133 replies to this topic

[Falcadore]

While we again try to out pedant each other, my original point wasn't the removal of others but a list of 20 (well 19) which SHOULD be considered, and than the negative opposite case.

[jarama]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
[B
Even ignoring the errors in that paragraph (Brock raced many times in Europe, Jones and Davison ran in a Monte Carlo Rally, Jones won against European competition in New Zealand, Miedecke raced in NZ and GB (IIRC), Harvey ran European races, Bond contested WRC events, Jane raced in England, Richards was with Brock and Harvey, Johnson ran in NASCAR), you have overstepped the original parameters of the thread.
[/B]

Ray,

about the Jones and Davison participation in a Monte-Carlo Rally, can we know the year, car (or cars -I don't know if they were sharing one car or driving two different cars), final classification or other data?

Carles.

PS: As some of you know I'm working on a International Rally Database, and I'm always interested in all of this stuff.

[Ray Bell]

They shared a Holden in 1952 or 1953, from memory... it should stand out among the entries.

There was a third member of the team, Barry will remember who, maybe Reg Hunt?

Reg Hunt? A pom... but he let a chap named Kevin Neale drive his cars... now there's a name that belongs on the list!


Falc... as long as you got the point... I'm not trying to 'out-pedant' you, just sticking to the original question.

[Jaxs]

I'm surprised at the very little reference to Paul Hawkins, all right his F1 career was a little short but in the GT40 ... magic

Rgds

Jaxs

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by jarama


Ray,

about the Jones and Davison participation in a Monte-Carlo Rally, can we know the year, car (or cars -I don't know if they were sharing one car or driving two different cars), final classification or other data?

Carles.

PS: As some of you know I'm working on a International Rally Database, and I'm always interested in all of this stuff.

Lex Davison and Stan Jones competed in a Holden in the 1953 Monte Carlo Rally. Third man was Tony Gaze, in England at the time, who organised that end of the operation. They had some backing from Holden, as I understand it. Jones was a Holden dealer at the time... I think (going from memory on all of this). Jones certainly was a Holden dealer at some time; I am assuming he was when this happened. Sorry, but don't have the time to go and research it at the moment.

[jarama]

Ray & Barry,

thankyou.

Carles.

[Ray Bell]

Think practically nothing of it, jarama...

[Milan Fistonic]

In an article published in Racing Car News to mark his retirement from racing, Frank Matich rated his fellow competitors.

Kevin Bartlett: Too irresponsible. Kevin has splashes of great speed, but doesn’t work hard at consistency. I couldn’t put Kevin in a car I owned. He is burdened by not wanting to know much about the cars he drives.

Warwick Brown: Bags of natural talent. He’s terribly good and he’s dedicated. It’s a darn shame that he had that accident as it obviously won’t help him.

Max Stewart: I group Max and Kevin together. They’re both incompetent. I can’t recall either achieving anything. Both have gone out on a particular day and done well, but when you think about it, they should have won anyway. So many other times they’ve done rotten jobs.

John McCormack: A bloody good example of how bad the opposition is. An ordinary guy, a cool guy, level-headed and probably the coldest and most calculating driver on the scene. But I have no time for blokes who block and fill holes. Some people call this tactics, but it is really a substitute for ability.

Graham McRae: A much better driver than I probably gave him credit for. I don’t respect him greatly as a driver – whenever I started to press him he would baulk a bit, but I could always jump him. I did find that once Graham was passed he wouldn’t give chase.

And of himself, Matich had this to say.

I was proud of the fact that I could hold my own against anyone I had to race with. I didn’t really try to be a top driver. I didn’t place any emphasis on the driver. All I did was attempt to organise the car and myself to the best combination on the day.

[Ray Bell]

Those were some savage attacks, weren't they?

Of course at the time there was a lot of 'separation' between Matich and the others.

Frank was building his own cars and using the Repco engines, and had the closest contacts with Repco.

There were two factions to 'the others'... the Elfin brigade, McCormack and Cooper and what McCormack referred to as the 'Lola Push'... virtually everyone else.

During 1972, I have mentioned previously, some of this animosity was shown in a pit signal from Stewart's crew during a race, which showed the leader as 'F. Who'

That was how Max referred to Frank in day to day conversation.

The most surprising comment is the pasting he gives Bartlett. Stewart, yes, I can understand that, McCormack the engineer and tactician, I can accept that, McRae, spot on. Brown he doesn't criticise at all. But Bartlett?

KB was running his own show at this time, and he wasn't doing too badly. But he wasn't at the head of the field... perhaps that's what Frank meant?

You compare what KB did from 1966 on in the old Yellow Brabham with what Frank had done in '64 in his Total car and you see the shortcoming. Matich had run with every hare that came here, but Kevin (though partly under the shadow of Gardner for that time) only really shone on a few occasions in that environment.

There's perhaps another clue to this in his statement about McRae... he's obviously reconsidered his attitude towards the Kiwi because he says "A much better driver than I probably gave him credit for." He's changed his mind, it seems, but maybe that same jaundiced view he'd taken of the others had not (yet) been anylised?

I must remember one day to ask KB about this comment. I don't think there's any point in asking McCormack, he'd just say "He's entitled to his opinion"...

[HighTower]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Absolutely, but they can be burned and retreat to the safety of the tin-top net...

As did Craig Lowndes, who excelled in everything until he hit F3000... then the story that came back was that he was given a second class car.

Two who haven't been mentioned but eventually beat the same path home to the tin tops after showing promise but lacking funds are Marcus Ambrose and David Besnard.

They both deserve a mention in such a thread.

HT

[Ray Bell]

How appropriate that you drag this thread back tonight, mountain man...

For today John Medley posted this about a truly great driver:

Originally posted by John Medley
Ray, re Tomlinson.I know! I know! (but as you know I dont know the answer).

Tomlinson's performances in that brief period border on the unbelievable. There is little doubt that his was the fastest MGTA (the only?) ever, and the evidence indicates he was as prepared for his races as any of the hotshots from the east -- or even more so. I think it's likely that the straighten the crankshaft at bearing changes story is true. I think the MG factory comment re best prepared/ fastest MGTA is true.

And we have to accept that his Lobethal laptimes (and estimated speeds) are true. And as I told you all my investigations just bewildered me (and others): Using a pair of dividers, I sectioned an accurate Lobethal map into standing and flying quarter miles, estimated time taken for each section, and added them up; this proved that neither Tomlinson nor his car could have done the times he did in actuality (!!!). I then attacked the problem in reverse: taking his overall lap time I sectioned this so I ended up with a pretty good line on, for example, how many seconds he took to go from the Onkaparinga Woollen Mills corner to the Gumeracha turnoff up through the main street of Lobethal township --- and then tested this.

Ross Hodgson is a very good racing driver, his car in 1990 was a 1989 EA V8 Falcon, his passengers were me with all my calculations/race reports/original laptimes/stopwatches and longtime MG expert Tom Stevens who actually saw Tomlinson do the deed at Lobethal (both times), the latter having done what might be called an engineering analysis of what you could have done to a TA to make it go.

All firmly belted in, we blasted up through the Gumeracha Turnoff but after an orgy of shrieking smoking tyres and maniac understeer, Ross gave it away ('this is too hard') before we crested the rise near where the Itala V8 crashed in 1948 -- but only after I had to tell him he was already outside Tomlinson's estimated time.

We concluded that since he actually did those times (and for example had to have reached 120mph regularly), the engine had to be a big fat one, ie a big MG motor not a TA -- we turned a blind eye to the photo evidence that it WAS a TA motor, ie like all human beings we weren't comfortable with the impossible, so we invented a convenient if false excuse.

So, my view on Tomlinson? Clearly he was unbelievably good..... and my impression is that he was seen that way in Western Australia at the time. To the eastern staters he must have been quite a shock.

[Falcadore]

Originally posted by HighTower


Two who haven't been mentioned but eventually beat the same path home to the tin tops after showing promise but lacking funds are Marcus Ambrose and David Besnard.

They both deserve a mention in such a thread.

HT

A lot have done more with less. David, agreat driver, spent a long time in the US in essentially pay series and got stuck at a level in the US. Jason Bright did not have much more money and got further. He also came back to Australia, raised some funds and had another go. Persistance. It did get him a one-off CART drive, but HRT beckoned and who could refuse a high paying drive when you have some big bills to pay.

Ambrose's one-time team mate James Courtney is continuing to press onwards and upwards, admittedly with access to more money, but also doors did open for him, including a big one with Jaguar.

[Milan Fistonic]

In 1977 David McKay wrote an article for SCW Quarterly titled The Masterful and the Mediocre in which he rated the abilities of Australian drivers. Here are some excerpts from the article.

He was asked by someone at the 1975 Monaco Grand Prix who was the number one driver in Australia at that time.

I said that I considered Colin Bond the most versatile, Pete Geoghegan the most talented and Allan Moffat the most successful and that of the newer breed Peter Brock and John Goss showed the most potential.

Then he went on to discuss drivers from an earlier time.

Perhaps the fastest drivers we have bred in Australia were Bill Patterson and John Youl. Patterson was moody, volatile and uncertain, but on his day very, very fast. Son of a famous tennis player, he inherited much of his father’s temperament. Patterson was the leading light in a trio of Melbourne Holden car dealers, the others being Bib Stillwell and Stan Jones. Cars were their business and it was a difficult act to keep pace with for anyone without their healthy cash flow. Youl could have done so had he been prepared to gamble on some of his inheritance. His father owned one of the best grazing properties in northern Tasmania and in fact built a circuit on it which was a big bonus for John. But Youl, while blessed with a rare natural talent, approached his motor racing half-heartedly and was seldom fully prepared.

Stillwell on the other hand was the methodical plodder, who in his formative days showed little aptitude and certainly gave no indication of what was to follow. But of all our resident drivers Stillwell was the most successful and a perfect example of what can be achieved with application, organization, money and sheer hard work.

Jones was the antithesis … flamboyant, wild, happy-go-lucky, “live for today, for tomorrow we die” attitude. He gathered a multitude of hangers-on and splurged generously but not always wisely. But Jonsey was a character and on a good day he could run with the best of them. I never did know how he got his soubriquet of “Sorrowful”. Perhaps his son Alan will tell me.

Lex Davison was another character, the all-too-rare enthusiastic amateur… Sunny personality, a sense of humour, a fine raconteur, big and bold in manner, he matched his big purse with a big heart. Lex was no Patterson nor Youl, and he lacked the application of a Stillwell but he won a lot of big races.

Next he rated the current F5000 drivers.

…F5000 did catapult into world prominence one driver in Australia and one in New Zealand. Frank Matich stood head and shoulders above his rivals in this country and he deserved to do so. Matich was no silver spoon driver. He clawed his way up and in so doing left a lot of enemies behind him. But Matich made his racing his profession and he worked at it harder than anyone else and so he prospered. He also happened to be a very skilful driver and a very good salesman. Unfortunately today we have good salesmen who aren’t good drivers and consequently we have a lot of sponsors who don’t get a run for their money – but that, too, is another story.

Matich’s domination of both racing and sports categories may have blunted the enthusiasm of others here but it didn’t blunt Graham McRae’s across the Tasman. He got into the act and met Matich head-on, doing his own thing as Matich did. Regrettably McRae lacked organisational skill once he left his home scene.

If ever two men should have won their way in F1 cars it was Matich and McRae but neither had a temperament that immediately won friends and Formula One team managers don’t take quickly to fully-grown heroes from down under. Youngsters, yes; they can be trained and moulded if they have the talent but already set-in-their-ways drivers are problems most team managers can do without.

One such youngster looked like making it – Warwick Brown. Backed by his good friend Pat Burke, Brown stormed through a Tasman series to victory and headed off to America. OK, so he didn’t rocket to the top but he did have a go which is very much to his credit. Perhaps he had inflated ideas of his own ability and thought he could knock off the ace F5000 man, Brian Redman. Or perhaps he wasn’t so sure of himself and didn’t relish the thought of the rough-and-tumble way to Formula One through the desperate ranks of Formula Three. Only Warwick knows.

Young Bruce Allison seemed to be making the same error, in my opinion. He had good family financial backing and was hailed as another Brown by an over-enthusiastic press suddenly keen to find something good with F5000 racing. A season in Formula Three in England and Europe will be far better training for Allison.

Good businessmen usually make good team owners and managers … look at Penske, Tyrrell and Ecclestone. Very few drivers can organise themselves, though Jackie Stewart and Lauda are the exceptions that come to mind. Classic examples of disorganised drivers are our own champions Kevin Bartlett and Max Stewart. In their golden days driving for patron Alec Mildren, himself a former champion who knew how to get it together, Bartlett and Stewart were formidable indeed. They were both crowd pleasers and worthy champions. Today they give the impression of having been at it too long yet don’t know how to get out of it with dignity. When Mildren was paying the bills and organising the team Bartlett and Stewart could concentrate solely on winning races.

I would like to see Goss try his hand in England and Europe but he seems hesitant about tackling the competitive F3 scene … I think he alone among our regular resident steerers has the youth and ability to make a name for himself abroad. I would like to see Bartlett and Stewart find backing to form their own teams and coach young talents for they have undoubtedly vast knowledge to pass on.

Another driver who gets a mention is Spencer Martin.

Today is the era of the “instant” this and that … everything must happen now – tomorrow is too late. Consequently sponsors rarely look at potential winners but rather at instant winners. Gone seem to be the days when a young driver could be spotted as a future champion and carefully nurtured without pressure on him to give instant results. About the last time that happened was when Shell had the foresight to back a young Spencer Martin in 1964 with the hope of winning the Australian championship three years later. Martin did just that and repeated the dose the following year in full repayment of Shell’s support.

[cm50]

This discussion seems to have been on and off thread so I may as well put in my two bobs worth.

From personal experience there are racing drivers and then there are those who drive racing cars. I realy believe from what I have seen from the early 60's to the present that with the exceptions who are well known most guys here have been the latter.

I think many have prefered to be king of the s**ts than s*t of the kings and havent had what it takes to carry on and percevere, follow the dream etc.

things are changing and young guys with no history are going o'seas and those with talent and money/connections and perceverance are reaping the rewards, either in returning to top drives or getting to the top.


On another matter, What is the feeling re Matich and an ealier advesary...Jimy Palmer from NZ. in both Brabhams and the lotus 32 it was probably50/50. I believe Palmer was asked to test for a lotus drive ...dont know whether he ever took it up.....but then it doesnt matter...past history

Chris M

[Ray Bell]

Palmer and Matich both had Brabhams during the 1964 series... Matich led races and ran with the International hares, Palmer looked on from lowly places.

Jim was never in the same class as Frank. And though he did a workmanlike job, he didn't have the eyesight necessary to be a really classy driver... he had monocular vision.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

There was a third member of the team, Barry will remember who, maybe Reg Hunt?

Reg Hunt? A pom... but he let a chap named Kevin Neale drive his cars... now there's a name that belongs on the list!

Was Reg Hunt Holden at Hurstville or maybe Penshurst in Sydney?? I think we bought a relatively new HR from them. On a sad note, and the Victorians can help out here, on the Hwy down to Dandenong there is a forlorn, empty, overgrown with weeds - Reg Hunt Motors!!

[Ray Bell]

You can bet that it's only that way because they want it to be or they don't own it any more...

Reg Hunt boasted to me a year or so ago that his family had sold over a million vehicles in a little over a hundred years... starting with horse-drawn stuff and today selling 600+ cars a month from their various Melbourne outlets.

He didn't have anything in Sydney, however... you're getting somewhat mixed up there.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You can bet that it's only that way because they want it to be or they don't own it any more...

Reg Hunt boasted to me a year or so ago that his family had sold over a million vehicles in a little over a hundred years... starting with horse-drawn stuff and today selling 600+ cars a month from their various Melbourne outlets. He didn't have anything in Sydney, however... you're getting somewhat mixed up there.

Hmmm, thats a lotta vehicles. Yes you are quite correct Dinger, I was of course thinking of Saville Bros (or however ya spell it) at Hurstville where we traded the 56 FJ Special Sedan for the HR......wish we stilll had the FJ

[MarkBisset]

 

Larry Perkins, winner of the 1977 Brazilian (bike) GP (LAT)

 

Feature article on the single seater careers of Larry - and Terry - Perkins

 

https://primotipo.co...-larry-perkins/

 

“12-cylinders yer reckon?” Perkins and crew at Rio, BRM P207 (MotorSport Images)

 

Edited by MarkBisset, 28 January 2023 - 23:23.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
In an article published in Racing Car News to mark his retirement from racing, Frank Matich rated his fellow competitors.....

Missing from that list was Niel Allen, who'd retired a couple of years before...

As I felt it was relevant to know how Frank would rate him, and keeping it in the same kind of 'atmosphere' as he had given the ratings on the others, I prefaced my question by referring heavily back to those statements.

 

Then I asked him how he would assess Niel Allen in the same vein.

 

His response didn't seem to be as damning as he had been with the others:

 

"On a Friday night we'd be coming back from testing at the track, it might be quite late, and going past Niel's building you'd see that the lights were still on and he was working late.

Then the next morning he'd be there at the circuit and ready to deliver his best, he could switch completely from Niel Allen the property developer to Niel Allen the racing driver. I couldn't understand how he could that."

[MarkBisset]

My post looks more like Larry Perkins than Niel Allen?

 

Nice link to 2003, wots two decades amongst friends!!

 

What did Frank think of Larry?

 

m

[AllanL]

I can imagine the response to Larry's "Twelve Cylinders" being "There are 12 cylinders, but I'll give you they may not be all firing or in the right order." 

[Lee Nicolle]

 

Larry Perkins, winner of the 1977 Brazilian (bike) GP (LAT)

 

Feature article on the single seater careers of Larry - and Terry - Perkins

 

https://primotipo.co...-larry-perkins/

 

“12-cylinders yer reckon?” Perkins and crew at Rio, BRM P207 (MotorSport Images)

 

Larry Perkins, his bothers Terry and Peter, his son Jack and father Eddy.

All who did a bit in motorsport!

[MarkBisset]

prntscr

 

Good to very good, not Greatest, buy hey… (Bob King Collection)

 

John Snow in the Delahaye 135 Sport Competition he had imported not so many months before. 1939 AGP at Lobethal. Any idea what stretch of the road folks? 

One AGP to its credit but probably shoulda been a couple more? 
 

https://primotipo.co...jock-finlayson/

Edited by MarkBisset, 03 February 2023 - 09:43.

[Porsche718]

1939 Australian Grand Prix at Lobethal.

 

John Snow's Delahaye 135 finished 4th on handicap. 2nd on scratch behind Jack Saywell's Alfa Romeo P3.

 

Great photo, just interested in why its inclusion in this thread?

[Ray Bell]

I think Mark explained that, Steve...

 

And I think the pic is taken somewhere just out of town, on the outbound stretch before the wild up and down ride began in earnest.

[MarkBisset]

Thanks Ray, time I drove the place again

 

 

Daniel Ricciardo at Macau during the 2009 Grand Prix weekend, Dallara F308 VW (Drew Gibson/LAT)

 

Amazing in 'modern times' to have a backdrop like this, and devoid of advertising hoardings. I wonder how hard it was for the 'snapper to find.

 

Q5, sixth in the qualification race and first lap prang in the main race which was won by Edoardo Mortara from Jean-Karl Vernay and Sam Bird

 

I've always wanted to go up there for a few days @ racetime, have any of you been then?

 

 

Kevin Bartlett before the off in 1969, here in the Mildren Waggott at left as the 1-minute board goes up.

 

Alongside is John MacDonald's Brabham BT10 Ford FVA, and Osamu Masuko's Mitsubishi Colt F2-C R39 - all three cars significant in different ways. #66 is Albert Poon's Brabham BT30 and alongside, and partially obscured at right on the same row is the nose of Sohei Kato in the other works Mitsubishi (nee-Brabhams).

 

Bartlett won from Poon and Kato. It was reading about KB's win in my very-well-thumbed copy of Australian Motor Racing Annual 1970 that fired up my interest in the race/place.

Edited by MarkBisset, 03 February 2023 - 21:44.

[Ray Bell]

Mark I think 35 Mt Torrens Road might be close...

 

Too many trees today blocking the view from Street View.

[Porsche718]

I think Mark explained that, Steve...

 

 

But ... if you think about the four fastest cars in the '39 AGP - namely Alf Barrett, Jack Saywell and Frank Kleinig ... I personally couldn't put John Snow anywhere near the other three. But that's just me.

 

I think it was more of a case of the Delahaye being the right car, for the right place, at the right time. Both pre-war and post. Not as fast as the Alfas, but rugged, quick and always was able to sneak a little bit on the handicappers.

 

Having said that, I must say John Snow did enormous amounts for Australian motor sport in the late '30s. The cars he bought out to Oz, and the drivers he put in them, Snow lifted the Aussie motorsport competition to a level that may not have happened as quickly without his input. Great man on that score.

 

But that brings to mind another of the era who I do rate highly - John Barraclough. That name may surprise many, but had he not concentrated more on business and journalism (which he did a wonderful job at) I believe he would have had a longer and more successful career. He was simply fast in anything he sat in.

 

Now ... on the Delahaye ... which car is it? I will stand before the firing squad and state ... I do not believe it is the car that has claimed the Snow identity ie: 47190 (sorry Mark and hundreds of others!). If you go through the chassis history and timelines of the 135s, then it is more likely to be 46331 (even Leif Snellman is not sure of the number) but licence number was definitely 6047RK4.

 

How could John Snow have bought a 135, raced it at Brooklands and in Europe, whilst 47190 was still being repaired after being wrapped around a tree (literally) at Spa? Not to mention, that at some stage later, 47190 was rebuilt again FROM a later series 135 which it was, to an earlier style, conveniently like the Snow car.

 

The problems have arisen over time because Eugene Chaboud had four Delahayes he was involved in during the period. Three he owned at the same time, and the car he shared with Jean Tremoulet. (46331, 47190 and 47192. He also had 46810 which was prepared as a rally car).

 

Steve

Edited by Porsche718, 04 February 2023 - 02:47.

[MarkBisset]

Steve,

 

Barrett and Kleinig are on different planets to Saywell, and then Snow. The only bloke who could possibly rate them in some semblance of merit-talent - and others in that thirties to fifties period competitor set - is John Medley. His John Snow book is rolled-gold, I dip into it all the time.

 

Ian Polson is in Melbourne at the moment visiting family, Bob King introduced me to him. He is happy to help with an article on the Delahaye. I'll know more when I get some clobber from him.

 

m

[Porsche718]

 

Ian Polson is in Melbourne at the moment visiting family, Bob King introduced me to him. He is happy to help with an article on the Delahaye. I'll know more when I get some clobber from him.

 

m

 

I would be great to have him look over my Delayahe research. Covers the 135, 145 and "so-called" 175 series. If you are seeing him I could send you my file.

 

Re: John Snow again. I don't have the John Medley book, and everybody raves about it - I've got a birthday coming up so I must get the family steered in the right direction. If I can't find a copy I'll ring John.

 

But I stand on my remarks about John Snow, and I probably understated in my previous post the regard I have for him and his almost single handed promotion of Australian motor sports in the late '30s and immediate post war period.

 

But as driver? I still don't get it.

Edited by Porsche718, 04 February 2023 - 02:46.

[Ray Bell]

Gentlemen...

 

How can you have this conversation without rating Alan Tomlinson?

[MarkBisset]

 

Tomlinson goes without saying, the conversation went in the direction it did based on the cars in my Finlayson piece.

 

AT was such a young man - and still would have been post-war - that perhaps we never saw him at his peak, an exciting prospect.

 

There are pages and pages on AT in the ‘39 AGP in a thread somewhere on TNF, Lobethal I guess.

 

Edited by MarkBisset, 04 February 2023 - 22:21.

[MarkBisset]

 

restaurants college rd wilmington nc

 

Rare colour shot of Jack Brabham during practice at Indy in 1968, Brabham BT25/1 Repco 760 4.2 V8 (unattributed)

 

The story goes that Jack did a deal with Betty not to race, but she forgot the fine print so he practiced Rindt’s car - this one - and Masten Gregory’s quite extensively.

 

The RB 860 was late, therefore so was the Indy 760. Masten’s car was late so he didn’t attempt to qualify and Rindts car popped a big hole in a piston - which Rodway Wolfe still has - on lap five. Game over, not much value for all of Goodyear’s spend…

 

Ain’t it sweet…