133 replies to this topic

[DNQ]

I was just looking back through some past threads and came accross two threads on the greatest American drivers of all time, and the greatest British drivers.

What about Australian drivers? Who are Australias best drivers from all time? It's obviously very hard to compare from different eras, on the verge of impossible...but anyway, as major candidates we have...

Alan Jones, Sir Jack Brabham, Vern Schuppan, Larry Perkins, Peter Brock, Allan Grice, Russell Ingall, Mark Webber, Warwick Brown, Bill Thompson, Colin Bond, Mark Skaife, Les Murphy, Alan Tomlinson, Dick Johnson, Allan Moffat, Jim Richards (well....we'll claim him as an Aussie), Bob Jane, and many others...

I'd personally say, of the current bunch Jim Richards has got to be pretty high up there, but overall Brock, Brabham, Bond and Jones are the standouts for me, and Moffat too. I can't really comment on the earlier drivers, don't know anywhere near enough about them.

What do you think?

[Barry Boor]

I believe Tim Schenken would say Tim Schenken......

I would say Sir Jack, without question - with Alan Jones #2.

[Martin Roessler]

Jack Brabham is No 1 for me....who else was worldchampion on his own car?
Followed by Peter Brock...and at the moment Mark Skaife seems to be pretty dominant..
the most sympathic driver for me is Dick Johnson....
cheers Marty

[Flying Panda]

Brabham and Schuppan have to be at the very top of the list.
but Ingall?

and of cousre, theres a lot of unfulfilled talent;
Frank Matich - could match it with Clark in the Tasman series, never raced in Europe
Jason Bright - remember the 2000 Honda Indy 300? his first and last CART race? on his was to a podium finish before getting shafted by Massimiliano Papis
Max Dumesny - Australia's faster racecar driver, lapping the Calder Park Thunderdome in 27.1278 seconds. The fastest lap on a closed circuit in Australia. as well as winning countless speedway titles.

and if were calling Richards and Moffat Aussies, then I guess we can make John de Vries an honarary Aussie too

[DNQ]

Originally posted by Flying Panda
but Ingall?

hehe, he did win the British Formula Ford championship, hence his inclusion

Rgarding Moffat, even though he's probably been here for as long as Richards, he just doesnt seem quite as 'Australian' - must be that accent

[bobbo]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I believe Tim Schenken would say Tim Schenken......

I would say Sir Jack, without question - with Alan Jones #2.

And I heartily agree!

[Gary Davies]

As ever with these topics it is so hard to judge with anything resembling certainty. That said, Brabham, Jones, Brock and Matich seem the logical top four in some order or other.

However ... I must put my hand up for a gent so far not appearing on anyone's list, and who, IMHO, would surely be highly placed among les autres ... Frank Gardner.

Were the criterion to be "teller of hilarious anecdotes" he would be the clear number one.

[William Dale Jr]

Let's also not forget Leo and Pete Geoghegan and Kevin Bartlett. They have to be up there.

[Barry Lake]

A V Turner and Alf Barrett should be on any such list.

Of course it is hard to judge drivers who did not have the opportunity to compete against overseas opponents, but Barrett, from all reports was simply outstanding. Drivers who raced against him spoke of him in the same awe reserved only for Fangio by international racers.

[Egon Thurner]

There was a lot of discussion about australian drivers on this board. Read THE thread about the AGP, mostly moderated by Ray Bell, and then decide!

http://www.atlasf1.c...7&highlight=AGP

[Bernd]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
A V Turner and Alf Barrett should be on any such list.

Of course it is hard to judge drivers who did not have the opportunity to compete against overseas opponents, but Barrett, from all reports was simply outstanding. Drivers who raced against him spoke of him in the same awe reserved only for Fangio by international racers.

Yes I've heard a lot about Barrett. Ray mentioned to me that David McKay rates him as the number one Aussie, which to me carries a lot of weight.

Personally on raw pace I think Matich was the fastest but there were several better all round drivers including Brabham.

[Amaroo]

What about Bob Holden, George Fury, Bob Morris, Fred Gibson, Bo Seton....................

[eldougo]

There can only be number one AUSTRALIAN racing driver SIR JACK BRABHAM. Then
the rest follow A.JONES ,F MATICH ,F GARDNER,K BARTTLET. An the rest are not even closer
to these GREAT,S .

[David McKinney]

We're all entitled to our opinions, Dougo ;)

On another tack, I find it interesting that so many touring car/saloon/sedan drivers appear on people's lists. I can't imagine any list in, say, the UK, which would argue that, say, Jack Sears was in the same class as Jim Clark, or John Whitmore as Jackie Stewart

[David Shaw]

I'll put my name down for Ian (Pete) Geoghegan. He may have driven with a roof over his head, but some of his drives were nothing short of legendary, such as the Australian Touring Car Championship race at Bathurst in 1966 in his 1965 Mustang, when he passed Norm Beechey's 327 Chevy Nova for the lead around the OUTSIDE at Mc Phillamy Park. Also, same venue, the 1972 ATCC round when he beat Moffat's Mustang.
I must say though, that I believe overall Australia over-rates it's touring car drivers, probably because they have had the lion's share of the exposure since the late 1960's.

[Amaroo]

I see know one has mentioned Brian Muir..........

Can anyone shed some light on Brian Muirs career?????????????????????????

[Flying Panda]

and when your finished with Muir,
some infor on the great Vern Schuppan?

[holiday]

Robby Naish is pretty good.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Amaroo
What about Bob Holden, George Fury, Bob Morris, Fred Gibson, Bo Seton....................

Looks like this thread is going to consume some of my time...

Bo Seton certainly deserves a place at or near the top of any touring car driver lists. Plenty of fastest laps at Bathurst, a neat, cool driver when he was finally put in a car worthy of his talent... the Boomerang Holden and the Cusato 220SE showing his skills up nicely...

Of Fred Gibson, however, there is an opposing view from my quarter. When Fred raced an MGA, the Geoghegans sold him the first lightweight Elan to arrive here. They fully expected to sell a couple more based on Freddy's anticipated performances.

Leo told me, "We were so disappointed with the way Fred went that we put the second car together and raced it ourselves to show how fast they really were..."

Later on, when he bludged and urged his way into the Niel Allen team, his lack of talent alongside Niel E shone through.

Bob Morris was indeed very fast, but I'm inclined to say that this was only if the car and the weather were to his liking.

George Fury, now that's another issue. Wouldn't you like to have seen him in an openwheeler? I would!

Bob Holden... I don't think Bob would ever place himself on a list of 'greats'... he had some good performances, but there were also drivers he looked up to. And rightly so... Bob's lifelong enthusiasm for the sport, however, is without peer.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Amaroo
I see know one has mentioned Brian Muir..........

Can anyone shed some light on Brian Muirs career?????????????????????????

Yeah... unbeknown to many...

He raced a Lotus 11 at Bathurst... and he ran a Lotus 30/40 (?) as well.

A very thoughtful driver, preplanned his racing quite a lot. One of the nicest blokes I've met, really... and he had a top mechanic in Ray Eldershaw. Another first class guy...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted.....
A V Turner and Alf Barrett should be on any such list.

Of course it is hard to judge drivers who did not have the opportunity to compete against overseas opponents, but Barrett, from all reports was simply outstanding. Drivers who raced against him spoke of him in the same awe reserved only for Fangio by international racers.

No doubt about Barrett's inclusion... and one has to wonder about some of Turner's contemporaries too.



Who's the lucky lad here?



Does this mean Frank Kleinig should be on the short list too? Clive Gibson thinks so...



...and this car and driver won every race they contested for over a year...

[David McKinney]

I think Alf Barrett would have to be on any list - but IMHO Tomlinson didn't race long enough or in sufficiently varied cars to qualify. And I always wondered how much of Kleinig's success was due to superior machinery
Having said that, I never saw any of them race, and haven't been able to read as much as one can about the European stars from the same period. So it's all a bit difficult

[Stefan Ornerdal]

How about David Walker?

I have recently had a closer look at the 1971 European F3 season - David won almost every race entered in. At this time, Alan Jones was very much a backmarker! How things can change.

Does anyone know anything about the Australian International Racing Organisation, an entrant for Jones, Allan McCully and Brian McGuire in 1971? Was this some kind of "scholarship" for young, talented Australians?

Stefan

[Ray Bell]

No, not at all...

In fact, I never knew of the other two racing in Australia at all, though I don't doubt that they may have done...

David... based on what Tomlinson did at Lobethal in those two appearances, I'm sure he has to be considered.

And nobody has mentioned Bill Thompson... have they? Surely he'll rate a jersey/guernsey/old jumper in this list?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
How about David Walker?

I have recently had a closer look at the 1971 European F3 season - David won almost every race entered in.

Stefan

I think the general opinion of Dave was that he reached the limit of his abilities in F3 (and he had been in the class on and off since 1966!). His F1 record with Lotus in 1972 was dire .... no points in the year Emerson won his first title.

He was unlucky to suffer a couple of injuries in road accidents, which curtailed his career further, but by no stretch of the imagination could he be described as one of the greatest Aussie drivers!

[Barry Boor]

I think that we have two distinct schools of thought here. We Northern Hemispherians, while having been able to watch the exploits of many excellent Aussie tin top drivers through the years, are bound to tend to favour those Aussies who we have seen racing on a regular basis against their Northern Hemispherian peers.

Granted the likes of Moffat, Geoghegan, Seton etc etc etc, may well put one over the northerners at Bathurst on a regular basis but that is hardly comparable to beating the world's best in the world's premier category.

Well, it WAS the world's premier category when Sir Jack and Alan were racing.

So please, you upside-down guys, forgive some of us if we appear blinkered and narrow-minded on this matter.

[Ray Bell]

Despite the fact that it's morning here and your bedtime there, I'm with you Barry...

Brian Muir goes up in my estimation due to his sports car drives... no matter how good he was in tourers, and he was certainly good.

Peter Brock didn't do much in open-wheelers, though he did achieve some success in the Birrana. He simply didn't score against class fields and didn't get enough time in them.

But among the earlier period drivers cited, the only difference is that most of them drove Specials rather than pukka cars. This makes comparison more difficult... and the successes they achieved, too.

There are no questions about the ability of Matich, Brabham, Jones, both Geoghegans (Ian did race open-wheelers and sports cars for a long time), Bartlett, Barrett, Tomlinson, Thompson, Allen (oh, yeah, sneak Niel in here...), Alfredo Costanzo, Peter Hopwood, Andrew Miedecke, John Smith, John Goss, John Harvey (in earlier years) and Bill Patterson.

Oh, I did add a few names for consideration, didn't I?

[stuartbrs]

Ray, what about Peter Manton?

[Ray Bell]

MG TC driver of the forties?

Oh, I'd say he was a washout...



Seriously, old 'magnesium bones' was good in his Minis and a few other things, but they all had a roof.

[stuartbrs]

Never knew he was an MG driver as well, actually I know very little of him at all, just that he`s a bit of legend in Mini circles!

Why "magnesium bones"?

thanks Ray!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by stuartbrs
Never knew he was an MG driver as well, actually I know very little of him at all, just that he`s a bit of legend in Mini circles!

Why "magnesium bones"?

thanks Ray!

Don't thank me... thank an old bloke who kept the pics...

'Magnesium bones' is from his light weight and his constant pursuit of the same.

Of course, in time he paid the price. See if you can see in this picture where he was going wrong...



Oh, yeah, I have more...

[stuartbrs]

'Magnesium bones' is from his light weight and his constant pursuit of the same.

I`d read that about one or two of his Mini`s, but apparently they weren`t that bad, from some of the stories you`d imagine huge amounts of Mini being removed from his vehicles, but the ones that survive dont really reflect this.

Im still looking at the pic Ray, what have I missed??!!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by stuartbrs



I`d read that about one or two of his Mini`s, but apparently they weren`t that bad, from some of the stories you`d imagine huge amounts of Mini being removed from his vehicles, but the ones that survive dont really reflect this.

Im still looking at the pic Ray, what have I missed??!!

No, maybe there wasn't a lot missing, but he did go for light weight. Also ran a left hand drive setup at right hand circuits to put his own weight (such as that was...) on the inside of most corners.

There's an awful lot in that pic, some very famous motor sporting people... but the thing you've missed is the cigarette in his mouth.

[stuartbrs]

Great pics ( as usual Ray! )

but the thing you've missed is the cigarette in his mouth.

pre-dating Rosberg by 30 years!!

[Ray Bell]

And Rindt by 20...

Lung cancer got him in the end... though it might have been something seen as more dangerous in certain circles if he'd lasted much longer.

[David McKinney]

Getting back to the AIRO question, I think it was just a cooperative expenses-sharing exercise started by Jones and McGuire. I never quite figured how McCully became involved, as he was not Australian, but a New Zealander. I don't think he ever raced in Oz

[Ray Bell]

Where did McGuire hale from, anyway? And did he race in Australia?

I know that Peter Brock spent some time with him sorting his Lola at one time when he was in England, but other than that I know nothing...

[David McKinney]

I have a faint memory of knowing McGuire had raced at home before his European campaign. Don't think I'm mixing him up with Jim McGuire, but anything's possible

[Ray Bell]

Not possible, David, not possible... Carmen wouldn't allow it to start with.

[eldougo]

THANKS------ David McKinney. QUOTE.

On another tack, I find it interesting that so many touring car/saloon/sedan drivers appear on
people's lists. I can't imagine any list in, say, the UK, which would argue that, say, Jack Sears
was in the same class as Jim Clark, or John Whitmore as Jackie Stewart.
********************

It get me people go on about TOURING car drivers!!!!!
how can we compare these guys, because most of them never had the nerve
to step out of the little pond and try to make a living in the REAL world.
There have been a few who have taken this big step and more power to them,there is a hell of a lot who STAYED in the safety net of OZ racing an can only wish & wonder how they would have gone. O/S.

[mickj]

A racing driver is a racing driver no matter what he races, be it a F1 car, Can-am, GT or Touring car, Nascar or a midget racer.

[Doug Nye]

Might you consider perhaps the notion that true sporting greatness includes ambition... ????

The truly great venture beyond home shores and aim for The Top.

'The Top' excludes 'tin top'... and certainly prohibits both NASCAR and Australian V8s.

Discuss?

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Absolutely, but they can be burned and retreat to the safety of the tin-top net...

As did Craig Lowndes, who excelled in everything until he hit F3000... then the story that came back was that he was given a second class car.

I've always rated him above Mark Webber...

[Gary Davies]

Hmm. There's a nice "provocative cuteness" about Mr. Nye's, ah, challenge. But I'm not going to challenge it because I take his point. Seems to me this thread has devolved to a list of Aussies wot drive/drove cars in races.

And I must confess the current Aussie taxi racing sends me to sleep far more effectively than the efforts Messieurs Todt, Brawn, Stepney and Schumacher.

To keep the provocative theme, may I quote Jenks in [i]The Racing Driver[i/]:-

"Some of the bigger sports cars are faster in respect of of maximun speed than the Grand Prix cars, but because they are two-seaters and carry relatively spacious bodywork and a lot of regulation equipment they are much heavier, and in consequence lag behind in matters of acceleration, braking and cornering ability, so that their potential for covering a given stretch of winding road forming a racing circuit is not as great as a Grand Prix car. Because of their inferior qualities most of these cars are easier to drive to their limits simply because these limits are lower than those of the Grand Prix car.

"We shall see how a driver who can handle a sports car does not necessarily prove capable of handling a Grand Prix car, though it is safe to say that the reverse is not so."

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Absolutely, but they can be burned and retreat to the safety of the tin-top net...

As did Craig Lowndes, who excelled in everything until he hit F3000... then the story that came back was that he was given a second class car.

I've always rated him above Mark Webber...

I wonder if this anecdote proves anything. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine was manning a stand at the Melbourne Motor Show in "Jeff's Shed", which takes places these days at the time the Grand Prix is in town. On the adjacent stand was a company flogging a Grand Prix game and associated cockpit, steering wheel etc. During the day assorted tin top drivers and other worthies wandered in to the show and wherever possible were plonked into the simulator which ran Monza 1967 for almost the whole day. The folks running the stand noted the best times of all participants.

I really don't know if Lowndes had a go but Webber did and I gather his best time was around 4 seconds ahead of ANY of the others all day. It caused a bit of a stir at the time.

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As did Craig Lowndes, who excelled in everything until he hit F3000... then the story that came back was that he was given a second class car.

I believe the truth was he was given a first class teammate...

[Darren Galpin]

A certain Juan Pablo Montoya, who finished 2nd in the championship rather than joint 17th. Lowndes did beat Montoya at Enna though.....

[eldougo]

OTE]The truly great venture beyond home shores and aim for The Top. [/QUOTE] Well put DOUG.

[Amaroo]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Might you consider perhaps the notion that true sporting greatness includes ambition... ????

The truly great venture beyond home shores and aim for The Top.

'The Top' excludes 'tin top'... and certainly prohibits both NASCAR and Australian V8s.

Discuss?

DCN

Alan jones has offten said that "You could win multiple F1 world championships but if you haven't won Bathurst then you are nothing in the eyes of the Australian Racing public"

[dmj]

Greatest? We all know it... Black Jack is in class of his own.

But the most admirable?

FRANK GARDNER