statements.

Barthelemy Bruyere, the associate of Baron Raymond de Tornaco in 1922 was, indeed, the same as the person with whom de Tornaco raced Bignans at Le Mans and Spa in 1924, and who later raced Sénéchal, Imperia, FASTO, Bugatti and Chrysler cars in long-distance events. You must forget Francis Barthelemy, who was member of the AGACI (association of French independant driver based at Paris), but only in the late 1930s.

Barthelemy Bruyere was the riding mechanic of Theodore Pilette in pre-WW1 races (Indy 1913). After the death of his boss in 1921, he continued working at the "Anciens Ets Pilette", which was for a long time a car representative of foreign firms (French and US cars). In 1922, Barthelemy Bruyere was again, as we said, riding-mechanic in the GP de Belgique du RACB, his driver being Raymond de Tornaco.

After that, Barthelemy Bruyere also took part to long races as The 24 Hours at Spa, Le Mans (with Raymond de Tornaco) and Montlhéry (with Gros).

I've read many reports of those races and one of the problem is that he was simply called Barthelemy, his first name. But I've compared pictures. At Spa, no problem, I've seen various pictures of Barthelemy and he had the same face, same moustache. I suppose (I'm not 100% sure) that the driver seen at Le Mans in 1924 and at the 24 Heures de Paris at Montlhéry in 1927 was also Barthelemy (Bruyere). First reason, he drove for the same firm at Le Mans and Spa in 1924 (Bignan), same case in 1927, he drove a Fasto with codriver Paul Gros at Spa and Montlhéry. So I would be very interested to see pictures at Montlhéry in the 24 Heures de Paris, a big financial flop.


Same kind of story with Jacques Ledure (from Belgium) an Jerome Ledur (from France), who was a driver in the late 1920s - beginning of 1930s (Paris-Nice, etc) but that guy (Ledur) never drove at Le Mans.

[Pils1989]

Thanks for the trhead, I missed it. Quite informative as I will be looking for his relatives soon.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Apparently re-re-opening this thread.

Looking for profiles of early Le Mans 24h car manufactures, I'm currently searching for info regarding Bignan, a French manufacturer. Since this thread is about as comprehensive on detail as anything I've found so far, including a search here at TNF, I think questions would do nicely in this thread too.

The only other usefull info I have gained is that bore and stroke was 75 x 110 mm qualling a 1979.2 cc displacement although the sole 1926 car had a capasity of 1984 cc. The marque appeared at Le Mans at four consequetive occasions from 1923-1926. I have a vague reference to Renault delivering chassis to Bignan at one point and that a Causan was responsibal for the 2-litre engine. A search at Wikipidea turned up a French commune, but nothing else.

Here's a link to a picture of a model from ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com....bayphotohosting

Here's another link to a French forum depicting car #32 of the 1925 race – about 1/3 down the page:
http://www.forum-aut...t377390-875.htm

So where and when started Bignan and when did they end? Were their Le Mans starts facotory teams or privateers – there's a certain continuity among drivers from year to year?

Here's their Le Mans record from various sources:

1923
#23 Bignan 11hp Desmo / Raymond de Tornaco, Paul Gros / 3rd and winner in 2-litre class
#24 Bignan 11hp Commercial / Philippe de Marne, Jean Martin / joint 4th and second in 2-litre class

1924
#10 Bignan / Jean Martin, Philippe de Marne / DNF in 3-litre class
#11 Bignan / Jerome Ledure, Jean Matthys / DNF in 3-litre class
#28 Bignan / Raymond de Tornaco, Barthelemy Bruyere / 10th and 5th in 2-litre class
#29 Bignan / René Marie, Henri Springuel / DNF in 2-litre class

1925
#32 Bignan / Jean Martin, Jean Matthys / DNF in 2-litre class
#33 Bignan / Henri Springuel, Pierre Clause / 12th and 5th in 2-litre class

1926
#25 Bignan / Robert Gautier, Pierre Clause / DNF

Having a look in the Brooklands Books Le Mans 1923-1939, has given a few other pointers. Front wheel brakes (!) were apparently part of their general competitiveness with bigger engined cars. Effective pit work was another – perhaps gained from their previous race record as seen earlier in this thread. Perhaps not surprisingly the 3-litre cars of '24 was running for overall contention but retired, while #29 was running in third as late as the 20 hour mark, looking for another class win only to retire too.
From the 1923-report it says the following regarding their engines: the one with the positive valve closing mechanism was particularly fast for its size. Compared with its companion, having spring-operated valves, it had a gain of 800 revolutions a minute and about 10 h.p., its maximum engine speed being 4,500. With its comparatively low final gear ratio it touched 4,200 revolutions on the down stretches. I guess the car referred to is the #23 car.

Hope this will be of interest and another stop on the never ending steps of motorsport knowledge!

Jesper