19 replies to this topic

[Egon Thurner]

After outbrake of WW1 Sunbeam competed in the States, first with modified 1914 GP cars. For 1916 they built entirely new cars (4,9-litre, 6-cylinder). For the year 1920 the european (=french) Grand-Prix-3-litre-formula had been adopted for the Iny 500 and the now useless 4,9-litre cars came to british soil, where they raced at Brooklands (Hawker, ..).

Seems, that one of the cars had been raced in the Boillot cup by André Boillot. But maybe that was already one of the 1921-GP cars, that got a 4,9-litre engine for racing in the 1922 Coppa Florio by Segrave and Chassagne, though I don't believe this modifications been made already in spring of 1921. So this car most probably was an origial Indy-car. For sure it was over 4,5-litre.

Who can tell me, what happened exactly with the 1916-Indy-Sunbeams after 1919 ?

[Mark Ballard]

One of them is currently living in Warwickshire, England ( I saw it a couple of months ago in a friends garage).

[Egon Thurner]

Mark, do you know, what kind of engine it bears ? Or even better, is it possible, that you can find out the car's history ?

[Mark Ballard]

I think I have some history details at home.
Certainly it still has a 4.9 litre engine

[marion5drsn]

Was this engine designed by Louis Coatalen. M.L. Anderson

[Jimmy Piget]

BTW, does somebody knows where Joseph Christiaens, the Sunbeam test-driver, met his death while testing a Sunbeam in view of the 1919 Indy 500 ?
At Sheepshead Bay ? At Brooklands ? On a public road ?

[Roger Clark]

The 1916 Indianapolis cars had the new 6-cylinder engine in a modified 1914 Grand Prix chassis. For the 1919 race, Sunbeam prepared a team with the same engine fitted to to the shorter TT chassis. These cars were withdrawn before qualifying, for reasons that are not known. These were the cars which were entered for the 1922 Coppa Florio and many other races until 1929.

Josef Christiaens was killed on the road outside the Sunbeam factory on 23 February 1919 while demonstrating one of the 1919 Indinapolis cars to the directors of the Company.

All this, and much more including a full racing record, is in Sunbeam Racing Cars by Anthony S Heal

[marion5drsn]

Does the Book ,"SUNBEAM RACING CARS", contain anything about Coatalen? M.L. Anderson

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by marion5drsn
Does the Book ,"SUNBEAM RACING CARS", contain anything about Coatalen? M.L. Anderson

Yes, loads. If you're referring to your earlier question about whether he designed the 4.9-litre engine, the book is not absolutely clear. However, he was chief engineer of te company at the time. The engine does seem to have been a 6-cylinder version of the 1914 TT engine. Thee is a famous story about how the TT engine was created after a 3-litre Peugeot was taken to Coatalen's home in some secrecy. "Ah, Pomeroy, 'ee ees a vise man who copy wizout altair." There were, however, a number of detailed differences between the Peugesot and Sunbeam engines.

[robert dick]

I don’t know more about the whereabouts of these Sunbeam racers than Heal’s book.

Concerning the influence of Coatalen : Does anyone know who was the engineer between Coatalen and the finished 1914 – 1921 racers? In other words who had, in the 1910s, the position of Henry, or Bertarione and Becchia?
Which part played Edmond Moglia?

[marion5drsn]

Quote;

I don't know more about the whereabouts of these Sunbeam racers than Heal's book.

Concerning the influence of Coatalen: Does anyone know who was the engineer between Coatalen and the finished 1914 - 1921 racers? In other words who had, in the 1910s, the position of Henry, or Bertarione and Becchia?
Which part played Edmond Moglia?

I am going to see if this book is available from my source in Wisconsin, " Classic Motorbooks".
I am also interested in the other gentlemen that you have mentioned Henry (Henri)
I know about but the last three do not ring a bell in my memory.
The reason I am interested in these men is their association that you have made! I also do not know if you have done any research on the infamous Arab V-8 engine, which always interests me, at least in a negative way. I will attempt to get back to this at some other time.

Yours M.L. Anderson

[robert dick]

Heal’s book is probably difficult to find, was published about ten years ago, and at the time was already expensive.

Henry = Ernest Henry, the engineer behind the DOHC Peugeot and responsible for the 1922 two-litre Sunbeam.

Vincenzo Bertarione + Walter Becchia = beside Cesare Cappa, Tranquillo Zerbi and Vittorio Jano responsible for the Fiat racers, and then for the 1923/24/25 Sunbeam.

Edmond Moglia = sometimes given responsible for the 1921 three-litre Sunbeam, responsible for a 1500 cc (French) touring Talbot, mainly known for his design of the Bugatti roots blower.

[Steve L]

I am 99.99% sure that there is only one Indianapolis Sunbeam still in existence, owned by a VSCC member in England.

The others gradually got used up at Brooklands. One was driven by Kaye Don, and another by Malcolm Campbell - I think this was later used by Dunlop for tyre testing.

The Anthony Heal Sunbeam book is a great read, and certainly worth tracking down.

There have been many articles written in Motor Sport magazine about the Sunbeam racing cars too, including one on the surviving Indy car in the June 1990 edition, and a broader article looking at all the Indy Sunbeam activities in the January 1983 issue.

There is also an article about all the 4.9 litre cars (May 1986).

It would also be nice to learn more about the V12 racer that went to America on which I believe the world's first V12 production car was based.

Edmond Moglia - was this the guy responsible for the "Djelmo" Land Speed Record attempt car allegedly based on a design bought from Louis Coatalen at Sunbeam?

http://www.members.a...nesuk/djelmoweb

[marion5drsn]

SUNBEAM RACING CARS;

I have since gone to my usual source for books and they tell me exactly what you state that it is out of print. So I must go to a "BOOK LOOK" place and see if they can find a copy. Will still get back to you if I find a copy.


Quote;
It would also be nice to learn more about the V12 racer that went to America on which I believe the world's first V12 production car was based.

The first V-12 engine that I know of was the Packard of 1914 which raced at Sheepshead Bay. The very next year Packard started production on the Packard Twin Six. Which many believe is the first production V-12 engine. See address below.

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=50382

Henri (Henry) was a friend of Marc Birkigt Amen of Hispano-Suiza fame and may have been involved in the design of many engines by firms and people who gave him little or no credit for his work, but we will never know.



Yours, M.L. Anderson

[Mark Ballard]

VSCC Edwardian race Mallory Park 2001

[marion5drsn]

Altho this is not directly related to the race cars it is a part of Sunbeam group.

http://www.localhist...eamEngines7.htm

M.L. Anderson

[McRonalds]

I found some information & pictures about the 5-l-Sunbeam in William Boddys book about Brooklands:
lt was at Whitsun, that a very fast car appeared in the form of one of the 6-cylinder, twin-ohc, 81.5 x 157mm, 4,914cc Sunbeams that had been built, more or less in secret, at Wolverhampton during the latter part of the war for the 1919 Indianapolis race, and which developed 152 bhp at 3.20O rpm on petrol. These cars did not run in America, but Louis Coatalen (?!) had put a grey single(!)-seater body on one of them for Brooklands racing. Harry Hawker, a famous airman, was entrusted with this Sunbeam and he won both the '20 Lightning Handicaps, the Short race at an average of 98.5 mph, the Long race at 101.25mph, lapping at 108.98mph. During one of these races he inadvertently put the gear-lever into 2nd after it had slipped out of top and the engine ran up to 5.70O rpm without suffering damage.



The modified Indy-Racer at Brooklands

Boddy wrote more about the Coatalen-Sunbeam some chapters later:
This new Sunbeam, the very first of a new breed of postwar aero-engined cars, promised well. Alas, Harry Hawker experienced a tyre burst while coming fast under the Members' Bridge in practice on the morning of the Summer meeting and, although he fought the big car into the Railway Straight he could hold it no longer. lt shot clean through the corrugated-iron boundary fence at about 5O mph. Fortunately the damage was not extensive, and although the car was not run again at Brooklands during 1920, it made fastest time at the Gaillon hillclimb in October at 108.74 mph, driven by Rene Thomas. Incidentally, at the time of the crash the car had artillery wheels and was white, with a black cowl.

Coatalen was destined to be unlucky, for during the meeting Capt Geach crashed the 5-litre Sunbeam, although not before he had achieved a lap at 108.74 mph. lt burst a tyre, overturned several times at the end of the Railway Straight, ending up in a field, Geach miraculously being only slightly injured. The car was rebuilt and raced again before the end of the 1920 season.



A Boillot(?!) in the single-seater 5-litre Sunbeam.

I also found one Sunbeam in the Indy starterlist in 1916, driven by Josef Christiaens, a green and silver painted, 6-cylinder car.

[marion5drsn]

Quote from McRonalds:
Coatalen was destined to be unlucky.

Some of it, if not a lot of L. Coatalens luck was he didn't copy all the right stuff.
When he copied the lower end of the De Dion-Bouton aircraft engine he should have copied the whole thing, as I believe M. Birkigt did at Hispano-Suiza. When he put an articulated connecting rod in the Sunbeam Arab V-8 he laid the foundations to the Worlds Worst V-8 engine. This short connecting rod along with a 180-degree crankshaft did that engine in for sure. It made the one side of the engine's conrods follow an elliptical path while the other side of the engine followed a circle. 180-degee crankshafts need long conrods to reduce the Secondary Shake. Yours, M.L. Anderson

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by McRonalds

Boddy wrote more about the Coatalen-Sunbeam some chapters later:
This new Sunbeam, the very first of a new breed of postwar aero-engined cars, promised well. Alas, Harry Hawker experienced a tyre burst while coming fast under the Members' Bridge in practice on the morning of the Summer meeting and, although he fought the big car into the Railway Straight he could hold it no longer. lt shot clean through the corrugated-iron boundary fence at about 5O mph. Fortunately the damage was not extensive, and although the car was not run again at Brooklands during 1920, it made fastest time at the Gaillon hillclimb in October at 108.74 mph, driven by Rene Thomas. Incidentally, at the time of the crash the car had artillery wheels and was white, with a black cowl.

The car Boddy refers to here is not one of the 6-cylinder Indianapolis cars, but the 12-cylinder, 18-litre car. Its engine ws based on the Sunbeam Manitou aero engine, but Sunbeam claimed that it had been designed and made for the car.

It was later sold to Malcolm Campbell who twice set the LAnd Speed record with it.

[marion5drsn]

I ordered my book,"Sunbeam Racing Cars" and just received it yesterday Mar.-28 -2003, ordered about Dec.-13-2002 .
It is in perfect condition even in the original box.
I even found Sheepshead Bay on the New York City map in Brooklyn on the very southern tip. It was originally a horse track. Near Coney Island.

Yours M.L. Anderson