23 replies to this topic

[skinnylizard]

Following is a comment from Jacque Villenueve

"You know one of the reasons this sport is suffering is because there are too many inexperienced youngsters filling F1 seats," he said.
First of all they don't have the ability to race Formula One cars and then they are nothing more than corporate mouthpieces for the manufacturers and sponsors ... at a time when the sport is crying out for characters."
Part of the problem is the (governing body) FIA giving them superlicences.
Ten years ago ... you had to win a Formula 3 championship, then F3000, then F1. Now it's all about getting rich young kids with sponsorship."

What do you guys think of this comment..sounds true to a certain extent....Do you fellas think Sato, Massa,Yoong, would have been better off being in the junior series for a little while or at least testing to hone their skills to become more competetive racers...or is it fine just to put them in the heat?
I can see why JV would think this way i mean the guy put in 10,000Kms of testing in a winter season to acclimatise to the car etc ....and he had a crackin debut year by any standards..

As for sponsorship comment...well thats a little unfair because tht has been going on for a long time in F-1..cept the drivers seem to have gotten younger over the past 3-4 seasons....(is this a result of the electronisation of F-1 thus making it easier to drive for people with less experience ?)

Kinda like b-ball where Jordan said he was glad he went to college and honed his game etc etc before makin the switch....at the same time you have a Kobe Bryant who has done well skipping college and going pro..but he isnt a Jordan....(of course no one is) but the point being could he have been better if he had spent time in college b-ball ?....(just an analogy i know its not the same thing)

just a few thoughts that poppped up.
enjoy.
xxx
www.pi-media.com
ww.eranstudio.com

[tifosi]

Yeah, I can understand JVs point. He's getting tired of watching the Kimi's and Massa's of the world disappear in the distance.

[917k]

''Ten years ago ... you had to win a Formula 3 championship, then F3000, then F1. Now it's all about getting rich young kids with sponsorship."

Using JV's logic,the FIA should have never granted HIM a superlicense![seeing that he didn't win either of the mentioned championships ]

[taran]

In a matter of speaking, JV has a point of course. Yes, young drivers should gain experience in junior series. Not so much in driving a race car but in racing a race car. And why have F3-F2-F1 (or FRenault, FFord, FOpel, FBMW, F3, F3000) if drivers are not expected to attend the racing ladder. The FIA is making a mockery of its own regulations.

By the time they then reach F1, they will have calmed down, perhaps broken a few bones in heavy accidents or seen some crashes and realized that racing is dangerous. Perhaps they will also have learnt how to win by using their brains instead of merely a lead foot and good coaching.

(Young) drivers certainly can use some more character although I believe Sato and especially Massa are certainly showing some style. Heidfeld continues to be so bland, even Mercedes forgot he existed.

Oh, by the way skinnylizard, Sato IS a F3 champion.
And while Villeneuve may not have won F3 or F3000 championships, he did win the Indy 500 and CART titles. Those should be impressive enough credentials for anyone....

[BRG]

I have been unhappy for some time – certainly since Button’s arrival in F1 – about inexperienced and unqualified young drivers jumping the queue and getting F1 seats ahead of people with better credentials.

So I agree with Jacques to some extent. F1 is not meant to be a learning formula – young drivers should have learnt driving skills, technical feedback and set-up skills and of course race-craft in the lower formulas. And they should have won races and championships on the way to show that they deserved promotion to the elite of F1.

On the other hand, F1 has always had “rich kids with sponsorship” – the Yoong phenomenon is nothing new, and it is one of main reasons why the superlicence requirement was introduced. Looking back, there is a long tradition of guys who have bought a drive. But they were not all bad - after all, Niki Lauda started that way, and he did quite well!

I find the sight of Jacques moving from the young rebel into the elder statesman most entertaining. Perhaps he will soon exchange his grungy skateboarder wardrobe for formal jackets, shirts and ties. Maybe Max will give him his tailor’s number?

[Dudley]

Ten years ago ... you had to win a Formula 3 championship, then F3000, then F1.

He's gotta be joking.

Here's some of the cream of 1992...

Giovanni Amati
1986 • Italian F3 in a Prema Racing and Forti Dallara 386 VW.
1987 • F3000, 1 start, 3 DNQs in a BS Automotive Lola T87/50 Cosworth.
1988 • F3000, 4 starts, 4 DNQs in a Colt Lola T88/50 Cosworth.
1989 • Japanese F3000.
1990 • F3000, 2 starts, 8 DNQs in a Roni Motorsports Reynard 90D Cosworth and Lola T89/50 Cosworth, and a Cobra Reynard 90D Mugen.
1991 • F3000, 7 starts, 3 DNQs in a GJ Motorsports Reynard 91D Cosworth.
• 30 laps in a one-off F1 test in a Benetton 191.

Qualified for 14 of 32 races in F3000 over 4 years. didn't shine in Italian F3 either.

--

Paul Belmondo
1987 • F3000, 18th overall, 2 points in a GBDA Lola T87/50 Cosworth.
• World Sportscar Championship, 1 start at Le Mans in a Brun Porsche 962C with Trolle and De Thoisy.
1988 • F3000, 3 DNQs in a Lola Motorsports Lola T88/50 Cosworth.
• World Sportscar Championship, 1 start at Le Mans in a Courage C22LM Porsche with Migault and Katayama.
1989 • F3000 in a CDM Reynard 89D Cosworth.
• Le Mans 24hrs, retired in an Obermaier/Primagaz Porsche 962C with Yver and Lässig.
1990 • F3000, =22nd overall, 3 DNQs, 1 point in a Superpower Reynard 90D Mugen.
1991 • F3000, 1 DNQ in an Apomatox Reynard 91D Cosworth.
• Competed in the Paris-Dakar Rally.

2 points in 5 years in F3000, didn't even start an open wheel race in the year before F1. But Paul Belmondo didn't buy his way in F1 according to Jaxs.

--

Andrea Chisea

1988 • F3000, =20th overall, 1 point, 2 DNQs in a Cobra Lola T87/50 and Reynard 88D
1989 • F3000, 6th overall, 15 points, 1 win in a Roni Reynard 89D Cosworth.
1990 • F3000, 7th overall, 18 points in a Paul Stewart Racing Lola T90/50 Mugen.
1991 • F3000, 6 entries, 1 DNQ in an Apomatox Reynard.

1 win in 4 years, less than 10 points a year.

Yes, he was chosen on merit

--

Jan Lammers returned for March after TEN YEARS away. But according to Jaxs that was entirely on merit.

--

Perry McCarthy
1986 • British F3, =12th overall, 11 points in a Madgwick Reynard 863 Volkswagen.
• Competed in French F3.
1987 • British F3, 8th overall, 22 points in a Madgwick Reynard 873 Volkswagen/Alfa Romeo.
1988 • F3000, 4 entries, 1 DNQ in a GA Motorsports Lola T88/50 Cosworth, and a works Ralt RT22 Judd.
1989 • F3000, 3 entries, 1 DNQ in an RCR Lola T89/50 Cosworth.
• British F3000, =8th overall, 6 points in a GA Motorsports Lola T88/50 Cosworth.
1990 • IMSA, =49th overall, 4 points in a Spice SE90P Buick/Chevrolet with various drivers.
• World Sportscar Championship, 1 start in a Richard Lloyd Porsche 962C GTi with Reuter.
• Won the Exxon Driver Award, the JRI International Award and was Rookie of the Year.
1991 • IMSA, =24th overall, 24 points in a works and Hotchkis Racing Spice SE90P Buick/Pontiac/Chevrolet.
• Tested the Footwork F1 car.
1992 • IMSA, 1 start at Sebring in a Tom Milner Racing Chevrolet GTP

I like Perry, but don't tell me 7 races in F3000 3 years earlier is what JV was thinking of.

--

No JV, no-one could get into F1 by buying 10 years ago.

[Garagiste]

Heh, very good Dudley.
Even without counting McCarthy's "DNQ Moda" though, there were 8 more seats to go around in 92, so the point is still valid. With fewer drives around, the likelyhood that talent will get squeezed out by cash increases.

[Daniel Lester]

Didn't Senna and Brundle jump straight from F3 to F1, yes they were 1 and 2 in the title, but if you have the talent then theres no reason why drivers can't make any jump they like. Massa, Sato, Kimi, Button have all scored points and haven't faired too badly, Webber also got points but he fits Jacques view of an F1 driver (Sato won the British F3 title and Jenson was 3rd the year before). Only Massa and Kimi came from "nowhere" and Kimi proved he could handle MS, JPM, DC etc. Massa appeared to be a little lost at times with numerous spins, so prehaps he lacked a year or two of experience and Button struggles if the car is struggling (i.e Early 01 against Fisi).

They won't all be F1 champions but the quality of the drivers has improved out of sight since the mid 90's or maybe the cars are simply easier to drive.

For their relative experience I think most drivers matched JV's standards this year.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Dudley


He's gotta be joking.

Here's some of the cream of 1992...

Giovanni Amati...

Who he? I think you mean Giovanna Amati, who was a fairly competent driver and one of the few women ever to drive an F1 car in anger! She not only had a Benetton test, but tried three times to qualify the absolutely awful Brabham BT60B-Judd; not her fault - it was a dog! Eric van der Poele did no better, while Damon Hill got it onto a grid twice before the team folded.

[CONOSUR]

Originally posted by BRG
...So I agree with Jacques to some extent. F1 is not meant to be a learning formula – young drivers should have learnt driving skills, technical feedback and set-up skills and of course race-craft in the lower formulas. And they should have won races and championships on the way to show that they deserved promotion to the elite of F1.

On the other hand, F1 has always had “rich kids with sponsorship” – the Yoong phenomenon is nothing new, and it is one of main reasons why the superlicence requirement was introduced. Looking back, there is a long tradition of guys who have bought a drive. But they were not all bad - after all, Niki Lauda started that way, and he did quite well!

I find the sight of Jacques moving from the young rebel into the elder statesman most entertaining. Perhaps he will soon exchange his grungy skateboarder wardrobe for formal jackets, shirts and ties. Maybe Max will give him his tailor’s number?

[SeanValen]

"Those who say money is the root of all evil, don't have it." qoate Boiler Room.

However, with the tv ratings and advertising being what it is now compared to the 80s for example, f1 has had to change along with the world, I don't know what it is, but I just don't think we'll ever each the peak of the drivers we've had in the past, as good as drivers is what were looking out for, next Senna, next Schumacher, next Clark etc needle in a haystack.

Thus the sponsorship now days, could more likely prevent us from seeing a future star, the tracks and driver input with cars don't help either, new drivers have been boxed into a corner more.

[917k]

''And while Villeneuve may not have won F3 or F3000 championships, he did win the Indy 500 and CART titles. Those should be impressive enough credentials for anyone.... ''


Neither have really prepared drivers for F1.In fact JV said this himself,earlier in the year.The American ''feeder'' route[CART and IRL]are not the way to prepare for F1.

[Dudley]

Who he? I think you mean Giovanna Amati, who was a fairly competent driver and one of the few women ever to drive an F1 car in anger! She not only had a Benetton test, but tried three times to qualify the absolutely awful Brabham BT60B-Judd; not her fault - it was a dog! Eric van der Poele did no better, while Damon Hill got it onto a grid twice before the team folded.

Her record suggests otherwise as far as competence goes. Didn't score a point in 4 years in F3000.

Poele got the car on the grid. More importantly, Poele, considered an F1 reject himself was futher ahead of Amati usually than MICHAEL SCHUMACHER is ahead of Yoong, let alone Webber.

[skinnylizard]

guys i think we are going a tad overboard here...i wasnt talking about WINNING championships merely stating if there was a need for some talent to be groomed over a season or so specifically so they can shine in F-1. i didnt mentin Kimi coz to me he seems like some kind of a prodigy....
but i do want to raise the question about the ease of driving a car today? there are no slicks, no manual gear boxes etc etc....
it is a different era therefore it is easier to drive a car then it was a decade ago. so i dont see the point of comparing to people of yore..
i didnt know Sato is a previous champ. thanx for pointing that out but he didnt do very well did he..i think he showed real grit in Japan but 1/16 isnt quite right is it? Massa too showed some real flair..bt whats the point of squandering opp in F-1 crashing out all the time.... i wonder if he had stuck to testing or something or a year in a junior formulae and sorted his style out...he might have finished more races and actually been IN this year.
JV didnt win any junior championships..but i dont think Winning a championship means anything..i was just talking about doing junior formulae + f-1 testing to sort out kinks, learn about oneself and competition to move on to cutting edge competition. example JPM did it with Williams and he has turned out pretty well..though he still had set up issues....
xxx
www.pi-media.com
www.eranstudio.com

[HSJ]

Originally posted by BRG
I have been unhappy for some time – certainly since Button’s arrival in F1 – about inexperienced and unqualified young drivers jumping the queue and getting F1 seats ahead of people with better credentials.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. IMO it is not about some formal qualification that should coun't. In the world in general, not just racing, IMO it should be about ability. Some drivers need more time to acquire it than others, just like you are probably aware that some kids are so smart, that to force them to go through all of the grades at school is just keeping them back, demotivating them and making them bored for no good reason. Even more so at universities, it is quite silly to keep the better ones from graduating early etc.

But back to racing. I see no reason why e.g. every driver should be forced to do F3K, for example, or even F3. It should come down to ability, and if they have what it takes, then they should have the possibility to make full use of their ability, even in F1. To me it is great waste if a driver like Senna for example would be held back in his early prime years and out of F1. Let's say a driver like Senna had his best years between ages 25 and 35. Then if FIA rules dictated that every driver must do F3K and cannot be in F1 before age 28 (just an example, adjust the numbers as you like, the point is still the same) then we lose 3 years of Senna just because of stupid rules.

Of course you may then say that F3K and other series would gain, both in respect and their level would rise etc. But IMO F1 should always be the one series that is put first. If you have what it takes you should be in F1, instead of the Yoongs or even Irvines of the world.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by SeanValen


However, with the tv ratings and advertising being what it is now compared to the 80s for example, f1 has had to change along with the world, I don't know what it is, but I just don't think we'll ever each the peak of the drivers we've had in the past, as good as drivers is what were looking out for, next Senna, next Schumacher, next Clark etc needle in a haystack.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but if I have understood correctly you seem to argue that we can't expect to see another Senna level, or Clark level, or even Schu level driver? Well if that is your claim then IMO you're just plain wrong. There's nothing stopping the younger drivers, even ones who have yet to born, from becoming as good as those three, and even better. In fact as standards in all sports rise, and at the same time more and more youngsters get a chance to try out a sport (in racing's case karting), that means that we can expect the younger ones to surpass the older generations, not just match them.

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by HSJ


I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but if I have understood correctly you seem to argue that we can't expect to see another Senna level, or Clark level, or even Schu level driver? Well if that is your claim then IMO you're just plain wrong. There's nothing stopping the younger drivers, even ones who have yet to born, from becoming as good as those three, and even better. In fact as standards in all sports rise, and at the same time more and more youngsters get a chance to try out a sport (in racing's case karting), that means that we can expect the younger ones to surpass the older generations, not just match them.

Agreed, I was in a different state of mind since my last post, the path to the answer not always clear of traffic every day.

[The Fazz]

Funny.

None of the World Champions from the last 2 decades or so had "F3000 Champion" on their CV.

To a certain extent, agree with Jacques on moving too quickly into the premier league of openwheelers. Initially, drivers tend to bring their junior formulae tactics into F1. The biggest complaint about Senna, was that he basically drove like a kid in F3 during his early years in F1. The problem was that he was also bloody fast.

Compare with a seasoned F3000 campaigner - well these guys like DC, Rubinho etc are decent on the track, and pretty fast in their own rights... but not as ruthless - even mature during their early F1 days.

So the question is whether F1 should adopt young & raw talent (bloody fast & fearless types); or opt for mature but quick drivers (the safe and balanced types)?

Jacques seems to fit within the first group. So I think his biggest gripe is with the soulless ones who spoil the market for him with their corporate compliance.

[flyer72]

The point Jax is making is quite clear - F1 is somehow getting in a very strange mode compared to what it was before. Button, Kimi, Massa, Sato, Bernoldi etc. are all quite promising drivers but they are also pretty young and in some cases very inexperienced.

I can't understand some of the teams - look at Jordan - they signed Sato (which wasn't all that bad) probably due to the Honda link, but did he deserve a Jordan? IMO no. I think if Honda or Jordan would be interested in getting him to drive a Jordan they should let him "develop" at a team like Minardi for a year or two. I can understand why Minardi is almost always having "inexperienced" drivers; they don't have the same pressure to get results in the same way as many other teams. Flavio did a great thing when he introduced Alonso to Minardi and then to let him testdrive for a year at Renault in order to get a working relationship with engineers etc. I think that was a great way and I hope that Alonso will give Trulli a hard time next year.

Sato is IMO a good driver who can surely develop but he wasn't helped at all by the Jordan team. Sato would probably have had an easier time driving this years BAR - he knew the engineers and the people around him. Now he is going back to BAR to test for a year and I would be surprised if he didn't show up as a regular BAR driver later on.

Ron Dennis didn't do himself any favours with Kimi either - I think Kimi has great potential, but another year or even two at Sauber would have made him more ready for the McLaren seat.

Button almost "killed" his career at Renault, which could have been avoided.

I don't think that youngsters should be prevented from entering F1 - but I do hope the teams will act a little more responsible in the future - after all, look at their budgets!!! I would rather hire Salo, Panis, Irvine or someone like that than someone quite unproven like Massa.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by The Fazz
Funny.

None of the World Champions from the last 2 decades or so had "F3000 Champion" on their CV.

Well considering there's only 1 F3000 champ a year, and at least 5 F3 champs, 7 Formula Renault Champs, etc, thats not surprising. The odds just arent there. How many World Champions had the CART title on their CV when they got into F1? or a Le Mans win?

Originally posted by HSJ


I respect your opinion, but I disagree. IMO it is not about some formal qualification that should coun't. In the world in general, not just racing, IMO it should be about ability. Some drivers need more time to acquire it than others, just like you are probably aware that some kids are so smart, that to force them to go through all of the grades at school is just keeping them back, demotivating them and making them bored for no good reason. Even more so at universities, it is quite silly to keep the better ones from graduating early etc.

Yeah but why should a guy who finishes third in F3 get an F1 seat before a Formula Renault AND Formula 3 champ? Thats not about ability.

[The First MH]

Originally posted by BRG
I have been unhappy for some time – certainly since Button’s arrival in F1 – about inexperienced and unqualified young drivers jumping the queue and getting F1 seats ahead of people with better credentials.

So I agree with Jacques to some extent. F1 is not meant to be a learning formula – young drivers should have learnt driving skills, technical feedback and set-up skills and of course race-craft in the lower formulas. And they should have won races and championships on the way to show that they deserved promotion to the elite of F1.

On the other hand, F1 has always had “rich kids with sponsorship” – the Yoong phenomenon is nothing new, and it is one of main reasons why the superlicence requirement was introduced. Looking back, there is a long tradition of guys who have bought a drive. But they were not all bad - after all, Niki Lauda started that way, and he did quite well!

I find the sight of Jacques moving from the young rebel into the elder statesman most entertaining. Perhaps he will soon exchange his grungy skateboarder wardrobe for formal jackets, shirts and ties. Maybe Max will give him his tailor’s number?

Agree

Also find it somewhat ironic that he will "team" up with Button next year at BAR. How timely these comments must appear to Jenson?

Flyer72

[Dudley]

None of the World Champions from the last 2 decades or so had "F3000 Champion" on their CV.

Or ever. The 18 F3000 champions have a total of 2 race wins between them (1 for Panis, 1 for Alesi)

[Dudley]

Make that 3. Forgot JPM.

[Racer Joe]

I think someone mentioned Coulthard and Barrichello being seasoned F3000 campaigners. AFAIK remember neither was looking to F3000 to forge a reputation - unlike Panis and Alesi and JPM. (But I could be talking out of my butt ) I think they were both doing it so as to keep racing but were actually linked to F1 already. A bit like Anthony Davidson right now if he were to try F3000.

But I have to say the poor result by F3000 campaigners over the years puzzles me too. Instead of being a feeder series I think it is more viewed as a "recycle bin" series for F1 potentials.