94 replies to this topic

[JForce]

More rumours that Ferrari will respond to the new qualifying format with a qualifying special. Smaller, lighter. etc.

Question: Don't you have to nominate a chassis on Friday for qualifying and the race?

Wouldn't that mean you couldn't run two completely different chassis types...

[wawawa]

Originally posted by JForce
Question: Don't you have to nominate a chassis on Friday for qualifying and the race?

I don't think so - drivers have only 1 chassis for practice, but they can jump into their spares for qualifying or the race (before the start) if they want to.

[dan2k]

Ferrari or any other team must be stopped if they plan to do this, because it will increase spending to a new level.
If Schumacher gets a 'qualifying special' car next year, and Montoya doesnt, then I cant say for sure he is the quicker driver when he gets pole.
Damn Ferrari, I hope its not boring next year with domination in both qualifying and races, at least they didnt dominate everything this year.

[dgsg]

to dan2k; speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? if you can't stand heat, then get out of the fire! If your going to run with the big dogs, you better lead. I could go on but it would become even more boring. The point is; EVERYBODY HAS TO PICK UP THE GAME! Ferrair this & Ferrair that, for Christ's sake, somebody get their s--t together and present a challange! If not, I will be happy to see 6x WDC MS.
Dan

[Daniel Lester]

As per usual Ferrari are 1 step ahead of the game if the rumours are true. The FIA would be well advised to ban it before it becomes the norm. The cars should be the same spec all weekend.

"then I cant say for sure he is the quicker driver when he gets pole."

You can't say that for sure anyway, everything about a Williams is far removed from a Ferrari making decent comaparisons hard.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by dgsg
to dan2k; speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? if you can't stand heat, then get out of the fire! If your going to run with the big dogs, you better lead. I could go on but it would become even more boring. The point is; EVERYBODY HAS TO PICK UP THE GAME! Ferrair this & Ferrair that, for Christ's sake, somebody get their s--t together and present a challange! If not, I will be happy to see 6x WDC MS.
Dan

If current trends continue the grid will consist of two cars, but then again you seem pretty easy to please.

enjoy ;)

[dan2k]

Originally posted by dgsg
to dan2k; speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? if you can't stand heat, then get out of the fire! If your going to run with the big dogs, you better lead. I could go on but it would become even more boring. The point is; EVERYBODY HAS TO PICK UP THE GAME! Ferrair this & Ferrair that, for Christ's sake, somebody get their s--t together and present a challange! If not, I will be happy to see 6x WDC MS.
Dan

Ferrari didnt get their **** together for 20 plus years, until they won the championship in year 2000.
The money game is a losing battle for every team except Ferrari.
Cost must be kept at a resonable level, for F1 anyway.
In the very beginings it was a few gentlemens that want to race for the fun of it, but today its all about profit.
You make less profit if you have to spend more, so I'm sure teams will always want to keep cost down.

A rule designed to generate a bit more excitement seems to have given Ferrari and Michael Schumacher another advantage, its a catchup game.
Ferrari isnt the first team to have come up with this idea.
McLaren had already warned us about this issue, if something wasnt sorted out, most team will be forced to build 2 different chasis if they want to be compeditive.
Ferrari are doing it, do you expect Williams, McLaren and other teams to just sit and watch?
They will have to spend more cash to do it also.
So no, I am not moaning, but worried.

[wawawa]

Well, Williams had 7 poles and 1 win this year, so I would suggest that they need to upgrade their race-day performance more than their qualifying performance. If I was Williams, I wouldn't altogether mind seeing Ferrari divert some of their focus onto qualifying. As it is, it will be a bit more of a lottery in 2003 - we shall see - but, at any rate, Williams' (and McLaren's) priority must be Sunday, not Saturday.

[tinman]

I dont think that what Ferrari will be doing is something new. Most teams use lighter components anyway during qual. Take the Williams' lighter exhaust pipes for example. Using smaller hence lighter sidepod is only an oppurtunity that will arise because of the new regulations.

[calibre001]

Max and Bernie addressed this concern in the latest F1 Magazine (e.g. Cars with blanked off radiators, etc).

The general thrust of what they said was that if you presented a a special qualifying car for scruiteneering on the Friday, , the FIA would force you to race that car on the Sunday.

In other words, they won't let such a concept get passed scruiteneering

[tinman]

Originally posted by Evan Shift
Max and Bernie addressed this concern in the latest F1 Magazine (e.g. Cars with blanked off radiators, etc).

The general thrust of what they said was that if you presented a a special qualifying car for scruiteneering on the Friday, , the FIA would force you to race that car on the Sunday.

In other words, they won't let such a concept get passed scruiteneering

But when teams run thinner brake pads, thinner exhausts pipes, etc. did the FIA force them to use those qualifying components? I think not.

[calibre001]

Maybe not, but that is very different to "building a new car for qualifying".

Agree that there will be some components that are varried, but my point is that it appears that you will have to run substantially the same car

[Arrow]

haha hilarious.

Nicely blowing up in the fias faces.

[vogtsophob]

Originally posted by Evan Shift
Maybe not, but that is very different to "building a new car for qualifying".

Agree that there will be some components that are varried, but my point is that it appears that you will have to run substantially the same car

The FIA simpy must define what substantially the same cas means, or with other wordes
what exactly is is allowed and what is not. But it looks as if there is no such definition,
or have I missed something

[HP]

What's the fuss about?

Aren't qualifiying engines, etc. part of the game since years? If they didn't ban those earlier, why getting uptight about special qualifiying stuff now?

[Henri Greuter]

Well, it might be avoided to some extend.

Make it mandatory that a driver starts in the car he qualified with and in case he changes from car ffor whatever reason, being forced to give up his position and go to the back of the field behind all those who do start in the car they qualified. Happens at Indy already.

Having posted this suggestion: of course that there will be numerous manners to get around that rule again too and even more to be discovered too.


Henri Greuter

[dynamite7]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Well, it might be avoided to some extend.

Make it mandatory that a driver starts in the car he qualified with and in case he changes from car ffor whatever reason, being forced to give up his position and go to the back of the field behind all those who do start in the car they qualified. Happens at Indy already.

Having posted this suggestion: of course that there will be numerous manners to get around that rule again too and even more to be discovered too.


Henri Greuter

Surely they can't complain about "needing" to change their brakes and engines after just 1 lap instead of 12. So that is an excellent idea.

[Slick]

Has the one engine rule been dropped, because I thought this would rule out a qualifying car because changing to a race car would effectively mean using a different engine.

[BRG]

All this needs is a bit of firm rule making and enforcement - something at which the FIA are invariably crap. When cars complete their qualifying run, they go into scrutineering for a full check of weight, dimensions and adherence to the regulations, and then into parc ferme And they stay there until they are released to go out to the grid for the start of the race. No warm-up, no "all-nighters" completely changing the car, just one lap round to the gird, then the installation lap then the race. If you go to the pits, or do anything more than the usual on-the-grid fettling, or want to use the T-car, you go to the back of the grid. Otherwise, you start the race on the same engine, same radiators, same tyres, same everything as in qualification.

Easy!


well, it looks easy from this armchair...

[TAB666]

Originally posted by BRG
All this needs is a bit of firm rule making and enforcement - something at which the FIA are invariably crap. When cars complete their qualifying run, they go into scrutineering for a full check of weight, dimensions and adherence to the regulations, and then into parc ferme And they stay there until they are released to go out to the grid for the start of the race. No warm-up, no "all-nighters" completely changing the car, just one lap round to the gird, then the installation lap then the race. If you go to the pits, or do anything more than the usual on-the-grid fettling, or want to use the T-car, you go to the back of the grid. Otherwise, you start the race on the same engine, same radiators, same tyres, same everything as in qualification.

Easy!


well, it looks easy from this armchair...

Its easy if its the same weather for qual and race. If it rains in qual or race you have to change the setup. Qual cars arent that bad, same goes for the qual tires michelin used for some races .. especialy Monaco

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by Slick
Has the one engine rule been dropped, because I thought this would rule out a qualifying car because changing to a race car would effectively mean using a different engine.

that's for 2004

[flyboy]

BRG, Excellent response! I agree, this is a no-brainer. If the FIA doesn't mandate this, they deserve the blame for another season of meaningless Sunday afternoons.

[random]

In a lot of recent threads I've noticed a large misunderstand of the FIA's powers. All these proposed changes to the regulations are good and fine, but the FIA has no right to simply mandate any of them. They are the enforcer of the rules, not the maker of the rules.

The FIA are a party to a contract with the teams where the rights of each are specifically spelled out. Any non-safety related change to the regulations has to be put to a vote and the teams have to agree. The teams have known full well about this for some time, yet in their recent meeting to discuss new rules, nothing was done about it.

Obviously the teams don't care about it, and it's probably too late now as development is certainly going forward. I fully expect to see Q-cars at the first race of the season.

[tifosi]

random

your wasting your time on this one. Forget the FIA there are actually quite a few people on this BB that think Max alone makes all rules for Formula One. Of course these are the same no-nothings that think that Max and/or Bernie cancelled Spa, when it was the teams that unananomously agreed not to go to Belgium.

[MarkWRX]

If this is true, I hope that the FIA makes the new qualifier car subject to the crash safety tests like the racing chassis are.

Mark

[fuzzybunny]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
If this is true, I hope that the FIA makes the new qualifier car subject to the crash safety tests like the racing chassis are.

Mark

AFAIK, all cars to take part in the event have to pass thursday scrute, they don't have to be able to last a race distance, but they have to still substantively be a standard, legal F1 car.

Gains can come from reducing tolerances, expected work-life etc, not by flaunting the rules.

[random]

When a substantial change to a chassis is made, the FIA can demand the chassis be re-crash tested. But I don't believe there is anything in the current rules to prohibit a team submitting both a race and Q chassis for crash testing.

I think as long as both chassis are legal, it will be well within the rules for a team to have both it's drivers qualify in the same Q-car, then race with their individual race cars.

Consider that on many occasions a driver has started a race in a car he didn't qualify. Most commonly it's a driver starting in a T-car after a problem on the grid. But occasionally, a driver will qualify in his team-mates car if his is out of service, then start the race in a totally different car. And sometimes they're not even of the same design, they're totally different chassis types or even different years models.

If legally, you can qualify for an event in an F2003, but race in the F2002, I don't see how any reading of the current regulations could outlaw Q-cars. It's doing the same thing for different reasons.

Max Mosley has said something about the cars needing to be functionally the same, but I've never seen any mention of that text in the rules, and it certainly hasn't been enforced in the past.

[fuzzybunny]

Yes Random, exactly right.

What I was trying to say is that a qual car will have to pass all the usual tests/checks and conform to the rules but apart from that teams could do what they liked. (within reason)

a thought:
If its so easy to do this why have we not seen it before?
Would it not have been useful to teams to take the gamble on the current unpassable tracks?

[tifosi]

I was reading and interview with Max and Bernie that basically said if the car presented for qualifying is substantially different than the one presented for the race, i.e. no radiators, extremely light brake discs, ets, the FIA could require the car used in qualifying to be raced. Haha this would be great, that would end any of this.

[pRy]

Newey alreaddy addressed such an idea immediately after the new regulation came out, so Ferrari are not exactly "ahead of the game".

[da Silva]

They shouldn´t have said anything. Ferrari could have spent months and alot of cash for something useless. "Sorry guys, it´s not legal"
Good for F1 if Ferrari aint that superior.
Malaysia and Brazil were good races in -02. We don´t need radical changes to F1. Make the top teams about equal and then there will be good racing and different winners.
There are alot of fast drivers out there and I believe 100% that MS would have a real hard time if
his competitors had the same conditions as himself.
I´ve already mentioned Montoya to be the fastest and most talented guy out there today but even Raikkonen have huge potencial.
Look at his Q-time at Spa, he was 0.4 seconds off MS time with that MacLaren, he was driving that car to it´s maximum. Great to watch

Back to this thing about the special Q-car.
If they change the rules for the one engine rule/ weekend just to keep costs down, they can´t accept different parts as an way to come around the engine rule thing.
IMO, the car should be the same in qualifing and in the race.
It´s kind of silly that Williams uses special headers just for qualifing. If all teams uses special things just for qualifing then there is no gain in time, just increasing costs. And now, who could afford the most of these special things? Not the mid or back end teams.
Let them scrutineer the car before qualifing and 'seal' it to the race.

[pRy]

Ferrari are more professional than that. They wouldn't make something without checking it was legal, not when it's something as big as a special car. Small parts sure, but not a different chassis.

[random]

Originally posted by tifosi
I was reading and interview with Max and Bernie that basically said if the car presented for qualifying is substantially different than the one presented for the race, i.e. no radiators, extremely light brake discs, ets, the FIA could require the car used in qualifying to be raced. Haha this would be great, that would end any of this.

I read this too, but the current rules say nothing about a car needing to be substantially similar.

Ferrari could certainly push back on this, and on appeal would probably win. The precedence of this practice being allowed is what could hurt the FIA. They've never mandated the cars be substantially similar in the past, in fact Ferrari and other teams have run different model years of car on the same weekend, and probably will this year as well. You can't get much more substantially different than that.

[AD]

No real need to ban anything. The new regulations for '04 should address any worries here, and naturally create new worries

[tifosi]

Originally posted by random

I read this too, but the current rules say nothing about a car needing to be substantially similar.

Ferrari could certainly push back on this, and on appeal would probably win. The precedence of this practice being allowed is what could hurt the FIA. They've never mandated the cars be substantially similar in the past, in fact Ferrari and other teams have run different model years of car on the same weekend, and probably will this year as well. You can't get much more substantially different than that.

Your cortrect about the rules to normal people like us, however the FIA's interpretation can be just about anything as we have seen in th epast. Yes different cars have been run on race weekends, however they were still presented for scrutinizing. As for an appeal, well that would takle place long after the race weekend is over so whether Ferrari (or anyone else, remember it was McClaren that suggested the use of special cars) would win or not wouldn't really matter.

The funny thing is, how substantially different could you make it? The car still has to meet all technical regulations. All the teams already run substantially lighter brakes, Williams has different exhaasut and headers that wouldn't be able to race, so in actuallity I'm sure they are already doing everything they can during qualifying.

[Garagiste]

If its so easy to do this why have we not seen it before?

Because we haven't had one lap qualifying before. Teams have used special bits, as other have pointed out, but they had to last a whole qualifying hour, (or 12 laps, anyway) so couldn't be THAT substantially different. Now we are talking about three laps they are talking about no cooling system etc, as the car only has to last a fraction of the time.

[Henri Greuter]

Fun part about all of this is that as far as I remember, apart from add some excitement, this qualification sysem was also supposed to save some costs.
Seems to me that it will work the other way around.
But will the difference specifications in Q-trim vs Race trim ever be as big as in '82 with the underweigth cosworth powered cars or in the highlight of the turbo years?

I can't help but getting more reservations about this q-system the longer I think about it.

Henri Greuter

[QdfV]

Originally posted by Garagiste

Because we haven't had one lap qualifying before. Teams have used special bits, as other have pointed out, but they had to last a whole qualifying hour, (or 12 laps, anyway) so couldn't be THAT substantially different. Now we are talking about three laps they are talking about no cooling system etc, as the car only has to last a fraction of the time.

Still, they could have gone for 1 fast lap, have the car possibly break down and use a T-Car for the remaining session. Something like that.
Actually, with 1 lap qualifying the issue is not that you need a car that only has to do one (okay, 3) laps, but that you need to have a car that WILL complete one lap (3), it has to be reliable, because there is one chance only. Starting from the back rows one or two times will probably cost you more than you could ever make by starting from 1 or 2 places down but still in top 6 a few more times.
So what is faster a ultra-reliable-1-lap-qualifying-car, or a car for the old 12-lap-so-you-can-take-a-risk-and-we-still-have-the-T-car-car? What would give more points?

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by JForce
More rumours that Ferrari will respond to the new qualifying format with a qualifying special. Smaller, lighter. etc.

Question: Don't you have to nominate a chassis on Friday for qualifying and the race?

Wouldn't that mean you couldn't run two completely different chassis types...

Ferrari cannot use different car (whose chassis is "Smaller, lighter. etc"). Nobody can. They may use car which successfully passed entry inspection only. And it will be only one type of chassis.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
Fun part about all of this is that as far as I remember, apart from add some excitement, this qualification sysem was also supposed to save some costs.

I dont believe lower costs were ever part of the thinking for the changes to qualification, it was purely to try and increase the spectacle and excitement.

I personally dont see them using a special car that is substantially different.

Several people have said that it only needs to last 3 laps, well thats not really true. It would have to run substantially more laps than 3, because it would need to be setup correctly. Thats what happens during practise, and in previous seasons it would be furthur tweaked during qualifying. It would leave to much to chance if they used one format of the car during practise and substantially changed it for the qualification.

[Pioneer]

Originally posted by Tomecek

Ferrari cannot use different car (whose chassis is "Smaller, lighter. etc"). Nobody can. They may use car which successfully passed entry inspection only. And it will be only one type of chassis.

Wrong. Here are the relevant Sporting Regulations.

86) A competitor may use several cars for practice and the race provided that :
a) he has no more than four cars available for use at any one time:
b) he uses no more than two cars for free practice sessions on each of the two practice days held under
Article 115a) and b);
c) he uses no more than three cars during qualifying practice;
d) they are all of the same make and were entered in the Championship by the same competitor,
e) they have been scrutineered in accordance with these Sporting Regulations,
f) each car carries its driver's race number.

The ONLY restriction regarding scrutineering is that they must all be of the same make.
and in section 21 we have

The make of an engine or chassis is the name attributed to it by its constructor.

So if Ferrari shows up with 10 Ferrari cars at scrutineering that is fine... as long as they don't bring any McLarens.

There is no rule saying it has to be the same Chassis. Example: Brazil 2002. Ferrari scrutineered, qualified, and raced 2 different cars.

[fuzzybunny]

My understanding, please correct me...

[list=1]

[*]The qual car has to fall within the technical regulations.
[*]The teams best design at a car that falls within the tech regs and can last a full race distance is what they are using as the "race" car.
[*]Unless strength or reliability is an issue, they are unlikely to have a substantially different chassis design or suspension layout that is "faster" than the race config.
[*]They could save on weight and sacrifice reliability in some components but they would not sacrifice chassis rigidity etc.

The only major savings I can see would be in the expendables (brake pads etc), cooling system, and engine.

[*]Of these, the only area that would change under the new regs would be the engine which could be made to finer tolerances. I assume cooling would be similar to the 4-lap system (3 laps followed by a cooling "rest period")
[/list=1]

Naturally I'm wrong, so please explain it to me!

[random]

Certainly a lot of lightweight bits and bobs would be installed for qualifying, as they always have been. But I think the real concern is a chassis without any radiator inlets or much in the way of cooling ducts of any sort.

I would think this could be mostly done with alternative body work, but I'm no aerodynamicist. Perhaps Ferrari has wind tunneled a design that would require a wholly dissimilar chassis, but provides a tremendous aero gain. Thus the issue, because there is no rule preventing such use of two totally dissimilar but equally legal chassis.

For a one lap run, I gather any cooling system packed with dry ice would probably do fine. And dry ice has been allowed these many past years.

[fuzzybunny]

For a one lap run, I gather any cooling system packed with dry ice would probably do fine.

It might...
but this is my query:

'one lap' qualifying
You do out lap, hot lap, in lap, pack up and go home.

'four lap' qualifying
You do out lap, hot lap, in lap, park it and wait for your next session, during which the engine cools down. (how MUCH it cools is, I think the only essential difference)

Also, I suppose it would no longer matter if your poor engine was cooked after 3 laps, since it would not run again...

[random]

Autosport has a new article suggesting BMW is quite concerned about qualifying motors. They seem to think a q-motor that needs only cover 30km will be too dissimilar to the race motor. And this may require them to have a separate development program for it.

Even if the FIA somehow manages to prevent qualifying chassis, I don't see how they can enforce a ban on q-motors prior to the planned introduction of the 1-engine rule in 2004.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by random

Even if the FIA somehow manages to prevent qualifying chassis, I don't see how they can enforce a ban on q-motors prior to the planned introduction of the 1-engine rule in 2004.

Have qualifying start about 15 minutes after practice ends. If they can change the engine that quickly then they deserve to be on pole.
Seriously though, I think that a lot of 'what-if' scenarios are flying around about these special cars that will never happen. What are you gonna do practice with a real car then somehow guess how the setting will transalte to the other car? Yeah I can see that working out. And on top of that you can still only have 3 'complete' cars at one time even if there are 2 or 3 other chassis in the back, you can't convert the 'real; cars used in practice to the qualifying cars during the time between practice and qualifying. Basically what the FIA can do is say yeah bring all the chassis you want but the three cars you start out with in the morning you will use that day, if you wreck and have to rebuild, you can use that car the next day.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Pioneer
86) A competitor may use several cars for practice and the race provided that :
a) he has no more than four cars available for use at any one time:

Originally posted by Pioneer
So if Ferrari shows up with 10 Ferrari cars at scrutineering that is fine... as long as they don't bring any McLarens.

I agree there is no rule restricting using of different chassis. But you established yourself to be wrong. They cannot bring 10 Ferrari cars. With this I really doubt they can use some chassis for qualifing only. So it is not restricted, it is impossible. Unless you would race qaulifing chassis.

[Pioneer]

They most certainly CAN bring 10 cars... the rule only says that only 4 can be available at any one time. The 4 which are "available" are designated as such by the teams to the stewards, but they can withdraw cars and add new ones from the trailer at will as long as they have been scrutinized.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Pioneer
They most certainly CAN bring 10 cars... the rule only says that only 4 can be available at any one time. The 4 which are "available" are designated as such by the teams to the stewards, but they can withdraw cars and add new ones from the trailer at will as long as they have been scrutinized.

Cars MUST be presented for scrutineering 3 days before the race, (4 days for Monaco), between 1000 and 1600. If a car is substantially damaged and rebuilt the FIA MAY require the car to undergo scrutineering again. Try to practyice with a normal car and then slip in a special car for qualifying only and just see how long it will take to scrutinize. Remember the FIA can require COMPLETE disassembly of the car. How much time is there between the final practice and qualifying, hardly enough time to do this car swapping. You can not just pull another one out of the trailer anytime you want. So explain to us just how this super car will be used. Sure they can still do all the little things they always have, but to claim there gonna remove a race car after P2 and replace it with a special qualifying car, I'd like to know just how anyone will do that since, as Isaid the FIA can scrutineer till midnight if they want. And again you'd then be doing a total guess on the actual set-up which could really screw you up in qualifying, much more than you'd gain.

[Pioneer]

Duh... hello? You present your special car for scrutineering on Thursday along with your race cars. Theres no limit on the number of cars you can present, nor do they have to be the same car. As long as they all are legal cars.