46 replies to this topic

[fullcourseyellow]

I recently bought the 1982 GP Review tape, and am fascinated by the legendary charges of John Watson from the back of the field. I was wondering why Watson was out of F-1 after 1983. Did he voluntarily retire? What could have happened to him if he had stayed at McLaren in 84 and onwards? Could he have been a World Champion?

Sorry if this has been discussed before!

[Ralliart]

I believe Wattie asked for more money than McLaren was willing to pay, talks stalled and all of a sudden Prost came on the market. Wattie subbed for Lauda when the latter injured his wrist in '85 and that was his last GP appearance. He drove sports cars after that and was invited to be the first driver to wheel the Jordan GP car. He mentioned once that driving a GP car was not only his profession but his hobby.

[deangelis86]

In the January 1984 edition of Grand Prix International, there is an extensive interview on the subject of Watson and his McLaren split.

He was negociating a deal with Lotus for 1984, but the two parties seemed to be light years away from a financial agreement....adding further fuel to the speculation that his excessive wage demands might have caused his early exit from F1.

[mikedeering]

I assume he left McLaren on reasonably good terms, since he did sub for the injured Lauda at Brands Hatch 1985.

[baggish]

I think Watson signed for Toleman for 1985. Unfortunately, Toleman had some problems with tyre supply and missed the first few races. By the time the tyres were sorted out, Watson was out of the picture (don't know why). I remember Watson as a great overtaker and was sorry his chance with Toleman was lost in these circumstances.

Jon

[fullcourseyellow]

Originally posted by baggish
I think Watson signed for Toleman for 1985. Unfortunately, Toleman had some problems with tyre supply and missed the first few races. By the time the tyres were sorted out, Watson was out of the picture (don't know why). I remember Watson as a great overtaker and was sorry his chance with Toleman was lost in these circumstances.

Jon

Watson sure was a great overtaker. I think all his victories were earned starting from far back. That 83 Long Beach win must have been a classic (having started 22nd)!!!

Question is, anyone thinks he could have become a World Champion if conditions were more favourable after 1983? He never seemed to have been in the best cars in his career.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by fullcourseyellow
Question is, anyone thinks he could have become a World Champion if conditions were more favourable after 1983? He never seemed to have been in the best cars in his career.

Definitely. He was generally faster than Lauda in 1982 and 1983. If he'd've got used to the turbos - and there is no reason why he should not have done - he could have been champ in 1984 (with Prost at a gradually less competitive Renault).

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by baggish
I think Watson signed for Toleman for 1985. Unfortunately, Toleman had some problems with tyre supply and missed the first few races. By the time the tyres were sorted out, Watson was out of the picture (don't know why). I remember Watson as a great overtaker and was sorry his chance with Toleman was lost in these circumstances.

Perhaps Pirelli wanted an Italian driver instead of Wattie? (Hence Teo Fabi got the seat.) BTW I have a 1985 entry list showing John Watson as a Toleman driver.

[Vicuna]

Wattie was set to replace Mansell at Lotus in 84.

Word has it that his girlfriend at the time, Barbro Peterson, did not want to deal with the memory of 'her' man in a black JPS car given that Ronnie had died in one 5 and a bit years earlier.

[Dudley]

I assume he left McLaren on reasonably good terms, since he did sub for the injured Lauda at Brands Hatch 1985.

Well Frentzen nearly subbed for Jordan this year so you can't really judge.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
Perhaps Pirelli wanted an Italian driver instead of Wattie? (Hence Teo Fabi got the seat.) BTW I have a 1985 entry list showing John Watson as a Toleman driver.

I am sure that was a contributing factor, as was Toleman signing Benetton as main sponsors. Benetton of course took charge of the Toleman team in 1986, and was henceforth named Benetton.

Not only Watson, but also Stefan Johansson lost out on his Toleman deal. During the Tolemans absence during early 1985 Stefan drove for Tyrrell, and then he was lucky to available when a Ferrari seat suddenly appeared on the drivers market.

[joachimvanwing]

Is the story about Watson's beard true? I heard he had a beard up untill his first F1 victory In Austria 1976. So, is it true he competed unshaved since the Great Britain GP 1973?

[maxie]

Don't think he went unshaved before his victory, otherwise his balaclava would not be long enough for him ...

As for his overtaking skills, the one lap in which he overtook three cars (Lauda, Pironi and Cheever) in Detroit '82 is definitely a classic.

[baggish]

Originally posted by joachimvanwing
Is the story about Watson's beard true? I heard he had a beard up untill his first F1 victory In Austria 1976. So, is it true he competed unshaved since the Great Britain GP 1973?

Yes, it's true. Roger Penske hated beards, and they had an arrangement that Watson would shave his off if the team won a GP. After the Austrian GP, Penske agreed to grow a beard if they won a second GP, so his chin must have been itching a little during the next race in Holland.

Jon

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by Vicuna
Wattie was set to replace Mansell at Lotus in 84.

Word has it that his girlfriend at the time, Barbro Peterson, did not want to deal with the memory of 'her' man in a black JPS car given that Ronnie had died in one 5 and a bit years earlier.

That never occured to me but it could be right - where did this word come from?

[David M. Kane]

I had not heard about the Lotus deal until this posting, could that have played a role in her unfortunate suicide I wonder? Is so what a shame!

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by fullcourseyellow


Watson sure was a great overtaker. I think all his victories were earned starting from far back. That 83 Long Beach win must have been a classic (having started 22nd)!!!

Question is, anyone thinks he could have become a World Champion if conditions were more favourable after 1983? He never seemed to have been in the best cars in his career.

Don't forget Detroit 82. Winning from 17. on the grid! I got both races on video tape - superb stuff...

1982 was his year. He had no turbo-power - but was leading the championship after a few races..... but I'm asking myself even today: What really happened during the second half of the season? Wattie managed after the brilliant first half not to score a single point in a couple of races. If he would have had only 2 more runner up finishes in the points he would have easily become world champion. And his bad luck strikes again at Hockenheim. If my memory serves me well he was at 3rd (or 4th) position when only a few laps to go his suspension collapsed. Am I right? Without this dnf he would have had the same score as Rosberg in the end? (but one win more)

Lutz

[maxie]

Actually his bad luck started at Brands Hatch when Arnoux and Patrese collided at the start line. Wattie had to take avoiding action and dropped all the way down the field. Then he collided with Chico Serra and had to retire.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Lutz G

If my memory serves me well he was at 3rd (or 4th) position when only a few laps to go his suspension collapsed. Am I right? Without this dnf he would have had the same score as Rosberg in the end? (but one win more)

Lutz

I think there was an incident like that. Was there one at Austria as well when his McLaren overheated? However, had the title race been closer Keke may have been more aggressive at Vegas and finished higher than 5th.

And remember Keke lost 6 points over the water cooled brakes fiasco - Wattie's McLaren was probably just as 'illegal' but had not been weighed because he finished outside the top 3.

[fines]

Originally posted by ensign14
And remember Keke lost 6 points over the water cooled brakes fiasco - Wattie's McLaren was probably just as 'illegal' but had not been weighed because he finished outside the top 3.

Can't recall offhand, but I believe McLaren had the brake coolant only for Long Beach. But his car was surely weighed even if he was outside the top 3 - remeber, Manfred Winkelhock and Danny Sullivan were once disqualified from 5th and 9th, respectively, because they failed the weight check!

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by maxie
Actually his bad luck started at Brands Hatch when Arnoux and Patrese collided at the start line. Wattie had to take avoiding action and dropped all the way down the field. Then he collided with Chico Serra and had to retire.

Was it really bad luck or did he tried just too hard? If my memory serves me well he went to the left on the green - that was right - but after that perhaps he tried too hard to get back to the points. Sometimes you have just to wait and see (like Lauda in Estoril 84). Could it be that Watson's weakest point was his mental side? I mean sometimes he drove like a World Champion (Detroit, Long Beach) and sometimes he was just a backmarker. Marc Surer wrote about him: "He was sort of strange - sometimes everybody thought he's the next Champion the other day he drove like my grandma".

Lutz

[ensign14]

Originally posted by fines
Can't recall offhand, but I believe McLaren had the brake coolant only for Long Beach. But his car was surely weighed even if he was outside the top 3 - remeber, Manfred Winkelhock and Danny Sullivan were once disqualified from 5th and 9th, respectively, because they failed the weight check!

Yes - didn't they bring it in for San Marino because of the hoo-ha from South Africa?

The irony with Winkelhock was that his was the exact situation the rules were meant to protect - a leak (a genuine one) had drained away his oil IIRC and under the old rules he would have been able to apply a top-up to take him back over the weight limit. And no advantage was gained because the only other classified person behind him was the other ATS! (Or was Manfred 6th out of 6? Either way, he was unlucky...)

[Milan Fistonic]

I don't believe Watson ever actually signed a contract with Toleman though he did test for them at Donington early in 1985.

When Lauda damaged his wrist at Spa in 1985 Ron Dennis tried to get Watson into the second Mclaren. Watson was on his way home from Stuttgart and had planned to drop into Spa to watch the second day's practice before heading back to England.

Permission was required from all the other teams before he could take over the McLaren and Ferrari was unwilling to accomodate the change.

[Théodore33]

Hy,

Does anyone possess a picture of John Watson driving the Toleman Hart in 1985 with Avon tyres ?
In fact does he really test it ?

Thanks

[theunions]

Originally posted by Théodore33
Does anyone possess a picture of John Watson driving the Toleman Hart in 1985 with Avon tyres ?
In fact does he really test it ?

Didn't Road & Track run a B&W overhead shot in their spring Spotter's Guide?

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Lutz G
And his bad luck strikes again at Hockenheim. If my memory serves me well he was at 3rd (or 4th) position when only a few laps to go his suspension collapsed. Am I right? Without this dnf he would have had the same score as Rosberg in the end? (but one win more)

I have no photos or films, but I have a lap by lap chart and timing. He broke his suspension at lap 36 (total 45), when he was 3rd. From lap 25 to lap 36 his time was always 1'57" (very regular!), the only one different was lap 30, 1'56"332 (his fastest). Tambay, who was leading and won, had severals 1'55", Arnoux's (second from lap 19 to the end) time was mainly about 1'56"; Rosberg's (4th behind Watson, he arrived 3rd) times were mainly 1'59".
So I think with no doubt he could have arrived 3rd on that GP.
Yes, it's true, with this result Watson would have been World Champion as he and Rosberg would have both 43 point but Watson would have one more victory, but it's difficult to say because in that case maybe Rosberg would have a different race at Las Vegas and could have arrived 4th instead of 5th (4th was Prost, 5th Rosberg, less than 3 seconds behind him)

Ciao,
Guido

[masterhit]

I seem to recall Niki Lauda saying in one of his autobiographies that Watson demanded way too much money, brought on by Lauda's mega deal at the time. I vaguely recall things being stuck at something like one and a half million dollars, down a million from his earlier demands. When Prost was available at a bargain basement price, following his sacking from Renault, there was sadly no way Watson was going to stay.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by masterhit
I seem to recall Niki Lauda saying in one of his autobiographies that Watson demanded way too much money, brought on by Lauda's mega deal at the time. I vaguely recall things being stuck at something like one and a half million dollars, down a million from his earlier demands. When Prost was available at a bargain basement price, following his sacking from Renault, there was sadly no way Watson was going to stay.

Yeah, I also recall having read something similar to this. Lauda said that actually Watson should have asked him for the money and he would have payed what John had wanted instead of driving in the same team with Prost Lauda new Prost would make his life difficult and he was right. He had to fight all season long with the Frenchman. Against Watson it would have been somewhat easier

[RTH]

List of drivers who priced themselves out of a good drive .........................

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
Against Watson it would have been somewhat easier

This is debateable - who was closer to the title in 1982? And who won more race [sic] for McLaren in 1983?

I think this is one of the great 'what ifs'...

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
Against Watson it would have been somewhat easier

At least that's what Lauda have said. IIRC Watson only had wanted a wage increase of $500 I dug out my Lauda bio to see the details:

My dear team colleague (Watson) again had the feeling that he was underpaid, above all by comparison with yours truly, and he set his sights on a pricely sum in exchange for resigning McLaren. In my view, he massively overestimated his market value and allowed himself to be manouvred into a dead-end street by his financial adviserm Nick Brittan. It was was obviously none of my business, of course, although I was obviously anxious to have John as a partner, since we got on well. Watson is a past-master at protracted negotion and biding his time, once again he was in no hurry. He felt safe, because all the other viable Formula 1 drivers had already signed their new contracts: McLaren would have fall back on him and he would cash on it.
Then, completely out of the blue, came the news that Renault had released Alain Prost. (...) Whatever the cause, the break came at an unusual moment, since most contracts are signed, sealed and delivered by November and there is no spare cockpit around. The situation was tailor-made for Ron Dennis ('Sorry, we simply can't afford you') and pick possibly the fastest driver in the World for a derisory sum. (...)
I was not happy at the prospect of a superstar in the team in exchange for the easy-going Watson. I had to play cool and act as if it were totally immaterial, but I knew deep down that I was in for a hard time. My persistence, test driving and my modest political triumphs had all played part in creating a sound basis for the new car; and I thought that someone new might come along and reap the benefits was, at first irritating. But then gradually it moivated me: Prost was someone, I had to contend with.

[gdecarli]

Lauda and Watson were teammate for three years. Here following their results:

[b]1978 - Brabham Alfa Romeo[/b]

 4. Lauda   44 points   2 victories

 6. Watson  25		  0



[b]1982 - McLaren Ford[/b]

 2. Watson  39 points   2 victories

 5. Lauda   30		  2



[b]1983 - McLaren Ford[/b]

 6. Watson  22 points   1 victory

10. Lauda   12		  0

In 1983 Lauda scored 10 points in first two races, then he was twice sixth, while Watson had one victory, two third, two fifth and one sixth... All point were scored by both drivers using Cosworth engine

I don't think it was so obvious that 1984 would be so easier for Lauda if his teammate would have been Watson rather than Prost...

Ciao,
Guido

[masterhit]

Originally posted by gdecarli
Lauda and Watson were teammate for three years. Here following their results:

[b]1978 - Brabham Alfa Romeo[/b]

 4. Lauda   44 points   2 victories

 6. Watson  25		  0



[b]1982 - McLaren Ford[/b]

 2. Watson  39 points   2 victories

 5. Lauda   30		  2



[b]1983 - McLaren Ford[/b]

 6. Watson  22 points   1 victory

10. Lauda   12		  0

In 1983 Lauda scored 10 points in first two races, then he was twice sixth, while Watson had one victory, two third, two fifth and one sixth... All point were scored by both drivers using Cosworth engine

I don't think it was so obvious that 1984 would be so easier for Lauda if his teammate would have been Watson rather than Prost...

Ciao,
Guido

Indeed in 1984 at least, it's arguable given previous form that Watson may very well have done a better job than Prost due to greater experience, familarity with the team etc.

Not that we will ever know.

[gdecarli]

Originally posted by Théodore33
Does anyone possess a picture of John Watson driving the Toleman Hart in 1985 with Avon tyres ?
In fact does he really test it ?

On Autosprint (20/1985, page 18) I found only this low quality photo:



In the enclosed article, Autosprint wrote only that Watson tested Toleman at Donington, without giving more detail (no timing, no date, no info about tyres, was this his only test?, ...).
Looking at this picture, it seems me that it had Goodyear tyres.

By the way, Benetton choose Teo Fabi because he is Italian and at that time he was very popular in U.S.A. (poleman at Indy and rookie of the year, 1983), a very important market for Benetton.
At the beginning Toleman-Benetton has enough tyres for one car only, but according to rumors they should have been able to have a second car for Watson from France GP.
I don't know why later they forgot Watson and they gave (only from Austrian GP) second car to Ghinzani...

Ciao,
Guido

[ghinzani]

Ghinzani got the drive at Pirellis behest. At that time Watson had realised the situation and was driving BMWs GTP car in the states. Moreno had also been in talks pre-season about being Johansons team mate but when it came time to choose a driver Wattie got the nod. IIRC they ran on Avons at Donington, but they also went down to Rio for some tests and altho they had engine problems (didnt every Hart in 85??) they were quick with Stefan driving - however they were given tyres down in Rio by one of the tyre companies due to the parlous state of the old ones they were running on. You can be sure the big teams were behind stopping Toleman running as they had a car which could have embarrased many of the bigger teams - Prost after following it thought it the best handling car of 85.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by ghinzani
Ghinzani got the drive at Pirellis behest.

Straight from the horse's mouth!

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by ensign14
Straight from the horse's mouth!

How did you know I was long faced today? day ruined already by the lucky cheating Kraut.

[Théodore33]

Guido,

Thanks a lot.
Terrific picture.

One more time - Thanks

[gdecarli]

Do you want Watson on Jordan? OK, here he is! (click to enlarge) :



Silverstone, Wednesday November 28th 1990: This is very first test for Jordan 911 (the first F.1 by Jordan), 20 laps long.
Driver was Watson because once in a pub, John was joking with Eddie Jordan, saying that he should have driven first Irish F.1 as he was the first Irish driver to win a F.1 GP.
At that moment, Jordan hadn't chosen his drivers yet; according to rumors he was interested to Roberto Moreno (he really drove Jordan at Monza and Estoril 1991, replacing Michael Schumacher), Martin Donnely (of course before his accident at Jerez 1990), Johnny Herbert and Betrand Gachot. The latter - with Andrea De Cesaris - was official Jordan driver at beginning of 1991 season.

Ciao,
Guido

(from Autosprint 49/1990 page 51)

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by gdecarli
Silverstone, Wednesday November 28th 1990: This is very first test for Jordan 911 (the first F.1 by Jordan), 20 laps long.

Watson had a second run in the car later at Pembrey. Here's a quote from Eddie Jordan himself which appeared in the Grand Prix Editions magazine: (Vol. 5, No.1 March 1991)

Talking about testing, November 28th last year was an important day since it was the first time the Jordan 911 had run. As if the wasn't enough for me to cope with, my old hero John Watson was at the wheel, and I have to say it gave me a lot of satisfaction. Particularly, when Gary Anderson and Trevor Foster came back a further test at Pembrey and reported the old Wattie, sorry 'young' Wattie had been flying around.

Some indication why Jordan choose Gachot for the drive:

In the end I signed Bertrand (Gachot) and he has been doing a superb job for us. Back in '87, Bertrand was our biggest rival, finishing second to Johnny Herbert in the British F3 Championship, and he greatly impressed me. (...) He's quick and he's intelligent. He speaks four languages, which is pretty annoying, since I don't know what he is saying about me when he makes calls from my office, but in terms of driving ability, there is nothing to worry about.

[Stefan Schmidt]

Maybe you like THIS

[MCS]

I have John Watson's autograph from way back. I got it myself.

It doesn't look like that.

[Stefan Schmidt]

I have got it from McLaren, after asking for a drivers autograph

[zakeriath]

Autographs in my opinion are difficult to verify, the autograph shown below was signed by John at last years Silverstone classic and is very similar to the one shown on e bay.



However I have quite a few Lauda autographs that I have obtained myself and they all vary to some degree depending on the time he had available to sign the autograph. To me the pleasure is in meeting the person and then getting the autograph and the memories there after, I see no pleasure in buying an autograph.

[Frank S]

I believe this is Long Beach, 1983:

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by zakeriath

However I have quite a few Lauda autographs that I have obtained myself and they all vary..

After his accident at the Nürburgring his autographs look different....

[MCS]

Originally posted by zakeriath
Autographs in my opinion are difficult to verify, the autograph shown below was signed by John at last years Silverstone classic and is very similar to the one shown on e bay.

Okay, it's changed then !

Probably because he's had to sign for literally thousands since I got it !!