42 replies to this topic

[ianm1808]

I remember reading a couple of years ago that on the day of his crash , Williams were there to potentially sign Johnny Herbert for the following season. Was this just speculation or is there truth to the rumour?

If he had signed would we know be talking of Herbert in Schumacher terms? Was he really that good? I have read that he's considered to have had (or still has) the most natural talent since Clark. What are your opinions?

[Ruairidh]

Oddly enough I was thinking of Herbert's shunt driving home last night.

December's MotorSport has a good article on Peter Arundell. In it there is the thought - attributed to Colin Chapman - that a driver is never the same after a big crash.

I don't have the article with me but the thinking goes that before a driver has a big 'un - he has nerves of steel ("It'll never happen to me"), after the driver comes back from a big 'un it is always at the back of his mind that it could happen again - and it hurts! - and that slows him.

I was trying to think of drivers who had come back from really bad crashes and had fulfilled their promise. I guess one measurement is whether they won a GP - hence why I thought of Johnny H. but I'm not sure that is the proper measure.

I'd be interested in what others have to say on how good Johnny might have been.....

[ianm1808]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that this is a question based entirely on hindsight and what if's..

1. What if he hadn't had that crash?

2. If the truth was that Williams were going to sign him , would he have been a WC (or a two or three times WC) ? Was he really that good?

I have my opinions based on the positive. But I'd really like to hear other people's opinions..

Thanks.

[fines]

Hmm, hmmm... can't decide. I think he still had the speed in his Lotus days, but lacked the consistency. Maybe, maybe not... How about Michel Trollé?

[Peter Morley]

My understanding was that the first time Johnny tested the Benetton he went faster than Schumacher, after that he wasn't given access to Schumacher's telemetry.
That, and not being able to press the brake pedal hard enough, can't have helped!!

Given his consistent outpacing of Hakkinen at Lotus and the fact he won everything on his way to F1, I always felt Johnny was the most obvious candidate for future World Champion.

Of course the fact he does not mouth off all the time or seek loads of publicity, means that most people overlooked him - I've never understood why F1 team managers listen to PR people rather than look at the facts (or god forbid a non-F1 race), I guess they are too busy counting the money.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ruairidh
I was trying to think of drivers who had come back from really bad crashes and had fulfilled their promise. I guess one measurement is whether they won a GP - hence why I thought of Johnny H. but I'm not sure that is the proper measure.

I'd be interested in what others have to say on how good Johnny might have been.....

I think Niki Lauda has to be the example of a driver who came back from a big accident and was at least as good as before - how much bigger can it be than something you get the Last Rites after?

I only saw Johnny a couple of times in junior formulae, always thought he was good in the way that a driver on the national scene is every couple of years but not one of those obvious champions - then again he seemed to still be improving as he got into 3000s and clearly had the determination and bravery. In the right car in the early 90s he probably could've been well-placed to win more races - put him in an FW14 for example and who knows what might've happened?

pete

[karlth]

Mansell didn't seem to lose any speed inspite of some massive crashes and Schumacher's speed survived his 1999 Silverstone crash.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by petefenelon


I think Niki Lauda has to be the example of a driver who came back from a big accident and was at least as good as before - how much bigger can it be than something you get the Last Rites after?

Yep, couldn't agree more. But in this (and in many other ways) Lauda always struck me as the "exception that proved the rule".

[biercemountain]

Considering that Mika almost died in a big crash prior to ascending to his Championship status, I think he bucks the trend with regards to drivers slowing down after a frightful shunt.

Having only caught the tail-end of Johnny Herbert's F1 career I would have never ranked him as one of the greats. Driving for a midfield team like Stewart probably didn't help things much. He seems like a nice bloke, just not particularly amazing as far as the driving thing goes.

[BRG]

Herbert is a bit of a mystery. Certainly, pre-Brands Hatch accident (which was a huge and horrible one) he looked like a real shooting star who might be one of the real greats. After the accident, he was (and is) still very good, but that final edge seems to have been lost.

He remains a problem for the Schumacher fans - either the Benetton was not the best car and Schumacher won only due to his own brilliance, in which case Herbert was exceptional as well, in that he managed to win twice in the same car, despite receiving second best treatment by the team - or the Bennetton was easily the best car, because even a journeyman like Herbert could get two wins in it, and therefore Schumacher's WDC was no more worthy than Mansell's.

Personally, I subscribe to the former, as Herbert also got Stewart/Jaguar's sole win. but then there is the saga of Herbert's notorious luck (or lack of it). Maybe it all came in three big dollops, at Silverstone, Monza and the 'Ring?

[fines]

The Benetton B195 was easily the best car in 1995, virtually as fast as the Williams, and reliable as a Swiss watch. Why Herbert performed so poorly (relatively that is) remains a mystery. Lack of confidence? Perhaps so, the car seemed to be overly nervous on the limit, but then again so were most of the cars of the era. But in qualifying at the Hungaroring Schumacher spun through 360 degrees on the last turn, motored away to the finish line - and still bested Herbert's qualifying time! That must've hurt...

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by BRG
Herbert is a bit of a mystery. Certainly, pre-Brands Hatch accident (which was a huge and horrible one) he looked like a real shooting star who might be one of the real greats. After the accident, he was (and is) still very good, but that final edge seems to have been lost.

He remains a problem for the Schumacher fans - either the Benetton was not the best car and Schumacher won only due to his own brilliance, in which case Herbert was exceptional as well, in that he managed to win twice in the same car, despite receiving second best treatment by the team - or the Bennetton was easily the best car, because even a journeyman like Herbert could get two wins in it, and therefore Schumacher's WDC was no more worthy than Mansell's.

Personally, I subscribe to the former, as Herbert also got Stewart/Jaguar's sole win. but then there is the saga of Herbert's notorious luck (or lack of it). Maybe it all came in three big dollops, at Silverstone, Monza and the 'Ring?

I don't think Herbert's two wins are that important. Neither win was on merit, at Silverstone he was outpaced by Schumacher, Hill and Coulthard (both Williams-drivers), at Monza he won due to retirements from both Williamsdrivers, both Ferraridrivers and Schumacher.

If Herbert's 1995 season is anything to judge the car from, then the Benetton was definately inferior to the Williams, and possibly inferior to the Ferrari as well. Now personally, I rate Herbert very high indeed. I didn't see him race before his Brands Hatch crash, but he obviously had some major talents, and in comparison with most of the other drivers that suffered huge crashes (Lauda, Häkkinen etc), Herbert's crash, though not life threatening, actually did more damage to his physical abilities to race a car. It's more or less an excepted view that Herbert got second-hand treatment at Benetton, though I only believe he was "forbidden" to see Schumacher's telemetry at Imola and Barcelona, as he himself has made comments about the difference between his own cornering technique and Schumacher's from judgin telemetry.

It's a bit like judging the relative pace of the 1986 Lotus, where one driver (Senna) was performing exceptionally well, and the other (Dumfries) didn't perform at all. Lotus is a more extreme case, as Dumfries wasn't really qualified to drive in F1 at the time, and the neglect towards Dumfries was probably even greater than that towards Herbert at Benetton. Either way; in both cases there are big differences in how the majority of F1 fans rate the performance of the cars.

One thing that's interesting though, is that after Adelaide in 1995, when the drivers swapped teams (Schumacher->Ferrari, Berger/Alesi-> Benetton), all three drivers seemed to agree that the Ferrari was the better car. Schumacher reportedly said something along the lines of "I would easily have been WDC in this car", and Berger claimed that the Benetton was undrivable...

[ianm1808]

To be honest , I don't think you can put JH's crash in the same context as any of those above. Johnny didn't lose his speed due to a loss of "balls" but more because his legs were so shattered after the accident.

Taken from the JH website...

Early career

Johnny Herbert's racing career began in 1974 at the tender age of 10. His parents, Bob and Jane, supported him from the start and spent all of their weekends at the kart races in the early days. Johnny's obvious speed and ability in a kart were evident right from the start to anyone who saw him race.

In his July 1998 column for F1 Racing magazine, Johnny looked back on his early years in karts with fond memories:

"Karting brings you out of yourself. I was very shy as a kid, and it brought me out of my shell. And you learn about racing and the behaviour necessary for a professional career at a much earlier age. It's essential experience.

"When I first went to Buckmore [Park (an outdoor kart circuit in Kent)], I went as a boy scout, because of course it's a scouting venue as well. I'd got hooked on karting on holiday and pestered Dad until we got one, then I started running at Tilbury and Buckmore. I remember when it was just a speedbowl, not the sophisticated set-up it is now. I was about nine at the time! Scouts would turn up with funny, self-built karts, and I'd bring along my racing kart, a Sprint, and thrash them.

"Then I started driving a thing called a Tarantella, and through that I got to meet a guy called Bill Sisley, because he was selling spares. Dad and I met him at Surbiton and he started helping us out. Bits and bobs to begin with, then maybe an engine or two. I started driving one of his Kestrel karts.

"Bill has built up Buckmore, and he's one of those people I always recall fondly. He did so much to further my career. He helped me to win British Championships and to compete in the junior World Championship in Luxembourg, and he gave me the opportunities that helped me to leap up two or three performance levels. I ran sixth that time, until the chain came off with two laps to go.

"And, I suppose, Bill helped me to grow up, because as soon as I left school I went to work for him in Swanley. I used to cycle 30 miles there and 30 back each day, from home in Romford. It was quite funny; as this shy kid, I used to sell kart parts to people such as Andrea de Cesaris and Eddie Cheever, who'd often drop in. Eventually, I'd drive the van, build the fun karts Bill was producing, and, of course, race. It was Bill who got me my first Formula Ford drive too, in a Royale RP26 via Terry Gray's dad, Vic."



In 1978, wider recognition of Johnny's talent followed when he became British junior karting champion. Progressing through the ranks, he was British senior 135cc karting champion in 1979 and 1982. Johnny was also classified 18th in the World Championships at Kalmar, Sweden, in 1982.

Johnny moved up to Formula Ford at the end of 1983, and he crowned two full years in the highly competitive series with a triumphant display at the 1985 Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch, marking him out as one of Britain's fastest rising stars.



This was how Autosport reported the emotional win:

"And so, after starting his heat the day before from the back of the grid with a 10sec penalty, 20-year-old Johnny Herbert crossed the line to wild cheers. It was no more than [his team] deserved. Never the ones to make excuses, always sporting and down to earth, the small team had taken on the Van Diemen hordes and beaten them.

"It was an emotional moment and every one of the appreciative crowd knew it. Once more the Formula Ford Festival and World Cup had produced superb entertainment. Brands Hatch last Sunday was all about Quest Racing and Johnny Herbert."

After one victory during a season of FF2000 in 1986, Johnny then graduated to Formula 3.


Formula 3

Johnny's debut in F3 was with the Mike Rowe team at the end of 1986. He finished an excellent fourth in his first race at Donington Park (shades of his F1 debut with Benetton only three years later). He then went one better and climbed the lower step of the F3 podium, finishing third in the prestigious Cellnet Super Prix at Brands Hatch. Johnny's speed and skill attracted much attention and Eddie Jordan was quick to snap him up to drive in F3 for the 1987 season, saying that Johnny had "an absolutely brilliant natural talent".

1987 was a triumphant year for Johnny with Jordan. He won five races and claimed the championship at his first attempt. He also won the Autosport award for National Racing Driver of the Year, presented by Tiff Needell.

He was rewarded with a test drive in the Benetton F1 car at Brands Hatch. During the test, Johnny outpaced regular driver Thierry Boutsen with a stunning performance, confirming him as a rising star. Nigel Mansell, who was also at Brands testing that day, pulled into the pits to ask: "Just who is driving that thing?". The team were so impressed that Johnny was invited to take part in further tests at Imola and Jerez. Finishing the season on another high note, Johnny won the Cellnet F3 Super Prix at Brands Hatch for the second year running. The following fateful year, he was in Formula 3000.

F3000

In 1988, Johnny and the Jordan team moved up to F3000 together. Their title challenge began promisingly at Jerez with victory first time out in the Jordan Reynard 88D-Cosworth DFV.

Unfortunately, Johnny's luck deserted him during the second round at Vallelunga, where he was injured in a crash whilst dicing with Gregor Foitek for the lead. As a result of that accident, he had to sit out the next round at Pau, returning to finish 7th in the fourth round at Silverstone. Next was Monza, one of the best races of Johnny's career - this is how the 1988/89 Autocourse Annual recounted it:

"The star in Italy was Herbert, the plucky Briton focus for the attention of the tifosi. Unable to refire his engine when the race was restarted (following Giroix's massive crash), then balked by a multi-car dust-up at the first chicane, Johnny produced perhaps the drive of the year in clawing his way back to a brilliant third place at the flag. His car control in the Camel Reynard was awesome, and the bark of that Cosworth as he jabbed the power, his right foot buried earlier than anyone, will long ring in the ears of those who heard it." - With grateful acknowledgement to Autocourse.

In August 1988, Johnny was asked by Team Lotus to stand in for its regular drivers during tyre testing at Monza, where he immediately outpaced the reigning World Champion, Nelson Piquet. Unfortunately, at Brands Hatch on the 21st of that month, Johnny was involved in a dreadful multi-car accident. It was one of the worst accidents ever seen in F3000, and it prematurely ended Johnny's F3000 season when he sustained serious injuries to his feet and ankles.

The Autosport race report, and a series of TV screenshots, capture the crash in all its horror. Some may choose not to read the report or see the photos but they have been included here as a historical record as one of the most important events in Johnny's career.

This is how Johnny remembered it, in his F1 Racing column in 1998:

"I remember lying in intensive care while all the doctors were debating what to do with me. What I didn't know was that they were all convinced of one thing: my driving career was over. Initially it was a question of which bits they might cut off. Then when they realised what I did for a living, it was more a case of how they would try to fix the mess, and whether I'd ever walk again. I was ignorant of all this, but my parents and Becky, my wife, had to bear all of it.

"I got a lot of press because of the accident, and of a lot of people thought my career was over. But when it's you lying there you can't afford to think that way. You daren't. I just got into a recuperation programme as soon as I could and worked as hard as I could. If I got back into racing then it was going to be worth all the effort and the pain.

"For years afterwards, bits and pieces of grass or rubber would work their way out of my feet. I think the last bits appeared in 1991! Recovery is an interesting exercise. You learn a lot about yourself in those situations; you can't rely on what other people tell you. Doctors are pessimistic. If I'd listened to them, I'd have been in bed for a year. As it was, I crashed at the end of August and I was driving a Benetton in December. If you work hard enough at something, you can overcome all sorts of problems."

Through sheer hard work, grit and persistence, Johnny was back, only seven months after that crash, making his stunning Formula 1 debut...

[joachimvanwing]

I reckon Herbert as a pure drivertalent. By the time he was in lower formulas, he was reckognised as WDC material. In a way he has had a very bad carreer, keeping his talent in mind. He never really developed into a complete and acomplished F1driver. IMO there's a parallel with Verstappen. A pure drivertalent with tremendous groundspeed but just like Johnny, a bad carreer, wrong teams at the wrong times, enough speed but way too litlle character, etc.

I can't believe there wasn't more in Herbert as a driver, than what he has shown us over the years.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I reckon Herbert as a pure drivertalent. By the time he was in lower formulas, he was reckognised as WDC material. In a way he has had a very bad carreer, keeping his talent in mind. He never really developed into a complete and acomplished F1driver. IMO there's a parallel with Verstappen. A pure drivertalent with tremendous groundspeed but just like Johnny, a bad carreer, wrong teams at the wrong times, enough speed but way too litlle character, etc.

Yes I agree, and this goes for countless of drivers...
Herbert, potential WC? Yes, had he been number one at Ferrari during 2002, I don't think he could have failed....

It is a matter of beeing at the right place at the time. Herbert is in the same league as other losers like Irvine, Barrichello and Coulthard. No better, no worse. Some talent, sure, but lacking the ability to take the last step. But still it could happen during freak circumstances....

[Slyder]

I somewhat disagree. Herbert had what it took to be WDC, but I firmly believe that all that was dashed in that dreadful crash at Brands Hatch 1988.

After that he was never the same again, but despite that he really showed potential from time to time.

[wati]

Originally posted by fines
The Benetton B195 was easily the best car in 1995, virtually as fast as the Williams, and reliable as a Swiss watch. Why Herbert performed so poorly (relatively that is) remains a mystery. Lack of confidence? Perhaps so, the car seemed to be overly nervous on the limit, but then again so were most of the cars of the era.

But in qualifying at the Hungaroring Schumacher spun through 360 degrees on the last turn, motored away to the finish line - and still bested Herbert's qualifying time! That must've hurt...

I doubt that b195 was easily the best car.

That spin in Hungary... Wasn't it in 96 and beating Eddie's time?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by petefenelon


I think Niki Lauda has to be the example of a driver who came back from a big accident and was at least as good as before - how much bigger can it be than something you get the Last Rites after?

6 months in traction? Fangio.

[oldtimer]

I have always been puzzled by the hype around Johnny Herbert. Really, he fell into his three wins, though the falling couldn't have happened to a nicer chap.

The general wisdom was that, after the awful accident, he could not take full advantage of the braking capabilities of an F1 car. But if he was WDC material, why didn't we see some compensatary smoothness, precision, and very fast consistency?

Why weren't we asking, "What's he doing so far up the grid?"

Or, "There's Johnny, on the podium again."

Or, " Right up with Schumacher again, and Schumacher's got two good feet."

My understanding of the Benetton was that it was very 'pointy' to meet Schumacher's taste. Too pointy, it seems for Herbert, Berger, and even Alesi with his reputed reflexive car control.

[RedFever]

"after the driver comes back from a big 'un it is always at the back of his mind that it could happen again - and it hurts! - and that slows him.

I was trying to think of drivers who had come back from really bad crashes and had fulfilled their promise."

Do only drivers who hurt themselves count? otherwise, Gilles Villeneuve survived flying and rolling around on his 4th GP (Fuji77), an accident where his car lost the engine 9!), which killed a marshal on landing, and later survived hitting the wall at the Tosa while approaching at 280KMh and a tire exploded and was blinded for about 20 seconds because of the violent impact. He didn't hurt himslef but he sure realized how easy it was to die. It never slowed him though

[ianm1808]

Found the article.... Stolen without permission from the JH website and it originally appeared in F1 Racing...

Warning - a very long post!!!!

"Some you win, some you lose"
Tony Dodgkins wrote the following article about Johnny, which appears in the August 1997 issue of F1 Racing magazine. In the excellent and revealing article, Johnny talks frankly about how the 1988 F3000 accident has affected him, about other drivers, what he really thinks of Flavio Briatore, and how he happy he is at Sauber.

Friday evening, the Imola paddock. Johnny Herbert is celebrating his 100th Grand Prix. He gets to his feet to say a few sincere words:

"It's been okay, I guess. I've had a few ups and downs but overall it's worked out all right. I feel better now than for a long time. There's a good family atmosphere at Sauber, it's run fairly, I feel wanted and that's important."

The Swiss team, an underrated one, appreciate his words, and everyone wishes him well. Sincerely, too. No-one has a bad word for Johnny.

The best British talent since Jim Clark?
10 years ago he was being touted as the best British talent since Jim Clark. Herbert won the Formula Ford Festival in superb style in 1985, dominated the British F3 Championship in '87 and won first time out in F3000 in '88.

He astounded Benetton with a test in a turbo B187 on the Brands Indy circuit in which he lapped 0.3s quicker than regular driver Thierry Boutsen, despite never before having experienced more than 160bhp.

Herbert was world champion material; at that time you didn't mention Damon Hill in the same breath. Johnny was the golden boy.

The accident
But it all went out of the window at Brands Hatch on 21 August 1988 in one of the biggest multiple shunts ever seen at a British racetrack. Peter Collins already had an F1 option on Herbert for Benetton, and Frank Williams brought his motorhome to Kent that afternoon. Word was, there was a contract in his pocket.

"He turned up on the Sunday and he wanted to see me after the race," Johnny confirms. "We haven't met yet. I'm still waiting…"

After the race, Herbert was in Queen Mary's Hospital, Sidcup. His left ankle was snapped, and the right foot and toes suffered severe crush injuries. The prognosis Sunday night was that his racing days were over. Yet, seven months later, he took a Benetton to fourth place on his Grand Prix debut in Rio. [But, after five more races in which Johnny's competitiveness suffered because of his injured feet,] Flavio Briatore took over the Benetton reins from Collins, [and] Herbert was shown the door.

If Herbert had turned the ace of spades instead of the nine of diamonds at Brands Hatch in 1988, he could feasibly have four, maybe five, world titles to his credit by now. Pure fantasy? Not really.

Had he gone to Williams just when Renault was returning with its V10 and FW14 wasn't long coming, what then? There's every reason to believe that he would have got on it quicker than Mansell did in 1991, enjoyed the cakewalk years of '92-'93, salvaged one title out of the Schumacher years in '94-'95 and enjoyed the superiority of '96. Herbert was that good.

"The shunt killed all the Jim Clark stuff stone dead," he says. "In fact, I'm very lucky that we've got semi-automatic boxes and don't still have to heel and toe.

"If you think about the heel and toe, when I had normal feet the brake would stop say an inch before the throttle and the I'd roll on to the gas. But because I couldn't twist the ankle I almost had to do it the other way round. I had to change the pedals so that I braked until it almost passed the throttle and then move my foot across. It took a bit of adjusting."

So what about the braking now? We look down at his feet.

"I can't actually curl my toes. The actual ankles and joints are fine, but the way the right toes got smashed, all the ligaments have shrunk. My toes are flat and they don't move. So, although I'm braking with the ball of my foot, the pressure of the boot moves up to the tip of the toe. My pressure is all on the tip.

So there's still trouble generating enough force?

"No, no, the force is fine, it's the sensitivity. When I first raced again, during the last 10 laps or so, the tips were getting really bad. I made some insoles which took the pressure away. But the biggest help, definitely, is not having to do the heel and toe."

Herbert is brutally honest about not being the driver he was.

"I'm still not as good as I would have been if I hadn't had the shunt, for sure. In Formula 1 everything needs to be right. Michael Schumacher is the prime example. He came into F1 with a good team, he hasn't had any accidents since, he did well and it just builds and builds. Now he's the most confident person out there. As long as you feel mentally strong about yourself and you've had a good roll, it just keeps on rolling."

Damon and H-H
Herbert admits that it was a bit frustrating to watch Hill win 20-odd races but, again, he's philosophical.

"I can look back and say that if I hadn't had the crash I'd be in a better situation than Damon. But I've had the problem, I've got over it, I've won Le Mans and two Grands Prix anyway. If it had been the other way around with the feet that would have been it.

"Nowadays you have to be in a position where you feel very secure in a team. If you don't, things start to go wrong. Heinz-Harald, in a way, is an example. He still hasn't clicked at Williams. You keep hearing that some of them don't like him, they don't think he's the best tester in the world and so on."

Briatore and Benetton in 1995
Herbert knows exactly how that feels. He looks back on 1995 with a certain degree of resentment.:

"I'm a bit bitter towards Flavio because he said there would be a two car test team at Benetton and there never was. It was unfair that he expected me to turn up on Sunday and win a race.

"I used to waste days going to tests. At first, Michael did two days and I did two, then it was three and one and sometimes I was down to half a day. I thing the longest test I did all year was two days on Silverstone South. Doing a race distance. Great. I felt like Taki Inoue or someone. I think that's how it looked sometimes too, such as Hungary when the gap was two and a half seconds. I mean, that's just bloody ridiculous. In the end, it wore me down. In future, I'll get it on paper."

The dawning realisation takes a while. You mean to say that here was a Grand Prix driver with a leading team who didn't have something as fundamental written into a contract? It says a lot about Herbert's nature. Some would call it naivety - but to Johnny, Briatore said it so he took it at face value. Still, what were his agents, the International Management Group (IMG) up to?

"Yeah, well, maybe you might say it could have been put in through their experience. I wouldn't have thought of it but maybe they could and should have done. I relied on Flavio to do it, which was a silly move."

I remember trying to interview Herbert's father Bob when Johnny had won the British Grand Prix in 1995. He was so choked he could barely get the words out. Wife Becky and mother Jane were struggling too, all the people who had shared his ups and downs. Herbert himself was the coolest person in the place.

"But he backed in," someone said, and the same expression was repeated when Johnny triumphed again at Monza. It was palpable nonsense, even if Schumacher and Hill weren't on the track at the time. Herbert started driving when he was 10 and when someone achieves success after all he's been through, they fully deserve it. The shame was that the caustic atmosphere at Benetton took the edge off.

"They wouldn't have got the constructors' championship if I hadn't been there," Herbert points out. "There was talk of replacing me and the wins were a bit like sticking one up the team. And up Flavio.

"They weren't expecting me to win a race. Flavio and Michael used to do their jumping around bit and all the cuddling. Flavio was there when I came down off the podium at Silverstone but you could just see in his face it wasn't honest at all.

"Then I won Monza. It was the long walk from the parc fermé down to the podium. He pulled a sort of little sneer. He went onto the podium, took his trophy and went. That was it. He didn't even say a word. But I was chuffed. I'd set the second quickest lap anyway and you don't expect a golfer who hasn't hit a ball to go out and win the Masters."

And then, of course, there was the business of the telemetry, with Herbert not permitted access to Schumacher's data.

"I think that only started because in Brazil I qualified fourth, just behind him. We went straight to Argentina and it all started there. He came up to me and said: 'This thing of the data. There's probably things that you do special which you don't want me to see, and there's things I do that I don't want you to see, so has Ross [Brawn] spoken to you about changing it?

"I understand it from Michael's point of view. I think what he does is how a racing driver needs to be - very selfish. He doesn't give the other guy a chance to get close to him.

"But Flavio should have told him it was a team effort. My engineer would sometimes call up his data and I'd be looking at it out of the corner of my eye while he was on the other side of the desk. Pathetic really. But he never left the room. Even if you stayed there till 9.30 at night he'd still be there. Later on in the season I could see the data but by then I wasn't a threat."

When his relationship with Lotus turned sour, Herbert had looked to Benetton as his saviour, which made it all the more soul-destroying.

"The good thing was that Becky came to all the races that year because she had a feeling it was all going to be hard. She was someone I could actually have a one-to-one with, because sadly I couldn't discuss it with anyone else in the team."

No-one?

"No. Ross tried to be very good at the races but that's always too late. It's not at the races that championships are won. They're won away, testing. It means confidence.

Better times with Sauber
"After Benetton I thought maybe I should get out. I'd lost all motivation for Formula 1," [Johnny continued]. "But last year, with Heinz, when I'd been worried I might be into the same situation again, Peter Sauber did everything in such a fair way. I could accept that I did get beaten, sure, but my confidence came back and I was getting better and better. At the end of the year I was giving him a very tough run. This year, the ball is starting to roll again."

You can see it in his driving, too. The Sauber is always knocking on the door of the top half dozen in qualifying, Nicola Larini was nowhere near him and Herbert’s motivation is fully charged.

"The whole thing can change so damned quick. We could suddenly come good this year or next, I could start winning grands prix and then suddenly I’m back in the frame. Nigel [Mansell] was 39 when he won the championship so, at 33, there’s still time for me to get a chance.

"Benetton won’t necessarily be with me for the rest of my life. I’m getting much more respect this year but I’m the same guy. I haven’t changed. Heinz-Harald leaving has put me in a good position. They are focusing very much on me, I feel relaxed, happier and very confident.

"That’s what you’ve got to say about Damon. He’s done very well mentally. He has been able to cope with it all. From my side I always knew that if I could get back to a situation where I was wanted in the team I could do better than I did at Benetton, even if I wasn’t in as ultimately competitive a car. Which is what I feel has happened."

Herbert, then, is happy with life. He’s managing his own affairs now for the first time, with some wheeling and dealing from Rod Vickery, who looks after Eddie Irvine.

"I’ve learned you don’t need a manager, you need a guy who does the contract. IMG have done it in the past, so I know how it works. I’ve got an ex-IMG guy in Monaco who does my accounts. They do Gianni Morbidelli as well, Emanuele Pirro, and a few other guys. So I’ve got no fees for the contract, I take the money and that’s it, but it’s taken me 33 years to get there!" He laughs: "If I’d had my head now when I first started, I’d have been fine. I’d probably have been a millionaire!"

A point to prove?
You often wonder why a driver keeps going when the motivation is at the kind of low ebb Herbert’s was in 1994-’95. He had a wife and two young girls. But, he says, thoughts of security didn’t take over.

"I hadn’t earned massively. It was okay in Japan but I was never in the situation and I’m probably not quite in it yet. Give me another year and then maybe, but that’s not the issue. It’s all about being happy in what you do. It was the same with Becky at home because she was frustrated for me with the Benetton situation. I couldn’t do anything. People look at you and think you’re a total wally.

"But the same love of the sport which kept me racing after the accident is what keeps you going. Now the rollercoaster is on the way up, I still I’ve got a point to prove and I’m going to prove it."

As one of the most decent, uncomplicated blokes in the paddock, you can’t help but hope he manages it. And anyone who saw his magnificent pre-Brands talent knows, only too well, it would make a supremely fitting pinnacle to his career.


"Herbert goes with the flow"

A hand the size of a baseball catcher's mitt clamps on to your shoulder as Sauber's sporting director Max Welti goes into his deep laugh. 'I suppose you are looking for Little British Bastard, yes?'

Laughter is something you automatically associate with Johnny Herbert, and something he took to Sauber in 1996, where team members fondly coined that sobriquet. Laughter, and the ability to communicate on a completely natural level with anyone who comes within his orbit.

Damon Hill proved that nice guys can win the big prize, but for every Hill there are 10 other 'good blokes' who don't make it. And, for whatever reason, Herbert's face doesn't seem to fit in some Formula 1 circles.

Throughout his years with Lotus as he rebuilt the career shattered initially by Gregor Foitek and then freshly dismantled in 1989 by Flavio Briatore, Herbert still clung to the coming-man tag, but his season with Benetton in 1995 as Michael Schumacher's team-mate all but crushed that image. Herbert won two races and only engine failure in Adelaide prevented him from finishing third in the World Championship, but he risks slipping into a pigeon hole as a man who had his chance and blew it by coming up short. The truth is rather less fanciful, as Eddie Irvine will no doubt testify.

During negotiations with Peter Sauber, Herbert and manager Andrew Hampel were desperate to ensure that this year he got a fair crack of the whip, all too aware that with 'Frentzen's team' he might find himself vaulting from frying pan to fire. That was when the psychological wounds were really apparent, but as the two parties gelled, so that initial uncertainty evaporated and was replaced by mutual trust.

'The second half of the year I felt I was much more competitive with Heinz-Harald, and it would have been a very strong year for me I think if it had been like that all the way through,' Herbert says, assessing the season. 'But you need time to work into a new environment, so I'm not complaining.'

It says much for Herbert that he was brave enough to grab the chance of joining Schumacher in 1995, rather than shying away from the comparison. But once he had shown his mettle by qualifying only half a second away in Brazil, and then run the German to within a 1000th on the Friday in Argentina, he had sounded sufficient alarm bells. Only idiots really believed that the subsequent gaps between them - a gaping three seconds just the following day - were the natural order of things.

The relationship with Briatore was almost non-existent, and insiders suggested that Flav was less than wholly pleased when Herbert's second place in Spain saved his bacon, and even less so when victory at Silverstone fulfilled a performance clause in his contract which prevented him being replaced.

'The whole problem in 1995 wasn't just Flavio, to be fair,' said Johnny. 'It was the car. The B195 was just horrible. Ask Gerhard Berger!'

Berger hated everything about the B195 on the occasions upon which he tested it before the B196 was ready. 'I just couldn't drive the B195,' he admitted. 'I hated everything about it, it was just so tricky.' Because it was Gerhard saying it this time, people took notice.

'The only meaningful test that I had with Benetton was at Silverstone just before the British GP,' Herbert mused. 'And that was on the South Circuit! That wasn't really a lot of use. Michael tested on the GP circuit, and I had to do my running on the small track…'

Herbert is still the most competitive team mate Schumacher has had, and the only partner who has won races. And if you examine how his lap times stack up with other recognised 'quick' drivers, such as Mika Häkkinen in their happy-go-lucky Lotus days or Frentzen at Sauber, there are underlying indications of a driver who can turn it on to a very high level.

His victory at Silverstone in '95 was precisely what he had to do for Benetton in a difficult car, once Schumacher was out. At Monza that same year he was catching Alesi before the Ferrari broke, after driving a deliberately conservative race initially to preserve his equipment. And, in case it escaped notice, he passed Alesi for the lead on the opening lap at Spa. Not, one might comfortably conclude, an easy task at the best of times…


From F1 Racing again..


Here's the rub. Nobody actually dislikes Johnny Herbert. They just don't notice him. He's outgoing, happy-go-lucky. Doesn't complain. Possesses a natural charm in PR activities. Perhaps most surprisingly, he comes across brilliantly on screen. Whereas Hill and Coulthard frequently appear wooden and tense, Herbert exudes unexpected charisma. But he has long gone out of fashion. Even before his fine-judged victory at the Nürburgring, few rated him. Maybe they still don't. Most just see a journeyman who's been around too long; a likeable little guy with a hard-luck story.

Assessing the situation brutally, he simply hasn't performed as Rubens Barrichello's team-mate at Stewart-Ford. The revitalised Brazilian's remarkable drives have turned him into a star, while Herbert has been the man in the shadow, failing to grasp the nettle. The most competitive thing he's done, cynics say, is to remind Ford of the cost of buying him out of his 2000 contract. JYS must be glad they didn't.

Everyone knows the story of the cheeky chappy who was to motor racing in the late 1980s what Michael Schumacher- the man who psychologically destroyed Herbert at Benetton in 1995 (his best and worst year) - was in the early '90s: a rocket-powered coming man who was going all the way. Until Herbert was introduced to the Armco at Brands Hatch by F3000 rival Gregor Foitek in August 1988, nothing was going to stop him. He'd won the British F3 title and his first F3000 race; had blown the doors off Thierry Boutsen and half the F1 field while testing a turbocharged Benetton-Ford at Brands Hatch; had similarly embarrassed the reigning world champion, Nelson Piquet, when testing for Lotus at Monza.

Frank Williams was at Brands Hatch that day in '88, ostensibly prepared to talk contracts. The future seemed bright, but Herbert was lucky to leave the circuit with his feet still attached. The first marshal to reach his Reynard insisted everything was okay, then threw up when he copped Herbert's mangled feet.

Likewise, everyone knows the story of the remarkable recovery, the loyal struggle at Lotus and that demoralising 1995 season.

Nobody knows any of it better than Herbert himself. Others dismiss it all with cynical that-was-then-but-this-is-now comments; he's had to live with it all the way. He's just as tired of it.

"Maybe I'm not as quick as I would have been if I hadn't had the shunt," he suggests, and you both know that the "maybe" is redundant. "But you can come up with all the excuses in the world - I'm not interested in that. It was more than 10 years ago, and you can't keep dwelling on things like that. It happened. It's done. Maybe I would have been world champion every single year without it, who knows? Maybe I wouldn't. But so far this season I have done things in a way where I believed in myself, and I've got much, much better."



So why has it been so disappointing, Nürburgring apart? When he was signed to partner Barrichello everyone expected him to push Rubens from Day One. When it didn't happen, all the old criticisms arose again. They seemed justified. Herbert just didn't cut the mustard. Sure, it was Barrichello's team: it's hard to envisage a situation in which the Brazilian might have walked back to the pit after his dashboard fell off or his rear wing collapsed and found the place empty, as happened to Herbert on Saturday morning at Hockenheim. But Johnny's been driving a good car with, by conservative estimation, 820 bhp, and at times he's appeared to lack conviction.

"Rubens was part of the family here," he says, "and I'm still finding my way to an extent. I'm also the kind of driver who needs that family atmosphere - who doesn't? Maybe I should be hard-headed, but that isn't my style. But things are much better here than the results might suggest, and I think I've coped with the various problems quite well. I am happy here," - he might have added now - "and that's very important."

Herbert must produce the goods alongside a very hard-headed Eddie Irvine in 2000, or his F1 career will be over. Long before he took the chequered flag at the Nürburgring, Johnny wasn't thinking of any 12-month countdown to retirement, and he doesn't care if the paddock wonders what he's still doing in F1.

"I know what a lot of people are thinking, but most of that is based on what happened in the first part of the year. I know what it's like if you aren't flavour of the month. Some people have never forgiven me since Peter Collins [Herbert's Benetton and Lotus mentor] once said he thought that I had similar talent to Jim Clark at the same point in our careers. They thought that was sacrilegious. But you learn to filter out who and what doesn't count. I believe that I can still do it, and I don't need to rely on the opinion of others for that. If I lose that belief, okay, I think I can be honest enough to admit to myself that I'm no longer up to it. In some ways it was difficult, at the beginning of the year, not to think that. For a long time I never, ever got any sort of rhythm."

Jordan's joint managing director, Trevor Foster, a long-time Herbert supporter, has a theory about that:

"I wonder sometimes whether Johnny is just putting a brave face on things. You've really got to be able to left-foot brake in one of these modern F 1 cars, and I'm not sure if he can handle that. There's a certain predetermined speed on the straights and a certain level of grip in corners, so the only place really to make up time is under braking. Like Damon [Hill] with Heinz-Harald [Frentzen], Johnny has often been faster than Rubens in the quick corners, so it's not a balls thing - he hasn't got the braking sussed."

Herbert concurs- to an extent:

"Yeah, I had a lot of problems with that. The car was on a knife-edge, and I just couldn't be aggressive with it. But as soon as I got the new differential in Austria, that all went. It totally changed the behaviour of the car. Suddenly I was right there with Rubens."

So much so that he out-qualified Barrichello for the first time this season at the Nürburgring. But it was only by one place and qualifying normally goes Barrichello - somehow, practice promise seems to evaporate for Herbert come Saturday afternoon. When Jackie Stewart was chasing David Coulthard earlier this season, he was displeased to be asked why he would want a driver who was slower than Mika Hakkinen, when he already had one who was as quick as Hakkinen- sometimes quicker - during their spell together at Lotus. Back in 1991, the qualifying score was Herbert five, Hakkinen three. In 1992, it was Herbert nine, Hakkinen seven.

In Austria, Hungary, Belgium and Italy this season, he was on course to outqualify Barrichello until minor problems set him back; and when he's had a trouble-free spell in races, their lap times have been similar. But it hasn't been enough to change the perception of him as a guy who should have quit already, because he's rarely been running in a top position when the problems have arisen. This year the situation has been compounded by the fact that where you qualify is generally where you tend to race. At Monza, he got into the lm 26s in the race sooner than Barrichello, but they were separated by eight places after Herbert's poor qualifying performance. It's as if the promise is there, but he loses the key and can't pick the lock in time. And it's this that people will remember, not his Nürburgring achievement.

"That's not nice, but it doesn't hurt me," he insists. "It's not as if Rubens is banging in the times and I'm just doing the odd one here and there. If anything, it's been the other way round lately. It's like the Salo thing, with stories that Ford were chasing him; why let it upset you? That's always been the F1 way. It was just a case of making sure the right people knew what I wanted and what I didn't want, and keeping calm."

This year Herbert has done what he always does in difficult circumstances. He's kept his lip zipped and tried to work his way through:

"In the past, qualifying has never been a problem for me, so I just focused on trying to sort the car so ! had something I could get by the scruff of the neck."

He has another, more fundamental, problem. Back in 1992, Keke Rosberg summarised it perfectly:

"Johnny needs to look more as if he is really focused, and to get more angry when things don't go right. He's too much 'Sunny Boy', always seen laughing and joking. We know what he is like underneath, but a lot of people don't. They mistake him for a guy with the attitude that says he doesn't care, when he does."

Spitting the dummy has never been Herbert's style. Once, he was calm and cheerful after losing an F3 race at Thruxton, but subsequent info came to light from others that he had been punted off by Bertrand Gachot. For Johnny, it was already history, not worth mentioning. That easygoing nature may be why he hasn't fulfilled the potential he showed in those days, but some styles suit some drivers and not others.

"Sure, it's all how you are perceived in this game," he concedes without bitterness. "I do things my way. I just mention that things shouldn't happen. There's no point in shouting at people, because that upsets them. And early on [in '99] I wasn't really in a position to say much, given that my performances in qualifying weren't good enough. I didn't feel I had the right to criticise people in the team under those circumstances, even though they might have been in the wrong too."

Thus far his litany of'99 disappointment embraces malfunctioning dampers and suspension breakages, countless electrical or hydraulic problems, and three rear wing failures which won't have done much for any driver's peace of mind, no matter how glibly he shrugged them off as an occupational hazard.



It's always been particularly hard to know what Herbert is really thinking. Even when he's hurting, there's usually a flippant response. But the perception of JP Herbert as 'Sunny Boy' has always amused his father Bob. He remembers the Bobby Shaftoe blond firebrand from their karting days, and the piece of tape they stuck over the hole in the side of their caravan after Johnny threw a screwdriver at him.

"That image is the one thing I'd change, looking back," Herbert says, unexpectedly. "I'm absolutely sure that I was moodier and harder before the crash. Trevor [Foster] says I was a miserable git in the old days at Jordan. My personality did change. I had to laugh my problems off, and that stuck with me."

So why does he believe that he deserves another chance in Fl? He answers as if mentally crossing things off a list.

"Well, I've still got the desire; I think I have a lot to offer Jaguar; my feedback is good and I believe I've now proved that I'm still quick."

He has straightforward requirements of Jaguar:

"As a driver you need the feeling that you are wanted in a team, and the ability to do what you want in testing. Then you need the support, physically, emotionally and psychologically. And you need a relationship, from the people at the top right the way down."

But there have already been none-too-veiled indications that Dr Wolfgang Reitzle, boss of Jaguar, wants Frentzen to partner Irvine from 2001, to help increase the brand's presence in Germany. If that hurts Herbert you wouldn't know it, any more than you'd be able to detect whether a new fire of determination has been ignited within him.

You ask the question, and Johnny starts to answer. "Well," he begins, stretching the vowel in the diffident way he has when he isn't sure quite how to phrase what he is going to say next. He's never been particularly good at that. In the old days he didn't have to be, of course, he just let his work on the track speak for him.

Ultimately, it might all come down to this: Johnny Herbert may simply be too nice a bloke to succeed in F1. He doesn't lie, try to mislead or conceal. Perhaps he's too open. It's time he rediscovered his old artistry. In the past, there was never any question about it. But now it's come down to how deep he is prepared to dig, to save not only his dignity, but his F1 career.

The Nürburgring provided a clue.


From Autosport...

It's a cold winter's day at Silverstone, 1988. Johnny Herbert's career is on the line. Tension hangs as thick as the fog which envelops the deserted airfield. Not four months have elapsed since the Formula 3000 shunt at Brands Hatch which shattered the golden boy of British racing's legs. Nobody says it out loud, but everyone is asking the same question as mechanics lower him into the Benetton: can he still do it?

He cruises round on an installation lap, then drives three more. All of them slow. Worried glances are exchanged on the pit wall. The car tours into the pit lane and is pushed back into the garage. Its occupant stays slumped inside. Team boss Peter Collins, whose neck is also on the block, leans into the cockpit.

"What's the matter?" he asks. His blood chills with the reply.

"I don't think I can do it…"

"Will you give it another try?" implores Collins. Subdued, his driver agrees to have another a go.

Bang, bang, bang, in come the lap times. The invalid hasn't just beaten the bogey lap time. He's demolished it. The faces are brighter when the car rolls to a halt for a second occasion. "Got yer!" says Herbert, with a triumphant beam.

A decade on from that test, he is about to celebrate the 10th anniversary of his Grand Prix debut in Brazil. The intervening years have been strewn with tears and laughter. He has driven for six teams, been sacked twice by the same one, amassed 83 points and scored two victories. The first of those, an emotional success in front of his home crowd, remains the highlight. Of 130 races, though, he treasures the very first as the most important: Rio '89.

"I know I was nowhere near fit to race," he reflects. "When I got the sack mid-season, I went away and cried. Now I look back without regret because I know that the whole experience saved me. If I hadn't come back when I did, and got that result, I would never have had a GP career. I could have said, 'Give me two years and I'll be fit', but nobody would have taken a gamble on me then."

That he ever raced in Rio at all, never mind finished a courageous fourth in 106-degree heat, was something of a miracle. His F3000 shunt had inflicted appalling leg injuries.

"I'll always remember the surgeon coming out of the operating theatre in the early hours of the morning and talking to his parents," recalls Trevor Foster, his engineer at Jordan at the time of the accident. "He said, 'He'll be OK, but his sporting days are over.'"

Their son refused to believe it. Crucially, so did Collins. He finally persuaded Luciano Benetton to gamble and take up the option signed before the Essex hotshoe's accident. Incredibly, the driver was back in a racing car before he could even walk. Pale and gaunt, his appearance didn't inspire confidence. Twice Benetton issued deadlines for him to prove his fitness. Twice he met them.

His debut still burns vividly in his memory.

"If I drove normally, my clutch foot would really hurt for about three laps, then I'd get used to it," he says. "There was a bump on the back straight, and I found that if I relaxed my left leg, left it loose and let it bounce around in the cockpit, it would smack against the side of the car when I hit the bump. It would absolutely kill me, but somehow it took me through the pain barrier and numbed the leg for the rest of that run. I hit the bump deliberately on the installation lap before the race and it worked a treat."

What nobody realised at the time, least of all he himself, was that Rio's sweeping layout masked the full extent of his injuries. The next race at Imola quickly betrayed his inability to brake heavily.

"My initial reaction after Brazil was, 'This is easy'," he says. "I really believed that. I thought I could only get better and better, and that everything was made for me. I went to the next round overconfident and struggled like hell."

He scraped into the race 23rd, but, despite a subsequent fifth place finish at Phoenix in the US GP, the inevitable finally happened when he arrived for Canada. For the first time since Benetton had purchased Toleman five years earlier one of its cars failed to qualify. The axe finally fell, and it was almost a relief.

"I used to lie awake at night and think to myself that one day the pain would go away," he admits. "But all the time I continued to race and test it actually just got worse. When I was sacked, I had a sob, but I knew deep in my mind that it was for the best. I probably should have called time myself earlier. Upsetting though it was, I realise now that coming back when I did, and finishing fourth in Rio, saved my career. Without that, I wouldn't be in F1 today."

Having showcased his speed and bravery, his next quest was to prove his fitness. Not even a key role in a victory at the world's toughest race, the Le Mans 24 Hours, silenced the doubters. The man who assembled Mazda's squad for its historic '91 triumph, David Kennedy, admits he encountered tough resistance when he included the F1 refugee in his line-up.

"Mr Ohashi, the big boss, was asking me, 'Are you sure he's OK?'," he recalls. "I was saying, 'Yeah, yeah, of course', but if you saw him in the morning – when it took Johnny half an hour to get out of bed, and another half-hour before he could walk – you would have thought I was crazy. But whenever he was in the car, in the tests or for the race, he flew."



After partnering Volker Weidler and Bertrand Gachot to the first win a Japanese manufacturer had achieved in the French classic, Herbert collapsed on the car out of sheer exhaustion.

"By then his eyes were sunk right back in his head, and he looked as if a feather would knock him over," says Kennedy. "Mental and physical fatigue are your biggest enemies at that race. I asked the girls in the team to take Johnny away from the pits whenever he was out of the car, just to get his mind off things. He just thought he was really popular!"

Ironically, the Briton is popular, but he reveals that the crash changed not only his shoe size and his route to the top, but also his character.

"Before the shunt I had a miserable image because in 3000 I was shy and didn't talk to anybody," he says. "After it, I laughed because it was my way of dealing with things, my way of hiding the pain. The more it hurt, the louder I laughed – it wouldn't have made for very good PR if I had grimaced!

"At times, that laughter's been a handicap because people didn't think I was serious about the job, didn't think I wanted things badly enough. That all came from the accident. When I was struggling to walk, I tried to laugh things off. It was no use hiding in a hole and crying. "So when you see me smiling in interviews, even when things have gone wrong, remember that inside I might be ripping myself apart."

Eleven years on from the crash, a glance at his war wounds quickly reveals his ankles won't win any beauty contests. He suspected that much from the moment the first marshal on the scene reassured him that he was OK, then walked to the front of the car and promptly vomited. His feet have all the mobility of an oil tanker, but to compensate he learned to heel and toe by rocking his knees rather than his ankles. The advent of semi-automatic gearboxes, activated by paddles on the steering wheel rather than a clutch, was like a dream come true.

[fines]

Nice articles!

Just a thought: Maybe he should've taken a break after Brazil in '89 to let his ankles heal properly! He'd proved his worth and there's every chance the team would've waited for him - benefit of hindsight really, I know, but maybe...

And another thing: "Backing in on wins" or "inheriting wins" is just bollocks - a win is a win, no matter how many faster guys have dropped by the wayside. They didn't finish, and didn't win, that's all.

[William Dale Jr]

I think it was Richard Petty who said that, "The most anyone can do is to put themselves into a position to win and let circumstances dictate the outcome." Well that's what Johnny did. Just because there were guys who were in front of him but didn't finish the race doesn't mean he didn't deserve to win any of the races he won. You still need to be good enough to get into a position to take advantage if any of the guys ahead falter.

As for Johnny not deserving any of his wins, Herbert wasn't there because he brought a vault full of cash and little else, he wasn't a complete wally going five-seconds-a-lap slower than everyone else, he was a bloody good driver. He would've been a bloody great driver if it hadn't been for his feet-destroying shunt. In addition to all the things said above, IIRC, Johnny is unable to run - his ankles won't allow it - and he had to change his walking style to compensate for the lack of ankle movement too. For someone who has had to go through what has gone through and still be able to be as quick as any of his teammates I find incredible.


BTW, spot the Herbert fan

[Peter Morley]

The Benetton B195 was easily the best car in 1995, virtually as fast as the Williams, and reliable as a Swiss watch. Why Herbert performed so poorly (relatively that is) remains a mystery. Lack of confidence?

Not having access to the telemetry from your team mates car explains a lot.
When you get in and go quicker than Schumacher on your first time in the car, guarantees a lack of help at setting it up - of course all your data is available to help your team mate go even faster, which exaggerates the problem.

And if Schumacher's setup is as different as we are told (very sensitive front end) then it is also going to be difficult for someone else to drive a car designed for him (chances are this is a story put about to cover the fact that his car is quicker than his team mates).

Since he was beaten by Johnny, Schumi has been very careful about his team mates - making sure it is very clear to them that they aren't allowed to go quicker than him (which might suggest he doesn't believe he is the fastest guy out there).

[Peter Morley]

And another thing: "Backing in on wins" or "inheriting wins" is just bollocks - a win is a win, no matter how many faster guys have dropped by the wayside. They didn't finish, and didn't win, that's all.

Alain Prost made a career out of hanging around for people to drop out and then coming first, and no one suggests he wasn't a great F1 driver.

Of course there are some cases where drivers have lucked into wins, but most the time they win by crossing the line first - the greatest exception being when Senna won in Monaco in 84.........

[Haddock]

Its hard to know isn't it. Was Herbert simply one of many drivers who looked really special in the junior formulae but didn't quite have what it took at the highest level (Magnussen springs to mind) or did his accident at Brands Hatch destroy his career.

Nigel Roebuck was one of many I've heard say that no driver is ever quite the same after a really serious leg injury. Schumacher might be the exception but it is my understanding that Herbert's injuries at Brands were considerably worse (something which I would say was self evident from the length of time he took to even begin to recover - a year on in a Tyrrell in 89 he still couldn't relly walk properly

[SeanValen]

Johnny's crash effected his driving more then crashes of Hakkinen/Schumacher for example, broken feet, I say big effect on his driving. If it was a broken leg, would of been better for long term healing, but smashed feet, totally different.

[David M. Kane]

Given the extent of his injuries, it is a slight miracle he did as well as he did. I agree, perhaps, he should have let the healing process take place a little longer, but hindsight is hindsight.

I remember when he won the British GP, Flavio appeared to be actually pissed off, probably had to pay him a bonus, etc.

I hope he runs the Indy 500 this since I just moved to Indy and that he
wins the damn thing. If he does, I for one will be very, very happy for
him.

[Peter Morley]

I remember when he won the British GP, Flavio appeared to be actually pissed off, probably had to pay him a bonus, etc.

Not as pissed off as Jackie Stewart looked when he won the German GP - must have taken a lot of explaining to Ford about why the other driver was worth so much money (must have been a convincing explanation though they kept him for long enough for no obvious reason).

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


Not as pissed off as Jackie Stewart looked when he won the German GP - must have taken a lot of explaining to Ford about why the other driver was worth so much money (must have been a convincing explanation though they kept him for long enough for no obvious reason).

Puzzling statement - Herbert never won a German GP, perhaps you point at he 1999 European GP.
But then - Rubens outclassed Johnny completely that season (14-2 in qualifying), and at the end of the season even his lucky win at the 'ring didn't bring Johnny more points than Barrichello.
Though he took advantage of it in an excellent way, Herbert was very lucky with his pit-strategy, he was behind Barrichello until that crucial part of the race.
And about that other driver costing so much money - well, next season Barrichello drove for Ferrari and I think that deal was already done at the time of the 1999 European GP....

[Peter Morley]

Puzzling statement - Herbert never won a German GP, perhaps you point at he 1999 European GP.

Sorry for that but one tends to think of GPs at the Nurburgring as being German GPs of course it was the European GP - held in Germany.

Though he took advantage of it in an excellent way, Herbert was very lucky with his pit-strategy, he was behind Barrichello until that crucial part of the race.

And that strategy wasn't available to anyone else?
As someone else said the person who crosses the line first wins the race.
Of course all his fans would have liked to see Johnny start from pole and disappear into the distance and win all the races (as we were used to before he reached F1 - except he didn't need to be on pole, back of the grid at the FFord festival with a time penalty didn't stop him) but given his position as 2nd driver (possibly due to him not making a lot of fuss) he did amazingly to win.

And about that other driver costing so much money - well, next season Barrichello drove for Ferrari and I think that deal was already done at the time of the 1999 European GP....

All year they only ever talked about Barrichello, he was definitely the no. 1 driver (& presumably favoured/treated as such) - the point was that it was very embarassing for them when he failed to score their only victory.

[oldtimer]

I was in no way gainsaying Herbert's wins, or what he brought to the sport. A win is a win as Michael says. I was looking at Herbert's performances in the light of whether or not he was championship material had it not been for the accident. The manner of his wins do not give a positive indication of latent championship material, IMO.

A champion catches the eye by doing the unexpected. In the case of motor racing, it is the team, mechanics, engineers and team owners who know the sport who get to be the first to be surprised at what a champion does in their car. They are the first to walk away shaking their heads in acknowledgement of something special. An illustration in my mind is the 1960 Belgian GP at Spa. Phil Hill was giving very valiant chase to Jack Brabham in the superior Cooper. Jenks reported that the Ferrari team held out a pit signal to Hill. It simply said, "Bravo".

I expect a champion to have authority in what he does, whether it is in setting up his car, the way he looks after the machinery, the way he handles the car, the way he handles his mechanics and engineers, the way he handles below par performance in the team. Everybodyknows, and even a disrespectful team manager has to acknowledge, that they are dealing with someone with special skills.

I don't think Johnny left that sort of impression of special in his F1 career. He brought his own brand of 'special', and I more than respect him for that, but I didn't see signs of 'WDC special'.

As for Schumacher getting special treatment, it seems to me that he earns it. When the team give him something he asks for, he makes the car go faster. That's what champions do. You bet they listen to him. It's up to his teammates to catch the same ears if they want to show they are champion material.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Peter Morley

All year they only ever talked about Barrichello, he was definitely the no. 1 driver (& presumably favoured/treated as such) - the point was that it was very embarassing for them when he failed to score their only victory.

Don't think so - if only because it was Herbert who stayed at Jaguar.
Do you have any proof?
Roger Horton had quite a different opinion in his Atlas article "Reflections on Nurburgring" (Atlas vol.5, # 39) :
"This time Herbert's victory will be warmly appreciated by a team management desperate for just such a result. There was, of course, much speculation earlier in the season that Ford were casting their net (and dollars) around for two new drivers to replace both the departing Rubens Barrichello and the incumbent Herbert. But Herbert has kept his seat and this win will have done him no harm with the team's new owners so conscious of the value of a winning image."
Sounds more convincing to me.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I got this text from an old Aurosport a while back, for another thread but never got around to posting it. Sorry about the bad grammer/missing words. I OCRed it and never got around to proof reading it!

Jet-setting Johnny's
Suprise

Many of our guests had come a long way, but none made more of an effort to get to the Grosvenor House than Johnny Herbert.

On Sunday afternoon, Johnny was due to compete in the unique F1 sprint event at Bologna. Both he and team boss Peter Collins were keen to get back for the Awards, but it was very difficult; they would have to get from Bologna to Milan, hop on a plane, and charge from Heathrow to central London.

Various avenues were explored, but it was found that they could get to Heathrow no earlier than 9.30pm ~ after dinner, and exactly the time the preserrtations started!

Plans went ahead nevertheless. We were quite keen for him to get there on time, although Johnny didn't know that a prize was in the offing. Any slip up along the way would have seen Herbert miss his slot. Fingers were crossed...

After Johnny had finished second to Gabriele Tarquirri's Fondmetal in the Bologna run-off, the Lotus duo made it to Milan Airport without trouble, but things started badly when the plane was over 20 minutes late taking off for London. For a while it looked like they might be even later on arrival, but AuTospoRT had planned ahead! Air Traffic Control proved to be sympathetic to this particular Alitalia flight, and it did not join the queue...

The plane arrived bang on time after all; Herbert and Collins charged out of the airport and into our waiting car. They made it to Park Lane with time to spare, but with the awards ceremony already well underway. A quick change into their dinner jackets and dicky bows, and they strolled serenely down the staircase. Much relief in the Autosport camp!

By now Johnny had an inkling that all this effort meant that he might be called upon to collect a prize, but was he was not expecting the Sportsman Award.

It resulted from an incident at a Fuji JS-PC race back in July, when Takao Wada's Nissan suffered a puncture at 20Omph, and rolled spectacularly at the end of the main straight.

The crash was replayed to the Grosvenor audience with one of the most spectacular pieces of in-car video yet

seen. The view from Wada's windscrem changed from Turn 1 to blue sky in a matter of seconds...

At first, Wada was trapped in the upturned, burning wreckage. Herbert wa the only driver to stop. He'd only run once since his '88 injuries - a~ t track at Spa! - but instinct^ he ran across the gravel trap, and reached the car just as the shell-shocked driver clambered free.

The race was not stopped, there m no pace car, and by the time Johnny resumed, his Mazda had lost two the road. R was an effort of true sportsmanship.

'Hopefully someone else would do the same thing,' said a modest Johnny. The point was, no one did...

[Ruairidh]

You know whatever the eventual "verdict" on Johnny's talent is - the postings above have re-confirmed to me that he is a brave and talented guy who has the "stuff" and good character to do the "right" thing in difficult circumstances and maybe that is worth as much as any WDC.

[Rediscoveryx]

By now Johnny had an inkling that all this effort meant that he might be called upon to collect a prize, but was he was not expecting the Sportsman Award.

It resulted from an incident at a Fuji JS-PC race back in July, when Takao Wada's Nissan suffered a puncture at 20Omph, and rolled spectacularly at the end of the main straight.

The crash was replayed to the Grosvenor audience with one of the most spectacular pieces of in-car video yet

seen. The view from Wada's windscrem changed from Turn 1 to blue sky in a matter of seconds...

At first, Wada was trapped in the upturned, burning wreckage. Herbert wa the only driver to stop. He'd only run once since his '88 injuries - a~ t track at Spa! - but instinct^ he ran across the gravel trap, and reached the car just as the shell-shocked driver clambered free.

The race was not stopped, there m no pace car, and by the time Johnny resumed, his Mazda had lost two the road. R was an effort of true sportsmanship.

'Hopefully someone else would do the same thing,' said a modest Johnny. The point was, no one did...

I have vague memories of seeing this incident. Shades of David Purley...

[masterhit]

Johnny said that his jokey behaviour prior to that was a mask. But then, Piquet was a practical joker yet still won titles. So I don't know - maybe his talent would have been enough. it's one of the great unanswered questions. His accident was very very bad and there was still debris coming out of his leg a year later. It left a physical and mental affect. I myself suffered head injuries in a road accident once and nearly died. Some people may be able to shake that off, but I am much more wary whan crossing a road these days and am generally more circumspect. I even changed my circle of friends. It can affect your personality. Martin Brundle says that he wasn't the same after his and I believe him. I also note that Michael, though still committed and fast, drives differently these days. Michaels accident was of course less damaging to his legs than poor Johnny. Anyway, going off topic again..

Does anyone have information - was Johnny more serious about his work before that crash? Or make that - was he less likely to play jokes back then?

[diego]

I was at Fuji and witnessed the Wada accident.

Herbert's behavior was incredible -- one of those few instances in life where you see someone do what is truly the right thing. The race should have been stopped but wasn't.

[Wolf]

Well, I have to disagree on win being a win... They may carry the same points, but noone can honestly say the what happened in Indy GP this year is same as finishing in front of three Ferraris with ~25% more BHP (choose between MC and D GP of '61)... I would even differentiate between inheriting a win and inheriting a win. One is pressuring the guy in front with 35 BHP more until he bursts his tyres, or keeping the pace with one's brother hoping he'll fall off the road...

And speaking of one of examples, Moss bounced off from broken legs and back, to race in 6 weeks, as if nothing happened...

[Peter Morley]

Do you have any proof?

Just the look on JYS's face during the final stages of the race.
Most people would have been at least as excited as Paul Stoddart was at the end of the Aussie GP at the thought of winning their 1st GP.
JYS looked more like an English cricket fan near the end of just about any cricket match!
Of course JYS has won so many GPs that it might have been less of a highlight in his life.

[masterhit]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


Just the look on JYS's face during the final stages of the race.
Most people would have been at least as excited as Paul Stoddart was at the end of the Aussie GP at the thought of winning their 1st GP.
JYS looked more like an English cricket fan near the end of just about any cricket match!
Of course JYS has won so many GPs that it might have been less of a highlight in his life.

He may just have been paralysed with fear that it would all go wrong at the last minute. But I'm just saying that to show the other side kinda thing.

[Rediscoveryx]

Well, Paul Stewart was in tears of joy, and Paul was the official team manager, not JYS...

[masterhit]

A lot of people say Herbert was unlucky. and he was. But he is very very lucky to be alive. I speak as someone who nearly died after being thrown 30 feet into the air after a car hit my bike when I was 11. I am deaf in my right ear and my inner ear balance is screwed but I am alive and that's great. It affected my confidence too. But ultimately I am glad to still be amongst the living and I would say that the way I was acting I probably needed a warning like that.

None of Senna's titles mean a damn to his friends and family - all they think is that he is no longer around.

Ironically younger people who don't appreciate the history of F1 beyond this year don't appreciate Senna because he isn't around. Johnny, like Senna has won in all forms of motorsport and those in the know are aware how good he was/is/would have been. Johnny was spared, has his life to live and that is something you can't put a price on.