20 replies to this topic

[RSNS]

Well this must be an trivial question to all the erudites in this forum. It concerns that most famous of races, the Nürbirgring 57.

I was trying to find out where Fangio overtook Collins and Hawthorne. I read his accounts in Fangio and Carozzo, Moss and Nye and also in the piece to be found in Ben Lovejoy's site.

The first attempt is easy enough: the North curve of the bit close to the pits. There, Fangio ran wide and Collins overtook him.

After that, there was a twisty bit - that must be the Hatzenbach - and then 'a straight leading up to a bridge'. Now what is that? The Quiddelbacher Hohe? Or was it the bridge just after Arenberg? This is suggested by Fangio's words: [after the overtaking] 'we went to the bobturn' (which must be the Fuchsröhre, as Moss suggests).

The overtaking of Hawthorn took place after 'a series of curves', where 'a short straight ending in a 90 degree left, followed by an equally sharp turn to the right'. In another version it was 'just before Breidsheid'.

It could therefore be the Metzgefelt, before the Kallenhart. Or the Wehrseifen, except that the left turning bend there is more than 90 degrees.

Can anyone enlighten me?

RSNS

[Vitesse2]

You're looking for the second time Fangio caught and passed them, of course

Cyril Posthumus in "German Grand Prix" points out that Fangio first passed Collins at the South Curve. Collins regained the position, only to lose it again at North Curve. Hawthorn? "Fangio got him on a downhill swoop near Ahremberg ....", so somewhere between Schwedenkreuz and Fuchsrohre.

[Vincenzo Lancia]

There is a video available here: http://www.britishpathe.com Fangio overtaking Collins in the first lefthand kink of the southcurve with Hawthorn still in the lead by a couble of carlengths.

Hope I'm right about the link...you've got to sign up and the downloadprocedure is a little awkward, but there is tons of stuff...

[Vincenzo Lancia]

wait...can't make the link work from here...

Edit: it works now.....

[Vitesse2]

DSJ's report in Motor Sport says only "before Breidscheid", which isn't a lot of help.

[Vincenzo Lancia]

Does'nt he tell in the article from 84, that Arturo will post when he sees this?

Very nice reading btw.

[Vincenzo Lancia]

ok, here's a qoute from the article...It can (and should) be read in its full length here: http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=42972

but here's what he say about the passing of Hawthorn and Collins:

"I began the hunt, and as we shot past the pits I was breathing down Peter’s neck. Hawthorn was only a few yards in front but there were only 2 laps to go! Coming into the North Curve, just after the pits, I tried to take Collins but I overdid it and he was able to stay ahead. His line was better than mine into the next bend and he stayed in 2nd place. But I had the bit between my teeth. I couldn’t allow Peter to have the slightest relief, so I put pressure on him everywhere, going flat-out, the throttle pedal welded to the floorboard.

We got into a left-right-left switchback and I moved right beside him coming into a left-hander that had a narrow, little concrete bridge at the end of a blind up slope. Then another downslope and after that you turned sharp right, fast but very, very dodgy. The little bridge was coming at us at a million miles an hour and there we were, side by side, with me tap-dancing on the right shoulder of the road. Theoretically the bridge was just wide enough for both of us to go through together, but how brave can you get?

Finally it was Peter who lifted off at the last moment and I was 2nd. The other Ferrari was right there. It was coming nearer, swaying from side to side as Hawthorn really piled it on. I began to wonder if I was going to get through, but the opportunity came by itself just before Breidscheid, about halfway around the circuit. There were several bends, then a short straight in which we could breathe a bit, and then two bends, a 90-degree left and a sharp right. On the straight, with trees beside and in front of us, and a cliff to our left, Mike went right to take an ideal line when he came to the bend. That was my chance.

I hurled the car into the inside of the bend. I think I must have put two wheels on the grass verge because otherwise the two of us wouldn’t have made it through. Mike did a double take when he saw me where he didn’t expect me, and he lost the fine edge of his driving for a moment. Well, that’s the way it goes. You should never let the other guy have the inside of your bend.

So I got into the lead and at this moment I really turned it on because I wanted to get clear away as soon as I could to avoid any surprises from the boys behind me. The result was another lap record, at 9:17.4, 8 sec faster than in practice despite the car being as tired as I was.

In the last lap I made sure. I didn’t have too much margin to play with, because, of course, Mike was mad as hell and he wasn’t about to give anything else away. Nor was I after the hard work I’d put in to get back into the lead. When I got the checkered flag, Hawthorn was just 3 sec away. Well, they say races should be won with as short a lead as possible, don’t they? "

hmm strange he does'nt mention the passing of Collins in the south-curve....

[Lotus23]

In 1958 I was hitch-hiking my way from home to college and was picked up by a fellow a few years older than I. We quickly fell into a discussion of racing in general and F1 in particular, and he told me of having Been There on 4 August the year before. Even then that race was the stuff of legend.

A large photo of a smiling JMF taking that checkered flag hangs on my wall as I write this.

[Arturo Pereira]

I do not know the exact point where Fangio passed Hawthorn. The above mentioned booka and article is all the information I could get, and I never talked with him about this especific matter when we met.

Maybe Doug and Don can give us more information.

Arturo

PS: there is a picture of Juam Manuel's Maserati just racing between Hawthorn and Collins' Ferraris. This picture was taken while they were going through a right hand turn. I think this picture is part of a movie and the turn could be U turn just before the Karrousel, but I am not sure about this location. I can not post the picture here, so maybe I can email it to somebody that can post it.

[Vincenzo Lancia]

Hi Arturo

I hope you did not misunderstand my joke about you posting the Fangio article. That I know it, is because of you.

Anyway, do you mean this picture?

http://www.jmfangio....ia57fangio2.jpg

That picture is actually a cut out of a much bigger picture that you can see a demo of at LAT.
You can buy prints of it too...
Another picture taken seconds before shoes clearly that it's the southcurve. (imho)

http://www.latphoto.co.uk/ click archive and type "Fangio" and "German Grand Prix 1957"
in the appropriate places.

The video I mentioned above has a sequence that reminds very much of that picture, as it on a certain point has allmost the same angle - all three seen from behind.

[Arturo Pereira]

Hi Vincenzo

Sure, np

You are right. That turn seems to be SouthCurve I had never saw the other one

Arturo

[RSNS]

Thank you all for the input.

This is proving more difficult than expected. I'll repeat what I know:

COLLINS

Fangio overtook Collins on the North Curve but ran wide and Collins regained his place. Then

'we reached a short straight up to a bridge' - this might be the bridge of the Quiddelbacher Hohe.

But he goes on and says, immediately after the overtaking:

'I moved up alongside him there (where??) and this time he gave way, and we went down into what we called the bobturn (the Fuchröhre) into a right hand bend'. (That's Moss and Nye, but Fangio and Carozzo is similar). That right hand bend must be the Arenberg. So it would seem Fangio overtook Collins between the Hatzenbach and Arenberg, where there was a bridge.

Anyone know where this bridge was (is?)? Is it the Quiddelbacher Höhe?

'We got into a left-right-left switchback and I moved right beside him coming into a left-hander that had a narrow, little concrete bridge at the end of a blind up slope. Then another downslope and after that you turned sharp right, fast but very, very dodgy.' That's Ben Lovejoy's version. It also seems to indicate the Quiddelbacher Höhe, the left-right-left switchback being the end on the Hatzenbach (or the Hocheichen).

HAWTHORN

Fangio seems to have tailed Hawthorne through the Fuchröhre:

Ben Lovejoy:

'I began to wonder if I was going to get through, but the opportunity came by itself just before Breidscheid, about halfway around the circuit. There were several bends, then a short straight in which we could breathe a bit, and then two bends, a 90-degree left and a sharp right. On the straight, with trees beside and in front of us, and a cliff to our left, Mike went right to take an ideal line when he came to the bend. That was my chance.'

There is a lot of information here: the 'cliff to our left ' seems to indicate that was after Kallenhard. Or was the cliff apparent just after the overtaking, at Metsgesfeld?

Fangio and Carozzo and Moss and Nye:
After that (he doesn't say which!!) series of curves came a short straight, which ended in a ninety degree turn to the left, followed by an equaly sharp turn to the right'.

So this would indicate that the series of curves might be the Adenauer Forst, the short straight the one into Metzgefeld and metzgefeld the 90 degree left. But Metzgefelt is, I think, not a 90 degree bend...

And 'just before Breidsheid' seems to be the downard left hander in Wehrseifen. There we can indeed find the cliff on the left.

Further help would certainly be appreciated.

RSNS

[LittleChris]

Of course, you're relying on his memory as regards where the incidents happened.

[RSNS]

Little Chris:

Yes, but he knew the Ring quite well, and, from his memories, it seemed he retained a kind of picture of the events.

But I was really expecting the places of the overtakings to be well known.

For instance, Stirling Moss talked about them as if he was told about them - perhaps by Hawthorn and Collins themselves. As if he knew precisely the way they had happened.

So I expected someone in these fora would have heard about it. As it is, it seems the legend is quite foggy.

I went over the map several times, and think he overtook Collins just before the Flugplatz and Hawthorne perhaps at the left hander before Kallenhard which, in a way, is 'just before Breidscheid'...

Let's see if someone comes with inside information.

RSNS

[Vincenzo Lancia]

And to complicate things, we've got to remeber, as Vitesse2 pointed out, that he overtook both of them two times.

One thing is clear: He DID overtake Collins at the southcurve, and in the 6 maybe 10 seconds after that he did NOT run wide. And in that overtaking, he gets the inside of the first lefthandkink in the south curve, with two wheels in the dirt. ( could be the cause of Collins' broken goggles ).
If we regard that as a fact, the first attempt in the Nordcurve seems likely to believe too.

Edit: nope....see post below...

What Fangio says about the Collins overtaking, might very well be true - of the FIRST overtaking. He's telling the story 26 years later, without the other two to correct small mistakes in the cronologhy.

About Hawthorn I tend to believe it sounds as the first lefthander after Adenauer Forst, allthough it is'nt 90 degrees.

On the other hand "90 degrees left, and sharp right and a short straight before a sharp left" sounds like left over the bridge at Wehrseifen then sharp right, and a short straight before Breitscheid. ( oops am I mixing up those two? ) well lets call the second place Exmuhle

On the other hand that description COULD be of the first overtaking as well......

Sherlock?? anybody??

[Vincenzo Lancia]

oops..

In some of my "thinking" above, I want the northcurve to come before the southcurve.

well well well..

[RSNS]

Just to complicate things a bit, here is Hawthorn's version:

"... we rushed through the endless tree-lined curves of the Hocheichen and on to the Quiddelbacher Höhe, but just as I was going into a slow right-hander Fangio cut sharply inside me and forced me onto the grass and almost into the ditch."

That would suggest that the overtaking was way before the Kallenhardt - 'A slow right hander' would suggest the Arenberg.

So perhaps we'll just never know?

I think someone that has acces to the race broadcastings (if they exist) should be able to know for sure.

Anyone?

RSNS

[RSNS]

I seem not to be interesting people here, but I'll post my conclusions anyway.

1. The first overtaking (lap 3) of Collins was at the North Curve, just after the pits, the same place where he tried to overtake him later.

2. The first overtaking of Hawthorn was on the Adenau descent (Wehrseifen, probably).

3. Fangio tried and failed to overtake Collins the second time at the North Curve. He drew level with him after the Hochheichen and passed him at the bridge before the Flugplatz.

4. He overtook Hawthorn just before the Kallenhard. In the low resolution maps you just see a progressive left hander, but there actually is a 90º left closely followed by a sharp right. Hawthorn recollected the right hander probably because Fangio passed him in the left hander and, taking his line to the right hander, squeezed him into the ditch.

So this is as far as I can go.

[fines]

Originally posted by RSNS
I seem not to be interesting people here...

Not true, you're doing a good job!

It's just that I can't drag myself off to do this kind of research myself, too many other projects you see! But this all is part of the excellence of TNF, and will be another of those countless jigsaw pieces that one can look up here!

[RSNS]

Fines:

Thank you for the encouragement!

[Arturo Pereira]

Well done RSNS !!!

Arturo